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I disagree with "gameplay > story"

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
For most genres story is much more important for me because a good story more easily carring me through a bad game than the other way around. I'm aware I must be in the minority here but that is just how I feel.

Had huge troubles finishing Metro 2033 lately. While I can see that the game delivers pretty well in terms of gameplay i had huge problems caring about it because the story was full of holes. I didn't know what was going on 90% of the time and didn't give a shit about any of the characters. And that is usually when a game looses me.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
And I can similarly feel just as bad for people who have this kind of tunnel vision.
There's nothing 'tunnel vision' about that. Doesn't even make any sense.

I think this problem is mostly rooted in the incredibly narrow view the majority have in what constitutes a story in a video game. The standard definition seems to be this passive, pre-defined narrative written in a traditional book/film style which more often than not struggles to seamlessly weave itself together with the game in question. It's no wonder then that people are constantly going to compare game stories to said mediums and find it inherently lackluster.

Of course it's always going to be regarded as worse unless you actually embrace what sets games apart in the first place, rather than feel at odds with it (which is what a lot of these "traditional story" games do what with the ludonarrative dissonance and all) what with interactivity, random variables, social elements (ie multiplayer or roleplaying) and create an engrossing experience out of that.
This is exactly what I was talking about - this argument that video games have some inherently justifiable reason for having poor plotlines. Interactivity, choices, social elements or whatever - all contribute to the overall experience, I agree. But you do not have to sacrifice general interactivity for a good plot. There is nothing stopping a video game from being engaging at that level except bad plot writers.

The thing is, DP has a terrible story. It's the characters, the setting, the sheer overall craziness that's on offer, is the reason why some people give it a pass.
Maybe that's what people keep getting confused about when they say 'story'. Well written characters, the story telling, the setting, all things that help a great story. But they are not what makes up the story itself.
 
If I don't find the gameplay engaging, I won't play through to the conclusion of the story no matter how good it is. For me, gameplay comes first.
 
The example of Ace Attorney in the OP, it's really a visual novel right, so of course story is important there, the gameplay is just pressing 'next' and picking something from multiple choice questions etc.

In general gameplay trumps story every time for me because gameplay is what I'm here for, it's what I'm doing, it's the interactive element that defines the medium. Most video games have the story of a Saturday morning cartoon, so I'm not going to fret over which games have the best "beat the big baddie and rescue the girl/save the world from evil" storyline.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
There's nothing 'tunnel vision' about that. Doesn't even make any sense.

If you believe your analogy of a "vegetarian who goes to eat at a BBQ joint" is in any way akin to one who seeks enjoyment from stories in video games, then yes, it does make sense.

The example of Ace Attorney in the OP, it's really a visual novel right, so of course story is important there, the gameplay is just pressing 'next' and picking something from multiple choice questions etc.

Um, have you played Ace Attorney?
 

Steez

Member
Torment's battle system is merely mediocre not bad and the real game takes place in the dialogue as to shape your Nameless One, or at least your incarnation.


Eh, mediocre at best. I grew up with the Infinity Engine, but the encounter design, coupled with a more than clunky interface makes combat a chore and is considerably worse than in BG or IWD.
I love Torment as much as the next guy, but I never look forward to the next combat scenario. In fact, I try to skip as much as possible, often resorting to straight up running past enemies.

I agree that the real game takes place during conversations, but that's what most people ITT would consider story and not gameplay.

I should have elaborated.
It IS the point of a lot of games now and that's what saddens me.
Not once did I visit the arcades in my life with the purpose of having one of the games try to tell me a story. Petran79 nailed it with that Bubble Bobble picture. That's all we needed.

Arcade games are competitive in nature, so they obviously don't need a story.
 
First post nails it for me.

I feel bad for anyone who plays video games for their stories. I do hope that changes in the future. I'm not against the idea of playing a video game for the story. I just think that video game stories are horrid 99% of the time.

This is 100% how I feel. #TeamStory really should be getting their kicks elsewhere. Video games stories - barring a few exceptions that prove the rule - are utter tripe. Bad pacing, acting, character development, conclusions... Everything that makes a story good is generally sorely lacking in video games.

Gameplay is what makes the game. It's a completely unique type of tactile feedback that can satisfy like no other when done properly. A context is nice, but as others have said, it's completely secondary and it absolutely should be.
 
The main reason I play is the gameplay. If I have to control it the entire time, it better be enjoyable to control or I won't even care about progressing. It's not like a movie or a TV show where I can just sit there and wait for some kind of payoff from the story. I actually have to sit there and make that payoff happen. If it's not fun progressing then I don't even see the point in playing.

Also, if story was that important to me, I probably wouldn't even play video games because most of the stories in games aren't worth the 8+ hours you have to put in to see it. My time would be better spent using that time to take in something that actually has a good story.
 
Um, have you played Ace Attorney?
Um, absolutely. What more is there to do, a bit of touchscreen stuff looking at the 4 or 5 clues on a static background image and flipping through them in the text/multiple choice court room sections. I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying that's what a visual novel is broken down to it's basic interactive elements - therefore in the case of visual novels, I can see how story IS more important.
 

nacimento

Member
It depends on the game, Telltale games are great with mediocre gameplay while Mario games don't need special writing (even though Mario & Luigi: BiS is my favorite Mario game and a big part ofit is its story).
 

Reuenthal

Banned
It depends on the genre. Usually gameplay is more important for me but when it comes to games such as Phoenix Wright then the story is just as important if not more important. In certain games the story or the dialogue of the characters is more important than the gameplay.

In terms of numbers, the games in which gameplay>story is far bigger than the opposite. But I have no trouble enjoying games who strive for different things and succeed in doing them well.
 

PsionBolt

Member
If your game's story is more important than the gameplay, just write a book.

I like this comment. A lot of people say this from the player's perspective - "for story I would read a book" - but it's not nearly as common to think of it this way, from the developer's perspective. I think that this way is much more meaningful. The player-oriented approach is a simple statement with no room for growth; it just is what it is. Your comment, on the other hand, is a question. It's an invitation to thought. That's a really, really important distinction that I think hasn't gotten the attention it deserves in this thread.

As a creator (assuming artistic intent and not just wanting to make money), it's always necessary to ask questions about your work. Just as a poet considers the merits of choosing one word over another, just as a director ponders what the lighting and cinematography are bringing to his work, every creator has to make choices about how to best express their vision and intentions. The very first step in that process, for every creator since the beginning of time, is the choice of medium.

As a player, there is nothing wrong with enjoying stories that are delivered through imperfect shells. There is no fault in the user. But as a creator, it is absolutely a fault if your choices - choice of medium included - lead to your story falling short of what it could have been.
If a director said "the camera and scene are less important than the story", if a novelist said "the style and word choice are less important than the story", or if a musician said "the instrumentals and vocals are less important than the story" - I'll just say that I'd be worried, and that I would be quite surprised if their works met their full potential with those kinds of thoughts behind them.

I feel like you can't really classify VNs as video games.

I think this is an interesting point, too. It's quite a bold statement to say that they're entirely different mediums, but they definitely do stretch the limits of what we consider genres, given the huge fundamental differences in how they construct their narratives.

I think as it stands, video games have a few standardized story shells. (Though of course there are many games which blur these lines, and that's fantastic.)

- Kinetic novels. Basic VNs with no real input, where pressing A or left-clicking is the same as turning a page. When They Cry and Narcissu are solid examples. VNs with extremely limited interaction, such as the occasional A or B choice, are much closer to this category than the next one, at least in my mind.
- Adventure games. Often paired with VNs because of the focus on text, but significantly different in that the input required to advance the text is frequent and requires real thought. I would personally put Ace Attorney, Danganronpa, and some other titles that people tend to think of as VNs in this category instead.
- Cutscene-driven games. The player gives significant input for a while, then stops for a while. This is the largest category of games these days. Kingdom Hearts and The Last of Us are big-name examples.
- "Always-on" games. There are some titles in which significant input never ceases. Some of them are more or less removed from real stories (like Tetris), while others have a significant narrative focus. Games of the latter type often have exploration or individuality as significant parts of their narrative. Examples would be Rogue, Minecraft, or Portal.

Note that in none of these cases does "story" ever necessarily stop happening. Even in a cutscene-driven game, the gameplay segments are usually a significant contributing factor in forming the game's narrative. Still, because this is an interactive medium, I think it's useful to order thinking around the presence that interaction ("gameplay") has throughout the experience.

To tie this into the other bit, I believe that it is important not only for a creator to consider which medium best suits their ideas, but to also think about the genre. If they truly put little to no emphasis on gameplay, then it might be that they want a kinetic novel, whereas if they have strong feelings about a few light mechanics, they might want an adventure game, and so on. I can think of some titles that might have been significantly better with a different narrative structure.

As an aside, because of this line of thinking, I don't see games like the Zero Escape series as examples where story outweighs gameplay. This is because the creators made a conscious choice to fall between the adventure and cutscene-driven styles, and the rationale for that choice can be clearly understood within the context of playing the games and discovering their stories.
Personally, I get a very strong sense from those games that they were not designed in pieces, with a divide between gameplay and story, but rather as one cohesive whole. If I absolutely had to choose which I thought they valued more, I would probably choose gameplay, because both games' stories rely on a central conceit that is thoroughly and deeply rooted in their nature as games.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Um, absolutely. What more is there to do, a bit of touchscreen stuff looking at the 4 or 5 clues on a static background image and flipping through them in the text/multiple choice court room sections. I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying that's what a visual novel is broken down to it's basic interactive elements - therefore in the case of visual novels, I can see how story IS more important.

Ah, of course, then I apologize. It kind of felt like you were being reductive, though; the investigation parts of the game are a big part of it, and are very much like a typical point and click adventure game segment. I wouldn't really call the court segments devised of "multiple choice questions", but rather an elaborate puzzle that the player themselves has to unravel bit by bit, rather than the game doing it for them like a VN. I don't think the series would have the appeal it does if it were truly a VN that just required the player to press next to enjoy. Ace Attorney is much more of an adventure game than a visual novel.

A true visual novel is something like Steins;Gate, where the player really does have very little agency in what's going on.
 
The reason I can't get behind story ever being more important is that video game stories just aren't as good as other media for me. And that's fine; it's almost an inherent thing with video games considering how hard it is to have good pacing when you need to have gameplay as well. I beat TLoU for the first time this month, and while it has by far the best characters and story of any game I've played, it's not going to be on my all time favorites list because I didn't think the gameplay was that amazing. Don't get me wrong it was still a great game and the scenarios were very well designed, but I often found the movement and stealth awkward and was playing mostly for the narrative by the end.
 

spekkeh

Banned
This is exactly what I was talking about - this argument that video games have some inherently justifiable reason for having poor plotlines. Interactivity, choices, social elements or whatever - all contribute to the overall experience, I agree. But you do not have to sacrifice general interactivity for a good plot. There is nothing stopping a video game from being engaging at that level except bad plot writers.
Well in essence there is. Teleology and player autonomy are greatly at odds with the author's vision, necessitating a more shared authorship. Pacing is butchered and jumping back in time messes up with player cognition as players are striving towards future goals. FFXIII is one of the few games that started in medias res and was panned for being so linear in gameplay. I'm not saying it's inherently insolvable, as for instance Thirty Flights of Loving shows hints off, but it's still proving a difficult nut to crack.
 

ThaPhantom

Member
Its always about the gameplay first then if a game has good story or graphics its just a plus. If a game has awful, boring, or unfun mechanics how can you get through it? Putting story over gameplay messes with what the medium of video games sets out to do in the first place.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
What is your take?

I like good stories in games... but when the gameplay has an added value on the storytelling.
If you just want to make a good story, you're far better of doing a movie or TV show, as you won't be as restricted with what you can do on a narrative standpoint compared to a game.

Edit: or basically, what PsionBolt said a few posts above mine.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
This is 100% how I feel. #TeamStory really should be getting their kicks elsewhere. Video games stories - barring a few exceptions that prove the rule - are utter tripe. Bad pacing, acting, character development, conclusions... Everything that makes a story good is generally sorely lacking in video games.

As much as the stories in games can often suck, I'll never begrudge a developer for trying. It's the reason why I dislike the way people take the piss out of developers like David Cage. Whether or not he's a good storyteller, the guy is trying his best to advance the art of storytelling in games while others make no effort at all.

Games have the potential to be an incredible medium for storytelling, possibly one of the greatest of all time. That won't happen however if we piss on the people trying to make it a reality while praising the companies that play it safe.
 
Ah, sorry, that makes sense. I thought you made two different points, which is why I quoted and replied to both separately. I just didn't understand you meant for it to be a continuation of your earlier statement. 'Not to mention' implies a new argument.
Thanks for your understanding Bricky.

That's why some times i chose to pay attention to the idea that's been comunicated more than the exact words of a post. People make mistakes (speeling, grammar, factual ,etc) but if the point get's across i focus on that.

Also there's many posters for whom english is an adopted language, so it's a bit hard to tranlste one's thaughts exactly.
 

Daemul

Member
I'm not sure how one can prefer story to gameplay when the vast, VAST, majority of video game stories are complete shit. People who prefer story don't have much in the way of quality writing to appreciate, and what they can appreciate would be seen as average in other mediums like movies and books.
 

Risarovi

Banned
gameplay > story

If I wanted a story, I'd rather read a book or watch a movie. In a game, I want solid mechanics. I rarely care about character motivations, relationships, plot, or anything else. Just give me a solid game - fluidity in a dual stick shooter, good combat/lewt mechanics in an rpg, good shooting mechanics, weapon variation, enemy ai in an FPS, etc.

There are rare exceptions. TLOU being one. But few games can or will reach that level, and I don't expect nor need them to.

+1.

A game is a game. I don't want they to tell me bullshit, I want to play. If in general they relate good stories, maybe, but that is not the reality.

Even so, I would prefer books or movies. In a game, I want to play, period.
 
As long as there is story to compliment gameplay. And not just story than plays out between gameplay sections in cutscenes. Even if the story is the gameplay like a visual novel game (999 etc). Portal 2 mixes both amazingly. The Last of Us, while often praised for it's narrative, felt less connected.
 
I like good stories in games... but when the gameplay has an added value on the storytelling.
If you just want to make a good story, you're far better of doing a movie or TV show, as you won't be as restricted with what you can do on a narrative standpoint compared to a game.
i don't know about the qualitative "restricted" since some people could take issue with it XD . i do undernstand however, what you are saying. If the goal is the story and you will present it to the player in a very traditional cinematic way, then a movie is the best option.

More so, considering that some times gameplay conflicts with the story or viceversa. So making a game can potentially add inconveniences to what the creator might want to express.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
The idea of story vs gameplay isn't really fair.

I said story can be just as important above but now that I am rethinking it, that wasn't really true. At least to my experience, and what I care for. More like world building, characters and characterization, style, atmosphere, dialogue and story and so on. As seen in many adventure games or visual novels or some RPG. So it is not story alone that can be more important than gameplay in certain genres. By style it can mean visuals but not necessarily graphic quality.

Take Vampires the Masquerade. It's story is kind of mediocre but a lot of the quest substories, dialogues, its style and atmosphere and its world building are all pretty damn good. And it has some rather memorable characters.
 

Vagabundo

Member
Just played an hour of Paper Mario and I'm surprised at how much I am enjoying the story/writing; humorous, silly, breaks the fourth wall a lot. But the mechanics of the gameplay in it are excellent.

Generally though Gameplay>>Interactive Setting>>Linear Story. There are obvious exceptions, but most games should follow that rule.
 
I don't get why story and gameplay can't be both important.

In fact, I hate the half assing of story and graphics in favor of gameplay. Presentation should mean everything about a game is equally good.

A game with good gameplay but bad story/graphics/sound etc should still be criticized.

.

To me, in the end, the important is that the developer has the freedom to focus on where they want. It's so goddamn annoying to see people picking on games with different priorities with "lel not a game" comments. It's not like Platinum Games is going to evaporate if a Quantic Dream game is successful, you know?
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Take Vampires the Masquerade. It's story is kind of mediocre but a lot of the quest substories, dialogues, its style and atmosphere and its world building are all pretty damn good. And it has some rather memorable characters.

I guess in these discussions, I tend to group all of that as "story", even if it's not necessarily correct. I feel like that's what most people tend to encapsulate as "story" for those who say games don't need it but, if we're to separate those individual aspects, then there are several narrative facets to a game other than "story" I appreciate. A game like Binary Domain, for example, has a story I can't even remember, but the characters, dialogue and setting were enjoyable.
 

Draft

Member
OP is very lucky because most AAA game directors wish they were movie directors and focus very heavily on delivering the most profound, meaningful, emotional, exciting story telling possible. If a little gameplay sneaks in between the cutscenes that's alright.
 
Its always about the gameplay first then if a game has good story or graphics its just a plus. If a game has awful, boring, or unfun mechanics how can you get through it? Putting story over gameplay messes with what the medium of video games sets out to do in the first place.

Stuff like Papers Please uses that the mechanics are boring/unfun to tell the story and to flesh out the world. The War of Mine isn't a fun game, but uses its mechanics to tell the horrible story it wants to tell. Spec Ops: The Line uses the fact that you expect certain things from its very gamy and "old" gameplay and uses that to flip your expectations via its story. Passage uses a very "uninteresting" gameplay (only uses arrow keys to move) and uses it to tell a story about life in a interesting way.

I think its getting harder to say that because a game doesn't have fun mechanics, the game loses its appeal. Its all about how you're using those mechanics to make the game you want to make as good as it can.

For me, I will take interesting world, characters and story over interesting gameplay any day.
 

Nemmy

Member
.

To me, in the end, the important is that the developer has the freedom to focus on where they want. It's so goddamn annoying to see people picking on games with different priorities with "lel not a game" comments. It's not like Platinum Games is going to evaporate if a Quantic Dream game is successful, you know?

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the expression "interactive entertainment" and I admit I dearly wish it got widespread use, with "games" being a small subset of it.
Like I said in my previous post, I loved To The Moon, but I don't consider it a game as it's completely linear and player actions have absolutely zero effect on its state. And what I see as its greatest flaw are parts where it tries to be "gamey" that are plain boring and badly made. It's a great piece of entertainment that I had a blast with, but I absolutely agree with anyone saying "lel not a game" about it - except I don't consider that a bad thing. And yes, in this kind of entertainment software the story and storytelling are crucial to the experience.
 

LastNac

Member
Story takes precedence, otherwise I'm just wasting time with mechanical actions that are self-serving. It doesn't matter how good the "what" is if there is no "why."

I'll put it this way, I've never enjoyed a game with terrible story and great gameplay. I've loved the hell out of a game with great story and lackluster gameplay. Advent Rising being a perfect example.

In most cases(if not all) gameplay should be a vehicle for the story. There should be synergy between the two.
 

SSReborn

Member
Some you guys are a bit too black and white or 1-dimensional in regards to how you think about things. Games aren't judged or based upon one thing alone, it's gameplay, it's story and lore, the way you interact with the character, music and sounds, fun factor everything thrown together this is what takes games from mediocre, to good, to great in people's personal scales.

Some consider some aspects to be more important others however, just because you find that certain areas are less important to you doesn't mean that they are not important to gaming as a whole. "Story Gamers" for instance are looking for a mixture of all those aspects. Saying read a book or watch a movie doesn't help with anything because obviously those mediums lack the other aspects that they are looking for particularly the interactivity and gameplay aspects.

I like games that are story driven (typical cinematic action games, rpg's, visual novel type games) I like games that aren't as well (fighting games and some platformers) it really doesn't matter and I don't think one way is better than the other. The great thing is there are a bunch of games in either category and a bunch that fall in between both and I'm personally willing to try them all.

Also as an aside the term good gameplay is deceptive. Just because a game has "good gameplay" (whatever that is supposed to mean) doesn't mean it has a fun factor for the person who's playing it. For instance, a guy who likes action games may not like God of War because they consider it shallow. Let's say this person is a big Bayonetta fan thinks it's the best the genre has to offer they may invite their friend over who also seems to like action games, he may give it to him to play and get him to understand it and despite all that he doesn't like it and prefers God of War. I think a situation like this come down to a person's personal fun factor and if we are actually trying to distill what makes a game worth playing it's this more than anything else.
 

Yagharek

Member
Gameplay = Story. Both are needed.

I think the test is whether a story could be told equally well in any other medium. If it can, then its not inherently necessary to be attached to a game.

Similarly, the gameplay must be good enough that the story is unnecessary. Otherwise it runs the risk of being pointless.

The obvious result of this is that the best scenario is a game with great gameplay with a narrative that could not be told any other way. The worst scenario is shit gameplay with a redundant story.

Great gameplay can redeem a shit story, but not vice-versa. Put simply: i disagree with the OP.
 

Xpliskin

Member
Sooooo those saying story > gameplay all prefer telltale's games over everything else right ?

Like, the wolf among us is a better game than say mordor (which has a generic story)
 

Xaero Gravity

NEXT LEVEL lame™
I completely agree, and it's the main reason I don't enjoy Nintendo games as much as I used to. When I was younger it was the exact opposite, but this year I'm actively trying to put that notion behind me and it's way harder than I was expecting.


Edit: That's not to say I can't find enjoyment from a gameplay focused game. Galaxy 2 for example is incredible to me, yet I couldn't care less about it's plot.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Rrrrrrrrrreally? Care to show me your super scientific paper ellaborating on that?

The arrogance of some people...

So how did any of you enjoy games before stories existed in them?

Space Invaders?
Pac-man?
Frogger?
Galaga?
Mario?
Punch Out?

Did these games need a story did they?

Sorry, a good story is a bonus. Gameplay should always be the number 1 priority.
 

kiguel182

Member
Sooooo those saying story > gameplay all prefer telltale's games over everything else right ?

Like, the wolf among us is a better game than say mordor (which has a generic story)

I probably enjoyed the first season of Walking Dead way more than most other games. So yeah.
 
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