OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Wikipedia says it in the first paragraph and the link on the part you are talking about does not exist.
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I think the Atari Jaguar could easily be a success
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
Wikipedia says it in the first paragraph and the link on the part you are talking about does not exist.
MrCunningham
Member
As impressive as the Lynx was in 1989, it really can't compare to the overall performance of the GBA. We're comparing a handheld with a 32bit CPU to a handheld with an 8-bit CPU and two 16bit co-processors (one sound, the other graphics). The Lynx was an impressive display of engineering for its day, with a lot of neat features like built in sprite scaling and a math engine. In some ways it could do things that the Genesis SNES couldn't without the aide of some addition co-processors in the cartridge. Epyx made some awesome technology.
But you can't compare it to the 32bit CPU in the GBA, the ARM7 CPU outclasses the chipset in the Lynx in clockspeed and floating point performance. The GBA's CPU is comparable to the ARM60 in the Panasonic 3DO, probably better.
These are just tech demos, but:
The Metal Gear Solid hangar recreated in the GBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G27pO38Z3l0
Resident Evil 2 tech demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=026LfsBEh00
SystemUser
Member
Fighting games were a top genre when the Jaguar was released. The Jaguar controller doesn't have the right buttons for the top arcade fighting franchises. AvP and Doom were okay, but FPS games were not a big on console yet. The controller wasn't anything special for racing games. I am not really sure when genre would really benefit from a phone pad. Maybe it could be useful fast menu navigation in turn based RPGs.
Version 3.0
Member
Late to the thread, but sorry, the answer is no. The Jaguar had no shot.
I bought one in May (I think) of 1994, and I still have and love the Jag. But no. Atari didn't have the cash to launch a successful system. They couldn't support the system themselves, couldn't market it properly, couldn't get it supported by others, especially the important Japanese publishers, and so on.
But mostly, just like the 3DO, the Jaguar got in a little too early for decent 3D graphics. And 3D turned out to be the key to that generation of consoles. Even had the business side of things been up to snuff, the Jaguar couldn't keep up with the Playstation and Saturn, much less the N64.
I bought one in May (I think) of 1994, and I still have and love the Jag. But no. Atari didn't have the cash to launch a successful system. They couldn't support the system themselves, couldn't market it properly, couldn't get it supported by others, especially the important Japanese publishers, and so on.
But mostly, just like the 3DO, the Jaguar got in a little too early for decent 3D graphics. And 3D turned out to be the key to that generation of consoles. Even had the business side of things been up to snuff, the Jaguar couldn't keep up with the Playstation and Saturn, much less the N64.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
I see you're full of crap.
Crash N Burn reviewed mixed, and it had people talking before it came out. I like this revision where people played games that got them excited before they released.
Total eclipse came out in 1994, and I didn't even list that came.
Putt Putt was a best selling series and it appealed to kids, whether you WANT it to or not. It was a big deal.
The you randomly bring up Mad Dog Mccree and sum up the 3DO ignoring the other games in it's 400 game library.
Also you're last part is full of crap as well. A lot of games released on the PSX/Sat ran and could run on the 3DO before 97. And that goes double for the Saturn which wasn't even that far off the 3DOs 3D. There were quite a few of ports on 3DO and games on 3DO that were on PSX and to a lesser extend the Saturn.
It seems more like you don't like the system and won't give it any credit. A lot of games on the Saturn and PSX with exceptions of course, did not get to the point of likely being not possible or very compromising on the 3DO intil 97, 98 for SAT, at those points pretty much at least 30-40% of games launched would likely not run or would be completely botched on the 3DO, but before that uh, no.
I mean your acting as if I'm saying all PSX/SAt games at launch sucked. Never said that, just the majority of games were not graphically impressive and I don't see how one could argue against that. Quite a few of Sat/PSX games from 1994-1996 were pretty bad looking and have age poorly, and then there are games like Crash that were not that common until after that year was over.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
I want to see where this is. Because I don't see it, sounds made up to me.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Again as I said, a lot of and mostly only the racing games show any real gap. But if not many GBA games in 3D look like that.
The GBA devs never really took advantage of the hardware. Most games you got where like Crash huge adventure, battle network, Wario 4, Doom levels, eecks vs. Server levels. Which for the most part the Lynx could do.
Now of course the GBA is more powerful, but with what was released the Lynx could run with the GBA in graphics. With exceptions of course. But oddly there aren't that many.
The DS did a better job of having devs utilize it's hardware on a wider scale.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Uh no the LINK does not exist, as a reference for that statement.
Other sites that have that quote got it from the wikipedia article, which the reference connected to it leads to a page that does not exist.
Of course not that it matters too much, the Jaguar selling 200k is still extremely bad for a console that was $50 for almost a year.
Alebrije
Member
3DO died becuase the business model no the games. They licensed the hardware but Philips and Sanyo did no wanted to lose money when selling a console.
3DO had great games:
Need for Speed
Street Figther
Road Rash
Luciennes Quest
Killing Time
Star Control 2
Blade Force
Total Eclipse
D
Return fire
Among others
Saddly most people remember it for they movie style games that were trash....
diffusionx
Gold Member
Because gamers care that a poor looking game was "supposed" to come out in 1993 and didn't? You're a funny guy.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Most Gamers didn't know about i-war and went and brought AVP which they did know. Along with other 1884 games that were actually advertised.
You are literally failing and failing over and over. Making up your own rules.
Well, the 3DO was a Japanese console (Panasonic) so it did have some Japanese support - even some JP-only games released for it. But the Jaguar... aside from a Raiden port I can't name any Japanese-developed titles for it. Honestly, the Jaguar has one of the least appealing libraries for me, with the exceptions of the CD-I and Amiga CD32. At least 32x got a few good arcade ports.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Well I think that's AVGN fault. Oddly that's only like 2% of the library.
nkarafo
Member
Surely there are many GBA games that the lynx could do if pushed. But we are talking about games that pushed both systems here. Even disregarding 3D racing games, Doom GBA is far ahead anything the Lynx could do, even if it was pushed to 100% of it's limits. I'm not even sure if the Lynx could handle Wolfenstein 3D.
The Lynx was a state of the art handheld in 1989, sure. More powerful than the Game Gear for sure. And some of it's capabilities exceeded what the 16 bit consoles could do. But saying that there was just a small difference with the GBA or that the Lynx could do close to what the GBA can, sounds insane to me.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
They didn't need japanese games to sell. Look at the Genesis top sellers in NA and Europe. They had no TP from any side.
Also odd you mentioned CD-I that sold 1 million consoles. Well CD-I players anyway. (CD-I is a disc format)
Crayon
Member
I'm on the side of there being a generational gap between lynx and gba. In screenshots, they may be somewhat comparable. In the hands however, gba games are snappy and smooth, where comparable Lynx games are sluggish.
Take Stun Runner vs Mario Kart Advance, for instance. Kind-of-in-the-ballpark on visuals, but Stun Runner feels very heavy for the Lynx while MKA feels effortless for the GBA.
Take Stun Runner vs Mario Kart Advance, for instance. Kind-of-in-the-ballpark on visuals, but Stun Runner feels very heavy for the Lynx while MKA feels effortless for the GBA.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
I didin't say small, the gap you implied is massive. WHich I don't see.
Even if we only focuses on PUSHING consoles, it was indeed mostly racing games. Also I can easily see the Lynx playing Doom i'm not sure why you are acting like the GBA port is so awesome.
Anyway I'm not saying that the GBA was not more powerful, it was by like 3x or more. But the issue is that very few devs utilized it. Not even for 2D games in many areas. It's why I said that the Lynx could run with it, because it could. Devs on the GBA for the most part did not take advantage of the capabilities of the GBA.
Now as for pure graphics yes, the Lynx loses hands down you are right. No Argument there, Driv3r looks like crap but the Lynx can't run it. A 360 movement 3D game is not possible on the lynx without sacrifices. A GTA type game? Impossible.
diffusionx
Gold Member
There is literally nothing to fail about. I was trying to talk about why Jaguar didn't succeed, which is the point of this thread. You seem to think it had an amazing library of great games while the PSX was unimpressive for years. Needless to say, I don't agree. I think there are good reasons why the Jaguar failed and that largely has to due with the game library, the relatively poor 3D tech compared to the systems that came later, and the Atari name. You haven't put forth any thoughts other than the Jaguar had a great library and the other systems sucked or nobody really was looking forward to them. Which would only make sense in a world where the Jag was a massive hit.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
This is like saying the N64 didn't succeed because of quest 64 it's a flawed nitpicking argument.
Also no I didn't seem anything you literally pulled your own made up story out your behind. Nothing was even implied close to what you are saying.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
I brought up early big games in its library. The system's games were doing horribly in reviews. When Putt Putt is your best reviewed game in the early months, you've got problems.
3DO was nowhere close to PS One and Saturn in 3D capability. Sure it's all ugly today, but back then, the difference was big.
That's why most of the shared games were Sprite based, outside of Total Eclipse.
I'm not giving the system credit because it deserves none. There were a few ok games, mostly thanks to EA, but nothing worth paying that crazy asking price.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
It really wasn't.
The vast majority of Sat and PSX games from 1994 to the 3DO's death could run on the 3DO, and the biggest shakers didn't come until 1996.
There were ads saying a 3DO version of a game ran better than the PSX version.
Were there games that would have problems on the 3DO? Yes, were there many of them? NO. Also those years were the best selling for the 3DO as well right to 97, so if the difference was that big then I guess people didn't care. ALso I have no idea why you are pretending Saturn had good 3D that can compare with the PSX from 1994-1996.
Also at launch yes, it was hard to justify the $499 or $599 price tags yes. I will agree with that, never said that wasn't the case. That's a different subject though.
nkarafo
Member
This is where i disagree the most. I can't see how you see that the Lynx is capable of running Doom. Even the SNES + FX chip barely managed a shitty looking, poor man's version, with no textures on ceiling/floor, huge input lag and running at what, 9 fps? And i could still feel my SNES screaming in pain as it was running it. So how can you say Lynx could run a serviceable version, like at all?
There is no way the Lynx could handle Doom, at best i could argue about Wolfenstein 3D and that's with some skepticism.
Let's just agree to disagree about this one.
Crayon
Member
I'm going to show up for this, too. 3DO was far short of saturn in 3D. Compare Shockwave on 3DO to Panzer Dragoon 1 and it's clear. Even low effort ports from 3DO such as Need For Speed and Off-World Interceptor would runs consistently and significantly faster on Saturn.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Nope I can't, why? Because the SNES by itself, is weaker than the Lynx for 3D. And the FX chip increases the capabilities on the SNES while using resources from the base system.
Did you look at the video I linked you to? I can easily see the Lynx running that pixelated low fps version of doom the GBA is running. Have looked at GBA doom recently?
I think the OP reads as he was talking now. OP should have worded it better like "could have *been*" . But we all know what he meant, no?
nkarafo
Member
Yes i did. And i have played every single port of Doom in existence. Because that's my kind of game. And there was nothing in the video you posted that comes even remotely close to the worst looking ports.
I think you aren't exactly aware about what the Doom engine is about. If you did, you wouldn't claim Lynx can do it. There is absolutely nothing in Lynx's library that indicates even a 5 fps version of Doom is possible.
Unless of course you make a new Doom game, with a new, inferior engine like Wolfenstein's. Heck, i haven't even seen anything in Lynx that comes close to Wolfenstein either...
Yes, that's what i wanted to say. I hope a Mod fixes it.
Outside of sports games and MK, what western Genesis games were top sellers? And as for quality, in hindsight, you'd find very few lists of the best Genesis games that feature mostly western games. Funny that people are still desperate to write out Japan's contribution to gaming even back then.
Crayon
Member
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Comparing a First Person flight FMV shooter to Panzer Dragoon?
I mean at least do comparisons that make sense.
Also there's still no argument here, how many games looked like Panzer Dragoon in 1995 on the Sat? Not many.
How many people played Panzer Dragoon and not those worse looking games in 1995? Not many.
Again the majority of SAT/PSX games from 1994-1996 were on par or could run on the 3DO without too much sacrifice. I again do not see why people are arguing against this. The 3DO was a system that could compete with both of them in terms of general graphics in it's library for the first few years of both systems.
If I said later THEN I would get the arguments. But that's not the case.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Barely enough:
Kept the original screen resolution.
I could do the same thing you did by choosing bad GBA games and good Lynx games.
Again most games on the GBA did nt look much better than Lynx games because most devs did not utilize the hardware like the Vrally and Driv3r guys did. I don't understand how that's something one can argue?
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
I said for U.S. and Europe not WW.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
You just said the Lynx could not run Doom better than a system that alone, has a noticeable disadvantage in 3D, with a FX chip, that takes up more resources, still running the game badly.
What?
Even though I played with the Jag and 3DO, they feel like some weird alternate history that time forgot. Something that didn't exist, but did.
But ya, Atari had very little brand equity with anyone who grew up with Nintendo or Sega. Most of us pictured primitive games from the '70s when we hard that name.
AvP was pretty good, though.
But ya, Atari had very little brand equity with anyone who grew up with Nintendo or Sega. Most of us pictured primitive games from the '70s when we hard that name.
AvP was pretty good, though.
BattleMonkey
Member
N64 had much better Japanese support than 3DO and Jaguar, and most of all, it had the powerhouse Nintendo itself making it's own software for it. 3DO and Jaguar didn't have their own development studios with a name behind them. They essentially were depending on 3rd party support.
nkarafo
Member
It's easy to understand really. Simply, there is no proof of what you say. You say that the Lynx is capable of running the Doom engine but provide no proof, like something that indicates the system could do it. The best thing i have seen so far is a tech demo of an engine similar to Wolf 3D, but still inferior compared to other versions.
Show me a tech demo or game that has something in it that indicates it's capable of running the Doom engine and we can discuss. But if you are making such a ridiculous claim and don't even have some proof, what you expect people to do?
A SNES+FX Chip is still well beyond of what a Lynx can do.
I can't believe i'm arguing about this.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Atari had dev studios.
WIth that said the N64, had some decent japanese support, but it was not as good as the PSx, also again, the N64 lack of large WTPS hurt it pretty bad as well. People keep thinking WTPS had no impact when that only happened with the NES. Since they weren't on consoles.
Sort of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ibCVW7tvk
I've taken games in the same genre.
Feel free to take any commercial 2D game released for Lynx you want.
Crayon
Member
Panzer Dragoon 1 was not particularly impressive, even at the time. Still was smooth running and put most 3D 3DO games to shame.
Virtua Fighter Remix makes good use of the saturn to draw just two 3d characters with textures and spin a few backgrounds at 60fps. This early saturn game would have been nigh impossible on 3DO.
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
That video had games showing smooth 3D graphics and polygons that you seem to be ignoring for the sake of ignoring. I believe your claim is more ridiculous if you think THIS can't run on the lynx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TGoI6_AqBg
when THESE can: https://youtu.be/PMTF6OVsvxg
I find it really hard to believe. Also why did you cut part of my quote out of context?
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
Ok that's great but no one said "I'm going to buy Panzer dragoon on saturn look at the graphics" in any notable number, while the rest of the games selling on the saturn could easily run on the 3DO.
AGain you don't seem to be getting my argument. The 3Do could compete with the PSX/SAt because msot of the games on both those systems from 1994 laucn to 1996 could all run on the 3DO, some games looked worse which yes, is the devs fault but still doesn't change the game output.
You can mentioned Panzer Dragoon or other games but those were few and far between. Duriong those years anyway. Once end of 1996 and 97 came around then at that point a large amount of games could not run on 3DO or would have to be compromised heavily.
nkarafo
Member
OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun
Banned
OK yeah if you think a pixelated sluggish version of doom can't run on the Lynx, ad yet had all the games in that video running I'm afraid unless you break it down, that more unbelievable that what you are saying.
nkarafo
Member
Here is a freaking TECH DEMO of something close to Wolfenstein 3D running on a Lynx, like someone posted it already a few posts ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ibCVW7tvk
This is a TECH DEMO. This is probably the best you can get on your Lynx as far as first person shooters go, with levels that have a floor, ceiling and walls. And still looks worse than most other ports.
Now, if you can't see the difference between the wolfenstein engine (that the Lynx can barely handle) and the Doom engine, well, then i'm afraid that you just don't know what you are talking about.