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I think the Atari Jaguar could easily be a success

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Yes the hardware was up to par. The controller was not "limited" at all (what does this even mean?)
Care to elaborate on the hardware then? How can you quantify that?

There is absolutely no indication that its 3D capabilities were anywhere near what you could achieve on PlayStation or Saturn. Many of the system's games were flat shaded and built with very simple geometry yet still barely managed to reach a playable frame-rate. Many of its most well known games run very VERY poorly. AvP is a slideshow, Tempest 2000 ranges from 60fps when nothing is happening to 15fps, Checkered Flag runs at like 10-15fps most of the time, it's 3D fighters were all slide shows, Hover Strike is literally in the single digits, etc. Could more have been done with the system in time? Perhaps, but its complicated design and bottlenecks really held it back. Even the ports of Doom and Wolf 3D, which are praised, have issues. Doom runs in the low-res mode but the lack of music is the real issue - the DSP chip which usually handles music was used for other calculations and they didn't have the resources to run music during the game. Wolf 3D also runs at a very inconsistent frame-rate - if you place the camera near a wall, the frame-rate drops into the teens while picking up as soon as you move away.

Then you have 2D games. The best looking 2D game on the system is likely Rayman - but it's also missing visuals compared to the PC, PSX, and Saturn versions. Namely, backgrounds are reduced to a single layer without the more complex parallax scrolling. That's not even touching on the audio quality. It's shocking to me that 16-bit ports, such as Pitfall The Mayan Adventure, ran at 30fps on the Jaguar while the SNES and Genesis versions were a full 60fps. That should not have been a difficult port. What about the various other 2D games running at low frame-rate? 60fps was very rare on Jaguar. At least Super Burnout looks pretty slick and does run smoothly.

Quite frankly, I cannot think of a single game which demonstrates the potential of the system. PlayStation and Saturn demonstrated an immediate advantage even with their very basic launch games. You weren't going to see any 3D, texture mapped 60fps games on the Jaguar as you did on those platforms.

Then we have audio - which was almost universally poor in most games. Digital audio was horribly compressed, the music was of poor quality, and it ate into available resources. It's a problem also faced by Nintendo 64, really, but the Jag didn't have advantages elsewhere to counter it.

As for the controller, well, perhaps that's a bit harsh. I find it to be quite comfortable but the keypad isn't really that useful and the lack of shoulder buttons would become a problem for 3D games (pre-analog). The six button pad exists, and is rare, but it's still not a great pad. The d-pad is mediocre compared to the competition. But hey, at least you could reliably press the '0' button to enable or disable music in most games.

I think it's a fascinating machine but it was hastily assembled. The hardware design is a mess to design for while the actual industrial design is equally poor. The video cable literally attaches to exposed circuit board on the back - who thought that was a good idea?

The GBA can barely outdo the Lynx. Which is just sad. Took Nintendo until the DS to start having "decent" portable hardware.
This is hugely untrue as well. The GBA basically matches the Super NES in terms of capabilities (outside of audio). The Lynx was impressive for its day but ultimately limited. The biggest issue with the Lynx that I've found is that most of its games run at abysmally slow frame-rates. I own about 20 games for Lynx and I don't think a single one of them runs at a full 60fps. At best you get 30 but it's often much MUCH worse. It was neat seeing things like parallax scrolling in an early handheld, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near as capable as GameBoy Advance.

If you want to talk about 3D? Well, perhaps the Lynx has an advantage there but I'm not really sure if that's an advantage worth having as 3D is poor on both platforms. For its time, what the Lynx could do was insane but it doesn't hold up and the GBA focusing on very high quality 2D is its strength. It could deliver beautiful 60fps 2D games with loads of parallax scrolling, detailed sprites, and a large color palette.

...but that's expected since GBA was released so much later. The Lynx was very ahead of its time and I'm happy to have a pair BUT it still struggled with performance to a disappointing degree. Most GameBoy games at the time at least ran at 60fps as did many Game Gear titles.

I can't help but feel that Atari simply didn't place the proper premium on a high frame-rate - 2D games running at 30fps and 3D games often at 15fps or worse on both the Jag and the Lynx.

Also, the low resolution look of GBA Doom is very similar to the Jaguar version which also runs in much lower resolution (equivalent to the PC version's low detail setting).

I brought up early big games in its library. The system's games were doing horribly in reviews. When Putt Putt is your best reviewed game in the early months, you've got problems.

3DO was nowhere close to PS One and Saturn in 3D capability. Sure it's all ugly today, but back then, the difference was big.
That's why most of the shared games were Sprite based, outside of Total Eclipse.

I'm not giving the system credit because it deserves none. There were a few ok games, mostly thanks to EA, but nothing worth paying that crazy asking price.
This is correct. 3DO was also very limited in terms of 3D and most of its games also ran at very poor frame-rates just like the Jag. These two systems were nowhere near the Saturn and PlayStation in terms of capabilities.

There isn't a single retail game or homebrew demo for any of them that can even match the best launch games let alone later titles released for those platforms.
 

jstripes

Banned
OK yeah if you think a pixelated sluggish version of doom can't run on the Lynx, ad yet had all the games in that video running I'm afraid unless you break it down, that more unbelievable that what you are saying.

There's no way Doom would have run on the Lynx.

Wolf 3D? Yes. Doom? Hell to the no.

I can't believe i'm arguing about this.

It's like we've travelled back to 1993.
 
Here is a freaking TECH DEMO of something close to Wolfenstein 3D running on a Lynx, like someone posted it already a few posts ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ibCVW7tvk

This is a TECH DEMO. This is probably the best you can get on your Lynx as far as first person shooters go, with levels that have a floor, ceiling and walls.

Now, if you can't see the difference between the wolfenstein engine 9that the Lynx can barely handle, and the Doom engine, well, then i'm afraid that you just don't know what you are talking about.

The issue is that there are games that look and run better than that. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees that. Now it just seems you don't think it can run Doom because there aren't FPS on the Lynx. That's not how it works. That doesn't suddenly make all those other impressive 3D games weaker.
 

Crayon

Member
AGain you don't seem to be getting my argument. The 3Do could compete with the PSX/SAt because msot of the games on both those systems from 1994 launch to 1996 could all run on the 3DO, some games looked worse which yes, is the devs fault but still doesn't change the game output.

It is an interesting argument and I see what you are saying but the gap was just too big for a world with a $299 playstation. Even the $399 saturn looked like a better buy considering just capability and price. 3DO really was unimpressive for the price at a time when audiences where getting older and became more aware of a console's capabilities.
 

nkarafo

Member
That's not how it works. That doesn't suddenly make all those other impressive 3D games weaker.
Yes it does. None of these games come close to what the Doom engine is capable of. In those games you show, you get some flat surfaces, rotation, sprite scaling, etc. Impressive compared to the Game Gear, yes. But comparing those with the freaking Doom engine is the most insane thing i have read this month in GAF.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
It is an interesting argument and I see what you are saying but the gap was just too big for a world with a $299 playstation. Even the $399 saturn looked like a better buy considering just capability and price. 3DO really was unimpressive for the price at a time when audiences where getting older and became more aware of a console's capabilities.
You could see it immediately in the ports from 3DO to those platforms. Massive improvements to performance and visual quality.

I feel as if this "OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun" fellow simply has an insanely high tolerance for very VERY VERY low frame-rates. That's the only thing that could explain his reasoning.

When playing two player Club Drive on the Jag, you can actually ruin your opponent by simply driving up to a traffic cone which puts such a stress on the system that the frame-rate drops to about 1-2fps.

I just realized I have a GBA, Saturn and Lynx sitting in this very room.
Heh, I have eight GBAs, three Saturns, two Lynx consoles, a Jag and a 3DO here as well. :D
 
If you want to talk about 3D? Well, perhaps the Lynx has an advantage there but I'm not really sure if that's an advantage worth having as 3D is poor on both platforms. For its time, what the Lynx could do was insane but it doesn't hold up and the GBA focusing on very high quality 2D is its strength. It could deliver beautiful 60fps 2D games with loads of parallax scrolling, detailed sprites, and a large color palette.

...but that's expected since GBA was released so much later. The Lynx was very ahead of its time and I'm happy to have a pair BUT it still struggled with performance to a disappointing degree. Most GameBoy games at the time at least ran at 60fps as did many Game Gear titles.

I can't help but feel that Atari simply didn't place the proper premium on a high frame-rate - 2D games running at 30fps and 3D games often at 15fps or worse on both the Jag and the Lynx.

Also, the low resolution look of GBA Doom is very similar to the Jaguar version which also runs in much lower resolution (equivalent to the PC version's low detail setting).

Ok first, The Jaguar is bottlenecked, I've said this already, and the main consoles I compare with the PSx/Sat is the 3Do not the Jaguar. Because the Jaguar, while powerful on paper, has a screwed up architecture.

But even then for 1993-1994 the Jaguar wasn't really obsolete until the end of 1994. It was still an impressive cheap 3D system.

Now with that out of the way, yes the GBA is more capable than the Lynx. Issues is most games don't take advantage of that, which is why i said if you take their general libraries the Lynx could compete.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the GBA is worse than the lynx. The GBA could do thinks the Lynx could not do. New chips for a good price could be slapped in the GBA to do 3x what the Lynx could do.

As for framerate, on the Lynx this made sense as it was pushing more than what the GB and GG did. Even with its build.

As for the Jag, that would be the 68k being required to boot and run the system/ It bottle necks the graphics and the framerate because you don't have full access tot he RISCs. Hence why for a lot of devs they had to go for graphics over framerate, such as AvP.

The Jaguar was a mistake all around. However, the Lynx, there are games that run well, but the more demanding games that would have trouble on the GG let alone the gameboy, makes sense to have a framerate drop. While the lynx has better specs, what they used to build the system was still not fully polished. It was already amazing enough you could get stun runner on a handheld to run at anything playable.
 

Crayon

Member
When playing two player Club Drive on the Jag, you can actually ruin your opponent by simply driving up to a traffic cone which puts such a stress on the system that the frame-rate drops to about 1-2fps.

That actually sounds kind of fun. Like yanking on the next guy's wheel in super sprint.
 

jstripes

Banned
The issue is that there are games that look and run better than that. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees that. Now it just seems you don't think it can run Doom because there aren't FPS on the Lynx. That's not how it works. That doesn't suddenly make all those other impressive 3D games weaker.

Just because you can scale some sprites doesn't mean you can do the math required to display the more-complex environments in Doom. That's not how it works.
 
It is an interesting argument and I see what you are saying but the gap was just too big for a world with a $299 playstation. Even the $399 saturn looked like a better buy considering just capability and price. 3DO really was unimpressive for the price at a time when audiences where getting older and became more aware of a console's capabilities.

The 3DO was like $150 with packed in games by the end of the saturns and PSX first year outside japan. The 3DO was pretty good value.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Do you know of any good 60fps Lynx games? I'm very curious to see one. I've purchased a number of games hoping that I might have one but, alas, I've yet to discover one.

I do think toning down visual quality for a high frame-rate is the way to go but, I won't deny the fact that seeing something like Stun Runner on a portable console was very very impressive. California Games is also great on Lynx. Shadow of the Beast is fascinating as well with excellent parallax.
 
You could see it immediately in the ports from 3DO to those platforms. Massive improvements to performance and visual quality.

I feel as if this "OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun" fellow simply has an insanely high tolerance for very VERY VERY low frame-rates. That's the only thing that could explain his reasoning.

When playing two player Club Drive on the Jag, you can actually ruin your opponent by simply driving up to a traffic cone which puts such a stress on the system that the frame-rate drops to about 1-2fps.


Heh, I have eight GBAs, three Saturns, two Lynx consoles, a Jag and a 3DO here as well. :D

Uh the 3DO is not the jaguar, which is what I'm comparing most games ont eh SAt/PSX to, because most games on thsoe two systems between 1994-1996 could run on the 3DO. Which had good framerates for lots of games. I never said the Jaguar.
 
Do you know of any good 60fps Lynx games? I'm very curious to see one. I've purchased a number of games hoping that I might have one but, alas, I've yet to discover one.

I do think toning down visual quality for a high frame-rate is the way to go but, I won't deny the fact that seeing something like Stun Runner on a portable console was very very impressive. California Games is also great on Lynx. Shadow of the Beast is fascinating as well with excellent parallax.

No device outside computers could run what the lynx had back then at 60fps like Stun Runner for example.

Possibly Neo-Geo for the 2D games is an exception.
 
Well, the 3DO was a Japanese console (Panasonic) so it did have some Japanese support - even some JP-only games released for it. But the Jaguar... aside from a Raiden port I can't name any Japanese-developed titles for it. Honestly, the Jaguar has one of the least appealing libraries for me, with the exceptions of the CD-I and Amiga CD32. At least 32x got a few good arcade ports.


3DO was an American company, but they licensed their hardware out to multiple vendors (kind of like AMD's and Nvidia's current videocard model) . Panasonic, Sanyo and Goldstar (a Korean company) all developed versions of the 3DO. The Panasonic machines still had a presence in Japan, but it was quickly subsided by the Sony Playstation and Sega Saturn.

Unless of course you make a new Doom game, with a new, inferior engine like Wolfenstein's. Heck, i haven't even seen anything in Lynx that comes close to Wolfenstein either...

There is a pretty decent homebrew port of Wolf 3D called Luchsenstein 3D for the Lynx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqdrsSp08JE
But it doesn't quite compare to the official port for the GBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZUG7Fj-vfY

Do you know of any good 60fps Lynx games? I'm very curious to see one. I've purchased a number of games hoping that I might have one but, alas, I've yet to discover one.

Roadblasters maybe?
 

Rival

Gold Member
To this day I still feel bad about making my dad buy this piece of shit system for me. The controller if you've never played with it is so much worse than it looks. And the biggest mistake I've ever made with regards to gaming is getting Trevor McFur. God what a piece of shit.
 
Oh look! 12 polygons!

Let me know how those 12 polygons run on the SNES. Hint, not well.

But SNES with weaker 3D capabilities, can Run Doom with an Chip, which taxes the system and makes the port run like crap.

But the Lynx can't run it? Even with lower resolution and the same Pixels as the blurry GBA version?

What?

DO you realize how what you say makes zero sense yet?
 

nkarafo

Member
Do you mean the wireframe tank game? Or the "FPS" games?

Wireframes don't quite count as polygons, and those FPS games aren't polygon either, that's called ray-casting. They're also very janky.
The only game of those that seem to use polygons is that flying game. I think those pyramids are polygons. But that's less polygons than Starfox SNES even.

The rest are either vector graphics or sprites.


Let me know how those 12 polygons run on the SNES. Hint, not well.

But SNES with weaker 3D capabilities, can Run Doom with an Chip, which taxes the system and makes the port run like crap.

But the Lynx can't run it? Even with lower resolution and the same Pixels as the blurry GBA version?

What?

DO you realize how what you say makes zero sense yet?
Starfox uses more polygons than those pyramids in the video.

The SNES+FX Chip has more capabilities than the Lynx in 3D graphics.

The Lynx is mostly known for it's sprite scaling capabilities not it's 3D polygon capabilities. I mean, seriously

You really, REALLY, don't know what you are talking about here.
 

jstripes

Banned
Also, "polygons" on the GameBoy, if we're gonna scrape the bottom of the barrel:

dhQdpU0.gif


bRYh5cc.jpg
 
Do you mean the wireframe tank game? Or the "FPS" games?

Wireframes don't quite count as polygons, and those FPS games aren't polygon either, that's called ray-casting. They're also very janky.

Seems like you were ignoring the polygons.

Doom can run on an FX chip barely on the SNES, Should have no issues running on Lynx.

The "meh" Doom Ports consist of Sprites and scaling along with polygon objects, usually around the room.

I don't see how the Lynx would have a problem with that. The Lynx and the SNES with F have advantages and disadvantages against each other, so if it can run on the SNES I can't see how it can't run on the Lynx.
 
The only game of those that seem to use polygons is that flying game. I think those pyramids are polygons. But that's less polygons than Starfox SNES even.

The rest are either vector graphics or sprites.



Starfox uses more polygons than those pyramids in the video.

The SNES+FX Chip has more capabilities than the Lynx in 3D graphics.

The Lynx is mostly known for it's sprite scaling capabilities not it's 3D polygon capabilities. I mean, seriously

You really, REALLY, don't know what you are talking about here.

No you don't imo.

The SNES with FX is stronger than the Lynx but they aren't far apart.

There are ports of doom that run like Blakestone instead of the PC version everyone likes.

The Lynx should be able to run a compromised version of Doom. If you disagree we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
3DO was an American company, but they licensed their hardware out to multiple vendors (kind of like AMD's and Nvidia's current videocard model) . Panasonic, Sanyo and Goldstar (a Korean company) all developed versions of the 3DO. The Panasonic machines still had a presence in Japan, but it was quickly subsided by the Sony Playstation and Sega Saturn.



There is a pretty decent homebrew port of Wolf 3D called Luchsenstein 3D for the Lynx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqdrsSp08JE
But it doesn't quite compare to the official port for the GBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZUG7Fj-vfY



Roadblasters maybe?

Hmmm.

Also, "polygons" on the GameBoy, if we're gonna scrape the bottom of the barrel:

dhQdpU0.gif


bRYh5cc.jpg

Except the Lynx polygons are miles ahead and this comparison is desperation.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Uh the 3DO is not the jaguar, which is what I'm comparing most games ont eh SAt/PSX to, because most games on thsoe two systems between 1994-1996 could run on the 3DO. Which had good framerates for lots of games. I never said the Jaguar.
I would say 3DO has performance that is often worse than the Jag. When I finally picked one up a few years back, it was rather surprising to me just how choppy most 3DO games are.

2D and 3D games alike all run exceptionally slow on 3DO. I still cannot fathom how Killing Time was released. It seriously runs worse than Quake on a 486. It's generally 3-8fps at most.

Except the Lynx polygons are miles ahead and this comparison is desperation.
I agree but I think seeing Faceball on GameBoy kinda proves a valuable point.

Most GameBoy games were coded within the limitations of the system and, as a result, run very smoothly. You can go back to older GB games and the majority run at 60 frames per second. You get some slowdown in more advanced games, sure, but the general experience is quite good. Faceball, though? It runs badly and looks ugly today. It was an interesting experiment but it uses the hardware in the wrong way which ultimately results in a very dated game.

So while the games in general do look less technically impressive on GB, they are tailored to run as smoothly as possible on the platform.

The approach taken with Lynx is wrong, I feel, in that they were pushing visuals at the expense of performance. Something which ultimately dates the games and makes it difficult to return to them.

It's all about working within the confines of your platform. There's no point in doing advanced tricks if the results run slowly.

Game Gear is kind of a halfway house. It does operate many games at 60fps but it struggles to keep them there. Many GG games suffer from pretty serious slowdown. The best looking and running Game Gear games, though, do look more impressive in my eyes than the Lynx, though.
 

Crayon

Member
2D and 3D games alike all run exceptionally slow on 3DO. I still cannot fathom how Killing Time was released. It seriously runs worse than Quake on a 486. It's generally 3-8fps at most.

Meanwhile, quake on saturn relatively screams.
 

Glowsquid

Member
There isn't a single retail game or homebrew demo for any of them that can even match the best launch games let alone later titles released for those platforms.

For the 3DO, I think Blade Force and Starfighter (both late games admitelly) look moderatly impressive, especially Starfighter with its terrain deformation and huge scale. Its PS1/Saturn port runs and look like dogshit in comparison, though this is more than likely due to incompetent coding.
 

nkarafo

Member
I see some people haven't played the worst "ports" of doom, no wonder you have no idea what you're talking about.
Well lets see:

You don't know what the Doom engine actually is and what is capable of. You can't tell the difference between polygons and vector graphics or sprite scaling. And i'm the one who doesn't know what he is talking about?

If you want so much to argue with me on this, AT LEAST educate yourself and read about the FPS engines in the early/mid 90's. Read about their differences and capabilities. And when you do, come back and tell us that the Lynx can run the Doom engine.

Spoiler alert: You won't because you will realize how ridiculous your posts were and you will want them to be forgotten.
 

Peltz

Member
No, I mean there wasn't a keypad controller which had a numpad and was comfortable at the same time. Intellivision, Colecovision, Atari 5200, Atari Jaguar... they all had shitty controllers.
I'd say that the touch screen on the DS was an evolution of this concept. It made inventory management very intuitive.
 
For the 3DO, I think Blade Force and Starfighter (both late games admitelly) look moderatly impressive, especially Starfighter with its terrain deformation and huge scale. Its PS1/Saturn port runs and look like dogshit in comparison.

Not to mention the best launch games is irrelevant when over half your library runs worse than the best 3DO games or on par for the first few years of your life.

This is the same forum (if not mistaken) that will say the DC can compete with PS2 ignoring the later half of the its life span and games, because they do early game comparisons.
 
Well lets see:

You don't know what the Doom engine actually is and what is capable of. You can't tell the difference between polygons and vector graphics or sprite scaling. And i'm the one who doesn't know what he is talking about?

If you want so much to argue with me on this, AT LEAST educate yourself and read about the FPS engines in the early/mid 90's. Read about their differences and capabilities. And when you do, come back and tell us that the Lynx can run the Doom engine.

Spoiler alert: You won't because you will realize how ridiculous your posts were and you will want them to be forgotten.

No you are making an assumption by acting like I said something I never said, which is trash. Don't do that.

I know how DOom works, Doom can easily run on the Lynx.

The blurry pixel chugging mess that is the GBA version at a lower resolution and running similar to the 3DO port is completely possible. Sure, there will be some texture sacrifices and what not but it seems clearly doable based on the games it can do and the Wolfenstein prototype.

You're acting like I said the Lynx would run doom better than the GBA, I'm just arguing it can run doom.
 

nkarafo

Member
No you are making an assumption by acting like I said something I never said, which is trash. Don't do that.

I know how DOom works, Doom can easily run on the Lynx.

The blurry pixel chugging mess that is the GBA version at a lower resolution and running similar to the 3DO port is completely possible. Sure, there will be some texture sacrifices and what not but it seems clearly doable based on the games it can do and the Wolfenstein prototype.

You're acting like I said the Lynx would run doom better than the GBA, I'm just arguing it can run doom.
First of all, 3DO Doom has the worst frame rate of all ports and runs even slower than the SNES version at times. GBA one is a lot smoother than that, EVEN if you chose dynamic lighting in the options. So, another proof that you didn't play one of these ports.

Secondly, the bolded part is a ridiculous claim. Ridiculous claims need some strong proof to be taken seriously.

And lastly, if there was a Lynx Doom, it would be lower resolution than the SNES version, with more sacrifices to the graphics, running at 2 FPS at best. If that's what "it can run doom" means to you then ok.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
For the 3DO, I think Blade Force and Starfighter (both late games admitelly) look moderatly impressive, especially Starfighter with its terrain deformation and huge scale. Its PS1/Saturn port runs and look like dogshit in comparison, though this is more than likely due to incompetent coding.
It certainly is due to poor coding, though really, the PSX version doesn't actually run any slower - it just looks different (and worse).

There were plenty of early 3D PSX games running at 60fps, though, which is something we never really saw on 3DO.

My main issue with 3DO remains its video output - it's terrible. Upscaling everything to 480i was a very VERY bad idea and it destroys image quality. It's the one thing that kinda ruins the system due to the way it handles the scaling. Whether on a real CRT or using a scaler, the end result is garbled mess rather than clean pixels. It should output at 240p, really.

First of all, 3DO Doom runs even slower than the SNES version at times
Well, to be fair, that was ported in just a few months due to a deal gone wrong. There was a story floating around here recently about it. It was a mess. Both the 3DO and Saturn ports of Doom could very easily be much much better.
 

nkarafo

Member
Well, to be fair, that was ported in just a few months due to a deal gone wrong. There was a story floating around here recently about it. It was a mess. Both the 3DO and Saturn ports of Doom could very easily be much much better.
Yes, i know the story.

But in the end, GBA Doom is smoother. It's faster than the botched 3DO version or Saturn and SNES versions. It's even faster if you go with static lighting. It's perfectly playable.
 
First of all, 3DO Doom has the worst frame rate of all ports and runs even slower than the SNES version at times. GBA one is a lot smoother than that, EVEN if you chose dynamic lighting in the options. So, another proof that you didn't play one of these ports.

Secondly, the bolded part is a ridiculous claim. Ridiculous claims need some strong proof to be taken seriously.

And lastly, if there was a Lynx Doom, it would be lower resolution than the SNES version, with more sacrifices to the graphics, running at 2 FPS at best. If that's what "it can run doom" means to you then ok.

See no I played the ports. You refuse to read and isntead make your own words, which is starting to be pathetic.

My argument has been the Lynx can run DOOM not that the Lynx could run doom better than the GBA. Get that through your thick head.

The 3DO running worse than the SNES version but still a playeble port is what I am talking about. The lynx should be easily able to run around the 3DO fps of Doom with the GBA blurred and pixeled graphics easily.
 
Well....

No. It can't.

Yes it can.

The fact wolfenstein is even a prototype that seems to work actually helps my point.

3Do doom with GBA like graphics, at a lower resolution should be possible on the lynx. Especially since the SNES and 3DO ports aren't that far apart even though the 3DO is much more powerful than the SNES, and the SNES itself can't run doom without an FX chip that BARELY runs it.

I see no reason why it can't run Doom. But if you think logic doesn't work here then you we can agree to disagree.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Yes, i know the story.

But in the end, GBA Doom is smoother. It's faster than the botched 3DO version or Saturn and SNES versions. It's even faster if you go with static lighting. It's perfectly playable.
Well, yes, I do agree there. The GBA version is not half bad.

Yes it can.

The fact wolfenstein is even a prototype that seems to work actually helps my point.
I don't think you appreciate just how much of a leap Doom was over Wolf. The requirements are dramatically higher. The 4mhz 8-bit CPU just couldn't keep up with Doom.

Also keep in mind that Lynx was limited to 16 colors per line, which could be exploited in some cases, but it would not enable enough colors to even properly display Doom (which uses a 256 color simultaneous mode).

The resolution of Lynx is actually comparable GBA version of Doom, though. Lynx is only 160x102 while GBA is 240x160. The original GameBoy was 160x144 - so even higher than Lynx. :\ Game Gear could also display many more colors than the Lynx simultaneously.
 
The fact that you can't see the difference between Wolfenstein's engine and Doom's is funny, considering so many posts pointing out to you that there is actually a HUMONGOUS difference between the two.

I never said there wasn't much difference. You have omitted my posts and put words I never said in my mouth. Again, how about not using crappy tactics.

SNES can't run doom, needs FX chips to BARELY run doom better than the garbage 3DO port that is equal to a low end computer that can manage to run it, and you don't think a console with higher graphics capabilities for 3D, than the BASE SNES, can't run a Doom came running at the speed of the 3DO, with pixel graphics and blur equal or a bit worse than the GBA version?

Literally makes zero sense. Looka t the 3D game son the Jaguar from what's in the video I showed you to steel talons, and the sprite scaling (which is also mandatory to run doom along with 3D) and ytou don't think it can run doom?

Again there's zero logic imo in what you are saying. Putting words in my mouth won't help you.
 
Well, yes, I do agree there. The GBA version is not half bad.


I don't think you appreciate just how much of a leap Doom was over Wolf. The requirements are dramatically higher. The 4mhz 8-bit CPU just couldn't keep up with Doom.

Also keep in mind that Lynx was limited to 16 colors per line, which could be exploited in some cases, but it would not enable enough colors to even properly display Doom (which uses a 256 color simultaneous mode).

The resolution of Lynx is actually comparable GBA version of Doom, though. Lynx is only 160x102 while GBA is 240x160. The original GameBoy was 160x144 - so even higher than Lynx. :\ Game Gear could also display many more colors than the Lynx simultaneously.

See above.
 
The approach taken with Lynx is wrong, I feel, in that they were pushing visuals at the expense of performance. Something which ultimately dates the games and makes it difficult to return to them.

I kind of agree with you, even though I do thing the Lynx hardware is great, I feel like it was being pushed in the wrong direction some times. Take a look at the home brew game Zaku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bjkg4Lnypw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buq7DJMXM4U And it really shows how the Lynx can handle some huge sprites with smooth scrolling and paralax with little to no issue. Kinda makes me wish there were more sidescrollers for the handheld like this. I think when the hardware is used right for this machine the results do look pretty impressive.


Game Gear is kind of a halfway house. It does operate many games at 60fps but it struggles to keep them there. Many GG games suffer from pretty serious slowdown. The best looking and running Game Gear games, though, do look more impressive in my eyes than the Lynx, though.

The Game Gear saw a lot of direct Master System ports, and I find that the Master System ports are less taxing on the hardware because most of those games were designed to work within the confines on the original hardware they were designed for. But sometimes you would get original games like Gunstar Heroes (well it's a port, but I mean original in that it was designed for only the Game Gear) , and while it is quite impressive the game suffers from too much slowdown for trying to do too much. But then we get some really nice games like the GG Shinobi that are designed specifically for the handheld, but try not to push the hardware more than it should. I also find that a lot of GG originals have some really lovely colour palettes (just like the Shinobi example) because they take full advantage of that 4096 colour palette.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I never said there wasn't much difference. You have omitted my posts and put words I never said in my mouth. Again, how about not using crappy tactics.

SNES can't run doom, needs FX chips to BARELY run doom better than the garbage 3DO port that is equal to a low end computer that can manage to run it, and you don't think a console with higher graphics capabilities for 3D, than the BASE SNES, can't run a Doom came running at the speed of the 3DO, with pixel graphics and blur equal or a bit worse than the GBA version?

Literally makes zero sense. Looka t the 3D game son the Jaguar from what's in the video I showed you to steel talons, and the sprite scaling (which is also mandatory to run doom along with 3D) and ytou don't think it can run doom?

Again there's zero logic imo in what you are saying. Putting words in my mouth won't help you.
One important note - the Snes version of Doom was not using the Doom engine at all. It's a unique version of the game crafted for the system. Note how floors and ceilings have no textures as well.

The Lynx is less capable than those machines by a wide margin, operates at a very low resolution, and has a huge limitation on colors.

Some home brew Doom lookalike could probably be made on Lynx but it would run very slow, lack features, and operate with few colors making it difficult to capture the look of the artwork.
 
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