oh god youre serious
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If fighting games want to be mainstream esports, they need less fanservice
- Thread starter DrArchon
- Start date
oh god youre serious
Hmm...
That's bull, media aimed at women does feature attractive males and there's often a focus on their looks. Heck, not even media aimed at women, but media aimed at everyone, like Marvel movies. Or... again, Dead or Alive, lol (DOA, Tekken, SC, and KOF are way more balanced in this sense, SFV is particularly crappy about this).
Here's something to think about, by the way - women feel empowered because of many things (other than flashing your ass for you).
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Women can make their own choices, yes, but Cammy isn't a woman. She's a game character, a mass of textures and polygons, designed by a company.
She doesn't decide anything for herself.
Many sports decide on appropriate dress codes, even varying event by event and location by location. Having a game conform to that isn't censorship, as the root game is still available in an unaltered form.
Having more modest outfits for both sexes that can be used on the more "family friendly" venues is perfectly fine. In the end, the game is just a product, and sometimes, you have to tailor those to fit certain audiences.
Chingachgook
Banned
Ok this is not an easy conversation to have, but it should be had, for the minimum sake of explication for all of us reading.
But I'm going to call you out a bit, nothing personal, all GAF'ers are awesome and so are all parents. However discussion is good, and it always useful for us all to explore these issues.
First good for you listening to your son and family.
However in a family like mine, where ART is king, and freedom of expression is cherished as a high freedom in America, I taught all my kids that the human body is beautiful and there are many ways to express it's beauty.
For example my daughter is a dancer, and to be honest, as a Dad, and as a man, I was uncomfortable with the outfits they wear sometimes, or the gyration movements dancers do on stage. And were talking 8 year olds, 12 years olds the entire age spectrum. And as I said I'm not advocating for no-hold-bars ART. However just because a few people are offended, that's their problem. I was offended at first at some of the dances, but I did'nt know dance, and started to understand the ART.
My son draws, and I can see him getting better and better, am I to stop him and say, don't draw your women beautiful, or dont draw you men powerful. What would have happened to our renascence paintings if we taught not to draw the human provocatively?
Is it so hard to teach a child that something on TV is ART, and just for fun. I mean I'm the parent, if my kid is uncomfortable with something, that's what parents do, they talk understanding to their kids. It's ART and it's not done in a unreasonable manner. It's for entertainment and fun! I hope others would talk to their kids about ART as in the vast scheme of things its such a benign thing like drawings.
As I said, awesome you listened to you kids, good for you.
It's a tuff discussion, between me, you and others. And it's ok to have different opionions, we live in America and tolerating a different opinion is the hallmark of great Americans.
So I totally respect your option, hope you respect mine.
Hopefully this post helps others figure out their position on the subject.
W-were you even around for the reaction Ryu got for his beard and shirtlessness?
Chingachgook
Banned
LOL, I agree with you, not saying men aren't unreasonably made in VG, or that women dont have any visualization stimulus. Who would suggest such nonesense? I'm just pointing out the historical and science that suggest men have a little-bit-more in the visual-stimulation area. And of course it's a case by case basis, however on full aggregate, visualization leans towards men. How much more is debatable, and case-by-case can be unique.
Wizard level?
You keep making an argument for sexualized characters having a place in fighting games. Now, can you explain why there's no place for non-sexualized characters? Is it bad art if you make characters like Hilde (SC), Makoto (SF), Chizuru (KOF), Whip (KOF), Hokuto (SF), Kasumi (KOF), Xiangfei (KOF), Otane (Power Instinct), Riptor (KI), etc.? I just don't see how sticking to one philosophy (gurl has to be hawt lol big bare boobs) is somehow artistically superior to a wide variety of designs.
Spoiler: Riptor is not a vehicle to sell overpriced bikini DLC.
I'm confused by your argument. are you saying that someone who thinks that sexualized costumes have a place in fighting games is also saying that there isn't a place for non-sexualized ones?
tbf, there have been studies that do show that straight-men do have a more intense sexual reaction to visual stimuli than straight-women (which doesn't just include breasts and other female sexual characteristics, but also male sexual features as well)
which i think was the poster's point... i think
I want to question this part of your comment since i don't have am issue with the rest.
where is the line?
does a female character inherently have "no choice" b/c they are created?
at which point when do we draw any line? If characterization isn't it, is it our own personal boundaries of what is "allowed" and what isn't?
Yes, because we're talking about how females in SF just need to be eyecandy as opposed to males (please follow the discussion I'm having with him).
If I meditate on the meaning and nuance of booby jiggling and panty shots in fighting games long enough, I just might make it.
Basketball
Member
I will never understand the hot ryu meme
He was shirtless in sf4 minus the beard I think .... and if that's all it takes to get people hooting then what do you think happens when you take some fem chars and give them butt/thigh/boob/face/graphical improvements.
and you're a straight male
Personally when I see Chun or Mika's super or Laura's win/intro I'm like damn she looks pretty cool not omg look at her she is attractive ..unbelievably hot and that is embrassing.
But when I see sfv Birdie or Abigail .. that is what I call embrassing
Then again ugly/sexy and what is embrassing are highly subjective
remember the embrassing part. People throw that word around like it's fact in a lot in these types of anti LadySexy threads.
it honestly feels like a cop-out saying at this point.
Its the same as when people throw around juvenile like is some hot-take and that they know what "mature" is.
Caipirinha
Member
I don't really think it's a problem so long as there is a variety of costumes, some being less sexual. If hypersexuality is part of the history of fighting games then that's fine, it's not a crime against fucking humanity or anything, but it should be applied equally to male and female characters.
The men in SF are often just as disproportionate and scantily clad as the females. You could argue that all of the males in the game promote a totally unrealistic physique that encourages steroid abuse for example.
My issue is with characters like Laura who are totally reduced to nothing but a sex object in all of their costumes.
It's one thing to have a sexy alt or at least have an alt that reflect a characters lore but is also sexy, Laura's costumes are just a variety of minimal ass and tit coverage.
I find her case particularly annoying because Inpractice BJJ and whilst her fighting style isn't remotely accurate to BJJ she is at least the first character representing the sport in Street Fighter, and it's a sport popular with women. I would really like for her to have the option of a standard non-sexual Gi so that she has some option of being taken seriously in an image sense.
The men in SF are often just as disproportionate and scantily clad as the females. You could argue that all of the males in the game promote a totally unrealistic physique that encourages steroid abuse for example.
My issue is with characters like Laura who are totally reduced to nothing but a sex object in all of their costumes.
It's one thing to have a sexy alt or at least have an alt that reflect a characters lore but is also sexy, Laura's costumes are just a variety of minimal ass and tit coverage.
I find her case particularly annoying because Inpractice BJJ and whilst her fighting style isn't remotely accurate to BJJ she is at least the first character representing the sport in Street Fighter, and it's a sport popular with women. I would really like for her to have the option of a standard non-sexual Gi so that she has some option of being taken seriously in an image sense.
Because beards are hot and can add to the look? He became a daddy. People are the same way about Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth and love them with a beard.
No. This is a list of female characters in SFV without skimpy, sexy outfits:
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On the male side, we pretty much only have thong Urien who of course got a suit. And Zangief? Literally everyone else is showing less skin that literally any random UFC fighter, or boxer. And again, it's not only skin - it's also poses, camera angles, even special moves - there's not a single male SF character that revolves around being a hot dude (maybe Vega? Who even got a shirt this time around - those Puritan Americans censoring everything!).
Not even that. Even if it's true, it's quite dumb to go from "men are more visually stimulated" to "fighting-themed video games should only feature sexual (female) characters". It's downright dumb.
NormalFish
Banned
Peer reviewed research, please.
Absolutely. It just irks me when someone says "proven scientifically" when they clearly don't have a tenth of a clue what the words they're typing mean.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
Why is it called fan service? Can't we just call it cheap sexualized pandering?
Tru
Because they're often the same thing.
That is pure bullshit straight from the era when women were thought to not have sexuality and that men couldn't control their penises (aka raping everyone without consequence).
Theonik
Member
Sure, but you blanket accused people of sexism, to even be able to do that, you'd have to prove people do not wish male characters to be treated in this way, frankly I don't care. Do you think ESPN requested the change because the outfit was sexist or because buttocks were on display? Of course it is the latter and if you wish to solve your perceived gripe your goal shouldn't be to try and get digital buttocks to be removed from games anyway. But just for the sake of argument, what kind of actuons do you think ESPN has been taking to tackle sexism in their outlet specifically, especially considering its prevalence in sport?
While I agree with you, females should be better represented in video games I do think it's strange to do it with street fighter, all the characters are cartoons like just like superhero comics (which also don't represent women well). But I thought the original post was about bringing esports to main stream media....I find it a little strange to be looking at a fighting game which has men beating up women which I find more offensive than bikini outfits (domestic violence is a bigger problem than nudity but society is weird)
Kind of common in martial arts tournaments and wrestling and stuff like those.
Attack You
Member
I feel like if all Fighting games needed to do to reach the viewing masses was show some restraint, Virtua Fighter would be a million times better off than it is right now. This argument is a distraction. What's really offensive in the esports scene at the moment is the miniscule payout. Nintendo and Bamco need to do better.
Those characters are not SFV characters, you know
We're the ones bargaining for at least some non-pandering designs, not the other way around.Chingachgook
Banned
Folks can be irked all they want but the "scientific" evidence of men being the more stimulated gender by visualization is empirical and widely accepted.
Here is just one article and peer reviewed: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739403/
Also you can find countless articles on the subject.
And seriously, do we need SCIENTIFIC data to tell us the obvious.
Men like pretty women, and women like being pretty. Or perhaps we should resurrect Einstein to tell us the obvious?
Regardless, back to the point if Games, an art form produced for entertainment should be subjugated to USA or other western societal norms.
I get it, we just lay-down and do what Disney/ESPN tell us too. Or we lay down for the vocal overtly-purist who feel seeing Cammy's Behind ruins their kids, or speaks to huge dip in morality. Geez can we recognize overeating when we see it? It's just a game, it's just drawing, it's just REASONABLE-ART, but we can't talk about it in our society and grow understanding about Art is sometimes just for entertainment, fun and games? I almost feel like the communal I.Q. In Art in the states has really taken a dive...? We have to demonize it, and make it a bad thing... Or be complacent about it, not caring, ya know art and games are supposed to make you feel. And sometimes it might not always make you feel good, or mad, sad, or confused or serendipity, thank God for those things, as it adds color to our life... Hope people stop trying to white-wash everything, lets have some fun, and teach others how to have fun too! Or we can stop this outrageous BAD costume... Ya know shooting people in a video game is a bad thing Too, we can stop that... Ya know Grand Teft Auto is a bad thing too, we can stop that... ya know Metallica and that devil music is a bad thing too... etc. etc. etc. And yes some of those things have been on ESPN I think even Metallica was on Disney once! And poor those Nintendo kids with Bayonetta... Ruined for life.
SFV in it's entirety right now is family friendly, and if a family can't get past some of the design choices from a different culture, well then perhaps they should not be playing a culturally diverse game in the first place. They can always go and play PONG to avoid any issues.
I mean, you really can't see anything from Bayonetta. Bayonetta is even more covered up than Cammy, lol. Same for Samus. I don't even think anyone's victory poses really got shown either since they would do cut aways showing the players, or going to commentators showing play by plays waiting for the set up of the next players.
If anything, we all do the Bayo Disney jokes about the children for laughs.
If anything, we all do the Bayo Disney jokes about the children for laughs.
Is that complicated to understand that some people would like to play characters who are better representations of women that are not embarrassing?
Again, as people already explained many times before, t's not about being "prudish" or anything like that. It's not about being afraid of T&A. It's just that we'd like to play female characters that aren't automatically sexually pandering.
I mean, if we take SFV and we look at the male characters, which one are sexualized and were designed with that kind of intention? Well, none. Female characters on the other hand, a lot of them are (clothes, camera angles).
Why does Guile, who is a military, have pants while Cammy is in a leotard, for example? Why would people be angry if she had pants? Is her ass that important for them? Is her ass that iconic because it's part of her design? I mean, Capcom changed Ken and Vega's design and nobody was against it, right?
As I said, I'm not against sexy characters at all, of course they can exist but a better balance is needed. We need more female characters such as Makoto from SF, for instance. As a woman, I would like to have the option to play female characters that are as badass as male characters and not sexually pandering. Is it too much to ask?
Anyway, I'm just repeating what other people have already said and explained better than I do. I don't think some take their time to read and understand each argument, this isn't the first time people have that conversation and it goes nowhere. It's always us being "prudish" and wanting all women to have burkas.
Again, as people already explained many times before, t's not about being "prudish" or anything like that. It's not about being afraid of T&A. It's just that we'd like to play female characters that aren't automatically sexually pandering.
I mean, if we take SFV and we look at the male characters, which one are sexualized and were designed with that kind of intention? Well, none. Female characters on the other hand, a lot of them are (clothes, camera angles).
Why does Guile, who is a military, have pants while Cammy is in a leotard, for example? Why would people be angry if she had pants? Is her ass that important for them? Is her ass that iconic because it's part of her design? I mean, Capcom changed Ken and Vega's design and nobody was against it, right?
As I said, I'm not against sexy characters at all, of course they can exist but a better balance is needed. We need more female characters such as Makoto from SF, for instance. As a woman, I would like to have the option to play female characters that are as badass as male characters and not sexually pandering. Is it too much to ask?
Anyway, I'm just repeating what other people have already said and explained better than I do. I don't think some take their time to read and understand each argument, this isn't the first time people have that conversation and it goes nowhere. It's always us being "prudish" and wanting all women to have burkas.
I would love this design of Cammy that was used in Final Fight: Streetwise. She's so cute in more casual stuff!
Theonik
Member
Developers have given you tons of costumes to pick from you know. This isn't about being given choice this is about wanting to enforce one's views on others.
E: Since I'm now out of this train I can expand more on this.
People are usually not against people being offered more options, or against the notion that male characters should be getting the same treatment.
E: Since I'm now out of this train I can expand more on this.
People are usually not against people being offered more options, or against the notion that male characters should be getting the same treatment.
Yep, she looks very cool and I don't understand why Capcom don't give this outfit as an option, at least. Is it her only costume with pants in the series?
Hoya Destroyer
Member
You might call the stuff I like "embarrassing", but I'd probably call the stuff you like "boring" or "unattractive". In the end, I guess its up to developers to decide what demographic they chase for their games, and to cater to them.
I get it. You dont like sexualized females in your games. I get it, because I feel the same way about sexualized males. Capcom isnt making thong Urien or battle Costume Ed for guys like me. Not with this level of sexualization...
Im largely indifferent to Hot Ryu or Geif. I can see why people who are sexually attracted to men like them, but I dont see them in that light. I will accept that there are significantly more examples of sexualized females in SFV than there are of sexualized males. Though I do think males are more attracted to fighting games, because of the violence they offer, so devs cater to us more.
I think Cammy is primarily there for people (like me) who like seeing sexy girls. I wont deny that. She is one of the most popular SF characters and Im confident that popularity is largely due to her sex appeal. I think if you put pants on her, you lessen her sex appeal and people wont like her design as much. Im sure I've seen people wish for shirtless Vega too. Ugly Ken (with the short hair) is virtually a meme now. Im also sure some of those people who wanted improvements to those characters, did so because they would find them sexier, with those changes.
I've also seen people say they dont want to play SFV in front of their kids or other family members etc, and I get that too. A costume filter option would be a great idea to ensure that the user doesnt have to look at stuff that they dont want to. It wouldnt work in 2D fighters or at tournaments, but it'd be good for home situations. I dont think it'd be hard for devs to implement either.
Refreshment.01
Member
Looking things at this level, what about intergender violence?
Male and female characters been physically violent against each other which is quite a serious problem in many societies. What ESPN or tournament organizers do about this message?
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
It's weird seeing Cammy smile, but I love it. I wish this was the alternative as opposed to the frilly dress since this outfit represents who she is and what she's about. That's really the only thing that irked me about the forced costume change.
Pretty sure none of the men ever had destructible clothing in Art of Fighting, with that having been limited to the women (Yuri and King). I believe that said destructibility is still a factor for those same two AoF representatives in KoF XIV.
Because pandering is already implied, regardless of whether it's of a sexualized or innocuous nature. I'm not too sure why some people think that the term is something that anyone hides behind as a euphemism (though I suppose it's simply that offense is taken with it being a catch-all, rather than a more damning descriptor being reserved for the former).
-Amon-
Member
And what about violence to the Elder ?
Rabid Dwarf 76
Member
Totally agree.
Developers can do whatever they want, of course. It's their decision. But I don't know, SF is a very well-known fighting game series and only catering to people who appreciate sexualized women, well I think it's a shame. At some point, let's say I kinda accepted that fact, but I won't stop feeling bothered by these kind of stuff lol
I get it. You dont like sexualized females in your games. I get it, because I feel the same way about sexualized males. Capcom isnt making thong Urien or battle Costume Ed for guys like me. Not with this level of sexualization...
Im largely indifferent to Hot Ryu or Geif. I can see why people who are sexually attracted to men like them, but I dont see them in that light. I will accept that there are significantly more examples of sexualized females in SFV than there are of sexualized males. Though I do think males are more attracted to fighting games, because of the violence they offer, so devs cater to us more.
Urien and Ed (and I admit I like his Battle Costume lol) show skin, that's for sure, but I think they still aren't as much sexualized as female characters. There aren't awkward camera angle on their ass, abs, crotch, etc. Hot Ryu and Gief weren't designed with the intention to sexualize them, but I get that people are attracted to them, I mean, it's perfectly possible to be attracted by a character that is not sexualized (and we know that fandoms sexualize everything lol). But male characters in general are rarely sexualized in fighting games, compared to female characters. I talked about BlazBlue earlier for example and even if I like BlazBlue, the majority of female characters' designs make me cringe, but yeah okay, I get who they want to cater to, I guess. But I think it's still bullshit that the female characters are automatically the one who are sexualized. I get why, but. Heh.
To be honest, I'm not bothered by characters such as Bayonetta (I actually like her a lot) because it's in her personality, and she's over the top and fun. Morrigan in Darkstalkers is a succubus, she's sexy and it works. I guess Juri kinda works too because of her innuendos sometimes lol. There are characters who use their sex appeal as a weapon. And I don't think Cammy is one of them, but she's still sexualized.
The problem is 80% of the time, we're not getting both. If we're lucky, we get something that looks as good as Chun's Evo costume from last year. The default is Mika's shitty bullshit; something a robot outputs as being "sexy to humans" when it's just the fabric cut out of the naughty bits on an outfit.
I liken it to the difference between Sf4 Juri and Sf5 Juri. SF4 Juri's outfit is still provocative, but it looks like a piece of fashion. It's not purely reliant on skinship, but it is reliant on her body type. SF5 Juri's initial intent was "LOOK AT THESE TITS YOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!" and then they walked back from that and changed the color scheme, but it's still very "YOYOYOYOYOYOYOYO LOOK AT THESE TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITS!"
Capcom can do better. They just aren't. Other companies are consistently doing better, even when they do have characters who are designed solely to be sexually appealing or titillating.
::Sigh:: there's so much good concept art locked up in that shitty tire fire of a game.
I mean, real talk, that really didn't have anything to do with it. We have ESPN selling hate with McGregor vs Mayweather, having a field day with Vick shit talking Capernick about being a race traitor, talking down to Venus Williams about being a car accident that wasn't her fault but still needing to pay the family of her assailant because "it's the right thing to do."
If anyone thinks that Cammy's outfit was going to stop this train, they're drunk. ESPN doesn't care that much, if anything they make more money off the controversy. What we need to do is continue the conversation about why the default for almost every female character in a fighting game is some faux-sexy pandering bullshit, even when there's official character designs that have them looking respectable while still attractive.
Like, for really real. We can have a happy medium between this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRHi9oyMXqE
and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmlHpn9wMrM
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't know. I mean I thought it was fairly clear from the onset that esports was just a different lens to view what has been an ongoing conversation in the industry by providing a frame of reference for why more sets of eyes are going to be seeing this content. The idea that ESPN making one request in and of itself is some sort of gamechanger is a disingenuous framing of the conversation. The idea that ESPN striking outfit choices in consecutive years does however highlight a concern people have had for quite some time.