mugurumakensei
Member
vita's biggest region would be Japan if it follows PSP.
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IGN Rumor: Xbox 3 GPU ~= AMD 6670, Wii U ~5x current gen, Xbox 3 ~6x, Dev Kits August
- Thread starter NateDrake
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This. The Xbox is basically more about MS cockblocking Sony from creating a living room PC environment than video games.
More power doesn't automatically create higher budgets on its own. However, it provides opportunities for the wealthiest publishers to differentiate their products graphically by dint of additional spending on asset creation, motion capture, high profile VA, and additional labor across the board. This tends to lead to an iterative budget escalation between the largest publishers that leaves smaller publishers unable to compete in terms of presentation.
This is what has eroded much of the middle ground that used to exist between mass-market AAAA blockbusters and small titles aimed at niche audiences.
Its not really dumbing down that's happening. Its just not practical for any type of hardware to load a bunch of 500,000+ poly models that are constantly transforming. And the skill of the modeler is more important than the poly count.
The following model wasn't done by me. How many polys do you guys think it took to create this model:
It's unlikely to hit the same time, it will definitely hit a lot later than the Wii U which will have set the next-gen train rolling. The spec jump and desire for new consoles will be enough. Even more so if Nintendo do have a killer-app up their sleeves to kickstart it.
Loop appears and is already bolstered by the Wii U, in the same way as PS3 was already bolstered by the 360. Publishers happy, developers happy. More sales for the same work.
PS4 walking into that market would he well advised to join it, not try and push another leap. 3rd party would suffer from catering to the existing 2, and 1st party is unlikely to be be persuasive enough to cancel out the headstart. Especially considering the tortuous development of things like Gran Turismo.
Just like Vita was always going to be very hard to place in the market, so is PS4. Microsoft and Nintendo have their groundwork much better in place, and if they are now uniting on the same approach going forward that just makes it even harder for Sony.
AngelSoldier
Banned
Not with the launch line-up of games it had ...
You think the Japanese are into Uncharted ?
Trust me, I know my people. Throw a Monster Hunter on that bad boy, and then you'll start moving systems in Japan.
Theonik
Member
The flaw with these sort of numbers is that vague as they are, they don't really tell you anything. 10x what? Fillrate on the GPU? Polygons? Compute performance? Flops on the CPU? etc. Another thing is that raw numbers don't tell you much in the quality of the games these games will put out. Crazy PS2 numbers anyone?
Finally a 5x increase on the NES is not as great as a 5x increase from PS3, they might be the same percentage but the difference is much larger on the second case.
Finally a 5x increase on the NES is not as great as a 5x increase from PS3, they might be the same percentage but the difference is much larger on the second case.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
They didn't last time. They only had a powerhouse and still ended up with an outrageously overpriced system.
No camera, no tablet, nothing. Just the system--just like you're wishing them to do again.
And we'll see what happens, but the same problems are there.
they tell you that on paper at least the wiiU and nextbox should be very similarly powered machines
The high cost of the PS3 mostly due to blu-ray and Cell. Unless there's been an announcement i'm unaware of they won't be going into next gen trying to push a new disc format
gundamkyoukai
Member
That make no sense if PS4 is more power full it will just get better ports like what happens on PC.
Devs will just use the extra powers for things like AA, frame rate etc etc which is not much work .
Now i know specs won't win the war but i don't see how this bad thing for Sony.
They can try something new like MS and Nintendo and it might not catch on and they won't have the hardcore to fall back on cause all the systems got same specs.
As i said before do people really think it can get worst for Sony than this gen with 599 and 1 plus year late.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Perhaps. People on here sound as if their demands for power would result in a similarly-priced system.
Elginer
Member
Has this posted yet?
Kotaku is confirming Bluray for the next Xbox and is saying in the ball park of 8 X more powerful than the 360.
Also some new DRM against used games.
http://kotaku.com/5879202/sources-t...t-play-used-games-and-will-introduce-kinect-2
Kotaku is confirming Bluray for the next Xbox and is saying in the ball park of 8 X more powerful than the 360.
Also some new DRM against used games.
http://kotaku.com/5879202/sources-t...t-play-used-games-and-will-introduce-kinect-2
Trick question, it's one quad and a few different textures.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Posted already.
The used game thing is worthy of its own thread, if anyone wants to start it (if it hasn't been done already). That would be a huge problem.
Better multiplat games has been a cornerstone for 360. Having that + 'the usual' high end Sony stuff would be a better position than PS3 was in.
And you're saying 'the industry doesn't want it'. Want what? An easy port to a more powerful system? What are they going to do - notice the game is running better and disable some compiler optimisations?Lower the res?
Casting a more powerful system in the same position as an underpowered system wrt support and ports is nonsense. Pubs will put their next gen games on any system that can run them and that has a worthwhile market.
You really are over-estimating the public if you think marginal improvements in ports will swing it in the PS4's favour, against systems out longer and most likely cheaper. Everything points to Sony behind quite far behind Microsoft and Nintendo at the moment.
For the PS4 to have an impact if it is later it would have to be *noticeably* better, which the industry as a whole most definitely does not want to accommodate. Some have described the prospect as terrifying remember.
If it isn't noticeably better people will stick with what is already out, that's the main reason the 360 gained. It wasn't that the ports were better to your average consumer, it was because the PS3 didn't offer anything noticeably better in their eyes. It let the 360 continue to build on the headstart it already had.
Sony are going to be forced into a position of how much they want to gamble, and whether the odds are actually worth it. Or just fall in line with Microsoft, Nintendo and the rest of the industry.
What more could developers do to further increase their budgets? Everything they are doing now- orchestral soundtracks, high quality VA, insane amounts of asset creation, etc. - it's all being done NOW. The point is, next-gen will be similar to this gen in terms of development costs. We aren't jumping into the unknown. 1080p is a standard, AA can be done through ED ram, etc.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I think people think they will get more power cause there nothing else that going to mark up the price of the system.
If PS4 going to cost 400 for eg it not going to be because some new drive or something else.
It going to be for the Ram , Gpu ,Cpu and depending on how low ball the others go they can get higher spec system for cheap .
Among the general market? No. But there is a part of the market where this stuff is advantageous.
All I'm saying is that I fail to see how a 'high spec' PS4 would be a bad thing - as long as the price is OK at least. As long as it wasn't uncompetitively priced, notably better spec and all that implies in terms of offering a better experience on third party games etc. would improve Sony's position relative to PS3 against 360.
(As for how noticeable all that would be - your scenario was painting a system that was an outlier in terms of power vs Wii-U/720, so I assume scope in that scenario for it to be reasonably apparent - much more so than 360->PS3)
They had bluray, Cell, and a whole bunch of stupid decisions (Chrome on a console??) that led to that outrageous cost.
A Microsoft rep e-mailed me the following statement: "As an innovator we're always thinking about what is next and how we can push the boundaries of technology like we did with Kinect. We believe the key to extending the lifespan of a console is not just about the console hardware, but about the games and entertainment experiences being delivered to consumers. Beyond that we don't comment on rumors or speculation."
Golf clap.
The most sensible thing for Sony to do, is fall in line. Hit roughly the same power, the same price, and most importantly the same time. 20% power here or there will make no difference, but the industry needs to home in on the same standards for its own benefit if nothing else.
The battle will be won on services, integration, and differentiation. Sony need to do an awful lot of work on these 3 things, they are still too fractured and the content not distinctive enough. To focus on specs instead would be the same folly they made this time round.
plagiarize
Banned
i just remember PS2, GameCube and Xbox. while, the power of the gamecube and xbox probably helped both systems, it certainly wasn't an overriding thing. being a year late to your real competition seems like a bigger factor than relative power (though again, being a year early isn't an overriding factor either).
software library remains the biggest factor, imho. so long as power is close enough for easy multiplatform versions across all three systems, i don't think relative power is going to decide much.
the xbox was much more obviously more powerful than the PS2 than the PS3 is vs the 360, and i'm sure it *helped* but it certainly wasn't enough.
So glad to not be the only one that agrees with this.
This has been the MS plan from the beginning. They don't care about the core gamers they only ever cared about how Sony was gaining so much with the play station brand.
AngelSoldier
Banned
So MS is troll ?
plagiarize
Banned
of course they care about the core gamers. they make a boat load of money from them that they aren't about to surrender. will they put them BEFORE all other groups? i doubt it, but lets not pretend that all the money they make from the core market these days is something that they won't be looking to hold onto. it's the core gamer they'll likely need to launch the system successfully.
Indeed, but I thought your scenario was talking about an outlying PS4?
If Sony can put more power in their system for their budget, at a reasonable price, there's no reason not to, really. I don't know if that would result in an outlying system or something that would fall in line (+20% would not be significant, btw, at all) - but if the scenario was one of an outlier, I don't think it would disadvantage Sony with the above constraint re. price etc.
No, but in the case of Xbox it was quite necessary to establish any credibility and build that 'core' following.
To be clear though, I'm not talking about it being some overriding thing - I'm questioning DECK'ARD's assertions that it would negatively affect the system from a differentiation POV (huh?) and negatively affect third party support (double huh?).
Duxxy3
Member
And change the fucking controller in the FPS-happy north american market. There are a ton of gamers out there that avoid the ps3 specifically because of the controller.
Haha, well if you want to put it like that. Yes
Xbox was a troll from day 1, it was obvious where technology and consumption of media would go. You just had to get a 'box' in people's living rooms to do it. Games just a part of it and the easiest sell at the time. Sony knew it as well, they wanted the PlayStation to be the average person's PC in the long-run, they just weren't as ruthless, and even though they had their fingers in the right pies they were too fractured and slow to react to capitalise. And some of the pies they had their finger in, like Blu-ray, hindered more than helped.
360 was where Microsoft literally threw everything at it, with a box-melting headstart, to pull the rug out from Sony. It worked, combined with Sony's own mis-steps. Xbox as a brand for the living room is complete, there is no need to do the same thing again. Just consolidate position and hit the market at the right time at the right price.
Sony's biggest problem in all areas at the moment is how to position themselves, they've been under attack from all sides and are getting squeezed out of things. Losing the power their brands used to command.
The controller is mostly fine, except for the part where my thumbs slide off the analog sticks and the L2 and R2 buttons are mushy and my fingers slide off those too. Fix those 2 things and the controller would be fine.
AngelSoldier
Banned
You must have sweaty hands. I love the DualShock.
Theonik
Member
Yes, and no. We could assume this, but unless we know what the overall specs of the machines are we can't really make any sort of accurate comparison. Looking at the CPUs and GPUs of current gen systems they would both tell you largely different stories for example, so you'd have to look at the hardware as a whole to be able to tell how these systems stand against each other. Another issue I have with these numbers cropping up lately is that they all seem to contradict each other.
/rant.
Indeed, but I thought your scenario was talking about an outlying PS4?
If Sony can put more power in their system for their budget, at a reasonable price, there's no reason not to, really. I don't know if that would result in an outlying system or something that would fall in line (+20% would not be significant, btw, at all) - but if the scenario was one of an outlier, I don't think it would disadvantage Sony with the above constraint re. price etc.
No, but in the case of Xbox it was quite necessary to establish any credibility and build that 'core' following.
To be clear though, I'm not talking about it being some overriding thing - I'm questioning DECK'ARD's assertions that it would negatively affect the system from a differentiation POV (huh?) and negatively affect third party support (double huh?).
Would you please stop partial quoting
You can fix the mushy triggers for around $5. You shouldn't have to, but it's worth doing.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001AW156U/?tag=neogaf0e-20
There's less headroom to increase production spending, sure. However, this strategy has been consistently employed by the biggest publishers in this generation--to the extent that it continues, it will exacerbate the stakes and risk for the industry as a whole. Another thing to consider is that the more correct you are concerning this point, the less relevant any additional hardware power offered by PS4 becomes.
iamshadowlark
Banned
source?
Also, while I do think devkits are on the way I doubt anybody is actually spilling actual details. Too much conflicting going on.
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
I don't mean to break anyone's hearts here, but I would like to point out that the rumors about the Wii U power is about near finalized development kits versus the XBOX 3 which still has a couple more iterations to go before reaching final development kits.
The final hardware for the XBOX 3/720/whatever will likely be more powerful than what is currently circulating at the moment.
The final hardware for the XBOX 3/720/whatever will likely be more powerful than what is currently circulating at the moment.
Would you please stop partial quoting
I think I'm responding to the pertinent bit. I could go through the rest if you like but I don't think it was relevant to the points I wanted to pick you up on re. the effect of being more powerful on third party support.
But if you insist:
What we have right now points to MS being a year behind Nintendo and a big unknown about Sony - except their comment that they don't want to be too far behind the competition next time, and rumours of PS4 also debuting at E3.
Which I thought you were building into your scenario, painting PS4 as as outlier power-wise.
Pubs would happily put their games on a PS4 in that scenario. They might not design for it specifically, but up ports would be trivial.
Which is why I'm puzzled you would finger Sony as in trouble for coming later with a substantially more powerful system and not MS for coming a year after Nintendo with only a slightly more powerful system. Surely it would make more sense for MS to come with something more powerful like Sony then?
Well, anyway, like I say, these extra points didn't have much to do with the point I was challenging you on - the effect of 'more power' in a PS4 on third party support and it being a 'negative' - the rest of your post didn't substantiate why that would be the case.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
ding ding! This model is actually pretty low poly by todays standards. Art >>>> Tech. However a great artist with great tech is even better
BTW that model is 6,000k or so.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Of course. That's been said numerous times. Not sure how that would "break any hearts."
That said, MS has continually said in interviews that Kinect and profitability are key points in their console future. I think the writing is on the wall that we're not getting a huge leap.
The hearts of people expecting PS4 to be some techno core beast and the next Microsoft machine to be a Wii.
Death Dealer
Member
Well informed people like AlStrong as B3D have already said this 6670/"only" 6x increase is too low for next gen xbox. But it's been interesting to see people spin it into a positive thing, and attack the idea of Sony going with a 10x or greater PS4 as seppuku. LOL
I'm pretty sure they will both be 10x increase (or more) over this generation.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I think that's crazy if they want to release at a reasonable price, but we'll see.
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