TheExecutive
Member
obonicus said:
Look at the Demon's Souls thread. What thread count is that up to now?
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In Defense of Japanese Gaming: Why The Dislike for Japanese Games in Recent Years?
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Look at the Demon's Souls thread. What thread count is that up to now?
major_killjoy
Member
Doctor_No said:
Don't forget Vanquish!
Mass Effect brings a level of cinematic quality I personally have never seen in a game before. It feels like playing a sci-fi film, and I'm not even talking about the story - the overall feel of the game. I felt like the camera was one of the main characters - constantly shifting, even during dialogue, providing angles that just added to the whole experience.thetrin said:
Capcom probably has the only japanese developers who have tried to adopt this style of presentation with Lost Planet 2 being the most notable example.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Himuro said:
Alright I'll bite:
Most of the big budget heavily marketed games targeting toward the 18-35 year old male market (95% of message board posters) are now primarily Western developed. This is mostly due to the fact that North America and Europe make up a vast majority of the market so Western developed games appeal much more to these markets. It's also due to the fact that the spotlight console for the creators of these games is a console that failed in Japan, not to mention consoles have faded away from Japan in general so most notable Japanese games are developed for handhelds.
To make wrap things up, few of the "best" Japanese games this generation have been developed for the premiere North American and European consoles that appeal to the average message board posters demographic. This resulted in few of these posters picking up these games. And since these types of games don't fit with their schemes of interests it's much easier for them to clump and stereotype these games then it is for them to do the same with the type of games associated with them.
This thread is an ideal example so far. People are stating that Western games have been so progressive this generation when in reality most Western genres (most notably WRPG's and FPS's) have hardly changed at all, I could easily argue that (from an on paper standpoint) they've actually regressed if anything but that's for a different topic all together.
Kaijima said:
People appreciate what Demon's Souls brings to the table because it isn't designed to frustrate the player - contrarily, it's designed to ultimately be rewarding. When the primary ways to evoke a sense of tension in RE5 is to make the player character control like shit, and in Dead Rising to make it a task to do something as simple as save your game, then you haven't exactly succeeded.
That is every defense of these two things. "It adds tension." Well, gee, if you remove a steering wheel from a moving car, that adds some tension, but it isn't exactly the most effective thing to do, now is it?
Demon's Souls understood how to add tension without resorting to such weak gimmickry - this is why it's so lauded. There's no sense of gratification in "mastering" RE5's illogical controls, or in playing a session of Dead Rising without being frustrated by its save system. You don't feel rewarded. You feel unfulfilled, if not annoyed. If RE5 wants to be tension-filled, then why doesn't it actually try to be, I don't know, scary in some vague sense? Because they can make Chris walk around like a fucking roided ape who can't lift his arms while moving, I guess. It is pretty scary to see that sort of game design.
the nightman cometh
Member
A majority of people from western countries enjoy western developed games and a majority or Japanese people enjoy Japanese developed games, this is not brain surgery. The vocal minority will always talk about how Japanese developed games don't get the respect they deserve it's just a matter of how many good Japanese games they have to use as examples.
OnimaruXLR
Member
I think it's two things
1) Japan's gaming scene has kind of de-stabilized. You got all those really cool guys leaving Capcom, Yamaoka leaving Konami, the best selling software coming out on portables, low adoption rates of HD systems, the rise and fall of non-games on the DS....it's a bit topsy turvy.
But more importantly
2) The influx of PC-devs that started with the success of the first Halo has created/converted a new audience on consoles, one that never really liked Japanese games in the first place.
1) Japan's gaming scene has kind of de-stabilized. You got all those really cool guys leaving Capcom, Yamaoka leaving Konami, the best selling software coming out on portables, low adoption rates of HD systems, the rise and fall of non-games on the DS....it's a bit topsy turvy.
But more importantly
2) The influx of PC-devs that started with the success of the first Halo has created/converted a new audience on consoles, one that never really liked Japanese games in the first place.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
IPoopStandingUp said:
So games should be more cinematic now, eh? Well it's nice to know that's where the industry is headed so all of us who want to just play games can be prepared for it.
Mr_Appleby
Member
Ranger X said:
stop being so rational!
OnimaruXLR
Member
cosmicblizzard said:
I am pretty sure this is not something the Japanese have trouble with
I don't feel the Japanese have stagnated at all. Beyond the beloved Demon's Souls, there's games like Bayonetta and Resonance of Fate that do so much differently than what's excepted in their usual genres. Sure, for every one original game there's like a hundred Monster Hunter clones, but it's the same in the west with so many following the CoD, GoW, and Gears formulas with very little variation. As someone who has become sick of cookie cutter shooters, I'm glad some Japanese devs are still trying.
PS - I don't know why people praise Dead Space. I found it mind numbingly boring. Like a poor man's Bioshock.
PS - I don't know why people praise Dead Space. I found it mind numbingly boring. Like a poor man's Bioshock.
In regards to Demon's Souls, I think this is because you're pretty much guaranteed to die in the first 5 minutes, so the scope of the game is clearly put to the player.Kaijima said:
Upon repeated play the "archaic" controls are clearly well polished for the purpose of the game and its systems, and repeated deaths (I was never very good at DS) only show up where the player failed.
That kind of presentation is missing from Dead Rising. You can run around for ages without understanding how it works.
Resident Evil 5 never really explains that stop-to-shoot is for "accuracy" (tension), so modern 3rd person fluidity is an understandable expectation considering much of the game is about proper positioning to get a few shots off.
edit:well beaten by Zeliard. who has far better thoughts :/
TheExecutive
Member
Kaijima said:
They called it hardcore because they made the playing field equal. For the most part they made the enemies as deadly as you are. This in turn makes every encounter possibly your last. If this isnt understood then the game is a fail. If it is though, it brings something to gaming that has been overlooked by 99.9% of developers. This coupled with their unique online play makes it one of the better RPG's of all time. This is all mho of course.
Another thing is the whole thing about visuals and scale..
There are no japanese equivalents (at leats not good ones) to Grand Theft Auto, Gears of War, Uncharted, Banjo, God of War, Killzone.....
Look at the many threads about visuals and you'll see tons of Killzone gifs, Uncharted pictures, God of War III, Gears of War..and the rare picture of Final Fantasy XIII....and Gran Turismo 5.
Like on one side you have Avalance; making Just Cause 2.. yet, you have the FFXIII team at Japan talking about how they couldn't even make "HD towns" because it was going to take them a lot of time..even when they probably had more time, resources, money, employees...than Avalanche.
That's probably what some people mean as stuck in the past..
Western developers seem to be focused more on bigger scales, big-populated cities, exploration, vehicles, setpieces, cinematic moments....or at least that
s the impression many seem to have. (Just look at japanese developers talking about being..inspired by Call of Duty and Bad Company 2)
But who knows, I still like japanese games in general so I don't mind..
There are no japanese equivalents (at leats not good ones) to Grand Theft Auto, Gears of War, Uncharted, Banjo, God of War, Killzone.....
Look at the many threads about visuals and you'll see tons of Killzone gifs, Uncharted pictures, God of War III, Gears of War..and the rare picture of Final Fantasy XIII....and Gran Turismo 5.
Like on one side you have Avalance; making Just Cause 2.. yet, you have the FFXIII team at Japan talking about how they couldn't even make "HD towns" because it was going to take them a lot of time..even when they probably had more time, resources, money, employees...than Avalanche.
That's probably what some people mean as stuck in the past..
Western developers seem to be focused more on bigger scales, big-populated cities, exploration, vehicles, setpieces, cinematic moments....or at least that
s the impression many seem to have. (Just look at japanese developers talking about being..inspired by Call of Duty and Bad Company 2)
But who knows, I still like japanese games in general so I don't mind..
cosmicblizzard
Banned
OnimaruXLR said:
If by Japanese, you mean Square Enix, then you'd be right.
DR2K said:
I agree but that seemed to be his point when explaining what sets the experience apart from Japanese games.
cubicle47b
Member
I think it has to do with who is creating the blockbuster titles now. With PC developers making console games and the rise of Rockstar the west has big name games coming out. Some of the big name Japanese games have completely fallen off (Final Fantasy being the most prominent example) at the same time. And the genres and style of gameplay has shifted as well.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
cosmicblizzard said:
Cinematic does not necessarily mean 'lots and lots and lots and lots of cutscenes' you know.
OnimaruXLR
Member
cosmicblizzard said:
It's probably more of a cultural thing than anything else really. Western games aren't exactly universally liked. You can't really objectively evaluate this unless you have absolutely no cultural bias (not possible imo, some probably don't even realize they are biased). At the most, you can judge a game based on its sales (as a publisher/developer), or its technical prowess, but beyond that, it's all just a matter of preference.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
*cough*Xenoblade*cough*fernoca said:
Damn it Nintendo, announce it already!
cosmicblizzard
Banned
OnimaruXLR said:
Touché.
Of course that still doesn't represent the entirety of Japanese development. As it's been said, handhelds are where the Japanese games are and they are significantly less cinematic than their console counterparts.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
I wonder what "Japan's GAF" thinks about western games?
I bet it's the complete opposite of the discussion going on here, with a few western game enthusiasts arguing with Japanese elite gamers who are explaining why spiky hair-dos are much more cooler than bald space marines!
I bet it's the complete opposite of the discussion going on here, with a few western game enthusiasts arguing with Japanese elite gamers who are explaining why spiky hair-dos are much more cooler than bald space marines!
This is part of why I've moved away from Japanese games. I used to play them almost exclusively, up to the end of the Dreamcast/Playstation era. Since then my tastes have evolved, and in ways that seem incompatible with the (relatively few) Japanese games I've played recently. In particular, Halo changed what I look for in a game. It had a freedom to the core gameplay that I found addictive and delightful. And the challenge in the game stemmed in large part from the intelligence of the AI, combined with that open sandbox to the combat design. That changed what I look for in games entirely. I now crave fluid controls, elegant game design and, where possible, reasonably intelligent opponents. In the genres I enjoy, I haven't run into those elements in Japanese games (on the 360).
What I've found - again, in the few Japanese games I've dabbled in since playing that game - was that they tended to make their games hard more through making the game challenging to play, rather than your opponents smart and the encounters creative. Lost Planet sort set the mold for me this gen: controls that were clunky as hell pitting you against masses of idiotic enemies. The demo I played of RE5 was the same: the enemies were stupid, so to make the game challenging the player controls like some sort of convoluted robot. The challenge came from overcoming the controls, not the gameplay scenarios. I didn't feel empowered, I felt restricted. And that's a feeling I can't stand in action games.
Again, I don't mean to over generalize, since I play relatively few Japanese games these days. But that's what I've found in the ones I dabble in. And to be fair, I think most Western games these days are crap as well.
chicken_ramen
Member
It's very simple. Until this generation console gamers didn't have access to western developed games. Until this generation there wasn't a strong line up of games built by people with the same cultural similarities as English speaking gamers. Until this generation, to be a console gamer you had to play Japanese games. Now that isn't true.
When given the option many people prefer the familiar. Many people would prefer the product constructed by others with the same social touchstones. It's not an innovation issue, it's an access and quality issue. Console gamers now have access to well produced western content.
As for why the hate, I imagine nearly every journalist and many forum participants who were gamers in the 90s were a part of the Japanese culture boom in the west. As adolescents they played FF7, they watched Evangelion, they were a nerd. They look back now on that nerdy adolescence and attach those things to their adolescence and lack of social skills. The pursuits of children, not adults. That's my theory. It doesn't work for all cases, because once something trends in a group people just pick it up on their own, that's how groups work, but I'd imagine that is where weeaboo started, a little shame directed at our adolescent selves.
Personally, I used to watch anime, but now I've grown older, the medium simply isn't for me. It's made for children and teens. I'm not in that demographic anymore. I still love Japanese games though, I think the most innovative and interesting games are produced in Japan, this thread has a couple of notable examples already.
When given the option many people prefer the familiar. Many people would prefer the product constructed by others with the same social touchstones. It's not an innovation issue, it's an access and quality issue. Console gamers now have access to well produced western content.
As for why the hate, I imagine nearly every journalist and many forum participants who were gamers in the 90s were a part of the Japanese culture boom in the west. As adolescents they played FF7, they watched Evangelion, they were a nerd. They look back now on that nerdy adolescence and attach those things to their adolescence and lack of social skills. The pursuits of children, not adults. That's my theory. It doesn't work for all cases, because once something trends in a group people just pick it up on their own, that's how groups work, but I'd imagine that is where weeaboo started, a little shame directed at our adolescent selves.
Personally, I used to watch anime, but now I've grown older, the medium simply isn't for me. It's made for children and teens. I'm not in that demographic anymore. I still love Japanese games though, I think the most innovative and interesting games are produced in Japan, this thread has a couple of notable examples already.
Kaijima said:
no the real joke here is you, who didn't get Demon's Souls and yet tried to describe the game
Here's some of the awards Demon's Souls won last year. And there's no short of heavy compettitions last year; Uncharted 2, Dragon Age, Assassin's Creed 2, Batman AA, Killzone 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls
And these are all from the western media
53.^ "Gamespot's Best and Worst of 2009 - Game of the Year 2009". GameSpot.
54.^ "Gamespot's Best and Worst of 2009 - Best PS3 Game". GameSpot.
55.^ "Gamespot's Best and Worst of 2009 - Best Role-Playing Game". GameSpot.
56.^ "Gamespot's Best and Worst of 2009 - Best Original Game Mechanic". GameSpot.
57.^ "Game Trailers Best of 2009 - Best RPG". Game Trailers.
58.^ "Game Trailers Best of 2009 - Best New Intellectual Property". Game Trailers.
59.^ "RPGFan's Best of 2009 - Best RPG for the PS3". RPGFan.
60.^ "RPGFan's Best of 2009 - Best Console Action-RPG". RPGFan.
61.^ "IGN Game of the Year Awards 2009: Best PlayStation 3 RPG". IGN.
62.^ "X-Play Game of the Year Awards 2009: Best GamePlay Innovation". G4 TV.
63.^ "PC World Game of the Year Awards". PC World.
64.^ den Ouden, Adriaan. "RPG of the Year". RPGamer.
65.^ Marchello, Sam. "Best Graphics". RPGamer.
66.^ Staples, Ken. "Best PS3". RPGamer.
Well for what it's worth, the rampant American chest beating present in the majority of war-related games is pretty fucking obnoxious to a fair number of non-Americans. But that's a little off-topic.Syntek said:
I was drawn to Japanese games in the PSX/PS2 era because they tended to create these fantastical worlds full of foreign details and so on.
But more recently (perhaps as I grew up and learned more about the world) it seems as though depth to references and subtlety of themes just isn't there.
Pureauthor
Member
canova said:
Did you read his post? Like, at all?
Demon Soul is innovative? It's as innovative as someone is punching you in the balls everytime you make a mistake.
Yeah and shitty coop, Japanese Devs mostly have no clue on how to do coop. Some games , you need you to rip a soul from an enemy's asshole and fuck with it till you are like level 20 then you can join your friend but not as a player, as a soul.....
Or you need to reach the 2nd or 3rd town which takes about 10 hours to reach then you can go to the Guildhall to play online.
Except Capcom at least they have some clue on how to do coop.
Other than that, Japanese games if I really love the universe (Dead Rising), I will definitely play it till the end.
Yeah and shitty coop, Japanese Devs mostly have no clue on how to do coop. Some games , you need you to rip a soul from an enemy's asshole and fuck with it till you are like level 20 then you can join your friend but not as a player, as a soul.....
Or you need to reach the 2nd or 3rd town which takes about 10 hours to reach then you can go to the Guildhall to play online.
Except Capcom at least they have some clue on how to do coop.
Other than that, Japanese games if I really love the universe (Dead Rising), I will definitely play it till the end.
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
This trailer is a microcosm of why eastern console games (save Nintendo) are fading in the west:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NwQiEPGv9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NwQiEPGv9k
I know about Xenoblade looks great and sounds even better...but I was talking on a non-Nintendo side of things..The_Technomancer said:
..and how some japanese developers seem to struggle when it comes to "make HD things" and decide to either cut corners because it's too difficult or will take too much time..or just cancel the whole thing.....like what happened to Namco's Frame City Killer..TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
Sklorenz said:
More like"Iwata" is looking out for all of us.
cubicle47b
Member
PopcornMegaphone said:
God, that's embarrassing. Dudebro is pretty bad but that..., ugh.
chicken_ramen said:
Sums up how I feel nowadays. Doesn't stop me from picking up games up like demon's souls, valkyria chronicles, contact (does ANYBODY remember this coming out?!), eletroplankton, etc.
Journey is looking like a fantastic game, and there are plenty of smaller under the radar games coming from japan, but that's the case with american games too.
SPEAKING OF CONTACT, if anyone remembers the back of the box:
Things you won't find in Contact: A dull moment. Normalcy. A guy with spikey hair and/or amnesia. Dramatic monologues. The same battles you've been fighting since the 16-bit era.
Now isn't that weird, a japanese developer trolling japanese games.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Japanese games are still the shit. The whole shift to having healthy western game develpment is a good thing for everyone... but I'm still not usually interested in the popular trends of western gaming at all.
Japanese games still have the most stylized art, awesome over-worldly music (techno + symphonic fusion, for example), and strange and amazing gameplay mechanics (Ninja Gaiden, RPG battles, Nintendo etc).
I'm still down with Japan. Fuck the haters.
Japanese games still have the most stylized art, awesome over-worldly music (techno + symphonic fusion, for example), and strange and amazing gameplay mechanics (Ninja Gaiden, RPG battles, Nintendo etc).
I'm still down with Japan. Fuck the haters.
Pureauthor
Member
canova said:
First, the correct spelling is 'gibberish'.
Second, if you did indeed read his post, you might have realized that what you post has absolutely nothing to do with anything he said, aside from agreeing with him that Demon's Souls was widely acclaimed.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
PopcornMegaphone said:
Westerners hate off the wall action? News to me. I figured it was the opposite going by action movies and stuff.
OnimaruXLR
Member
PopcornMegaphone said:
Bayonetta barely suits Japanese tastes (a strong, aggressive female character, in a self-aware game with a sense of humor instead of a bunch of laboriously melodramatic nonsense?) so she's hardly emblematic of the issue.
yes. My take on it is Japan waived the surrender flag early. Too many quotes i've seen from Japanese devs saying Japan can't compete, or saying their making xyz changes to appeal to the west. They did this way before some japanese games started mucking up the place. What Japan needs to do is be Japan and all this low self esteem crap will go away. Japan being Japan is why we have a classic like Demon's Souls.cvxfreak said:
Mr_Appleby
Member
chicken_ramen said:
that is simply not true. what about all the GTA's for instance? i know plenty of people who bought ps2's primarily to play vice city or san andreas.
do people forget that the US is not the only western country? Because quite a lot of ps1/ps2 era games came out of English studios, like Psygnosis, Rare, Team17, Bullfrog, Sensible Software etc.
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