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[Suairyu]

I find it astounding that you think it's laughable that someone was upset about the fact they had something to say and nobody picked up on it.

Imagine if everyone praised Animal Farm by Orwell for being "a fun book about animals" and nobody picked up on the communism allegory. He'd be pretty depressed, too.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I find it astounding that you think it's laughable that someone was upset about the fact they had something to say and nobody picked up on it.

Imagine if everyone praised Animal Farm by Orwell for being "a fun book about animals" and nobody picked up on the communism allegory. He'd be pretty depressed, too.

We've been through this before. I think that he's being a child because a few people didn't want to think about why his game is the way it is, when he's getting universal high scores for the same game. That they are not liking his game for the right reasons. This, combined with the fact that he's all about art, yet he is throwing away the idea that the audience can come to their own conclusions concerning it.

I honestly wonder why you constantly have to point out that you think I'm a fucking idiots that can't grasp complex ideas. Does that get you off or something? We - I - get it. You think my opinion is lame and shows a lack of intelligence. Who honestly cares?

 

[Margalis]

Before Braid come out (or maybe directly afterwards) Blow said in interviews that it didn't make sense to talk about the "meaning" of art as it is subjective and that he expected everyone to take away something different. This was a pretty in-depth interview (I forget where) where he elaborated on that point quite a bit, arguing essentially that it's impossible to to "not get it" as everyone's experience is their own.

Then the game came out and he complained that nobody got exactly what he was getting at.

It's all rather silly and I suspect a lot of it is just drama for the sake of drama. The guy obviously likes the spotlight.

I find it astounding that you think it's laughable that someone was upset about the fact they had something to say and nobody picked up on it.

Maybe the problem is that George Orwell is just slightly (like the teeniest tiniest bit) better at writing than Blow? Apparently he views the meaning of his game as just another puzzle that he crafted and expects people to solve. But viewing meaning that way is silly and his ability to design puzzles is far greater than his writing ability.

Rather than blame the audience for not getting it Blow should probably perform a little self-examination. It's one thing to think "nobody is getting it, maybe I didn't do a great job of presenting." But his opinion seems much more "this idiots don't appreciate my greatness!"

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Before Braid out Blow said in interviews that it didn't make sense to talk about the "meaning" of art as it is subjective and that he expected everyone to take away something different. This was a pretty in-depth interview (I forget where) where he elaborated on that point quite a bit, arguing essentially that it's impossible to to "not get it" as everyone's experience is their own.

You know, if this wasn't Blow we were talking about, I would just assume that it is just another segment of that film which is manipulated up the ass.

 

[Suairyu]

We've been through this before. I think that he's being a child because a few people didn't want to think about why his game is the way it is, when he's getting universal high scores for the same game. That they are not liking his game for the right reasons. This, combined with the fact that he's all about art, yet he is throwing away the idea that the audience can come to their own conclusions concerning it.

I honestly wonder why you constantly have to point out that you think I'm a fucking idiots that can't grasp complex ideas. Does that get you off or something? We - I - get it. You think my opinion is lame and shows a lack of intelligence. Who honestly cares?

I didn't make accusations of your intelligence. I attacked your position that it's silly for an artist to not care that people are only looking surface level at their art. You keep repeating "he got high scores!" "people liked it!" like that invalidates his own wants in life. He wanted people to engage with his work, people didn't, or at least not successfully. He feels a weird combination of frustration with an audience that didn't really care and his own personal sense of failure to communicate something. That doesn't make him childish, that makes him human.

Maybe the problem is that George Orwell is just slightly (like the teeniest tiniest bit) better at writing than Blow?

Irrelevant.

Apparently he views the meaning of his game as just another puzzle that he crafted and expects people to solve. But viewing meaning that way is silly and his ability to design puzzles is far greater than his writing ability.

I'm making no statement about the quality of his work. I didn't work out what he wanted to say, either. But that is irrelevant. The very notion that he could be upset for people not understanding his expression is what is being attacked by your guys here, not his ability to make said statement.

Rather than blame the audience for not getting it Blow should probably perform a little self-examination. It's one thing to think "nobody is getting it, maybe I didn't do a great job of presenting." But his opinion seems much more "this idiots don't appreciate my greatness!"

This is your projection.

 

[Margalis]

I didn't make accusations of your intelligence. I attacked your position that it's silly for an artist to not care that people are only looking surface level at their art.
...
This is your projection.

Apparently it's yours as well.

Re-read the lines above, written by you in the same post.

The very notion that he could be upset for people not understanding his expression is what is being attacked by your guys here, not his ability to make said statement.

What I am "attacking" is that he explicitly rejected the idea that a work of art has some singular meaning the audience is supposed to puzzle out. Until the game came out and he went all over the internet where discussions on Braid were taking place, chastising people for not getting the one true meaning of the game. Like a lot of the stuff he does (for example his recent blogging about his "Depth Jam") it reeks of melodrama and performance.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

He wanted people to engage with his work, people didn't, or at least not successfully. He feels a weird combination of frustration with an audience that didn't really care and his own personal sense of failure to communicate something. That doesn't make him childish, that makes him human.

And that's fine.

But that's not what I was commenting on at all (and by now, I'm sensing that you know that; you just want to shout "nu-uh! Stop saying mean things about Blow!").

By the way, the quality of a writer when comparing their metaphors? Not irrelevant.

 

[Suairyu]

Apparently it's yours as well.

Re-read the lines above, written by you in the same post.

Many, many posts of him being "childish". Then another saying he came off as thinking himself a genius and others just not getting the genius, which runs directly counter to what he said in the film, where he called it bundling up his insecurities and failures, very much his un-genius. So yes, your accusation was projection.

And to call him childish for being frustrated and upset and people not seeing what he wanted them to see (even if that is his own failure to communicate properly) is indeed to dismiss the notion of an artist wanting people to understand what they're saying in their art.

So like, yeah. Of course the guy should have tried better not to take it to heart, to learn from his mistakes as an artist and try better next time to not obscure all his intended meaning behind walls of badly-written text and so-metaphorical-they-cease-to-be-metaphors metaphors. He most definitely shouldn't have done his amazing magic trick of appearing out of nowhere, and instead written a post-mortem on gamasutra or something.

But you can't dismiss that as childish or "but you got high scores and made money suck it up" without saying his strive to express something was dumb.

And that's fine.

But that's not what I was commenting on at all.

... then why have you been responding to my posts as if I was attacking your actual position?

What was your position? If I misinterpreted it then I'm sorry, but you did a good job acting like I didn't. I read:
"You make art for yourself, not others."
"You shouldn't be upset if others didn't get it, especially if the metacritic is high."
And then some dismissive statements that seems to imply he's a fool for viewing Braid as an artistic expression rather than a just a videogame.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

And then some dismissive statements that seems to imply he's a fool for viewing Braid as an artistic expression rather than a just a videogame.

You got all that from me calling Braid generic?

 

[Suairyu]

You got all that from me calling Braid generic?

No, from this:

Too bad he doesn't make games.

He makes art.

(though when there's not a lot like Braid on the market, I don't understand the generic comment either...)

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Well, he actually said that.

 

[Margalis]

Many, many posts of him being "childish".

I have exactly zero posts of him being "childish." So yeah.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I have plenty.

 

[Margalis]

Are you me?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I'm sure in some reality, yeah.

 

[Suairyu]

I have exactly zero posts of him being "childish." So yeah.

You don't, Wuvcraft does, it was all one conversation.

 

[Margalis]

To be explicit about the contradiction I pointed out earlier:

"I attacked your position that it's silly for an artist to not care that people are only looking surface level at their art."

Implicit in this statement is incrimination of the audience.

I would argue that plenty of people didn't just look at the surface level of the game - they looked at the whole game and found the stuff beneath the surface not particularly coherent or expressive. The video game audience can look beyond the surface level of a game. However to me positioning "find the meaning" as some sort of puzzle is not a good way to encourage that and in a way trivializes whatever meaning it supposedly has. The idea that there is a singular meaning that the reader has to figure out is extremely reductive.

 

[Suairyu]

To be explicit about the contradiction I pointed out earlier:

"I attacked your position that it's silly for an artist to not care that people are only looking surface level at their art."

Implicit in this statement is incrimination of the audience.

I would argue that plenty of people didn't just look at the surface level of the game - they looked at the whole game and found the stuff beneath the surface not particularly coherent or expressive.

I worded that poorly, I agree. I didn't intend that implication but it's there.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

they looked at the whole game and found the stuff beneath the surface not particularly coherent or expressive.

I, and plenty of people that I know, thought this about Braid.

Adding in a time mechanic is innovative, but it's not new to the medium. And, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why the MacGuffin was the Atomic Bomb. It was just there to be artsy.

 

[ghibli99]

Just watched this the other night, and I thought it was a well-produced film.

I would go back and forth between feeling bad for Refenes and wanting to just slap him.

In light of this thread, I don't think this film does Fish any favors, even if his "other half" wasn't represented. Apart from maybe one section where you're like, damn, a lot has happened in a very short amount of time to this guy, I really couldn't stand him. I did smile when he was talking about the old games he made with his dad, though.

McMillen at first seems out there and crazy, but over the course of the film, he became the guy I identified with the most. Seems like a genuinely nice guy who cares about his craft and the human side of things as well. I really liked his interviews, especially towards the end.

Blow reminds me of Molyneux. Articulate, but just seems a bit out of touch and full of himself post-Braid success.

Edit: It should be noted that I don't really follow the indie scene that closely, so I kinda took what I saw in the film at face value and watched it for little more than entertainment value.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Just watched this the other night, and I thought it was a well-produced film.

I would go back and forth between feeling bad for Refenes and wanting to just slap him.

In light of this thread, I don't think this film does Fish any favors, even if his "other half" wasn't represented. Apart from maybe one section where you're like, damn, a lot has happened in a very short amount of time to this guy, I really couldn't stand him. I did smile when he was talking about the old games he made with his dad, though.

McMillen at first seems out there and crazy, but over the course of the film, he became the guy I identified with the most. Seems like a genuinely nice guy who cares about his craft and the human side of things as well. I really liked his interviews, especially towards the end.

Blow reminds me of Molyneux. Articulate, but just seems a bit out of touch and full of himself post-Braid success.

Edit: It should be noted that I don't really follow the indie scene that closely, so I kinda took what I saw in the film at face value and watched it for little more than entertainment value.

Most of the non-devs I've talked to have loved this. Most of the devs hated it.

It's really not a movie about video game development at all, really. Which is, quite frankly, what it should have been about. That was its selling point on Kickstarter. That's why my dev friend showed it to me.

And yes, every documentary edits scenes to make it more dramatic. But just like the phrase "not everything can be Shakespeare", this concept is completely over-used to mean "shut up and just watch, you elitist prick". There's a line between editing to making things seem more dramatic, and just plain lying. This movie reminded me more of Navajo Talking Picture more than anything else, because it was a roadmap in how not to make a documentary.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

Really late to the party, but I just saw this today. Incredible film. I've been thinking about it all day. I have to say Edmund McMillen (Team Meat) came off the absolute best in this movie. Such a likable guy. His partner seemed on the edge of serious depression and/or anxiety. Jonathon Blow came off as pretentious as he always does (for me anyway) and Phil Fish came off as neurotic.

All of them shared one trait, however - all massively introspective. Maybe that's just a trait of people who are extremely talented or creative, but to me many of these people seemed incredibly self centered and lost in their own worlds. I don't mean to sound so negative, I don't dislike any of them. But that's how it seemed to me.

All in all, an outstanding documentary.

 

[Amagon]

Saw this movie a few nights ago. Fucking Great!!! Will buy the special edition Blu-ray whenever it comes out!

 

[bodyboarder]

Finally got round to watching this. Great movie. The team meat stuff (as has been mentioned) was my favorite bit.

 

[Krappadizzle]

Finally got round to watching this. Great movie. The team meat stuff (as has been mentioned) was my favorite bit.

Yeah, I picked it up on the Steam sale, was great, especially seeing that Team Meat stuff. I had no clue how small of a team they were and how much personal hell you must go through to get your game out there.

 

[jooey]

Yeah, I picked it up on the Steam sale, was great, especially seeing that Team Meat stuff. I had no clue how small of a team they were and how much personal hell you must go through to get your game out there.

Well, to get it out on XBLA, anyway.

 

[oatmeal]

Just bought it...watching now.

HOW THE FUCK DID THEY GET SUCH HIGH RESOLUTION NES GRAPHICS?

Looks unbelievable! I want the Wii U to upscale to at least 720. So clear...shit.

 

[oatmeal]

Finished it last night but went to bed.

Really nice doc. I found it to be surprisingly touching in certain parts (mostly related to Edmund). Dude is awesome, he's totally Jimmy from Breaker High. Fun-loving awesome bro.

I hope that they film an epilogue about Fez's release, now that it's out and so successful. Would be cool to see how he reacted to all of that.

I'm spreading the word of this thing.

 

[Tc91]

Yeah the bit about Fez was awesome. Cool guy but crazy as shit.

Felt really bad for him when his game kept cocking up at the expo.

 

[Warm Machine]

As a game developer watching the movie I absolutely loved it. It captured the artistic intent, the stress, frustration, and elation of the job of making games. There were a couple of times when I had tears in my eyes.

Everything rang really true to me and mirrored events I've dealt with in my own life.

 

[jooey]

Just bought it...watching now.

HOW THE FUCK DID THEY GET SUCH HIGH RESOLUTION NES GRAPHICS?

Looks unbelievable! I want the Wii U to upscale to at least 720. So clear...shit.

I.. y-- have you heard of emulators?

 

[XBOX HIVES]

Saw this last night and I have to say I really enjoyed it. This gen's indie explosion was probably my favorite part of gaming these last few years and it was intriguing to see the amount of pressure these guys go through. Definitely recommend this to fellow gaffers.

 

[MRORANGE]

from another thread:

you can now watch the movie on netflix.

 

[Funky Functionality]

Saw the cover for this movie while browsing Netflix last night--I'd never heard of it, so I checked the info to see how legitimate it may or may not be (this is Netflix, after all)... saw Jonathan Blow's name and instantly clicked play.

My, my, my. What a documentary this was. Team Meat really tugged on my heartstrings--seeing their response to success was both humbling and inspiring. They were the true stars of this doc.

Jonathan Blow came off exactly as I imagined he would, which is not to say he's a pretentious assclown, but rather a tragically misunderstood intellectual. The communication issues plaguing him and his work seem to be a result of the fact that he is simply on a higher plane than the majority of his audience. He wants his games to be a vehicle for ideas and themes that the average gamer has neither the capacity nor the attention span to deeply appreciate. I know that feel, Blow. It's called Asperger's. Speaking of feelings, I felt Braid was the best game I'd played since I first fired up an NES in 1987, and it was a treat to hear Blow's perspective on its creation and reception in a more neutral setting than we were all accustomed to in the weeks following Braid's release.

Now, then... Phil Fish. This guy. Man. I relate to him on many levels, and I hope he looks back on this documentary and laughs about how ridiculous it makes him seem. I realize he poured his entire life into Fez and it was his sole passion, but fuck, dude, CALM THE FUCK DOWN. I can only hope that Fez's success has given him the validation he so desperately needs to reach the level of self-actualization that Edmund of Team Meat briefly reflects upon in the closing minutes of the film.

I don't play video games very often anymore--not for lack of wanting to, but because I had to restructure my priorities to get what I want from my life--but this documentary made me appreciate the fact that I'm a gamer just a bit more than I had before. Even more than that, it made me appreciate independent developers and the sacrifices they make to fulfill their dreams. As a human interest piece, this documentary excels on every level. Great stuff. A+. Would watch again. Et cetera.

 

[StuBurns]

I've been meaning to watch the film for a while, I hadn't got around to it, but the guys at my Subway were talking about it last night, so I thought it was time.

I have some issues with the documentary itself, the treatment of Phil Fish's Japanese porn faced former partner was really obnixious. I believe it's the Dyad guy, who does seem to be a dick, much like Phil Fish, but it was a pretty terrible way to treat him.

Jonathan Blow has always been a really interesting guy, people think he's pretentious, maybe he is, but he's talented, and thoughtful with it. Braid remains one of the very finest games of this generation to me certainly, and I have very high hopes for The Witness.

Without question the story of Team Meat is the highlight however, SMB is a fantastic game, and watching the anguish that went into it's final weeks was pretty gripping. I thought it was interesting to show the parallel between Tommy and Edmund's experience of those weeks. Especially after having Edmund describe the isolation he'd felt as a child, and how it affected his game design, given he was happily married, and seemingly handling the stress much better than Tommy.

The film was interesting enough, I would love to have heard more about how Braid's development had impacted Blow. He speaks briefly about the first two weeks of design on Braid was liberating, and joyful, but we don't get to hear if the years following were equally inspiring, or if he had the same stress and depression the others appeared to.

The Subway staff weren't the only thing about yesterday that inspired this viewing however, a friend of mine is working on a small game project he's being tight lipped about. Another friend I was with had recently played a game his friend had made, and was talking about his experiences with it. I think I'll try making something tomorrow, see if I can make something of a complete experience in a day, certainly it will be wholly generic and limited, but it'd be a nice experiment I think. Does GAF have a thread for people posting game stuff they've made? Maybe I can check out something people have been working on.

 

[Vice]

Watched it on Netflix. Didn't enjoy it much, the subjects all came off as very unlikable and worse just not very interesting.

 

[Buttonbasher]

Does GAF have a thread for people posting game stuff they've made? Maybe I can check out something people have been working on.

I was meaning to post this when I read your post the other day, but here you go:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491431

 

[Card Boy]

Just watched this after picking up Humble Bundle 7.

I really felt sorry for Tommy and Phil

 

[Jotamide]

I finally got around to watch this. I guess it was ok, it got me pumped for Mew Genics. The Team Meat guys are really cool.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

So, I just finished watching this on Netflix about a minute ago. Kinda dull, but educational and lifting especially towards the end. I'm really glad Super Meat Boy guy (Edmund McMillen) got his girlfriend the hairless cat and a house. He seemed like a really good chap. After watching this too, I don't think Fish is quite as bad as some people make him out to be. Sounds like he went through a lot of crap. The movie is a bit "old" so we can see he did well now that Fez 2 has been announced.

All around, a pretty interesting (if boring) movie.

The "best" part was Fez bugging at Pax. By "best" I mean most interesting part of the movie, but I really felt for him during those moments. Good to see everyone in this film had a happy ending regardless.

 

[hoverX]

Watched it on Netflix. Didn't enjoy it much, the subjects all came off as very unlikable and worse just not very interesting.

I don't see why people say this at all. Is it perhaps that they all come across as the suffering artist types?

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I don't see why people say this at all. Is it perhaps that they all come across as the suffering artist types?

Not that I didn't like it, but oh boy did they come off as the suffering artist types. Then again, maybe they really were. Threatening suicide. Very sad. I wouldn't want that stress. Forget ever becoming a game developer.

 

[hoverX]

yeah, I think some of the melodrama is just a result of all the stress they are under. I know I wouldn't want a camera in my face when I'm dealing with shit at work and I bet it isn't even half as bad as what they are going through. I' probably Phil Fish x 10.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

yeah, I think some of the melodrama is just a result of all the stress they are under. I know I wouldn't want a camera in my face when I'm dealing with shit at work and I bet it isn't even half as bad as what they are going through. I' probably Phil Fish x 10.

There's no joke in that. I kinda feel bad for Fish.

Was anything scripted? I dunno. I would've liked to have seen more of them go out and interact rather than just tak in their room. Like dealing with their partners and MS.

 

[2MF]

I watched it and liked it.

You can't really blame a guy like Fish for saying extreme things given how much stress he was in. In his case, it was not only the game creation stressing him out, it was also a bunch of stuff going wrong in his personal life simultaneously.

I think it's wrong to call him a drama queen. He was simply a creative talented guy reacting to the stuff happening to him in a way which is actually quite human. People say embarassing stuff all the time, doesn't mean he should be castigated for it.

 

[Monado Blade]

Watched it last night as well (thanks Summer Sale).

Enjoyed it. On the whole a brilliantly made documentary. It made me understand Phil Fish a little more.

It also strangely simultaneously made me want to get back into indie game development and repelled me from it

 

[red731]

Oooh! Thank you for reminding me about this! Going to buy and watch immediately after work!

 

[red731]

Just saw it.

What a wonderfully made documentary and insight into creating an Indie game.
I don't know if I could cope with such stress, but the feeling they've had after the release, the happiness and luck that their games brought them was so strong even through screen.

I shed a happy tear here and there. Get it guys, I say it is pretty damn worth it.

Thanks Tommy and Edmund, Phil and Jonathan. I had bought your games in the beginning of this summer steam sale and am hooked - it was never too late.

Huge smile on my frowny everyday face when I am playing your games, guys. Thanks.

 

[Suairyu]

There an update on all the other interviews that didn't make it into the film being released? And the extra ones they were going to be shooting?

 

[2MF]

There an update on all the other interviews that didn't make it into the film being released? And the extra ones they were going to be shooting?

There's a special edition with more content, I don't know exactly what though.