-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Injustice 2 Roster Discussion & Speculation Thread
- Thread starter delSai
- Start date
pock3tmonster
Banned
I believe someone created a GAF community/group for the Xbox One version. Search for "House of Ls".
False Witness
Member
The one thing that really confused me about that video is saying that MK and IJ characters have no personality.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I thought major complaint was Mortal Kombat was boring to watch? I always get partially bored with MK tournament but Injustice always felt better to watch via speculators so I can't wait for I2 @ EVO.
pock3tmonster
Banned
Can you explain this comparison? I know who John Cena is, but I don't understand the connection.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
If you meant casual love him but hardcore hate him then yes.
Marvel
could never
Nice, thanks.
Successful, always improving, still being hated by the hardcore.
pock3tmonster
Banned
Thanks! You nailed it!
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Basically. I wonder if it's a result of franchise damage? When they completely changed the franchise with MK4, it took them awhile to go back to what hardcore wanted them to. (I'm rusty with MK knowledge)
SUPARSTARX
Member
Are early copies out in the wild yet?
lucebuce12
Member
Give it a week.
lucebuce12
Member
if MKX was any indication then buying the characters piecemeal is probably gonna cost 5$ per character.
There'll definitely be a season pass-type affair that'll have the characters too but I wouldn't be surprised if the ultimate edition turns out to be the cheapest option if you want to have everything.
Wait... What?! Haha. I don't even...
I guess Necalli should be recognized for his poignant back story and Oscar worthy dialogue.
The John Cena comparison is fucking perfect hahaha. Anyways, I don't mean to derail this thread into a mudslinging contest because like I said, I do enjoy most Capcom fighters and am very much looking forward to MvCI. I hope Chris G comes back to compete in I2, I really enjoyed watching his GA play. I hope we get some good news today!
Oh and pock3t, what you said about getting new players into the FGC is a very good point! For whatever reason though, some people seem to want to keep things as exclusive as possible. It's not the pros and people like Art and Alex Valle who host tournaments for multiple games causing this, it's low tier internet gatekeepers.
He spent the entire video defining what he thought having a "personality" was; a consistent showing of characterization that is proven by the smallest and largest motions, all working together to tell the same story.
Capcom's Marvel games (especially the older ones) EXCEL a this. Even the things they exaggerate beyond the comics / movies of the time, are done so consistently, that later adaptations work their ideas into the fiction, because they're so bold and solid.
The NR / old Midway games fail at this, because they're more of a hodgepodge of ideas that are glued together because they independently (sorta) work, rather than all working together.
If Capcom / SNK / ASW / French Bread have characters that SCREAM who they are in every motion, NR games, comparatively feel as if they "strongly suggest" a personality. You might find a Special move or fatality that says "THAT is Scorpion!", but then you see a jab, block, combo string, or victory pose that falls short, and the grandiose outlook you have on the character shrinks bit by bit...
... and this is a huge reason why I can't really get as hype for their games as I'd like. Beyond the fact I still don't love how they control (I hope to like IJ2 better, again), there's very few characters (if any at all) where I feel as if their regular set of moves / voices doesn't make me cringe each match. No other fighter (not even indie ones) manage this.
Which might be appropriate, because I feel the same way whenever I watch an episode of Gotham. There's an unintentional campiness and extra OverTHETOP-ness to performances that are acted out SUPER seriously, that those performing the actions / lines seem totally oblivious to. And it's subtly, yet consistently, off-putting.
lucebuce12
Member
This is true.
There are a few characters in this game that I feel have really broken free of that NRS tradition, namely Swamp Thing and Dr. Fate. Both character's animations for almost everything is just fantastic and their personality really shines through.
But then you have characters like Poison Ivy that have some animations that really don't fit the character, some moves that just look off etc etc.
You wouldn't say there's an over the top campiness in SF as well? I don't completely know how to respond to some of this because it's a matter of taste, and I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're wrong because... Well, you're not. I would argue that the voice acting NOW (not prior to MKX) has improved greatly. Of course, nothing is perfect and some things are hit and miss but it's like that in nearly every FG. There will always be characters that resonate with the player more than others, and how that is received is up to the player. I wouldn't even say Injustice is super serious, there's actually a lot of humor in the game through dialogue alone (mostly thanks to Green Arrow).
And as you stated in your post, the "older NR/Midway games fail at this":
Again, I don't see anyone arguing with this. You're right. The problem however is it's always about the old games and how they failed. People have a preconceived notion about NRS games simply because of past flaws and for whatever reason can't seem to look past them and acknowledge the improvements and strides they've made over the years. Even to now when they have arguably made one of the greatest looking fighting games so far (I2), it's always about the past and not the present.
I do agree with you on the matter of iconic moves as obviously moves like the hadouken will always be instantly recognizable. But losing interest in a character because you don't like a jab animation, blockstring or win pose is about as microscopically nitpicking as you can get. You'll find those flaws in every game if you look for them, and again is a matter of taste.
Edit: My biggest issue with the way NRS games are perceived has nothing to do with people not liking the game, not liking the characters, art direction, etc. It's that it seems like people feel the need to tell fans why their game is inferior every step of the way. It's weird and obsessive lol.
Spehornoob
Member
I always thought the weird animations kind of work in MK because the games have such a B-movie feel to them. Less so in the first Injustice, which does have a really stiff feeling to it, IMO.
I think the Injustice 2 animations look excellent so far though. Especially on the newer characters. And it played great in the beta.
I've always personally enjoyed the NRS games more than other fighters, but I am a bit of a filthy casual when it comes to fighting games. MKX is the only one I've ever played online and I don't even have a winning record!
I think the Injustice 2 animations look excellent so far though. Especially on the newer characters. And it played great in the beta.
I've always personally enjoyed the NRS games more than other fighters, but I am a bit of a filthy casual when it comes to fighting games. MKX is the only one I've ever played online and I don't even have a winning record!
False Witness
Member
See, I think he is mad that the characters are not animated as what he feels they are versus what they actually are. Kotal is not a regal emperor. He's someone who's unsure of himself. Scorpion is filled with rage, which explains the hand movements and planted feet. I know when I get upset, I tend to stand very still, but can't really control my upper body movement. Mileena isn't a primal character, despite her biting attacks.
I understand this a little more the way you explained it, thank you. And I get that, but I guess I never really delve that far into my own personal psyche in regards to the character I'm playing lol. If I did I would be angry that this dude who can body people in two minutes and has poisonous hands can't catch a fucking break against virtually every other character in his game (I do get mad, actually). On the flipside, I don't ever fight a Chun Li and think, "Hey, it's a cop!" by her moveset.
I didn't get to play the Beta, and the main reason I'm getting this one is because of a best friend. I hope to be pleasantly surprised in the end, but history says otherwise...
Fate's victory pose bothers me, annoyingly enough. That final pose he takes, I expect something like this:
But what I get feels more like:
..and I just wonder "WHYYYYYYY...", lol. Swamp Thing is pretty good, he is one of the more consistent characters in this game, animation / design wise. I hope I like playing him!
SF, and most other series, at least are very self aware. Not perfect, but not nearly as tone deaf, either.
SF fails more NOW for me, than it used to. Like I think Laura is horribly 1-dimensional and blah. Much of their DLC and extra costume design fails pretty badly. But even still, I think they're really good at showing their intent. I might not LIKE it, but I feel their vision is clear. Their key product is purposely saying what it wants to.
However, my commentary on Voice work is more for Gotham than the NR games, I like a lot of the actors and such in NR games. (I think the "Player ___ wins" announcer in IJ2 sounds incredibly boring though.) It's their animation work (and stilted gameplay) that brings that down for me still. It's like hearing an awesome voice come out of a poorly drawn character in a cartoon; a legendary actor won't make a bad cartoon worth watching, y'know?
No, no, I said Neatherrelm games in general, including the old Midway games, fail at this! ;-) They still do some of these things poorly, unfortunately.
I acknowledged their successes with buying the MKs and IJ1 when they came out... the complaints still come from the fact they never seem to change certain things, and the new complaints comes from a lot of the stuff you'd think they'd change, still staying the same. I loved the optional special move shift to SF motions in IJ1, for example, but the button cancel windows and such still felt REALLY off to me. Even while fiddling with negative edge, or using different controllers. And then you go to MKX, and while some characters felt right, all had certain strings that just never felt right at all, and it's a constant "WHYYYYY?!?" feeling that is refreshed every time one plays a character.
Every largely hyped new title somehow contains many of the same issues, and it's... really odd they don't iron them out. It's less a pre-conceived notion, and more a bias that keeps repeatedly being affirmed. They work on issues surrounding the core, but never address the actual core.
Nice lighting, textures, facial mo-cap / animations, and densely-created Backgrounds are nice... but if the gameplay feel and response leaves one with an "ugh" each time a match ends, none of that matters as much as it would alongside excellent gameplay. An excellently realized character with 4 vocal lines is more meaningful and memorable than a mediocre character with 30 vocal lines, a nicely animated face, and a good light engine.
But... not really? Like I said, I don't think there's another Fighter dev who manages year-over-year to make something so lukewarm, in a way. There's stuff in Skullgirls I didn't like, but they do what they do so well, that what they excel at can win one over. If not as a full game, at least on a "well, at least Peacock is cool!" type of way. Not to mention how refined Mike-Z has made the control responsiveness and input methodology.
Killer Instinct has a lot of animations that are... odd. Especially with the new ultimates. But at the same time, they nail characters like Hisako better than almost anyone has in GAMING, not just in fighters. And their stages tell stories better than any recent fighter.
Most fighters live and die by solid direction. There's something they do so strongly, that even a detractor can't deny that particular quality. It's normally a gameplay or character design aspect.
With NR games, it's... their SP stuff, for me. Their cinematic stories are like buying a DC animated movie. That's cool. But everything past that is like it's stuck at only 60~80% of it's potential. Not a single character out of a decent sized roster makes me fully forget "this is a NR game!" for a moment, to let me feel "This is just awesome!!".
Every encounter is full of some weird caveat that brings down that moment, and that's uniquely maddening. Especially since they should be one of the most well-equipped to weed some of the obvious issues out by now, frickin' decades later. I don't like DC stuff as much as Marvel, in general, but their animated works have often eclipsed such distinctions, because THEY'RE JUST PLAIN AWESOME. Young Justice or Batman TAS isn't cool "for a western cartoon" or "still worse than a movie"... they were solid works that could stand alongside my favorite... anything.
I really wish their premiere video game franchise that makes use of those same characters and actors could mean as much to me.
As a big KOF fan, I know the feel. "Why'd you come in my house just to tell me how ugly my baby is?!?", lol. For NR, they've just laid this bed with YEARS of stuff. Just like SNK pushed 1996 Neo Geo sprites all the way to KoF XI in 2005. Some things are so against-the-grain they just demand attention until they're changed.
"He who chases two rabbits, catches neither."
The idea is that they're not communicating a solid theme with their motions; they're trying to do everything at one time, and thus achieving nothing. What you bring up are modifiers to the base design, not base elements of the design themselves.
Fate's victory pose bothers me, annoyingly enough. That final pose he takes, I expect something like this:
But what I get feels more like:
..and I just wonder "WHYYYYYYY...", lol. Swamp Thing is pretty good, he is one of the more consistent characters in this game, animation / design wise. I hope I like playing him!
SF, and most other series, at least are very self aware. Not perfect, but not nearly as tone deaf, either.
SF fails more NOW for me, than it used to. Like I think Laura is horribly 1-dimensional and blah. Much of their DLC and extra costume design fails pretty badly. But even still, I think they're really good at showing their intent. I might not LIKE it, but I feel their vision is clear. Their key product is purposely saying what it wants to.
However, my commentary on Voice work is more for Gotham than the NR games, I like a lot of the actors and such in NR games. (I think the "Player ___ wins" announcer in IJ2 sounds incredibly boring though.) It's their animation work (and stilted gameplay) that brings that down for me still. It's like hearing an awesome voice come out of a poorly drawn character in a cartoon; a legendary actor won't make a bad cartoon worth watching, y'know?
No, no, I said Neatherrelm games in general, including the old Midway games, fail at this! ;-) They still do some of these things poorly, unfortunately.
I acknowledged their successes with buying the MKs and IJ1 when they came out... the complaints still come from the fact they never seem to change certain things, and the new complaints comes from a lot of the stuff you'd think they'd change, still staying the same. I loved the optional special move shift to SF motions in IJ1, for example, but the button cancel windows and such still felt REALLY off to me. Even while fiddling with negative edge, or using different controllers. And then you go to MKX, and while some characters felt right, all had certain strings that just never felt right at all, and it's a constant "WHYYYYY?!?" feeling that is refreshed every time one plays a character.
Every largely hyped new title somehow contains many of the same issues, and it's... really odd they don't iron them out. It's less a pre-conceived notion, and more a bias that keeps repeatedly being affirmed. They work on issues surrounding the core, but never address the actual core.
Nice lighting, textures, facial mo-cap / animations, and densely-created Backgrounds are nice... but if the gameplay feel and response leaves one with an "ugh" each time a match ends, none of that matters as much as it would alongside excellent gameplay. An excellently realized character with 4 vocal lines is more meaningful and memorable than a mediocre character with 30 vocal lines, a nicely animated face, and a good light engine.
But... not really? Like I said, I don't think there's another Fighter dev who manages year-over-year to make something so lukewarm, in a way. There's stuff in Skullgirls I didn't like, but they do what they do so well, that what they excel at can win one over. If not as a full game, at least on a "well, at least Peacock is cool!" type of way. Not to mention how refined Mike-Z has made the control responsiveness and input methodology.
Killer Instinct has a lot of animations that are... odd. Especially with the new ultimates. But at the same time, they nail characters like Hisako better than almost anyone has in GAMING, not just in fighters. And their stages tell stories better than any recent fighter.
Most fighters live and die by solid direction. There's something they do so strongly, that even a detractor can't deny that particular quality. It's normally a gameplay or character design aspect.
With NR games, it's... their SP stuff, for me. Their cinematic stories are like buying a DC animated movie. That's cool. But everything past that is like it's stuck at only 60~80% of it's potential. Not a single character out of a decent sized roster makes me fully forget "this is a NR game!" for a moment, to let me feel "This is just awesome!!".
Every encounter is full of some weird caveat that brings down that moment, and that's uniquely maddening. Especially since they should be one of the most well-equipped to weed some of the obvious issues out by now, frickin' decades later. I don't like DC stuff as much as Marvel, in general, but their animated works have often eclipsed such distinctions, because THEY'RE JUST PLAIN AWESOME. Young Justice or Batman TAS isn't cool "for a western cartoon" or "still worse than a movie"... they were solid works that could stand alongside my favorite... anything.
I really wish their premiere video game franchise that makes use of those same characters and actors could mean as much to me.
As a big KOF fan, I know the feel. "Why'd you come in my house just to tell me how ugly my baby is?!?", lol. For NR, they've just laid this bed with YEARS of stuff. Just like SNK pushed 1996 Neo Geo sprites all the way to KoF XI in 2005. Some things are so against-the-grain they just demand attention until they're changed.
"He who chases two rabbits, catches neither."
The idea is that they're not communicating a solid theme with their motions; they're trying to do everything at one time, and thus achieving nothing. What you bring up are modifiers to the base design, not base elements of the design themselves.
I got to sit down with Ed Boon at a recent preview event in LA. I asked him specifically about DLC characters and cropped out that part of the interview, which y'all can see here.
For what it's worth, he does mention Red Hood and Starfire specifically by name, but doesn't confirm they're coming. He does say mainline heroes and more obscure characters are both on the way.
Edit: I have one more article / video segment coming today where he talks about story mode deaths. He compares it to Game of Thrones and says no one is sacred so... Yeah. We're in for a roller-coaster.
For what it's worth, he does mention Red Hood and Starfire specifically by name, but doesn't confirm they're coming. He does say mainline heroes and more obscure characters are both on the way.
Edit: I have one more article / video segment coming today where he talks about story mode deaths. He compares it to Game of Thrones and says no one is sacred so... Yeah. We're in for a roller-coaster.
LordOfLore
Banned
LordOfLore
Banned
Could the DLC be revealed on the next Clueless Gamer? That was where Zod was revealed, right?
NRS games have greatly improved ever since they became NRS, but it's still fair to critique things like animations, really forgettable music, and overfrequent patching. Unfortunately you're going to have shitposts from either side of the argument hurting the overall discussion.
The games are improving with each iteration, but they still fall short in some key ways. And yes that video about MK's animations is right on the money. A lot of animations look terrible, especially idle stances. That's a fair criticism for what became to be a better game than MK9.
The games are improving with each iteration, but they still fall short in some key ways. And yes that video about MK's animations is right on the money. A lot of animations look terrible, especially idle stances. That's a fair criticism for what became to be a better game than MK9.
OH right, that's a thing.
Fuck I don't want to watch Conan.
Actually I can't watch him, hes on TBS now.
lucebuce12
Member
It'll be uploaded to view on his website later!
Clueless Gamer tends to be hit or miss, mostly miss. But those hits can be really darn funny.
Clueless Gamer tends to be hit or miss, mostly miss. But those hits can be really darn funny.
It's funny because they added him to the game for a special but never released the skin to the public for some reason.
I noticed that too. As an outsider, who just recently became interested in 2D fighters (after casually playing only 3D fighters for years), I was really surprised to find out how much hate NRS games actually get on this forum. On the other hand Capcom fighters get a complete pass for their bare bones content and scammy business practices.
A lot of unfair Injustice 2 bashing was also going on in the Which one will sell better, Marvel vs Capcom Infinte or Injustice 2 -thread. Comments like "Injustice 2 will sell more, but for all the wrong reasons" even managed to annoy me greatly, someone who isn't passionate about Capcom fighters or NRS fighters. Seriously, since when are a wealth of content and great accessability for everyone wrong reasons?
DR2K
Banned
Improved =/= good. Battle animations leave a lot to be desired in NRS games, but they are getting better. You can hate the animations and enjoy the game, they're not mutually exclusive. They're just visuals at the end of the day. I'm not looking at Mileenas torso and feet mid battle, nor am I standing in one place longer than a few seconds.
Finaika
Member
This forum makes fun of DC way more than Marvel too.
SF fans are salty as hell, i stopped going to local gathering because of their salt and rage. When i take games off them they start spouting shit about how characters are unbalance while blowing a pack of cigarette in your face. Even though they are very respectable outside the game, but when you start winning you can see the writing on the red angry faces.
Btw, its used to be the same with Dota vs LOL and other mobas.
Is it really great accessibility? since I don't think any of the NRS fighters have been that accessible. They have good story modes but they are completely unfun to watch which I do for other fighters.
regarding your first point, Capcom and SFV doesn't get a pass at all. It gets even more drive by shit posts.
That's true. A lot of comments in the thread that I mentioned earlier started either with:
"I'm a huge Marvel fan, but..."
Or a:
"I'm a huge Capcom fan, but..."
I felt really bad for NRS and for DC, lol.
lucebuce12
Member
Don't be, this game's probably gonna sell over double what SFV's sold.
That Dude John
Member
I dunno what threads y'all been reading where SFV/Capcom gets a pass. It probably ranks above "NRS Animation Jankiness" as things complained about on GAF.
