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Installing game every Act (MGS4). Is this a good trend of game loading?

Guled said:
who cares about multiple disks? Its not coming on 360, and having more then 1 disk would not eliminate the install times.

No I know.

I'm saying, when the whole "lol 360 would need 10 discs" thing was at it's peak, people were saying how shit it would be because of multiple discs. In the end, we were given a similar experience despite having one Blu-ray disc.

It wouldn't eliminate loading times. It would eliminate install times though. The fact that Kojima and his programming team choose to be lazy is another issue.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
2 Minutes Turkish said:
The fact that Kojima and his programming team choose to be lazy is another issue.

I don't know how anyone can play MGS4 and call Kojipro lazy. Boggles the fucking mind.

Installs suck. Loading sucks. But let's not go overboard here.
 
urk said:
I don't know how anyone can play MGS4 and call Kojipro lazy. Boggles the fucking mind.

Installs suck. Loading sucks. But let's not go overboard here.

The laziness refers to programming only. Not design.

The fact that you have to go through TONNES of loading screens on top of around 4 or 5 installs smack of lazy.

It was also in referrence to the whole "Can it be done on 360?" question. If Kojima and his programmers weren't so lazy, Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

You'll find devs that deal with the 360 on a regular or exclusive basis have got compression almost down to a fine art. Koji could learn a thing or 2 here. That's where the laziness comment comes from.

Edit: I couldn't care less if the game came to 360. I own all the Metal Gears, and didn't waste my time re-buying 2 on Xbox. I was merely trying to reinforce my point about lazy programming.
 

Guled

Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
The laziness refers to programming only. Not design.

The fact that you have to go through TONNES of loading screens on top of around 4 or 5 installs smack of lazy.

It was also in referrence to the whole "Can it be done on 360?" question. If Kojima and his programmers weren't so lazy, Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

You'll find devs that deal with the 360 on a regular or exclusive basis have got compression almost down to a fine art. Koji could learn a thing or 2 here. That's where the laziness comment comes from.

Edit: I couldn't care less if the game came to 360. I own all the Metal Gears, and didn't waste my time re-buying 2 on Xbox. I was merely trying to reinforce my point about lazy programming.
I don't think having to install the game makes you a lazy progrmmer, and given the scope of the game and how much is going on, the programmers have done a good job. But you have to remember that each act is totally different. All of them are new locations and use different assets. Its like each act are different games. That is no excuse, but given what Koji Pro did, they are not lazy at all.
 

Dr_Cogent

Banned
The game obviously needs it. A full install may take up just too damn much space. Who knows.

Talk of laziness is pretty ridiculous as well. I'm sure the guys at Konami are far sharper than 99.99% of GAF when it comes to game design and implementation.

No real developer is going to call them lazy without having any solid concrete proof.
 

tha_con

Banned
2 Minutes Turkish said:
The laziness refers to programming only. Not design.

The fact that you have to go through TONNES of loading screens on top of around 4 or 5 installs smack of lazy.

It was also in referrence to the whole "Can it be done on 360?" question. If Kojima and his programmers weren't so lazy, Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

You'll find devs that deal with the 360 on a regular or exclusive basis have got compression almost down to a fine art. Koji could learn a thing or 2 here. That's where the laziness comment comes from.

Edit: I couldn't care less if the game came to 360. I own all the Metal Gears, and didn't waste my time re-buying 2 on Xbox. I was merely trying to reinforce my point about lazy programming.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read in my life :lol
 

roxya

Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

If they could easily make it fit, why didn't they compress it to a single layer BD? Would have been more profitable for them to do that, surely.
 

zoku88

Member
Compression means that you have to tax the system more, btw. It isn't free. It actually takes power to uncompress things...
 

Speevy

Banned
I think the more important thing is that it doesn't NEED to come to the Xbox 360. It's already sold better than any PS3 exclusive to date.
 

zenbot

Member
Speevy said:
I think the more important thing is that it doesn't NEED to come to the Xbox 360. It's already sold better than any PS3 exclusive to date.
It's not a matter of need. Why should Konami leave that money on the table? Assuming, that is, that it wouldn't cost more to produce a port than it would to make it.
 

Guled

Member
zenbot said:
It's not a matter of need. Why should Konami leave that money on the table? Assuming, that is, that it wouldn't cost more to produce a port than it would to make it.
Same reason as with Halo, Mass Effect, and almost any 360 exclusive. Also, didn't mgs2 for the xbox flop hard?
 

Jammy

Banned
Speevy said:
I think the more important thing is that it doesn't NEED to come to the Xbox 360. It's already sold better than any PS3 exclusive to date.

A good point, but that's not saying much, especially with the bundling Sony does (Europe mainly). :lol
 

zenbot

Member
Guled said:
Same reason as with Halo, Mass Effect, and almost any 360 exclusive. Also, didn't mgs2 for the xbox flop hard?
Most of the 360's important exclusives are published by MS, and they've got an interest in keeping them tied to the system. Konami aren't invested in the PS3 in the same way.

MGS2 for the Xbox did flop hard, and I do remember an interview with Kojima in which he stated, basically, NEVER AGAIN. But the market has changed pretty radically since that port.
 

le.phat

Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
The laziness refers to programming only. Not design.

The fact that you have to go through TONNES of loading screens on top of around 4 or 5 installs smack of lazy.

It was also in referrence to the whole "Can it be done on 360?" question. If Kojima and his programmers weren't so lazy, Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

You'll find devs that deal with the 360 on a regular or exclusive basis have got compression almost down to a fine art. Koji could learn a thing or 2 here. That's where the laziness comment comes from.

Edit: I couldn't care less if the game came to 360. I own all the Metal Gears, and didn't waste my time re-buying 2 on Xbox. I was merely trying to reinforce my point about lazy programming.


you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you :lol
 

zoku88

Member
Guled said:
Same reason as with Halo, Mass Effect, and almost any 360 exclusive. Also, didn't mgs2 for the xbox flop hard?
Well, those two you named weren't the best to use, since those were published by Microsoft. :lol

Ace Combat 6 might be a better one...
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
so here's my question.

Why is it that these big time PS3 games require installs to work correctly while 360 and Wii games do not?
 

JudgeN

Member
Htown said:
so here's my question.

Why is it that these big time PS3 games require installs to work correctly while 360 and Wii games do not?

Every PS3 has a hard drive you be foolish not to use it.
 

Dragon

Banned
Htown said:
so here's my question.

Why is it that these big time PS3 games require installs to work correctly while 360 and Wii games do not?

Work correctly? Uh what?

And let's see, what does the PS3 have that the other two consoles don't? Hmmm...

Could it be, a HDD in every console? Bingo!
 

Bulla564

Banned
I was wondering why this thread was always around...

I knew there were probably fools calling Kojima and his team lazy...

:lol :lol :lol
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
TheBranca18 said:
Work correctly? Uh what?

And let's see, what does the PS3 have that the other two consoles don't? Hmmm...

Could it be, a HDD in every console? Bingo!

By "work correctly", I am pretty sure he is just pointing out that there are multiplatform games that require installs on the PS3, but the loading time / performance difference is little to none when compared to the 360 counterpart which obviously doesn't require an install. Two games that I own and have played extensively on both consoles, which illustrate this point, are Grand Theft Auto IV and Devil May Cry 4. GTAIV seems to even take a bit longer to load initially on the PS3 than the 360 which is simply running off of a DVD.

Some games like Lost Planet, for example, require big installs and perform even worse than their 360 counterpart, but I am pretty sure that is just because of poor programming.
 

DrXym

Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
The laziness refers to programming only. Not design.

The fact that you have to go through TONNES of loading screens on top of around 4 or 5 installs smack of lazy.

It was also in referrence to the whole "Can it be done on 360?" question. If Kojima and his programmers weren't so lazy, Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

You'll find devs that deal with the 360 on a regular or exclusive basis have got compression almost down to a fine art. Koji could learn a thing or 2 here. That's where the laziness comment comes from.

Edit: I couldn't care less if the game came to 360. I own all the Metal Gears, and didn't waste my time re-buying 2 on Xbox. I was merely trying to reinforce my point about lazy programming.

Who says they aren't using compression? Chances are (as with most games), level data is packed into an enormous file and at least run-length encoded, possibly more. It is probably faster to decompress data on the fly than to load the full data off the disk. Perhaps you mean lossy compression. But again, who says they're not doing it already?

As for laziness, I don't think so. Kojima would snap his fingers and his programmers would do what they're told.

Perhaps it just didn't occur to anyone that mandatory installs are an increasingly hated facet of PS3 gaming. My own feeling is that if they can have a detailed render of Snake smoking a cigarette while the preinstall is happening, they could have cached data within the game. There is plenty of down time in the game - logos during startup, menus, cutscenes, lulls in the action where they could have spawned a background thread to be caching data. Perhaps it might have still have meant occasional progress bars if the caching was not completed, but I still think that is far preferable to forcing people to sit there for 10 minutes.
 

DrXym

Member
JudgeN said:
Every PS3 has a hard drive you be foolish not to use it.

It doesn't mean it has to be used in such an obnoxious manner. Games like Oblivion cache data on the HDD in the background.
 

RoH

Member
DrXym said:
It doesn't mean it has to be used in such an obnoxious manner. Games like Oblivion cache data on the HDD in the background.

But Oblivion also does not have very stable frame rate, and can have to long loads. Its a trade off.
 

1stStrike

Banned
I actually don't mind the installs..while it's installing, I grab a drink or a snack, surf gaf, see if there's any other site up and then when I come back to it..it's long since been finished installing. I think some of you guys are too impatient =\
 

zoku88

Member
DrXym said:
Who says they aren't using compression? Chances are (as with most games), level data is packed into an enormous file and at least run-length encoded, possibly more. It is probably faster to decompress data on the fly than to load the full data off the disk. Perhaps you mean lossy compression. But again, who says they're not doing it already?

As for laziness, I don't think so. Kojima would snap his fingers and his programmers would do what they're told.

Perhaps it just didn't occur to anyone that mandatory installs are an increasingly hated facet of PS3 gaming. My own feeling is that if they can have a detailed render of Snake smoking a cigarette while the preinstall is happening, they could have cached data within the game. There is plenty of down time in the game - logos during startup, menus, cutscenes, lulls in the action where they could have spawned a background thread to be caching data. Perhaps it might have still have meant occasional progress bars if the caching was not completed, but I still think that is far preferable to forcing people to sit there for 10 minutes.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I mean, installing on consoles is pretty much 'cache'-ing data onto the HDD...

And you don't know what kind of effects doing the background thread could have. It could lower the framerate or something...
 
zoku88 said:
Compression means that you have to tax the system more, btw. It isn't free. It actually takes power to uncompress things...

That's not the same. There's compressing into a smaller unusable file to save space which then has to take up processing cycles to unpack (like zip files on windows), then there is reducing the sizes of textures, scripts, movies, and etc to make them smaller from the beginning, but worse quality. Like taking those two pre-rendered movies and making them a lower bitrate - you have to find a balance of quality versus filesize.
 
Zedsdeadbaby said:
That's not the same. There's compressing into a smaller unusable file to save space which then has to take up processing cycles to unpack (like zip files on windows), then there is reducing the sizes of textures, scripts, movies, and etc to make them smaller from the beginning, but worse quality. Like taking those two pre-rendered movies and making them a lower bitrate - you have to find a balance of quality versus filesize.

First of all there is lossless compression, and secondly bandwidth restrictions are much greater than the CPU cycles needed to "decompress" something. Considering how powerful the Cell is supposed to be you would imagine it would be quite good at this.
 
i don't think it's a good thing for consoles... same with the mandatory install thing... but i also don't see it as a big deal really.

last gen, streaming seemed like magic technology. games that didn't load... incredible! this gen it seems like we've not had so many streaming games, and if anything things have gotten worse.

all the same, even if this stays pretty common this generation, i think it'll disappear next generation. i know the day will never come when every game has no load times, but i'm sure we'll move away from the manadatory installs, because i'm sure that next gen we won't be using a storage media in it's infancy as happened with the PS3 and blu-ray.
 

DrXym

Member
zoku88 said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I mean, installing on consoles is pretty much 'cache'-ing data onto the HDD...

And you don't know what kind of effects doing the background thread could have. It could lower the framerate or something...

Caching is where the game goes "I need file X, so let's look on the HDD for it... oh it's not there so we'll grab it from disk and store it on HDD so its there the next time". Where X are bitmaps, models, level data, sounds, whatever. Streaming would be caching where the game does all this in realtime, attempting to grab the data just before its needed. But caching could be fetching files for the next level while you're playing the current one, or even while you're sat in the inventory menu, or in the start screen.

You're right I don't know what the game is doing in the background, but MGS has copious cutscenes and down time. It must be possible to make it work. Games like Uncharted are arguably as graphically demanding yet they manage it with virtually no popin or load times.
 

John_B

Member
DrXym said:
You're right I don't know what the game is doing in the background, but MGS has copious cutscenes and down time. It must be possible to make it work. Games like Uncharted are arguably as graphically demanding yet they manage it with virtually no popin or load times.
Skip cutscene in Uncharted = Lengthy loading screen.
Skip cutscene in MGS4 = Next cutscene or brief level loading screen.

In MGS4 you can skip everything (expect the act installations and less than a handful of short cutscenes). Uncharted you will either watch the cutscene or watch the loading screen for a longer period of time.

All the MGS4 cutscenes are interactive and rendered in real time, the cutscenes in Uncharted are not.

There are different approaches but they all come with trade-offs.
 

DrXym

Member
John_B said:
Skip cutscene in Uncharted = Lengthy loading screen.
Skip cutscene in MGS4 = Next cutscene or brief level loading screen.

In MGS4 you can skip everything (expect the act installations and less than a handful of short cutscenes). Uncharted you will either watch the cutscene or watch the loading screen for a longer period of time.

All the MGS4 cutscenes are interactive and rendered in real time, the cutscenes in Uncharted are not.

There are different approaches but they all come with trade-offs.

I can't recall any lengthy loading screen in Uncharted from skipping cutscenes. But even if my recollection is faulty, I don't see the problem if it happens once, and the data gets cached and you never see it again.
 
DrXym said:
I can't recall any lengthy loading screen in Uncharted from skipping cutscenes. But even if my recollection is faulty, I don't see the problem if it happens once, and the data gets cached and you never see it again.

Yeah...I want to call bullshit on that, too. Uncharted is a technical wonder on the PS3.
 

jett

D-Member
John_B said:
Skip cutscene in Uncharted = Lengthy loading screen.
Skip cutscene in MGS4 = Next cutscene or brief level loading screen.

In MGS4 you can skip everything (expect the act installations and less than a handful of short cutscenes). Uncharted you will either watch the cutscene or watch the loading screen for a longer period of time.

All the MGS4 cutscenes are interactive and rendered in real time, the cutscenes in Uncharted are not.

There are different approaches but they all come with trade-offs.

This post is wrong. Skip cut-scene in Uncharted = You IMMEDIATELY start playing. MGS4 is just full of fail. And full of loading times too, despite all this bullshit.
 

Philthy

Member
Htown said:
so here's my question.

Why is it that these big time PS3 games require installs to work correctly while 360 and Wii games do not?

Mostly because of the drive speed. Faster Blu-Ray drives are just coming to market. For developers to keep "sane" load times, they have decided to just dump the most used data to the drive to keep things speedy. The 360 doesn't do this because the drive is DVD based, and is quite fast since they've been out forever. Unfortunately they also chose those loudest DVD drives on the planet. My DVD drive in my PC is pretty much silent. Trade offs, I guess.

That said, I don't think the MGS4 load times are anything to complain about until a few years down the line where we start deleting and reinstalling games everytime we want to play them. THEN you'll hear a lot of people complaining.

I also was never bothered by the 30 second GTA4 and Halo3 loading, either.
 

AKS

Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
The laziness refers to programming only. Not design.

The fact that you have to go through TONNES of loading screens on top of around 4 or 5 installs smack of lazy.

It was also in referrence to the whole "Can it be done on 360?" question. If Kojima and his programmers weren't so lazy, Metal Gear 4 could easily squeeze on to 2 DL DVDs. Compression is your friend.

You'll find devs that deal with the 360 on a regular or exclusive basis have got compression almost down to a fine art. Koji could learn a thing or 2 here. That's where the laziness comment comes from.

Edit: I couldn't care less if the game came to 360. I own all the Metal Gears, and didn't waste my time re-buying 2 on Xbox. I was merely trying to reinforce my point about lazy programming.


Whenever we need a good laugh, we now know where to look. Your posts are ridiculous yet comedic gold in so many ways. The part about you thinking any of this makes sense is the most amusing.
 

John_B

Member
I may have done a fuck up. I have not played Uncharted for a while, and I may have remembered some details from an alternative reality. Uncharted only has initial chapter loading. My apologies.
 
Guled said:
who cares about multiple disks? Its not coming on 360, and having more then 1 disk would not eliminate the install times.
there is soo much goin on under the hood, streaming from the disc and hardrive is needed. end of story
 
In my opinion it's not a good trend (for any platform, this has nothing to do with PS3).

Does it make MGS4 a bad game? Don't be stupid.

What we need is more stealth streaming/install like stuff, and all the nextgen platforms should be able to handle it with careful coding.
 

bumpkin

Member
Well fuck me. I didn't know how many acts the game had until the OP decided to incorrectly spoiler tag the number of acts.

Dick.

And stop whining.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
andrewfee said:
Oh, come on, it's almost correct. There are only two "video based" cutscenes in MGS4. The rest of the cutscenes are realtime.

Uncharted is the opposite (a few smaller cutscenes are realtime, but most are video).

Uncharted has more popups. Why do whiners ignore this fact?
It's hardly an issue. You generally only see it when you die and reload (or first arrive in an area). It's a good trade-off.

Stuff like Mass Effect on 360 was 100x worse in this regard.
 

ypo

Member
What am I missing here? What's the this *trend* that some are mouthing off about? It's really not a big deal just think of the them as a 2-3 minutes load time for each act. Could've been shorter of course but it is what it is.
 

Bizzyb

Banned
Installs are the new load times....

...oh wait.


No, installs are NOT a good thing, esp if there are multiple ones throughout the game for EVERY play through. Stop trying to defend this shit. yes it sucks, is there anything we can do about it besides complain? No, i doubt it.

So what we are left with are people either defending it (for whatever reasons) or people against it.
 
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