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iOS + Android Gaming Destroying Nintendo and Sony
- Thread starter RubxQub
- Start date
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I think so. But you don't even need Steam as Minecraft and other titles prove. No-name developers using no big-name portals have been successful before.jman2050 said:
There's no need to evangelise iOS as the potential savior of indies or anything else, outlets have always existed, as nice as it is to have another.
The only new trend I see is that new garage developers now often try to charge a sum on iOS (similar to XBLIG) while previously their first efforts would likely have been free before they felt confident to try and charge for the games. That's just a difference, not a plus or a minus, they could have charged on other platforms in the past if they wanted but I guess competition stopped them. It will probably shift either way on iOS too as times change and people expect more even from their $1 titles, nevermind how piracy will likely also come to affect the bigger releases if it continues being as easy as I hear.
Anyway I'm only speaking for relative short term here, I think I'd be a fool to anticipate what will happen in more than 5 years considering how rapidly technology changes and istuff could well be old news due to some hybrid or altogether new thing.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Why don't you post some of your own sources and explain why you think so in a rational manner that doesn't only take Apple's own benefit or garage developers' benefit in account compared to publisher benefits on other platforms instead of put down everyone who disagrees with these skewed graphs with a half baked comment?Burger said:
Fusebox said:
and that isn't sustainable. If not enough people buy the DS version because they're holding off for the $1.99 iOS version, there won't be enough money in the DS version to cover the costs of the iOS version.
Its an 'eating your own tail' model that'll fail.
I like Sony's model of traditional games on a capable platform with physical controls, plus a decent minis/independent delivery model for smaller games. If they can get enough of the better iOS games onto Vita that could make for a really compelling platform.
Burger
Member
Alextended said:
You just need to look at the sales figures for modern smartphones, the price points for games on the respective App Stores to know that portable gaming as we know it is in the shit.
I had a PSP once, had about 6 games for it. I've already spent more money on my iPhone, it's quick, accessible and immediate. Best of all, it's cheap and bite sized. Oh and I don't have to cary a PSP anywhere.
Nintendo cannot charge £30 for Super Mario Land and expect that sort of price point to remain viable.
Times have changed. It's like Borders expecting business as usual in the face of everything the internet allowed consumers to do.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Elaborate please. How does looking at the price points show handheld gaming is doomed? I guess if price point is the only factor then every non-Apple gaming is doomed, not just handhelds, because hey now you can connect your iStuff to your TVs also, huh? Oh wait, there are free games also, does that difference in price point show every gaming including Apple is doomed because free is less than even $1-10 and we ignore the millions of people that do buy shit you think is too expensive?Burger said:
Amazing. Because people were arguing absolutely nobody anywhere uses iOS, and you just proved them so wrong with well backed up hard facts. While the PSP was totally the most successful platform in the West so it not doing too well does show handheld gaming is in trouble. I have an iPad2 myself, I'm still getting a 3DS or Vita for the games I want and I've barely spent anything on the App Store. But anecdotal evidence and personal opinions don't dictate what happens to the world I'm afraid.
Why not? It's certainly the best selling 3DS game yet and spurred hardware sales in a big way, with an opening that's the best opening for a 3D Mario game yet, in Japan for now. And why do you think that even if some day the price point isn't viable, that they can't just reduce the price point instead of give up on games and/or flock to iOS? Or do you also think that everything is going to be decided in this generation, within the next five years the dooming will have already happened for sure, so there's no time for anyone outside Apple to shift business focus to digital distribution over retail (a whole different topic that would be discussed regardless of Apple)?
Have they? I see all the publishers and developers still making games on all the platforms, from browser and facebook games, to phones and whatever else is out there, with most of their investments going to the consoles, handhelds and the many times over "doomed" PCs. Where's the change?
Burger
Member
Alextended said:
It's a trend, I can't prove anything, but the trend is that gaming on phones is on the up, and gaming on dedicated devices like PSPVita/3DS is on the wane. That's a trend.
It's not conclusive, it's not proof, it's a trend. Nintendo has the foresight to slash the price of the 3DS after lacklustre sales, Sony shouldn't even bother launching the Vita in my opinion.
As for the rest of your diatribe, I don't have time to write a feature length argument. Lets just say I started doing the same thing with Flash proponents earlier in the year before Flash was pulled off mobiles. The writing is on the wall, you can't prove anything but the trends are clear.
AbsoluteZero
Banned
Burger said:
It's almost as if you don't like it, how could anyone like it, mirite?
I fuckin' love my iPhone. The camera's convenient (Though not replacing my P&S anytime soon.) the web browser works fantastically, the GPS has saved my ass a few times, I use it for playing music in my car and on the go, I occasionally use it as a video player via Netflix and video I've purchased from iTunes, and for text messaging and e-mail it's fantastic. And, of course, it's a great phone as well.
It just doesn't play games well. But that's not what I bought it for.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Source? It seems 3DS is on the rise rather than declining and PSVita has yet to be launched.Burger said:
A trend for what? You've yet to show what this trend does to harm handheld and other gaming.
The DS and PSP referenced in these charts being platforms on life support with their successors soon to take completely over their legacy doesn't qualify as such.
And that diatribe which was nothing but common sense just easily countered the logic behind all your assumptions and all your conclusions considering that even assuming some of your assumptions were correct, nevermind the lack of evidence, that wouldn't necessarily spell doom for the platforms either. You should have used a car analogy.Burger said:
mrklaw said:
This this and more this.
I'm actually *happy* that there are more outlets for games. Hell, I wish Sega was still making consoles. And Atari. And and etc.
But if you don't think the race to the bottom barrel pricing affects development, the type of development, and the content of said development I've got an iPhone 5 to sell you.
When was the last time you saw an advertisement for an iOS game on TV? Oh, that's right, you didn't. There's a reason for it, and it has everything to do with the accepted price point not bringing in enough revenue.
I have no problem saying that Brain Age 2011 should be a $5-10 download on the 3DS - because it had damn well better not be $35. And it makes a perfect fit for that kind of input device (minus capacitive stylii of course). But a game like Uncharted GA or Mario 3D Land, as had been mentioned, cannot be sustained at any accepted iOS store price point.
Resident Evil 4 iOS cost little money to port, because the content already existed. But the original game absolutely cost a ton of money and time and only the $50 retail pricepoint could sustain it. A race to the bottom has been done before, and it didn't end well. For the sake of your $5 ports, you wouldn't want it to happen again.
Both my mobile phone and my tablet has Flash. And it's great. Youtube HTML5 still sucks, and (as an example) I can view last night's daily show or last week's family guy episode or watch my content provider's (Rogers, in my case) live TV via their website. Your mobile should have it too. It is an inexcusable omission from any modern smart device, even if you and I both believe Flash sucks.
devildog820
Member
Firstly, I was not claiming iOS only. I mean mobile platforms such as iOS/Android/Windows Phone. When I talked about the exclusive, I meant any mobile platform that's not
I was not saying that touch screens can provide the same experience. In their current technological form, they clearly cannot. But the controller addon I held for the iPhone was pretty slick and wasn't even professionally produced.
Infinity Blade was not a special exclusive. It was neat, but not deep and was boring after a few days (at least to me). Plus, it was a new franchise and not established. The sea change will come when an established franchise publishes a first run game on the mobile platforms. That's why I used Dragon Quest as an example.
Indie games, of course, have always existed. But now they have the chance to get to a much larger market and the costs aren't nearly as prohibitive. Therefore it follows that we will see more indie devs taking risks because it won't bankrupt them.
Many people in this thread keep looking at the current state of the market and thinking it will go on forever. If you think Nintendo's management isn't afraid of the current trends, then you are misinformed. Looking to yourself and your friends and presenting that anecdotal evidence as a reason all the pundits are wrong is folly. Think about how successful the DS was and think about Brain Age. How many people bought a DS for Brain Age or other casual games like that? Now think about all those people just using their cell phone instead.
No, cell phone gaming is not the same. But it's where the market is going. I would love to play a DS/Vita game on my iPhone and just carry around a little controller extension for the serious games. That's anecdotal, of course. GAFfers and others will always want a dedicated system. The problem remains that that market is going to be relatively too small in the future.
edit: People are also arguing about the super low prices on the App Stores. That will change too. People have already showed they are willing to pay higher prices for quality apps. Prices have edged up as more and more users trust the App Stores and learn how to use them. Sure, people are gonna still buy more $0.99 games, but other games will gross much higher revenue.
I was not saying that touch screens can provide the same experience. In their current technological form, they clearly cannot. But the controller addon I held for the iPhone was pretty slick and wasn't even professionally produced.
Infinity Blade was not a special exclusive. It was neat, but not deep and was boring after a few days (at least to me). Plus, it was a new franchise and not established. The sea change will come when an established franchise publishes a first run game on the mobile platforms. That's why I used Dragon Quest as an example.
Indie games, of course, have always existed. But now they have the chance to get to a much larger market and the costs aren't nearly as prohibitive. Therefore it follows that we will see more indie devs taking risks because it won't bankrupt them.
Many people in this thread keep looking at the current state of the market and thinking it will go on forever. If you think Nintendo's management isn't afraid of the current trends, then you are misinformed. Looking to yourself and your friends and presenting that anecdotal evidence as a reason all the pundits are wrong is folly. Think about how successful the DS was and think about Brain Age. How many people bought a DS for Brain Age or other casual games like that? Now think about all those people just using their cell phone instead.
No, cell phone gaming is not the same. But it's where the market is going. I would love to play a DS/Vita game on my iPhone and just carry around a little controller extension for the serious games. That's anecdotal, of course. GAFfers and others will always want a dedicated system. The problem remains that that market is going to be relatively too small in the future.
edit: People are also arguing about the super low prices on the App Stores. That will change too. People have already showed they are willing to pay higher prices for quality apps. Prices have edged up as more and more users trust the App Stores and learn how to use them. Sure, people are gonna still buy more $0.99 games, but other games will gross much higher revenue.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Less prohibitive than zero and larger market than potential millions depending on the appeal of the game (of course a few thousands or hundreds of thousands are more common, with many failures on top, but that's the case for iOS too)? You do know I was implying PCs as a platform that has always nurtured indie development, right? Seems that you're just a bit ignorant about some facets of the industry you're discussing. And besides, if you get a single semi success anywhere even console development costs become a non issue for someone who was previously broke. Handheld devkits and licences haven't been prohibitive in quite some time and console dev kits are getting cheaper too.devildog820 said:
I agree, people look at Apple making a killing and think it will continue forever and ever until they kill everything else off, nevermind evidence showing otherwise or the fact a new mass market trend could show up 5 years from now from existing or new companies.
devildog820
Member
Alextended said:
I am only talking in the context of mobile gaming, which is a different animal in most cases. When I talk about prohibitive, I mean Nintendo's and Sony's terms for their stores. Better mobile games could come out of this, is what I was getting at.
Let's not resort to name calling. You are making good points already.
devildog820
Member
Alextended said:
Yup. In no way do I think Apple will dominate forever. But until the next big jump in mobile tech comes, cell phones (not just iPhones) are it.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Why? Money is the same regardless of where it comes from. An indie dev puts out a game in hopes of making money from what he loves, and the platform being mobile or immobile doesn't affect that, only the potential success. You spoke as if iOS is the savior of indies. I simply disagreed with that as indies didn't need a savior. And yes, it's nice to have another viable platform, I never said it isn't. I don't think I name called but whatever.
In the end, maybe some of the casual DS crowd will move to phones and tablets. But even kids will want a 3DS once games like Pokemon show up, nevermind the more serious gamer. Nintendo and other companies can still attract both casual and core gamers in their own way. If they fail or not is up to their own decisions, not phones.
Phones are what? Going by 3DS it seems its issues had nothing to do with phones as it's picking up pace in the same manner systems before it did once the pricing and games were there. Why would anyone assume Vita doesn't have the potential to do similar based on Sony's own decisions and instead Phones have to dominate everything within the next 5 years (since major business shifts can be done past that by handheld developers also if the issues mentioned here do become a real problem, it's not like they've remained static up until now, a few years ago we were discussing Nintendo similar to how Apple is discussed now, and other companies still did more than fine despite that as previous audiences for certain types of games don't disappear just because new audiences are added to the pool).
In the end, maybe some of the casual DS crowd will move to phones and tablets. But even kids will want a 3DS once games like Pokemon show up, nevermind the more serious gamer. Nintendo and other companies can still attract both casual and core gamers in their own way. If they fail or not is up to their own decisions, not phones.
Marty Chinn
Member
mrklaw said:
This! Everyone read this! I keep screaming this and people still don't seem to get it. This is the bubble that's going to burst with massive fallout that will hurt both developers and consumers in the end. People don't seem to get it.
People don't understand that just because there is a surge of popularity and a rising trend that it means that it's a viable model. We see it all the time. The dot.com era, Netflix, social gaming, and now this.
If you're ok with shorter and more simple games, then that's fine, but it's the death of higher quality, more in depth games that we'll be losing as a result of this change in handheld gaming. I don't deny that people are moving towards iOS; in fact I fully see it, and that's the problem. It just amazes me that people seem to think everything can be dramatically lowered in price with no side effects. People think they can get rid of the $30 to $60 game for a 99 cent game and still get the same experience. People want to cut their $70 cable bill to pay $8 a month for the same content. What crazy unrealistic expectations do people have?
Gamecocks625
Member
Buzzati said:
In terms of the casual market, I'd guess so. But it's not a matter of "I had a DS but now I want to play touch screen bite sized games." I'd say it's more of a case of the casual DS crowd from a few years ago now have iPhones and iPads that do a whole lot more and are with them a whole lot more...which also happen to have a great game libraries.
Last Hearth
Member
Marty Chinn said:
Meh, most people don't want that level of depth in their handheld games, and for those that do there will always be ports. They are porting FF III and IV now, in a year they will be porting FF VII and VIII and in five years they can port FFXII and FFXIII.
Last Hearth said:
But those original games wouldn't have existed had it not been for $50(+ in some of those FF's cases) pricetag. Do you not understand what he's trying to say?
Some people may want handheld gaming to turn into a 10-minute-on-the-can timewaster, and that's fine. We've all been there. This is certainly not "most" people, though. Some people also want meatier experiences and race-to-the-bottom pricing cannot sustain those experiences in any fashion - not the least of which is development cost.
This.Takao said:
It really speaks for the glaring ignorance of the people pushing this nonsense that they make such fundamental mistakes.
Haha, what did I just say? The very unfavorable Yen to Dollar exchange rate is a primary reason to why many Japanese companies (Nintendo and Sony included) are taking a hit in the results right now. You'd fail a high-school student for a blunder like that, and these guys are supposed to be professional analysts? Baffling.article said:
Last Hearth
Member
StevieP said:
You're missing my point, which is that you don't need a dedicated hand-held system/ to keep that ecosystem going. Instead of porting PSP games they can port PS2 and Xbox games, and in the future PS3 and 360 games, etc. Unless you think the home console market is dying, there will be no shortage of olders games they can port over to mobiles devices on the cheap.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
If these devices can kill handhelds why can't they kill home systems also when they start getting their games and connecting to TVs becomes more common and they retain all the traits and price benefits that have people here convinced are killing handhelds? Makes no sense to believe they'll kill handhelds but leave consoles alone really. Makes much sense to believe all can survive especially after seeing 3DS issues had little to do with phones and everything to do with Nintendo's own reverted decisions.Last Hearth said:
commish said:
Did you actually read any of this thread or did you just perform confirmation bias based on a study that's been argued to be flawed several times over by many different people?
Last Hearth said:
You can't sustain an entire market on firesale ports. I'd love to see them try just for curiosity's sake but it won't work.
Jokeropia said:
I only wish that were true. The sad fact is that most people are terribly ignorant of subjects to do with economics and finance. I know too many highly educated people for whom the topic is a mystery wrapped in a conundrum wrapped in apathy to believe that these topics are adequately addressed in primary education.
(Talkin' 'bout 'merrca here. Fuck Yeah!)
Last Hearth
Member
Alextended said:
No, because they are completely different markets. Playing on the big screen on your couch at home is a completely different experience from playing on the train on your way to work/school. That's like saying being able to watch movies on your iPhone/iPad is going to kill the big screen TV market.
Burger
Member
Alextended said:
Nintendo is preparing to unleash the full force of its development and marketing artillery against Apple after profits tumbled at the Japanese giant for the first time in six years. [ ]
Satoru Iwata, the Nintendo president, is understood to have told his senior executives recently to regard the battle with Sony as a victory already won and to treat Apple, and its iPhone and iPad devices, as the enemy of the future .
UK Times Online.
So Nintendo see Apple as a major threat, but you don't?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I don't see a direct quoted source, do you? Underlining the site doesn't make it more likely. And it's one thing to see them as a so called enemy and another to believe they will kill off everything else. Nintendo certainly didn't kill off Sony and Microsoft even if they think they've won which I doubt they do. Do you?
Why not respond properly to our little discussion before moving on to other things anyway?
But hey I guess I should be thankful if that's the type of source and evidence you can come up to support your assumptions and conclusion with.
Why not respond properly to our little discussion before moving on to other things anyway?
But hey I guess I should be thankful if that's the type of source and evidence you can come up to support your assumptions and conclusion with.
Last Hearth
Member
jman2050 said:
You're not seriously asserting that saying multi-purpose mobile devices will replace dedicated hand-held gaming devices is the same as saying that the same devices will replace home-theaters and large screen TVs?
That's what you're going with? Really?
Last Hearth said:
Nobody said anything about large screen TVs. We're talking about consoles.
You said "don't worry, there will be tons of consoles to port at bargain basement prices"
TV docks are commonplace for many tablets that aren't apple. One HDMI plug, some gamepads... and what is your tablet now?
jman2050 said:
Every study known to mankind since the beginning of time is "flawed" in some way, especially in the eyes of those who do not like the study's outcome. That doesn't change the fact that the trend is moving away from dedicated handhelds.
djplaeskool
Member
I was going to say something...but you know what?
F*ck this debate.
It's pointless economic bickering and soothsaying based on trends by people who aren't economists.
I'm done.
F*ck this debate.
It's pointless economic bickering and soothsaying based on trends by people who aren't economists.
I'm done.
*goes to play more FF Type-0*
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Apple too actually.StevieP said:
http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/accessories/
I'm pretty sure you can do more than just mirroring too, like having the "action' show just on the TV and different GUI only stuff on the iPad in a game.
I mean I think it was the reason people were calling it a Nintendo Wii U killer on top of everything else some time ago so yeah I think it can do that stuff too, lol.
commish said:
No one has yet demonstrated an actual trend. You have the disparate trends of the burgeoning smartphone game market growing in revenue and the transitional period between dedicated handhelds, but no one has actually proven a trend associating both together.
Most of the actual data we have points to the opposite, that both industries are trending on their own terms.
XOMTOR
Member
Burger said:
So you traded access to some of the best games anywhere for the convenience of a multifunction device? Games like Crisis Core, MGS Peace Walker, the God of War games, Resistance Retribution, Little Big Planet, Grand Theft Auto, Kingdom Hearts, Killzone Liberation, Persona etc. etc. Not to mention access to the PSOne's huge library.
I'm pretty sure they can, it's Mario. It'll sell. Tons of it.