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[Manny Calavera]

You think No Country For Old Men is well written? One of the most contrived plots i've seen. Manchester By The Sea has a really basic story. Arrival is also pretty over the top considering how 'realistic' it portrays itself as given it's genre. It also cheats to make it's plot twist non obvious. From the others i've seen on your list, I agree with TWBB, Memento and Mulholland Drive, although none of those types of stories would work in a video game (or in Memento and MD's case in anything other than a movie/tv show.)

No Country is an amazing film and the screenplay is one of the main reasons for this. Not a single frame is wasted and every character is there for a reason. You need an attentive eye to catch all the details since there's not a single scene to explain what's going on. The film is also a deeply philosophical and has an understanding about the times and world we live in. Overall the film is a masterclass in storytelling and moves forward flawlessly mainly because of the excellent writing.

Manchester by the Sea might have a so called "basic" story, but every character, emotion and subtle gesture in the film feels real and this is largely due to the excellent writing and performances.

Arrival might not have quite as great screenplay as some of the other movies I listed but it manages to be smart and thought provoking without feeling cold and distant.

 

[The Albatross]

I'm glad to see that this view [Bioshock Story is shite] is more mainstream these days. I remember when Bioshock Infinite came out, everyone was telling me that my mind would be blown by how amazing the story was.

Aye.
I remember when the game came out and Polygon wrote this fluff piece kissing Ken Levine's ass about his brilliance, and the 10,000 hours he spent writing the Bioshock story, and about how he's a story telling genius.

And then I played the game, super eager to love the story, and I just thought ... what a piece of crap. I thought the world was very creatively imagined, an excellent setting and a really great idea of world building that had never been done before. There were specific elements throughout the narrative that were insanely clever, particularly with how time travel allowed people in the Sky city to bring back popular music from a later era, but then adapt it to the popular sensibilities of their time. That stuff was excellent and so well done. But the story doesn't make a goddam shred of sense, at any point, at any time. Bioshock Infinite was always an ultra creative world and setting in need of a story, not an ultra creative story in need of a world.

Le Reveal Magnifico at the end of it, I sat there thinking... "What... the... fuck?" I was shocked that Levine said the story took these thousands of hours to craft. It legitimately seemed like a story that somebody could come up with while taking a single good shit.

Bioshock's story was better than Infinite because the source material, a Randian Dystopia, is better than what Levine could make up in his head. Similar to how GTA:VC and SA have better stories than GTAIV and V because Rockstar blatantly ripped off other source material in VC and SA and it just makes for a better story.

 

[Lunaray]

Aye.
I remember when the game came out and Polygon wrote this fluff piece kissing Ken Levine's ass about his brilliance, and the 10,000 hours he spent writing the Bioshock story, and about how he's a story telling genius.

And then I played the game, super eager to love the story, and I just thought ... what a piece of crap. I thought the world was very creatively imagined, an excellent setting and a really great idea of world building that had never been done before. There were specific elements throughout the narrative that were insanely clever, particularly with how time travel allowed people in the Sky city to bring back popular music from a later era, but then adapt it to the popular sensibilities of their time. That stuff was excellent and so well done. But the story doesn't make a goddam shred of sense, at any point, at any time. Bioshock Infinite was always an ultra creative world and setting in need of a story, not an ultra creative story in need of a world.

Le Reveal Magnifico at the end of it, I sat there thinking... "What... the... fuck?" I was shocked that Levine said the story took these thousands of hours to craft. It legitimately seemed like a story that somebody could come up with while taking a single good shit.

Bioshock's story was better than Infinite because the source material, a Randian Dystopia, is better than what Levine could make up in his head. Similar to how GTA:VC and SA have better stories than GTAIV and V because Rockstar blatantly ripped off other source material in VC and SA and it just makes for a better story.

Everything you said resonates with my own experience. I distinctly remember quite a few of my friends telling me that I absolutely had to play Bioshock Infinite, and that the "incredibly deep, complex story" would resonate with me.

Spoiler

Turns out the entire premise was some nonsensical pseudoscientific multiverse gimmick

. I will admit the world and the aesthetics were really well done - the game would have worked with a more conventional plot

Spoiler

and didn't need all the frustrating foreshadowing

.

 

[mokeyjoe]

No Country is an amazing film and the screenplay is one of the main reasons for this. Not a single frame is wasted and every character is there for a reason. You need an attentive eye to catch all the details since there's not a single scene to explain what's going on. The film is also a deeply philosophical and has an understanding about the times and world we live in. Overall the film is a masterclass in storytelling and moves forward flawlessly mainly because of the excellent writing.

Manchester by the Sea might have a so called "basic" story, but every character, emotion and subtle gesture in the film feels real and this is largely due to the excellent writing and performances.

Arrival might not have quite as great screenplay as some of the other movies I listed but it manages to be smart and thought provoking without feeling cold and distant.

Yeah, I think some people equate 'heavy plotting' with good writing. There's something to be said for a simple story told with layers of nuance. A basic exchange between two characters may simply move the plot along, or it could unravel all sorts of background or subtext and enrich the story. Such films often reveal more on repeated viewings.

 

[Green Card]

All we have to do is believe in each and we can be heroes and nothing bad will happen to us ever. People really to talk like this.

 

[theofficefan99]

Video game stories have a TON of potential as a storytelling medium.

Thankfully games have started to receive scathing criticism if the writing is shit, but the general gamer doesn't care much unfortunately. Meaning devs don't really have the motivation to put in much more effort in this department.

Nowadays just slap "OPEN WORLD!1!!1!2!2!2!1!!/;9'ajd" on your game and you're guaranteed a non-shitty Metacritic average.

 

[JohnMatrix]

What I don't understand is how major projects like AAA video games and movies can end up with poor storytelling and characters in the first place

I mean, if I'm spending millions of dollars on a project with a narrative that would be the first foundation of it. And there are so many writers out there, both established and newcomers, that attracting talent shouldn't be a problem

I know art is subjective but there are plenty of huge well known projects many people tend to collectively agree are lazy and poorly written. It seems like it's a critical foundation of many video games and films that often gets overlooked in big budget projects

 

[zenspider]

I'm hard pressed to think of any story that in videogames that is good and not just "videogame good" if we're talking a 1:1 comparison of The Last of Us (really?) vs. The Walking Dead or whatever's comparable.

The stories in games that resonate with me past the bounds of the medium are ones that can only be told in games or are better somehow as games.

Here's what comes to mind, and I'm sure you can get my meaning from this list:

Shadow of the Colossus
Inside
Bloodborne
Virginia
ABZU

Save Bloodborne, they all told compelling stories by playing to the strengths of the medium, not aping others.

Bloodborne is a special example because although you have elements of book and movie storytelling, the fact that you have to seek the story to know it but also can have a compelling experience without doing so is only possible with a videogame.

 

[Wesley-Sigma]

They are shitty. It is the worst medium for story telling.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Aye.
I remember when the game came out and Polygon wrote this fluff piece kissing Ken Levine's ass about his brilliance, and the 10,000 hours he spent writing the Bioshock story, and about how he's a story telling genius.

And then I played the game, super eager to love the story, and I just thought ... what a piece of crap. I thought the world was very creatively imagined, an excellent setting and a really great idea of world building that had never been done before. There were specific elements throughout the narrative that were insanely clever, particularly with how time travel allowed people in the Sky city to bring back popular music from a later era, but then adapt it to the popular sensibilities of their time. That stuff was excellent and so well done. But the story doesn't make a goddam shred of sense, at any point, at any time. Bioshock Infinite was always an ultra creative world and setting in need of a story, not an ultra creative story in need of a world.

Le Reveal Magnifico at the end of it, I sat there thinking... "What... the... fuck?" I was shocked that Levine said the story took these thousands of hours to craft. It legitimately seemed like a story that somebody could come up with while taking a single good shit.

Bioshock's story was better than Infinite because the source material, a Randian Dystopia, is better than what Levine could make up in his head. Similar to how GTA:VC and SA have better stories than GTAIV and V because Rockstar blatantly ripped off other source material in VC and SA and it just makes for a better story.

Bioshock holds up better precisely because it's not really about Randian Objectivism or the moral status of rational self-interest or absolute freedom or anything else. It simply uses these themes as set dressing to create nicely-rendered and rather original but ultimately pretty broad and cartoony settings and characters based on the themes of greed and power and freedom, and is not a referendum on these things.

Levine drank his own Kool-aid with Infinite and tried to make it a philisophical commentary on some pretty controversial topics. Only for it to turn out he doesn't have the writing chops to pull it off.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

They are shitty. It is the worst medium for story telling.

I dont know, have you seen GAF OT?

 

[flatearthpandas]

Moreover, I feel that there is an unspoken truth that videogame stories suck anyway so there is no need in explaining the criticism any further. The vagueness I mentioned somehow becomes accepted. In general, my impression is that there is a lot of harsh criticism and negativity surrounding the discussion of videogame stories.

This is the core, but it isn't necessarily wrong. I don't think video game stories are judged any more harshly than anything else tbh. Credit is given where it's due and appropriately and when the writing succeeds on some point you'll find people willing to speak on it. But overall, the quality that you find in TV and movies, let alone printed media, just isn't there. And even when games succeed in some aspect there's usually some other failure. Great and believable dialogue offset by a ridiculous or tired narrative for example. And this isn't exclusive to video games by any means, but I honestly there there are fewer people actively trying to make games that excel in writing than other mediums and of course even skilled people fail sometimes. Games are also held back by ludonarrative dissonance, a large proportion of Japanese origin and subsequently necessary translation (imho, even in literature JP-->Eng translations often sound awkward and stilted), and possibly a more globally aware audience than the TV or movie audience, and will be more likely to recognize creative liberties taken in translation and to judge on these things.

 

[JohnMatrix]

They are shitty. It is the worst medium for story telling.

I don't think so, they just require more innovative storytelling, like using the game's design and interactive elements to drive the story

Even traditional screenwriting and plotting, character development etc can go a long way in most video games

 

[Galactic Fork]

What Life is Strange absolutely nailed were characterisation, character development, making you care about the characters, etc. IMO, though, dialogue was actually one of its weak points. There were a lot of moments where it felt kind of fake/forced, like the writer(s) were trying to go for teenage slang but missed the mark. Which, in some weird way, adds to the game's charme but it still doesn't really make for good dialogue.

While I often praise Life is Strange for its characterization, development and even dialog (i like the awkwardness of it), the actual world building and setting are complete crap and poorly thought out. I can forgive it somewhat, but it's still there, and glaring. And for me still falls into the "for a video game" category. Even the stuff I would praise would probably feel a bit heavy handed in another medium.

 

[Aters]

I personally love some of the Anime story telling like

legend of galactic heroes
Jin Rou
Melinium Actress
Nausicaa of the vally of the wind
Akira
Redline
Ghost in Shell
Monster
Wolf children
Cowboy bebop

I personally like these more than any star wars, Marvel movies.

Anime has some high highs (your list), higher than videogames can ever reach, but the low end is somehow even shittier than a bad videogame story.

 

[JimmyRustler]

I'll never understand why so many people here on GAF (I curiously don't see that ever on other gaming forums) label game stories as bad or shitty.

Especially because such a thread always seems to pop up when I'm just experiencing something totally contradicting this. Like now for instance...

I'm currently playing Hellblade, which totally engrosses me with it's story and storytelling, and watching Game of Thrones Seasons 7, where is just facepalmed myself through Episode 6 yesterday.

I dunno. I must be weird I guess. In my opinion games tell by far the best stories nowadays. Granted, I do not read many books, but I really have a hard time naming movies with good stories this year and I've been to the cinema a lot lately.

 

[KillLaCam]

Things are either Naughty Dog or they aren't.

No one else writes compellingly fleshed-out, filmic characters in games.

LOL the only time I was remotely interested in any of their characters was TLOU

 

[Elfforkusu]

Honestly, I think the best videogame story I've played is Shenmue. That's largely because it sticks to a simple, slow core narrative with lots of non-linear optional "world" stuff you can experience at your own pace -- something the medium is uniquely good at.

For linear stuff? It's usually not pretty.

Anime has some high highs (your list), higher than videogames can ever reach, but the low end is somehow even shittier than a bad videogame story.

I don't know that the low end is actually worse so much as that there's nothing else there. Just like a bad movie, there's no other justification for its existence.

At least a game with an awful story can have great gameplay...

 

[Danjin44]

Anime has some high highs (your list), higher than videogames can ever reach, but the low end is somehow even shittier than a bad videogame story.

That can be said about hollywood movies as well. there good anime and there are shitty anime just like any other media in the world.

 

[fresquito]

Only thing videogames have going for them is the player is more involved than with other medium. But the repetitive and limited nature of any given gameplay system makes for a very dificult enviroment to tell stories. Oftentimes, games tend to have good narratives or good writting, but even in those cases, either gameplay is on the light side, or there's some serious disonance between gameplay and story.

Of all the games I've played throughout my life (I'm 37 and started playing with Pong), not a single one had what I'd call a good story. They all were mediocre, at best. A few had good narratives and some here and there had entertaining writing or plotting. Probably people thinking videogames stories are good are people that are bored by good books.

I'll never understand why so many people here on GAF (I curiously don't see that ever on other gaming forums) label game stories as bad or shitty.

Especially because such a thread always seems to pop up when I'm just experiencing something totally contradicting this. Like now for instance...

I'm currently playing Hellblade, which totally engrosses me with it's story and storytelling, and watching Game of Thrones Seasons 7, where is just facepalmed myself through Episode 6 yesterday.

I dunno. I must be weird I guess. In my opinion games tell by far the best stories nowadays. Granted, I do not read many books, but I really have a hard time naming movies with good stories this year and I've been to the cinema a lot lately.

There you go. Maybe you should also check what movies you watch.

 

[yanipheonu]

Story isn't exactly priority for most games.
That and it's actually hard to tell what good "game writing" is. A good gaming story includes aspects of the actual game in it.

Does a particularly good use of a game mechanic to tell a story count as good "writing"?

Unlike movies and plays, it's hard to place exactly who is responsible for a lot of these things.

You're essentially writing an experience. Frankly if you do your job right, people shouldn't be able to tell a writer was responsible. It should just feel like a part of the player's experience.

 

[theofficefan99]

What I don't understand is how major projects like AAA video games and movies can end up with poor storytelling and characters in the first place

I mean, if I'm spending millions of dollars on a project with a narrative that would be the first foundation of it. And there are so many writers out there, both established and newcomers, that attracting talent shouldn't be a problem

I know art is subjective but there are plenty of huge well known projects many people tend to collectively agree are lazy and poorly written. It seems like it's a critical foundation of many video games and films that often gets overlooked in big budget projects

I don't understand this either. If you're going to spend millions of dollars making expensive ass cutscenes you might as well spend some extra money on a good writer.

 

[fresquito]

I don't understand this either. If you're going to spend millions of dollars making expensive ass cutscenes you might as well spend some extra money on a good writer.

A good writer would not write these expensive ass cutscenes in the first place. Good stories tend to be thoughtful, are filled with grey areas, are deep, divisive, and tend to make people feel unconfortable. Not the best recipe for making your investment worth it.

Basically mass products are aimed at teenagers of all ages.