papersleeves
Member
Even on older games?
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Is Sony missing the point of hardware upgrades?
- Thread starter SpokkX
- Start date
Even on older games?
Malcolm9
Member
Have you bothered reading about why they made this decision? Thought not.
RichiRamjag
Member
Good grief...
-hadouken
Member
Well if they do, I'll be buying one in order to play stable versions of the ambitious games from 2013-2016.
Sangetsu-II
Member
Yep, we should create that thread if Scorpio is unable to enhance original X1 games, atleast greater than what X1 S currently achieves.
Phil did say expect some games to see an upgrade out the box but this is based on methods used by devs,.
staticneuron
Member
This is what is happening on older games. From the PS4pro release on wards, support for PS4pro is Mandatory iirc.
Thank you! No need to repeat myself in this thread.
Well that doesn't sound very encouraging, does it? Some games?
Basically confirms that most won't just like in case of the Pro.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
From what I understand (keep in mind, I don't have a Pro devkit), it would be exceptionally easy for us to add Pro support to our game, we would just have to test it to make sure nothing weird happens. Of course, given the nature of our game (retro-style with 480 x 270 default resolution), Pro support probably wouldn't do much of anything other than lower load times (which are already rather fast) & ensure that we don't drop from 60 fps. In any case, I'm guessing most developers are in the same situation and will test their game on Pro when they get the opportunity and patch accordingly.
you're right it's the exact same situation
LordOfChaos
Member
It does seem overly conservative to have the CPU and GPU clock the same in unpatched games. Microsoft seemed to manage minor boosts just fine.
Perhaps it is the API though, GNM may still be lower level than DX12.
Making patches for Pro free for developers would alleviate all this...
Perhaps it is the API though, GNM may still be lower level than DX12.
Making patches for Pro free for developers would alleviate all this...
papersleeves
Member
In that case this isn't so bad after all. I just hope as many old games will be enhanced as possible.
So this means basically identical performance on unpatched games. Was seriously considering upgrading
Krusenstern
Banned
I doubt many pre-Pro release games will receive patches. Not even many from Sony.
Wait what?! I totally missed this. If unpatched games run exactly as they did on the normal PS4, then that significantly decreases the value of the PS4 Pro for me. Yeah, I think it does miss the whole point of upgraded consoles.
I was hoping that Bloodborne, even without a PS4 Pro patch, would run at a smoother framerate on the Pro. According to this it'll run the same? This isn't the way any other platform with multiple form factors works.
Fairly early on in iOS's lifespan there were games that ran kind of shitty on the latest iPhone model when they came out but automatically ran much better on later models without any changes from the developer. The Xbox One S already runs some games slightly faster or with slightly more stable framerates. The whole idea on consoles was supposed to be like upgrading a PC from an HD 7870 to an RX 480. Sure some games would be deliberately optimized to take better advantages of the stronger hardware, but all games would get some kind of performance boost.
If the issue is instability, I think what happened is Sony didn't really prepare for this path the same way Microsoft and Apple did. Sony talks about the PS4 Pro as a mid-generation refresh, Microsoft talks about the Scorpio as if it's a blurred transition to a new hardware generation. It seems as if Sony is still, in some slight way, stuck on the old way of designing game consoles.
I was hoping that Bloodborne, even without a PS4 Pro patch, would run at a smoother framerate on the Pro. According to this it'll run the same? This isn't the way any other platform with multiple form factors works.
Fairly early on in iOS's lifespan there were games that ran kind of shitty on the latest iPhone model when they came out but automatically ran much better on later models without any changes from the developer. The Xbox One S already runs some games slightly faster or with slightly more stable framerates. The whole idea on consoles was supposed to be like upgrading a PC from an HD 7870 to an RX 480. Sure some games would be deliberately optimized to take better advantages of the stronger hardware, but all games would get some kind of performance boost.
If the issue is instability, I think what happened is Sony didn't really prepare for this path the same way Microsoft and Apple did. Sony talks about the PS4 Pro as a mid-generation refresh, Microsoft talks about the Scorpio as if it's a blurred transition to a new hardware generation. It seems as if Sony is still, in some slight way, stuck on the old way of designing game consoles.
I read it as a range of improvements, negligible to noticeable. But thats better than 'no-improvements' when hardware is available to be taken advantage of without a patch. We'll see, but yeah, id be hugely disappointed if this was handled like PS4 Pro.
WordsintheWater
Member
What benefit would they get out of locking you out of the ability to do this just cause? It would be a damn selling point if it helped increase performance for all PS4 games, more people would buy. They aren't blocking it just for fun.
NoPiece
Member
Are you old enough to remember the turbo button?
It was kind a misnomer, because it was really a "slow down" button that you would occasionally use to lower the speed on your PC to deal with games that broke when running too fast.
not going to pretend how any of this works but the difference between xbox and ps4p doesn't seem like a straight 1:1 comparison. sounds more like overclocking (xbox s) versus upgrading the hardware (ps4 pro)
on pc you generally won't have any software issues with the former (outside of stability if you don't have proper cooling) versus if you swap out the hardware you might need new drivers and/or patches for the game.
i generally don't replay games i've beaten very often though...so as long as all new releases are going to be improved on pro...this isn't that big of a deal to me.
on pc you generally won't have any software issues with the former (outside of stability if you don't have proper cooling) versus if you swap out the hardware you might need new drivers and/or patches for the game.
i generally don't replay games i've beaten very often though...so as long as all new releases are going to be improved on pro...this isn't that big of a deal to me.
gamingPotato7
Member
These aren't PC games we are talking about. These are 700 PS4 games which can have a multitude of tweaks for the specific PS4 hardware. And if the clock is not right it can have numerous bugs. Bugs that simply cannot be found by a team of 20 QA people like someone said here because games are huge and have numerous months with a huge number of QA people finding all the bugs. If Sony feels its best to lock the clock then its for the best. It is easy for devs to patch their games for the Pro so its up to them to test and see if it is worth to make the upgrade
SmoothRunningGun
Member
Man bloodborne could really use those extra cycles. From's probably not going to patch it. I see no reason for me with my 1080p tv to buy this until Horizon comes out.
Mediking
Member
You don't sound motivated or even excited about doing that and you're a developer.
ethomaz
Banned
It is impossible do be identical.So this means basically identical performance on unpatched games. Was seriously considering upgrading
Polaris alone add about 10% in performance increase for the GPU.
Pro's GPU disabled half units and running at the same clock than PS4's GPU will at 1-3 fps to some games.
So I looked at the DF article. I understand the reasoning behind keeping CPU performance the same for older games, but I still think locking down the GPU as well might be playing it a bit too safe. That GPU upgrade by itself could make a significant difference for a lot of existing games.
Once again, it feels like Sony didn't really plan this out from the beginning, and still believes in the idea of traditional console generations cut off from each other. Or maybe future PlayStation consoles will be upgraded models that will be backwards compatible with all legacy games, but those legacy games won't see any benefit from the new hardware.
Once again, it feels like Sony didn't really plan this out from the beginning, and still believes in the idea of traditional console generations cut off from each other. Or maybe future PlayStation consoles will be upgraded models that will be backwards compatible with all legacy games, but those legacy games won't see any benefit from the new hardware.
link?
DangerMouse
Member
Yup, if it's based on devs for older games, that sounds exactly like Pro patching.
We don't know that
primasaurus
Member
Just read the Digital Foundry article. Jesus fuck.
Lack of 4k Blu-Ray is something I couldn't care less about, but this forced downclocking has me riled up. I was so looking forward to play Bloodborne at a more stable performance.
Whatever Microsoft is achieving is apparently too much for Sony to pull off.
Sony wants you to double dip to get that sweet FPS
With the way UWP works... it should work that way. I mean, so many people are looking forward to it that if MS dares to not let that happen I will personally be very disappointed.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Our game runs well on the Vita so the regular PS4 is already overkill. I'd be happy to test the game for the PS4 Pro and see if it improves things any, but I'd need a new devkit and I'm guessing there are a lot more pressing places to send PS4 Pro devkits than to me.
CrichtonKicks
Member
Bloodborne's problem is poor frame pacing. That is an issue on From Software's end. The Pro wouldn't fix that anyway.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Well games won't run any worse, so at least they will all work. Even the Xbox One S doesn't improve every game, so its not a guaranteed thing anyway and the ones that it does improve, its only a minor boost.
The CPU / GPU clock in the Pro is a much bigger boost, compared to the small boost of the Xbox One S. Maybe that bigger boost on Pro can cause issues for older games, as they were built to run on a fixed hardware spec.
The CPU / GPU clock in the Pro is a much bigger boost, compared to the small boost of the Xbox One S. Maybe that bigger boost on Pro can cause issues for older games, as they were built to run on a fixed hardware spec.
staticneuron
Member
According to Cerny
It implies that issues were found so they couldn't just to a blanket upgrade across all titles. Since they cannot they leave it up to devs.
How can you not know? You posted in the DF thread. This is you right?
The article is in the first post of that thread.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Insuring complete compatibility for 700+ games by default downclocking and leaving it up to the developers to update their titles on a case by case basis seems pretty reasonable, especially since they tested it:
There are a lot of insights if you actually read the article and don't scan it for blurbs you can meltdown over.
There are a lot of insights if you actually read the article and don't scan it for blurbs you can meltdown over.
We know that Microsoft are encouraging devs to use dynamic resolution now for that reason.
DreadfulOmen
Member
You're not allowed to have any sort of intelligence or reading abilty here. I thought you knew that.
source? I know they encourage dynamic res, but is it specifically for patch-less Scorpio improvements?
My bad. I assumed all the important stuff from the link made its way into the OP quote. That being said... I'd still repeat my post. That reasoning is disappointing.
I guess this just outlines one difference between the UWP platform. The thing is, I don't know of any issues that arose from using the extra power for overclocking the PSP games. What issues could there be?
it's encouraging but doesn't necessarily say that all older games get boosts
All games will receive a boost where they fail to reach their targets. By how much depends on the title, but it's not farfetched to say that whatever improvements we see with the S model will be further improved with Scorpio. BC titles, for example, performing better than their OG 360 versions can reap those benefits too.
I don't see why this can't happen with the Pro. If anything, I'm still waiting to see, I don't believe it'll have performance parity with the older title (on unpatched titles)
I never said they would? The comment was about games using a dynamic resolution and Microsoft is already saying devs can use it with it being capable of working seamlessly with the Scorpio.
often times those apps require updates for both hardware and ios updates no? its not that dissimilar if ps4 pro requires a patch to the game as well. albeit sony may do well to help out with this. at least for the popular titles where they have metrics about how many players are still playing them.
This. Many games developed before the advent of widespread real time clocks would behave erratically or fail when run on hardware at the wrong clock speed.
A more recent example would be Dark Souls 2. Weapon durability was tied to framerate on consoles running at 30fps. When the game was able to run at 60fps on PC, weapons would break twice as fast. These kinds of shortcuts and tricks are quite common when coding something as complex as a game. Tying a simple variable refresh to an existing timer like framerates, cpu clock or RTC requires less code and saves precious CPU cycles since you don't have to run an additional timer just for updating something like weapon durability.
afaik, when you could jailbreak an iPhone 4 way back when, you could "overclock" it an obtain better performance. that's just how mobile platform works though... and every platform ever
I've only ever heard of emulation not taking advantage of more powerful hardware for when they want to achieve the exact same experience (slow-downs and all). Underclocking the PS4 Pri is a strange decision and I'd like to hear more about why.
Games programmed that way (even games had Titanfall (pre-patch) and Fallout 4 had issues when unlocked framerate was used) still have locked framerates on the console itself. Unpatched Dark Souls 2 will still have a 30fps cap on the PS4 Pro, underclocked or not.