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[PeteZaTheHutt]

Go to your nearest mosque. Ask them if rape is okay.

Obviously, I'm confident that most, if not all, people at the nearest mosque would not condone rape. Modern culture and social norms have helped a lot with this. My point is that using the Bible/Quran solely as your gauge for certain morals can be a futile effort mired in ambiguity. Often these books are touted as being perfect, yet nobody can definitively decide on much of what these books are actually trying to convey.

It's ultimately frustrating to see so many religious posters quoting reams of ancient scripture and performing mental gymnastics and dubious semantics in order to justify what is right and wrong in our modern world. Societal norms in modern society and common sense should tell you that rape is wrong. Flipping through ancient books that are largely irrelevant to today's world and quoting and debating ambiguous scripture in an endless loop is tedious, unnecessary and eerily close to Einstein's definition of insanity.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Obviously, I'm confident that most, if not all, people at the nearest mosque would not condone rape. Modern culture and social norms have helped a lot with this. My point is that using the Bible/Quran solely as your gauge for certain morals can be a futile effort mired in ambiguity. Often these books are touted as being perfect, yet nobody can definitively decide on much of what these books are actually trying to convey.

It's ultimately frustrating to see so many religious posters quoting reams of ancient scripture and performing mental gymnastics and dubious semantics in order to justify what is right and wrong in our modern world. Societal norms in modern society and common sense should tell you that rape is wrong. Flipping through ancient books that are largely irrelevant to today's world and quoting and debating ambiguous scripture in an endless loop is tedious, unnecessary and eerily close to Einstein's definition of insanity.

or you know the other alternative is their own faith says Rape is a big sin.

 

[boiled goose]

You mentioned if things are so obvious why are people disagreeing, You are right. If we are Humans why do we still have race issues in the world. People are stupid, this is why people accept false opinions as facts and accept voilence and hate as a first resort

I had already acknowledged it was not in the book ... my point was broader.

How about this... does the Qur'an contain anything you disagree with?

 

[Maninthemirror]

I had already acknowledged it was not in the book ... my point was broader.

How about this... does the Qur'an contain anything you disagree with?

There is Nothing in the Quran that I disagree with. Not from all the study I have done on it. To me after years of studying it, it is still the perfect book of God. The point is, if you study the Quran, Most will find it to the best faith there is if you are willing to believe. It wont convince you to believe if you are not willing to believe, that is already part of Islamic teaching that you have to objectively and actively be reaching out to be open to the possibility and have the goodness in your heart before you are guided to Islam as it is. Anything else is just fruitless. It is already part of faith that if you are sinful person, nomatter how much you believe, you will end up being an ISIS member rather than a Good muslim. An ISIS convert is like a man who sees Heaven on the other side and his inner conviction is so full of hate while accepting that he jumps towards heaven but falls into hell not knowing the gap is huge between what he thinks he is becoming and what is his

 

[boiled goose]

There is Nothing in the Quran that I disagree with. Not from all the study I have done on it. To me after years of studying it, it is still the perfect book of God. The point is, if you study the Quran, Most will find it to the best faith there is if you are willing to believe. It wont convince you to believe if you are not willing to believe, that is already part of Islamic teaching that you have to objectively and actively be reaching out to be open to the possibility and have the goodness in your heart before you are guided to Islam as it is. Anything else is just fruitless.

Wow. See now reason has been abandoned and you are a fundamentalist extremist.

So women are worth less than men?
Why believe in Islam? What will happen to those who reject Allah?
Is it OK if I insult god and the Prophet?

 

[Azih]

And my point, all along, was that despite their differences in culture and politics and economy, almost none of those countries could be called "progressive". Remember, I said "Islamic countries in general are not known for their progressive and pro-human rights values." I elaborated on that here.

Third world countries in general are not known for their progressive and pro-human rights values either. Again if you compare muslim countries to non muslim countries in the same region or control for level of development suddenly the 'evidence' for "There's something weird about that there eyeslam" suddenly starts fading.

 

[Interceptor]

"violent cult". Why is Islam a cult? Hilarious. Your reasoning is just as ridiculous because you got everything ass backwards as usual. A 1000 scholars, experts and jurists from within the belief system unequivocally condemning terrorism are all wrong about their religion because some Pamela Gellar fanboy with a blog knows more about their religion than them. Got it.

And yes, you drive-away. A lot. In every Islamic thread. I called you out that's why you responded and I'm glad you stayed.

Every religion is a cult. Some big, some small. And i was just pointing out the error in your adaption of a good gif in his original form. You don´t ask 1.000 homoepaths if its a valid treatment. You ask one (or thousands) from the outside. Thats the flaw. But why even draw 1.000 strawmans with scholars no one gives a shit about or some Quran quotes that could very well be overwritten in the very same book? Just one guy should be important here. Mohammed. He wouldn´t condemn ISIS. He would lead it by example. Just like he did 1500 years ago.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Wow. See now reason has been abandoned and you are a fundamentalist extremist.

So women are worth less than men?

First, a fundamentalist by definition is someone who follows the fundamentals of something, a constitutionalist is a fundamentalist to the constitution but not an extremist, its often an oxymoron



secondly such illiiterate statements are abundant when faith is viewed with a prism of hate.

I have already written on this and you are ignored this before:

Critics and Extremists say Islam says women should be forced into doing Hijab and dress modestly and they often cite the following verse:
““Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them...””
— Al-Ahzab 60
If you notice, this is the typical behavior from such critics and extremists when you look at entire verse:
“O Prophet! tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers that they should draw close to them portions of their loose outer coverings. That is nearer that they may thus be distinguished and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.”
— Al-Ahzab 60
Thus it is a suggestion, not a command that women should dress modesty so as to not be looked at like objects of desire especially from men like to take advantage of women and hurt them sexually.

The next verse critics and extremists cite is
“And say to the believing women that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts, and that they disclose not their natural and artificial beauty except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms, and that they disclose not their beauty save to their husbands, or to their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands or their sons or the sons of their husbands or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or what their right hands possess, or such of male attendants as have no sexual appetite, or young children who have no knowledge of the hidden parts of women. And they strike not their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may become known. And turn ye to Allah all together, O believers, that you may succeed.”
— Surah Al-Nur 32
This is a suggestion to women again that they may dress modestly which again is to not make men look at women like sexual objects. If anything this verse gives women a higher status than these critics who want women to be seen as sexual objects for their own desires. This verse gives women a higher level of respect than critics of moderate dressing can ever think of giving women. If you look at it objectively, this verse would be something that every women's rights group can support due to Islam's suggestions to treat women as equal in spiritually not as an object of desire.

The critics of Islam then say women are asked to restrain their eyes as if women are exclusively asked to dress modestly and restrain their eyes. This is the answer from God:
“Say to the believing men that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Surely, Allah is well aware of what they do.”
— Surah Al-Nur 31
This is just one verse before the verse critics cite. One has to wonder if this push to try and show women are held inferior is actual criticism or has malicious intent or are such critics and extremists so aloof that they cannot read the whole Quran before criticizing it?

Critics and extremists suggest women are only worth half a witness as compared to men and they cite verse 2:283. lets look at the verse:
“O ye who believe! when you borrow one from another for a fixed period, then write it down. And let a scribe write it in your presence faithfully; and no scribe should refuse to write, because Allah has taught him, so let him write and let him who incurs the liability dictate; and he should fear Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything therefrom. But if the person incurring the liability be of low understanding or be weak or be unable himself to dictate, then let someone who can watch his interest dictate with justice. And call two witnesses from among your men; and if two men be not available, then a man and two women, of such as you like as witnesses, so that if either of two women should err in memory, then one may remind the other. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called. And do not feel weary of writing it down, whether it be small or large, along with its appointed time of payment. This is more equitable in the sight of Allah and makes testimony surer and is more likely to keep you away from doubts; therefore omit not to write except that it be ready merchandise which you give or take from hand to hand, in which case it shall be no sin for you that you write it not. And have witnesses when you sell one to another; and let no harm be done to the scribe or the witness. And if you do that, then certainly it shall be disobedience on your part. And fear Allah. And Allah grants you knowledge and Allah knows all things well.”
— Surah Al-Baqarah 283
The part
“ ...And call two witnesses from among your men; and if two men be not available, then a man and two women, of such as you like as witnesses, so that if either of two women should err in memory, then one may remind the other. ....”
Is cited as saying Islam views women as half a witness. The question needs to be asked to these critics and extremists, What would happen if the first women does not err in memory? They will be dumbfounded and found out because of the hatred within their hearts they have stopped thinking rationally and logically. If a woman does not err in memory then the testimony of the 2nd woman is not even needed which then results in both and man and woman being equal in measures of testimony in court and being witnesses.

The question is raised why is the 2nd woman needed in the first place and the answer is to look at your own society, Since time immemorial business has been conducted mostly by men and it is still, in the most liberal of societies been conducted mostly by men. This verse suggests that in such a case where men are predominantly the businessmen and the business decision makers, they would know the intricate dealings of finances more than a woman would in such a case which is why the err in memory is suggested considering women deal with business less than men. its a suggestion which fits into a similar situation of a business which is predominantly women, would you have more women witnesses in the business or men? Its common sense.


Here is what the Quran actually says about equality between Man and a Woman

“Surely, men who submit themselves to God and women who submit themselves to Him, and believing men and believing women, and obedient men and obedient women and truthful men and truthful women, and men steadfast in their faith and steadfast women, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, and men who remember Allah much and women who remember Him — Allah has prepared for all of them forgiveness and a great reward.”
— Surah Al-Ahzab 36
“O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah, in Whose name you appeal to one another, and fear Him particularly respecting ties of relationship. Verily, Allah watches over you.”
— Surah Al-Nisa 2
“So their Lord answered their prayers, saying, ‘I will allow not the work of any worker from among you, whether male or female, to be lost. You are from one another. Those, therefore, who have emigrated, and have been driven out from their homes, and have been persecuted in My cause, and have fought and been killed, I will surely remove from them their evils and will cause them to enter Gardens through which streams flow — a reward from Allah, and with Allah is the best of rewards.’”
— Surah Aal-e-`Imran 196
“O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female; and We have made you into tribes and sub-tribes that you may recognize one another. Verily, the most honourable among you, in the sight of Allah, is he who is the most righteous among you. Surely, Allah is All-knowing, All-Aware.”
— Surah Al-Hujurat 14


See the Quran views Men and Women through their souls not their bodies. Gender is a thing for this life whereas God views and wants Man to view the afterlife as infinitely more important that this life, God only loves the soul of the man and women and they are equal in the eyes of God because God sees whats equally good within humans not outside them

 

[Azih]

Wow. See now reason has been abandoned and you are a fundamentalist extremist.

So women are worth less than men?
Why believe in Islam? What will happen to those who reject Allah?
Is it OK if I insult god and the Prophet?

Are you honestly saying that if someone thinks the Quran is the perfect word of god they're fundamentalist extremists? What kind of craziness is that?

Every religion is a cult.

Not by the accepted definition of either the word religion or the word cult.

He wouldn´t condemn ISIS. He would lead it by example.

So now you are the authority on what the Prophet Muhammad would do in this day and age? Honestly? You're really the authority on what is true Islam and what isn't?

 

[boiled goose]

Ah the old fake cycle argument that the book says Kill Apostates. Lets Destroy this argument again for the sake of discussion -

Let us look at what the Holy Quran says:

“Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher;
Thou hast no authority to compel them.
But whoever turns away and disbelieves,
Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment (Hell)
Unto Us surely is their return,
Then, surely, it is for Us to call them to account.”
— Surah Al-Ghashiya 22-27

Does this suggest that anyone who disbelieves after believing will go to hell? That is not entirely the case. Here is how this is explained by the Quran:

“Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.”
— Surah Al-Nisa 138

“Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed — save him who is forced thereto while his heart finds peace in the faith — but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is Allah’s wrath; and they shall have a severe punishment.”
— Surah Al-Nahl 107

The message to Muslims is that the punishment of Apostasy is not be applied by man, but by God himself. Here is what the Quran says in this respect:
“We know best what they say; and thou hast not been appointed to compel them in any way. So admonish, by means of the Qur’an, him who fears My warning.”
— Surah Al-Qaf 46

“And as for those who take for themselves protectors beside Him, Allah watches over them; and thou art not a guardian over them.”
— Surah Al-Shura 7

“But if they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guardian over them. Thy duty is only to convey the Message. And truly when We cause man to taste of mercy from Us, he rejoices therein. But if an evil befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, then lo! man is ungrateful.”
— Surah Al-Shura 49

“Say, ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.’ But if you turn away, then upon him is his burden, and upon you is your burden. And if you obey him, you will be rightly guided. And the messenger is not responsible but for the plain delivery of the Message.”
— Surah Al-Nur 55

“And say, ‘It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ Verily, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose flaming canopy shall enclose them. And if they cry for help, they will be helped with water like molten lead which will burn the faces. How dreadful the drink, and how evil is the Fire as a resting place!”
— Surah Al-Kahf 30

“But if they turn away, then thou art responsible only for the plain delivery of the Message.”
— Surah Al-Nahl 83

These are just the few of the many examples proving that anyone who disbelieves is doing it on their own detriment in the eyes of God but the purpose for Muslims is only to deliver the message of God. One of the biggest and clearest verses of Man only following Islam and God being the punisher (not Man) is in the following verse

“ And whether We make thee see the fulfilment of some of the things with which We threaten them or whether We make thee die, it makes little difference, for on thee lies only the delivery of the Message, and on Us the reckoning.”
— Surah Al-Ra'd 41

At this point the question you ask yourself, If Quran is this clear about how to treat apostates, where is the criticism coming from. The extremists who defy Allah, by choosing to follow suspect hadith over the word of God are the ones who set the example incorrectly. Ask yourself the question looking at it logically, from a Muslim perspective, Quran is the word of God and authentic Ahadith are a collection of words and actions of the Holy Prophet (saw), which takes precedent? what do you think? The primary source of the incorrect tradition from Ahadith is explained here by Hadhrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad Khalifatul Masih IV in his book "Murder in the name of Allah":

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html

An Authentic ahadith is that which does not contradict the Quran especially considering that Ahadith were compiled 200-300 after the death of the Holy Prophet (saw)

Here is a Powerpoint of how to distinguish between Authentic Ahadeeth and those which might be suspect

http://www.alislam.org/holyprophet/Authenticity-of-Hadith.pptx


You mentioned if things are so obvious why are people disagreeing, You are right. If we are Humans why do we still have race issues in the world. People are stupid, this is why people accept false opinions as facts and accept voilence and hate as a first resort

Let the amazing rationalization begin! Anything can be interpreted to what I want it to be! The true Muslim right here.

Let's begin.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an 4:34

Another beauty

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Qur'an 33:50

 

[Interceptor]

Are you honestly saying that if someone thinks the Quran is the perfect word of god they're fundamentalist extremists? What kind of craziness is that?

It´s even worse. Believing the Quran is the literal and perfect word of god is exactly what makes this religon imune to reformation or critic. There is no fault in the direct word of god.
We often believe that there is some automatism in religion that will force it to adapt and reform. To lose it´s extreme views in the wake of science and common sense.

Nope, not with islam. Not some scholars writing stuff they witnessed.. the literal word of your god - as a book. Badly written and suspiciously highly convenient to the daily needs of a rampaging warlord.. but still. The word of god. Nothing will change here.

 

[RustyNails]

Every religion is a cult. Some big, some small. And i was just pointing out the error in your adaption of a good gif in his original form. You don´t ask 1.000 homoepaths if its a valid treatment. You ask one (or thousands) from the outside. Thats the flaw. But why even draw 1.000 strawmans with scholars no one gives a shit about or some Quran quotes that could very well be overwritten in the very same book? Just one guy should be important here. Mohammed. He wouldn´t condemn ISIS. He would lead it by example. Just like he did 1500 years ago.

You seemed awfully incensed by my usage of that gif...Jeez. Did you copyright it? Did I ruin it by defiling it with my Islammy hands? "A thousand strawmans with scholars no one gives a shit about" is objectively false. Scholars that are well versed in a wide and encompassing domain are fluent in their scholastic knowledge, why wouldn't they know more about their field of expertise? You can make that gif whatever you want man, let it go. Or just make a new one for us? Prophet Muhammad laid down these rules for battlefield:

O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well…for your guidance in the battlefield! Do not commit treachery, or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.

ISIS has violated pretty much every single commandment from that. They committed treachery, mutilated dead bodies, killed children, women, aged men, killed priests, imams and other religious workers. Why would he endorse them?

 

[Pennywise]

I'd say the savagery ISIS displays is already on par with with the nazis.

Yes.
Allthough the nazis barely had the methods of information gathering/spreading like ISIS does today.
And their propaganda had different targets and meanings, therefore this is hardly comparable.
I totally agree though, that the savagery display of ISIS is really something else compared to other forms of terrorism, we have witnessed over the last 50 years.

Still, you can't compare them to the nazis who build up an industrialised form of mudering humans, and nearly suceeded with their genocide...

I don't doubt that ISIS would come close, if they had the same opportunities and power.

 

[boiled goose]

Are you honestly saying that if someone thinks the Quran is the perfect word of god they're fundamentalist extremists? What kind of craziness is that?

Yes.

I would say the same thing about literalists of any religion. Believing some old book is the product of an unproven and unlikely all mighty space pixie is crazy? You bet ya.

 

[Azih]

The most astounding thing in this thread is that a whole hell of a lot of the people in here are sounding exactly like the people from Farmersville:

"You may have been told that the Quran advocates violence, advocates harm, murder, rape..."
Khalil Abdur-Rashid, representing the Islamic Association of Collin County, said this at the auditorium meeting, presumably as a rhetorical device to present a contradicting view. Before that could happen, a voice in the crowd insisted "it does" to rapturous applause. The right-wing canard that Muslims are encouraged to lie in furtherance of their religious goals was trotted out by another speaker.

Source

Video

So uh congrats guys. You're agreeing with ISIS on one hand and a bunch of bigots from rural Texas on the other. Amazing company you guys keep.

 

[Azih]

Yes.

I would say the same thing about literalists of any religion. Believing some old book is the product of an unproven and unlikely all mighty space pixie is crazy? You bet ya.

Right, then what you're doing is lumping in hundreds of millions of peaceful folk with the worst that ISIS has to offer just to fulfill some anti-theist ideology. It would be laughable how reductive and simplistic that would be if you hadn't conflated ME and MY family with that scum.

 

[m_shortpants]

The most astounding thing in this thread is that a whole hell of a lot of the people in here are sounding exactly like the people from Farmersville:



Source

Video

So uh congrats guys. You're agreeing with ISIS on one hand and a bunch of bigots from rural Texas on the other. Amazing company you guys keep.

Also, it seems like people are saying ISIS is valid because No True Scotsman, but then after that ISIS's interpretation is the valid one.

What.

 

[Mifune]

So uh congrats guys. You're agreeing with ISIS on one hand and a bunch of bigots from rural Texas on the other. Amazing company you guys keep.

They're not agreeing with bigots. They are bigots. This thread is gross.

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

or you know the other alternative is their own faith says Rape is a big sin.

Then why do we have an entire thread devoted to how scripture interprets this? Rape is wrong. I know it. You know it. Most sane people in the modern world know it. You don't need an irrelevant book to convey this to you in a mysterious and ambiguous manner that some will certainly misinterpret for their own misguided benefit. You've got your own brain that can use logic along with societal norms for modern context to tell you what is right and wrong in today's world. An ancient and outdated text is an ill-equipped substitute to guide you. There are millions upon millions of atheists in this world who are living good lives and are good people just as you are yourself. You do not need an ancient text to help you live a good life and to make moral decisions. An ambiguous text does nothing but muddy the waters.

 

[boiled goose]

Right, then what you're doing is lumping in hundreds of millions of peaceful folk with the worst that ISIS has to offer just to fulfill some anti-theist ideology. It would be laughable how reductive and simplistic that would be if you hadn't conflated ME and MY family with that scum.

That's a misrepresentation of my position. I said you are a fundamentalist. Not Isis.

The West Boro Baptist church and snake handling Pentecostals are fundamentalists too, but they are not Inquisitors or Crusaders.

It is hilarious to me how a perfect book needs so much rationalization.

 

[Interceptor]

You seemed awfully incensed by my usage of that gif...Jeez. Did you copyright it? Did I ruin it by defiling it with my Islammy hands? "A thousand strawmans with scholars no one gives a shit about" is objectively false. Scholars that are well versed in a wide and encompassing domain are fluent in their scholastic knowledge, why wouldn't they know more about their field of expertise? You can make that gif whatever you want man, let it go. Or just make a new one for us? Prophet Muhammad laid down these rules for battlefield:

ISIS has violated pretty much every single commandment from that. They committed treachery, mutilated dead bodies, killed children, women, aged men, killed priests, imams and other religious workers. Why would he endorse them?

I really don´t care about that gif - i just pointed out the flaw in your adaption of it. But i guess if you focus your life so much on religion you don´t really see a false analogy anymore even if it jumps right into your face.
And why another Quran quote? What does it prove if there exist quotes for the exact opposite in the very same book? Then what exactly is an enemy fighter? How do you define human? etc. etc.
I look at the actions mohammed performed. How he got "divine" authorisation whenever he needed it.
It´s so obvious it hurts my brain to even discuss it in 2015.

"Mohammed, we just sacked and massacred this city but why are you taking so much of the bounty?" -
"Errr, one moment - divine telegraph incoming. Pipipipipip - ah, my good old bro gabriel called just a second ago. God wants me to have 20% bounty now. Yep, that totally happened. Better write it down in my holy book lol."
That´s how it was made. That´s why in contradicts itself on a regular basis. Whatever he needed.

And people live by it on a daily basis almost 2000 years later. That´s not only hilarious. It´s sad. And a danger to everything humanity could achieve.

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

Yes.

I would say the same thing about literalists of any religion. Believing some old book is the product of an unproven and unlikely all mighty space pixie is crazy? You bet ya.

I'm curious to know how many of the muslims in this thread truly believe that Muhammed flew up to heaven on a winged horse.

 

[Nesotenso]

I'm curious to know how many of the muslims in this thread truly believe that Muhammed flew up to heaven on a winged horse.

I am curious to know how many muslims believe in the concept of God.

 

[m_shortpants]

I look at the actions mohammed performed. How he got "divine" authorisation whenever he needed it.
It´s so obvious it hurts my brain to even discuss it in 2015.

"Mohammed, we just sacked and massacred this city but why are you taking so much of the bounty?" -
"Errr, one moment - divine telegraph incoming. Pipipipipip - ah, my good old bro gabriel called just a second ago. God wants me to have 20% bounty now. Yep, that totally happened. Better write it down in my holy book lol."
That´s how it was made. That´s why in contradicts itself on a regular basis. Whatever he needed.

Which is why the dude lived in a mud hut, slept on leaves, and ate next to nothing. Get out of here with your false history.

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

Which is why the dude lived in a mud hut, slept on leaves, and ate next to nothing. Get out of here with your false history.

Is Muhammed flying up to heaven on a winged horse true history?

 

[Interceptor]

Which is why the dude lived in a mud hut, slept on leaves, and ate next to nothing. Get out of here with your false history.

A religious leader who claims to live a modest live while outlining a rule for a 20% share of all incoming bloodmoney in his holy book? I am shocked. Shocked!

 

[Messofanego]

Where does one find the opinions of the majority of the scholars? To my knowledge the majority consensus on apostasy is death / imprisonment in an ideal Islamic state. Also death for homosexuals caught having sex, given enough witnesses. Where do you look when you want answers to such questions?

Good article on the New York Times about homosexuality and tolerance in Islam and how many muslims infer the wrong things (it's not even in quran to punish it but is in old testament) to just act as assholes or murderers:

New York Times: What Does Islam Say About Being Gay?

At the heart of the Islamic view on homosexuality lies the biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is narrated in the Quran, too. According to scripture, the Prophet Lot had warned his people of “immorality,” for they did “approach men with desire, instead of women.” In return, the people warned by Lot tried to expel their prophet from the city, and even tried to sexually abuse the angels who came down to Lot in the guise of men. Consequently, God destroyed the people of Lot with a colossal natural disaster, only to save the prophet and a few fellow believers.


The average conservative Muslim takes this story as a justification to stigmatize gays, but there is an important question that deserves consideration: Did the people of Lot receive divine punishment for being homosexual, or for attacking Lot and his heavenly guests?

The even more significant nuance is that while the Quran narrates this divine punishment for Sodom and Gomorrah, it decrees no earthly punishment for homosexuality — unlike the Old Testament, which clearly decrees that homosexuals “are to be put to death.”

Medieval Islamic thinkers inferred an earthly punishment by considering homosexuality as a form of adultery. But significant names among them, such as the eighth-century scholar Abu Hanifa, the founder of the popular Hanafi school of jurisprudence, argued that since a homosexual relationship did not produce offspring with an unknown father, it couldn’t be considered adultery.

The real Islamic basis for punishing homosexuality is the hadiths, or sayings, attributed to the Prophet Muhammad. (The same is true for punishments on apostasy, heresy, impiety, or “insults” of Islam: None come from the Quran; all are from certain hadiths.) But the hadiths were written down almost two centuries after the prophet lived, and their authenticity has been repeatedly questioned — as early as the ninth century by the scholar Imam Nesai — and they can be questioned anew today. Moreover, there is no record of the prophet actually having anyone punished for homosexuality.

Such jurisprudential facts might help Muslims today to develop a more tolerant attitude toward gays, as some progressive Islamic thinkers in Turkey, such as Ihsan Eliacik, are encouraging. What is condemned in the story of Lot is not sexual orientation, according to Mr. Eliacik, but sexual aggression. People’s private lives are their own business, he argues, whereas the public Muslim stance should be to defend gays when they are persecuted or discriminated against — because Islam stands with the downtrodden.

It is also worth recalling that the Ottoman Caliphate, which ruled the Sunni Muslim world for centuries and which the current Turkish government claims to emulate, was much more open-minded on this issue. Indeed, the Ottoman Empire had an extensive literature of homosexual romance, and an accepted social category of transvestites. The Ottoman sultans, arguably, were social liberals compared with the contemporary Islamists of Turkey, let alone the Arab World.

Despite such arguments, the majority of Muslims are likely to keep seeing homosexuality as something sinful, if public opinion polls are any indication. Yet those Muslims who insist on condemning gays should recall that according to Islam, there are many sins, including arrogance, which the Quran treats as among the gravest moral transgressions. For Turks and other Muslims, it could be our own escape from the sin of arrogance to stop stigmatizing others for their behavior and focus instead on refining ourselves.​

 

[m_shortpants]

A religious leader who claims to live a modest live while outlining a rule for a 20% share of all incoming bloodmoney in his holy book? I am shocked. Shocked!

a fifth of it is for Allah and the Apostle, for the relatives and the orphans, for the needy and the traveller

Yeah, what an asshole, saving some money for orphans and the needy.

 

[RustyNails]

I really don´t care about that gif - i just pointed out the flaw in your adaption of it. But i guess if you focus your life so much on religion you don´t really see a false analogy anymore even if it jumps right into your face.

There is no flaw. I still don't see it. You just believe that religious scholars are a waste of everyone's time. There is no arguing with you. You just didn't like me defiling a good 'ol American gif with muslimmy stuff.

And why another Quran quote? What does it prove if there exist quotes for the exact opposite in the very same book? Then what exactly is an enemy fighter? How do you define human? etc. etc.

It's not a Qur'an quote, Mr. Smartypants. Please respond with "whatever, they're all the same/bunk" line of attack and just quote me 9:29 already and save us all the trouble.

"Mohammed, we just sacked and massacred this city but why are you taking so much of the bounty?" -
"Errr, one moment - divine telegraph incoming. Pipipipipip - ah, my good old bro gabriel called just a second ago. God wants me to have 20% bounty now. Yep, that totally happened. Better write it down in my holy book lol."
That´s how it was made. That´s why in contradicts itself on a regular basis. Whatever he needed.

Pathetic. Way to flaunt your ignorance in full force. You really took my post to stick around to heart. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea.

I'm curious to know how many of the muslims in this thread truly believe that Muhammed flew up to heaven on a winged horse.

What's so crazy about that winged-horse when every Muslim believes that a giant, invisible 600-winged arch-angel narrated the revelation to Prophet Muhammad personally?

 

[Interceptor]

Yeah, what an asshole, saving some money for orphans and the needy.

Having a strict and very tight codex for your community to live by, exploiting minorities or even excel at war all while living in a mud hut and feeding the poor, busy being the perfect human being.
Nope, never heard that story before.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Maninthemirror]

Let the amazing rationalization begin! Anything can be interpreted to what I want it to be! The true Muslim right here.

Let's begin.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an 4:34

Another beauty

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Qur'an 33:50

Ah picked right from religionofpeace islam hating website I see . lets begin.

Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because they (men) spend of their wealth. So virtuous women are those who are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah’s protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and leave them alone in their beds, and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High, Great.

Islam views the family setup as being mostly men are best at earning and women are best at upbringing of a child, nowhere does it mention that men are ALL supposed to only earn and women are all supposed to upbring a child only. As women are incharge of the home in most part, the obedient part is directly related to a few verses before it which you ignored because you only copy pasted and didnt study anything:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (Qur’an 4:19)


The word Obedient in Quran is Nushuz which in Arabic lexicon is: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord

This doesn't mean that Quran is saying a wife says She wont cook food today so husband will chastise, this refers to only when the wife is physical and verbally abusive to a man.

If you actually did study Quran, it focuses on the aspect on transgression, it discourages it against your wife. The verse is not about retaliating against your wife, it is about preventing because look what the beginning of the verse says where some men (in this case physically) are bigger and men especially as they have anger issues are told to supress their anger.

They are first told to tell them to stop the Animosity towards them, the hostility towards tehm, the ill treatment towards them and even physical abuse towards them, this can range from weeks to months

Then if the wife still continues with above are told to sleep in separate beds for 6 months. how many marriages would be resolved in this time is only a question you can answer

then if the wife still continues with above the man is asked to chastise his wife in the manner described in the most authentic hadiths say

Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2137:
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
Mu'awiyah asked: Apostle of Allah, what is the right of the wife of one of us over him? He replied: That you should give her food when you eat, clothe her when you clothe yourself, do not strike her on the face, do not revile her or separate yourself from her except in the house.

Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2138:
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:
I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.

Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2139:
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
I went to the Apostle of Allah and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.

Muslim, Book 009, Number 3526:
Fatima bint Qais reported that her husband divorced her with three, pronouncements and Allah's Messenger made no provision for her lodging and maintenance allowance. She (further said): Allah's Messenger said to me: When your period of 'Idda is over, inform me. So I informed him. (By that time) Mu'awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah's Messenger said: So far as Mu'awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid. she pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah's Messenger said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy.


Thus the "Beating" is not a beating and is nothing more then feather touching the skin level of push after 9 months of a wife abusing her husband if the relationship lasts that long, this is how much restraint man has been asked to endure in marriage and how much Islam asks Marriage to remain instead of dissolve.


This aspect of reconcilation over beating is proven in a later verse which you also ignored, an instruction given to women summarizing 4:34

[4:129] And if a woman fear ill treatment or indifference on the part of her husband, it shall be no sin on them that they be suitably reconciled to each other; and reconciliation is best. And people are prone to covetousness. If you do good and are righteous, surely Allah is aware of what you do.


The verse 33:51 you qoute is aligned with 33:29-30 which says

[33:29] O Prophet! say to thy wives, ‘If you desire the life of this world and its adornment, come then, I will provide for you and send you away in a handsome manner.
[33:30] ‘But if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the Home of the Hereafter, then truly Allah has prepared for those of you who do good a great reward.’


The wives of the Holy Prophet were given a choice of either living well in this life or being closer to God. Islamic scholars all agree that all marriages of Holy Prophet were not motivated by desire of the women but a greater cause. With the exception of Aisha, all of Holy Prophets wives were divorced or widows. He blew the lid off muslim slave owners by marrying a slave women and calling her 'the mother of all faithful' and in the process dealing the biggest blow to slave owners in Arabia and among Muslims who still owned slave. he married a widow which resulted in 100s of people from a Tribe being freed from slave captivity. He Married Maimunah who was instrumental in the education of many Muslim women, many people know Aisha but not many know Maimunah

http://www.onislam.net/english/read...ives/411329-a-woman-of-submission-to-god.html

Aishah bint Abi Bakr, the wife of Prophet Muhammad, said: "Maimunah was the best amongst us, as she feared Allah most and maintained a close and continuous relationship with her kin." (Al-Hakim 8:181)

The words "if she offers herself for marriage" is especially for Maimunah who offered herself to marry him.


If you educate yourself on Islam, you can learn alot

 

[Walpurgis]

Having a strict and very tight codex for your community to live by, exploiting minorities or even excel at war all while living in a mud hut and feeding the poor, busy being the perfect human being.
Nope, never heard that story before.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Interceptor]

There is no flaw. I still don't see it. You just believe that religious scholars are a waste of everyone's time. There is no arguing with you. You just didn't like me defiling a good 'ol American gif with muslimmy stuff.

Don´t focus on American gifs. I´m not even american. I know you don´t see the flaw, that what makes it so meaningful, sad and hilarious. You wrongly edited a random gif, i really don´t care about, to tell retell it´s joke only with an islamic punchline. But you missed the point. ^^ The original has equals. 1.000 studies versus a single one. And the moronic believer (the woman) chose the single one because it suits her personal beliefs ignoring all facts.

Your version has 1.000 anti vaccine studies but from within the anti vac movement. Or 1.000 homeopaths praying it works against one single study. You messed up the punchline. It´s like having 1.000 priests saying there was no abuse in the church versus an actual victim. That´s not how that gif worked. It was the exact opposite. You are becoming the one who choses whatever source that fits his needs (belief system).
But whatever. I need to sleep. Your holy book will be there tomorrow as well. Islam did nothing wrong and ISIS are all just confused children and victims of US interventions. ^^ The world is so easy.

Edit: There come the quotes again. xD

...

historical facts are time to stop posting? Hmm. Ok.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Is Muhammed flying up to heaven on a winged horse true history?

how does interpretation work again..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw8jil4nPLU

spiritual journey, why do you need a horse to go upwards when God is everywhere. Heaven is not up. its another dimension.

This is proven by Hadith where Hadhrat Aisha woke Holy Prophet up where he said he went to heaven. this again shows it was spiritual. He said 'My heart saw Heaven' . A heart doesnt see heaven physically, thus against proving it was spiritual journey.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I do find the Muslim need to defend Islam quite fascinating. To be fair I would probably do the same if I was still indoctrinated that my parents religion was still the absolute truth.

I was a Mormon and we faced similar issues with "fundementalists" continuing polygamy. it was the same story, they are interpreting it wrong, scholars say this is what it really means, that was necessary at the time but God says don't do that anymore... On and on to justify some backwards ass shit people wanted to do and use divine justifications for.

Let me just tell you, it's far easier to simply admit the source material is completely bullshit than continue to go through the mental hoops required to square what the founders of the religion actually said and did with modern morals.

 

[nib95]

Ah the old fake cycle argument that the book says Kill Apostates. Lets Destroy this argument again for the sake of discussion -

Let us look at what the Holy Quran says:

“Admonish, therefore, for thou art but an admonisher;
Thou hast no authority to compel them.
But whoever turns away and disbelieves,
Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment (Hell)
Unto Us surely is their return,
Then, surely, it is for Us to call them to account.”
— Surah Al-Ghashiya 22-27

Does this suggest that anyone who disbelieves after believing will go to hell? That is not entirely the case. Here is how this is explained by the Quran:

“Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.”
— Surah Al-Nisa 138

“Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed — save him who is forced thereto while his heart finds peace in the faith — but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is Allah’s wrath; and they shall have a severe punishment.”
— Surah Al-Nahl 107

The message to Muslims is that the punishment of Apostasy is not be applied by man, but by God himself. Here is what the Quran says in this respect:
“We know best what they say; and thou hast not been appointed to compel them in any way. So admonish, by means of the Qur’an, him who fears My warning.”
— Surah Al-Qaf 46

“And as for those who take for themselves protectors beside Him, Allah watches over them; and thou art not a guardian over them.”
— Surah Al-Shura 7

“But if they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guardian over them. Thy duty is only to convey the Message. And truly when We cause man to taste of mercy from Us, he rejoices therein. But if an evil befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, then lo! man is ungrateful.”
— Surah Al-Shura 49

“Say, ‘Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger.’ But if you turn away, then upon him is his burden, and upon you is your burden. And if you obey him, you will be rightly guided. And the messenger is not responsible but for the plain delivery of the Message.”
— Surah Al-Nur 55

“And say, ‘It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ Verily, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose flaming canopy shall enclose them. And if they cry for help, they will be helped with water like molten lead which will burn the faces. How dreadful the drink, and how evil is the Fire as a resting place!”
— Surah Al-Kahf 30

“But if they turn away, then thou art responsible only for the plain delivery of the Message.”
— Surah Al-Nahl 83

These are just the few of the many examples proving that anyone who disbelieves is doing it on their own detriment in the eyes of God but the purpose for Muslims is only to deliver the message of God. One of the biggest and clearest verses of Man only following Islam and God being the punisher (not Man) is in the following verse

“ And whether We make thee see the fulfilment of some of the things with which We threaten them or whether We make thee die, it makes little difference, for on thee lies only the delivery of the Message, and on Us the reckoning.”
— Surah Al-Ra'd 41

At this point the question you ask yourself, If Quran is this clear about how to treat apostates, where is the criticism coming from. The extremists who defy Allah, by choosing to follow suspect hadith over the word of God are the ones who set the example incorrectly. Ask yourself the question looking at it logically, from a Muslim perspective, Quran is the word of God and authentic Ahadith are a collection of words and actions of the Holy Prophet (saw), which takes precedent? what do you think? The primary source of the incorrect tradition from Ahadith is explained here by Hadhrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad Khalifatul Masih IV in his book "Murder in the name of Allah":

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html

An Authentic ahadith is that which does not contradict the Quran especially considering that Ahadith were compiled 200-300 after the death of the Holy Prophet (saw)

Here is a Powerpoint of how to distinguish between Authentic Ahadeeth and those which might be suspect

http://www.alislam.org/holyprophet/Authenticity-of-Hadith.pptx


You mentioned if things are so obvious why are people disagreeing, You are right. If we are Humans why do we still have race issues in the world. People are stupid, this is why people accept false opinions as facts and accept voilence and hate as a first resort

First, a fundamentalist by definition is someone who follows the fundamentals of something, a constitutionalist is a fundamentalist to the constitution but not an extremist, its often an oxymoron



secondly such illiiterate statements are abundant when faith is viewed with a prism of hate.

I have already written on this and you are ignored this before:

Critics and Extremists say Islam says women should be forced into doing Hijab and dress modestly and they often cite the following verse:
““Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them...””
— Al-Ahzab 60
If you notice, this is the typical behavior from such critics and extremists when you look at entire verse:
“O Prophet! tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers that they should draw close to them portions of their loose outer coverings. That is nearer that they may thus be distinguished and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.”
— Al-Ahzab 60
Thus it is a suggestion, not a command that women should dress modesty so as to not be looked at like objects of desire especially from men like to take advantage of women and hurt them sexually.

The next verse critics and extremists cite is
“And say to the believing women that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts, and that they disclose not their natural and artificial beauty except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms, and that they disclose not their beauty save to their husbands, or to their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands or their sons or the sons of their husbands or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or what their right hands possess, or such of male attendants as have no sexual appetite, or young children who have no knowledge of the hidden parts of women. And they strike not their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may become known. And turn ye to Allah all together, O believers, that you may succeed.”
— Surah Al-Nur 32
This is a suggestion to women again that they may dress modestly which again is to not make men look at women like sexual objects. If anything this verse gives women a higher status than these critics who want women to be seen as sexual objects for their own desires. This verse gives women a higher level of respect than critics of moderate dressing can ever think of giving women. If you look at it objectively, this verse would be something that every women's rights group can support due to Islam's suggestions to treat women as equal in spiritually not as an object of desire.

The critics of Islam then say women are asked to restrain their eyes as if women are exclusively asked to dress modestly and restrain their eyes. This is the answer from God:
“Say to the believing men that they restrain their eyes and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Surely, Allah is well aware of what they do.”
— Surah Al-Nur 31
This is just one verse before the verse critics cite. One has to wonder if this push to try and show women are held inferior is actual criticism or has malicious intent or are such critics and extremists so aloof that they cannot read the whole Quran before criticizing it?

Critics and extremists suggest women are only worth half a witness as compared to men and they cite verse 2:283. lets look at the verse:
“O ye who believe! when you borrow one from another for a fixed period, then write it down. And let a scribe write it in your presence faithfully; and no scribe should refuse to write, because Allah has taught him, so let him write and let him who incurs the liability dictate; and he should fear Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything therefrom. But if the person incurring the liability be of low understanding or be weak or be unable himself to dictate, then let someone who can watch his interest dictate with justice. And call two witnesses from among your men; and if two men be not available, then a man and two women, of such as you like as witnesses, so that if either of two women should err in memory, then one may remind the other. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called. And do not feel weary of writing it down, whether it be small or large, along with its appointed time of payment. This is more equitable in the sight of Allah and makes testimony surer and is more likely to keep you away from doubts; therefore omit not to write except that it be ready merchandise which you give or take from hand to hand, in which case it shall be no sin for you that you write it not. And have witnesses when you sell one to another; and let no harm be done to the scribe or the witness. And if you do that, then certainly it shall be disobedience on your part. And fear Allah. And Allah grants you knowledge and Allah knows all things well.”
— Surah Al-Baqarah 283
The part
“ ...And call two witnesses from among your men; and if two men be not available, then a man and two women, of such as you like as witnesses, so that if either of two women should err in memory, then one may remind the other. ....”
Is cited as saying Islam views women as half a witness. The question needs to be asked to these critics and extremists, What would happen if the first women does not err in memory? They will be dumbfounded and found out because of the hatred within their hearts they have stopped thinking rationally and logically. If a woman does not err in memory then the testimony of the 2nd woman is not even needed which then results in both and man and woman being equal in measures of testimony in court and being witnesses.

The question is raised why is the 2nd woman needed in the first place and the answer is to look at your own society, Since time immemorial business has been conducted mostly by men and it is still, in the most liberal of societies been conducted mostly by men. This verse suggests that in such a case where men are predominantly the businessmen and the business decision makers, they would know the intricate dealings of finances more than a woman would in such a case which is why the err in memory is suggested considering women deal with business less than men. its a suggestion which fits into a similar situation of a business which is predominantly women, would you have more women witnesses in the business or men? Its common sense.


Here is what the Quran actually says about equality between Man and a Woman

“Surely, men who submit themselves to God and women who submit themselves to Him, and believing men and believing women, and obedient men and obedient women and truthful men and truthful women, and men steadfast in their faith and steadfast women, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, and men who remember Allah much and women who remember Him — Allah has prepared for all of them forgiveness and a great reward.”
— Surah Al-Ahzab 36
“O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah, in Whose name you appeal to one another, and fear Him particularly respecting ties of relationship. Verily, Allah watches over you.”
— Surah Al-Nisa 2
“So their Lord answered their prayers, saying, ‘I will allow not the work of any worker from among you, whether male or female, to be lost. You are from one another. Those, therefore, who have emigrated, and have been driven out from their homes, and have been persecuted in My cause, and have fought and been killed, I will surely remove from them their evils and will cause them to enter Gardens through which streams flow — a reward from Allah, and with Allah is the best of rewards.’”
— Surah Aal-e-`Imran 196
“O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female; and We have made you into tribes and sub-tribes that you may recognize one another. Verily, the most honourable among you, in the sight of Allah, is he who is the most righteous among you. Surely, Allah is All-knowing, All-Aware.”
— Surah Al-Hujurat 14


See the Quran views Men and Women through their souls not their bodies. Gender is a thing for this life whereas God views and wants Man to view the afterlife as infinitely more important that this life, God only loves the soul of the man and women and they are equal in the eyes of God because God sees whats equally good within humans not outside them

Ah picked right from religionofpeace islam hating website I see . lets begin.



Islam views the family setup as being mostly men are best at earning and women are best at upbringing of a child, nowhere does it mention that men are ALL supposed to only earn and women are all supposed to upbring a child only. As women are incharge of the home in most part, the obedient part is directly related to a few verses before it which you ignored because you only copy pasted and didnt study anything:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (Qur’an 4:19)


The word Obedient in Quran is Nushuz which in Arabic lexicon is: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord

This doesn't mean that Quran is saying a wife says She wont cook food today so husband will chastise, this refers to only when the wife is physical and verbally abusive to a man.

If you actually did study Quran, it focuses on the aspect on transgression, it discourages it against your wife. The verse is not about retaliating against your wife, it is about preventing because look what the beginning of the verse says where some men (in this case physically) are bigger and men especially as they have anger issues are told to supress their anger.

They are first told to tell them to stop the Animosity towards them, the hostility towards tehm, the ill treatment towards them and even physical abuse towards them, this can range from weeks to months

Then if the wife still continues with above are told to sleep in separate beds for 6 months. how many marriages would be resolved in this time is only a question you can answer

then if the wife still continues with above the man is asked to chastise his wife in the manner described in the most authentic hadiths say

Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2137:
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
Mu'awiyah asked: Apostle of Allah, what is the right of the wife of one of us over him? He replied: That you should give her food when you eat, clothe her when you clothe yourself, do not strike her on the face, do not revile her or separate yourself from her except in the house.

Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2138:
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:
I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.

Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2139:
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
I went to the Apostle of Allah and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.

Muslim, Book 009, Number 3526:
Fatima bint Qais reported that her husband divorced her with three, pronouncements and Allah's Messenger made no provision for her lodging and maintenance allowance. She (further said): Allah's Messenger said to me: When your period of 'Idda is over, inform me. So I informed him. (By that time) Mu'awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah's Messenger said: So far as Mu'awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid. she pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah's Messenger said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy.


Thus the "Beating" is not a beating and is nothing more then feather touching the skin level of push after 9 months of a wife abusing her husband if the relationship lasts that long, this is how much restraint man has been asked to endure in marriage and how much Islam asks Marriage to remain instead of dissolve.


This aspect of reconcilation over beating is proven in a later verse which you also ignored, an instruction given to women summarizing 4:34

[4:129] And if a woman fear ill treatment or indifference on the part of her husband, it shall be no sin on them that they be suitably reconciled to each other; and reconciliation is best. And people are prone to covetousness. If you do good and are righteous, surely Allah is aware of what you do.


The verse 33:51 you qoute is aligned with 33:29-30 which says

[33:29] O Prophet! say to thy wives, ‘If you desire the life of this world and its adornment, come then, I will provide for you and send you away in a handsome manner.
[33:30] ‘But if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the Home of the Hereafter, then truly Allah has prepared for those of you who do good a great reward.’


The wives of the Holy Prophet were given a choice of either living well in this life or being closer to God. Islamic scholars all agree that all marriages of Holy Prophet were not motivated by desire of the women but a greater cause. With the exception of Aisha, all of Holy Prophets wives were divorced or widows. He blew the lid off muslim slave owners by marrying a slave women and calling her 'the mother of all faithful' and in the process dealing the biggest blow to slave owners in Arabia and among Muslims who still owned slave. he married a widow which resulted in 100s of people from a Tribe being freed from slave captivity. He Married Maimunah who was instrumental in the education of many Muslim women, many people know Aisha but not many know Maimunah

http://www.onislam.net/english/read...ives/411329-a-woman-of-submission-to-god.html

Aishah bint Abi Bakr, the wife of Prophet Muhammad, said: "Maimunah was the best amongst us, as she feared Allah most and maintained a close and continuous relationship with her kin." (Al-Hakim 8:181)

The words "if she offers herself for marriage" is especially for Maimunah who offered herself to marry him.


If you educate yourself on Islam, you can learn alot

Fantastic contributions dude. Very insightful and well researched.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Wow! Just wow, I don't even have the words for all this

Is it really true that according to Islam "he is allowed to rape an unbeliever"?

From the article:

In much the same way as specific Bible passages were used centuries later to support the slave trade in the United States, the Islamic State cites specific verses or stories in the Quran or else in the Sunna, the traditions based on the sayings and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad, to justify their human trafficking, experts say.

Scholars of Islamic theology disagree, however, on the proper interpretation of these verses, and on the divisive question of whether Islam actually sanctions slavery.

Many argue that slavery figures in Islamic scripture in much the same way that it figures in the Bible — as a reflection of the period in antiquity in which the religion was born.

“In the milieu in which the Quran arose, there was a widespread practice of men having sexual relationships with unfree women,” said Kecia Ali, an associate professor of religion at Boston University and the author of a book on slavery in early Islam. “It wasn’t a particular religious institution. It was just how people did things.”

Cole Bunzel, a scholar of Islamic theology at Princeton University, disagrees, pointing to the numerous references to the phrase “Those your right hand possesses” in the Quran, which for centuries has been interpreted to mean female slaves. He also points to the corpus of Islamic jurisprudence, which continues into the modern era and which he says includes detailed rules for the treatment of slaves.

“There is a great deal of scripture that sanctions slavery,” said Mr. Bunzel, the author of a research paper published by the Brookings Institution on the ideology of the Islamic State. “You can argue that it is no longer relevant and has fallen into abeyance. ISIS would argue that these institutions need to be revived, because that is what the Prophet and his companions did.”

 

[Interceptor]

I do find the Muslim need to defend Islam quite fascinating. To be fair I would probably do the same if I was still indoctrinated that my parents religion was still the absolute truth.

I was a Mormon and we faced similar issues with "fundementalists" continuing polygamy. it was the same story, they are interpreting it wrong, scholars say this is what it really means, that was necessary at the time but God says don't do that anymore... On and on to justify some backwards ass shit people wanted to do and use divine justifications for.

Let me just tell you, it's far easier to simply admit the source material is completely bullshit than continue to go through the mental hoops required to square what the founders of the religion actually said and did with modern morals.

The video in the post just before yours fits so perfectly to this its hilarious. It´s sooo strange to even discuss this in this time and age.
It´s like sitting in a christmas play, adoring the strange hats and the cute story while everyone around you starts praying to Santa Claus. It´s so unreal.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

ISIS still got a long road ahead of them, until they're even close.

I disagree. They only lack the power, not the will or the intention. In terms of purely evil intent, they are on par.

I'd say the savagery ISIS displays is already on par with with the nazis.

Aye.

Third world countries in general are not known for their progressive and pro-human rights values either.

Is every Islamic country a third world country then? I should think not? But if so, well, I wonder why that is... considering many of these countries are indeed quite wealthy and not lacking in resources and infrastructure. It's as if there was some backward state religion holding back their social progress... or even, like in the case of Iran or Afghanistan, outright being driven backwards.

Again if you compare muslim countries to non muslim countries in the same region or control for level of development suddenly the 'evidence' for "There's something weird about that there eyeslam" suddenly starts fading.

Hah, no, not when the lack of progressive/human rights values are justified by the Sharia Law.

Interestingly, one of the most progressive Islamic country is Turkey (I am somewhat baffled that they rank lower than the UAE in the IHRRI list, must be because of all that genocide denial... I can't think of anything else), and it's actually a secular country not ruled by Sharia law.

Are you honestly saying that if someone thinks the Quran is the perfect word of god they're fundamentalist extremists? What kind of craziness is that?

I don't know about extremist, but they're certainly fundamentalist. FWIW that's also true of Christians and the Bible.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an 4:34

Another beauty

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Qur'an 33:50

B-b-but context! I mean this was all very progressive for the 7th century!

Spoiler

/s

Let me just tell you, it's far easier to simply admit the source material is completely bullshit than continue to go through the mental hoops required to square what the founders of the religion actually said and did with modern morals.

I don't know about "easier". It seems that believers do not find it easy at all. They even get very offended when you so much as criticize their source material. It's certainly simpler, though. ^^

 

[TheAutomator]

The video in the post just before yours fits so perfectly to this its hilarious. It´s sooo strange to even discuss this in this time and age.
It´s like sitting in a christmas play, adoring the strange hats and the cute story while everyone around you starts praying to Santa Claus. It´s so unreal.

I'm no muslim, but are we gonna sit here and insult people who follow a religion? Really?

 

[Pennywise]

I disagree. They only lack the power, not the will or the intention. In terms of purely evil intent, they are on par.

Have a look at my posting on this page. I basically agree with you.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Have a look at my posting on this page. I basically agree with you.

Fair enough, gotcha!

 

[Interceptor]

I'm no muslim, but are we gonna sit here and insult people who follow a religion? Really?

The religion, not the people. Its also not like making fun of something you are born with. It´s making fun of something you chose to have. Thats the very important distinction here. Faith might be shoved into a kids brain, as a functioning adult you choose to have it.
If you choose to believe in the tooth fairy, yes, deal with the public reception of your belief.
If you choose to believe a guy who raped and married a 9-year old is the ideal role model for all of humanity - then yes, deal with the public reception of your self chosen faith.
Which brings us back to the topic of this thread.

 

[boiled goose]

For such a perfect book, it sure does require lots of rationalization.

How about it instead said, don't beat women?

So.. winged horse? Yay or nay?

 

[m_shortpants]

I'm no muslim, but are we gonna sit here and insult people who follow a religion? Really?

The religion, not the people. Its also not like making fun of something you are born with. It´s making fun of something you chose to have. Thats the very important distinction here. Faith might be shoved into a kids brain, as a functioning adult you choose to have it.
If you choose to believe in the tooth fairy, yes, deal with the public reception of your belief.
If you choose to believe a guy who raped and married a 9-year old is the ideal role model for all of humanity - then yes, deal with the public reception of your self chosen faith.
Which brings us back to the topic of this thread.

So...yes.

Instead of bringing any real, salient points, he just insults people with drive-by posts and then acts innocuous when challenged on motive.

Fantastic contributions dude. Very insightful and well researched.

The funniest thing about this thread is that regular old peaceful and progressive Muslims like maninthemirror et al, people arguing for progressive Islam, are exactly the kind of people we want more of in the middle east. Instead however, they are mocked/insulted more and more as if that's solving anything. Like I said before, people will invoke no true scotsman all day to validate ISIS, but then claim that their's is the valid and true interpretation, no exceptions.

 

[Last Uchiha]

These are some fucking garbage ass websites. Please come back with a site that doesn't look like someone threw up ads all over it, one that cites sources and also gives details on polling methods.



You do realize the Kurds and Iran are fighting ISIS? You do realize ISIS has bombed Saudi Arabia?

ISIS's number one victim are Muslims. Yet they're both two sides of the same coin.



...what.

What do you mean these are some garbage ass website? Aljazeera is an muslims news channel run by muslims.You can clearly see many muslims going back to middle east to help isis. I am here for argument but I am not for changing the facts.
You are the one who wanna change the fact. You think your islam is different from isis and its not. Islam is a theory for mass destruction and spoiling people minds.

islam was sexism, intolerance and none sense even before the isis showed up. Still I believe that they are 2 sides of a same coins. I am tired of seeing muslims go all over the place and destroy/kill everyone they don't like.

Islam is extremely dangerous and must be against the law to follow such a religion.

 

[boiled goose]

So...yes.

Instead of bringing any real, salient points, he just insults people with drive-by posts and then acts innocuous when challenged on motive.




The funniest thing about this thread is that regular old peaceful and progressive Muslims like maninthemirror et al, people arguing for progressive Islam, are exactly the kind of people we want more of in the middle east. Instead however, they are mocked/insulted more and more as if that's solving anything. Like I said before, people will invoke no true scotsman all day to validate ISIS, but then claim that their's is the valid and true interpretation, no exceptions.

I think the point is that all interpretations are picking and choosing, so they should dump the religion all together.

 

[orochi91]

Islam is extremely dangerous and must be against the law to follow such a religion.

I think you mean fanaticism in general, not Islam/religion.

Though if you're being sincere with your generalizations about Islam and Muslims,then I must say it warms my heart to know this wish of yours will never come true

 

[Duji]

To me the word Muslim is just a label. You really can't imply anything from it. I have a family member who identifies as Muslim but doesn't believe the Quran is God's word. What matters is the actual content of the person's beliefs -- and it's different for everyone. That's what our friend Uchiha and many non Muslims don't seem to understand.

I don't care what the name of your religion is, but if you think death is an appropriate punishment for leaving your religion, or that homosexuals should be killed, or that adulterers should be stoned to death, or that sorcery is a real thing and should be punishable, or that slavery is or ever was acceptable under any circumstance, then there's a problem. Incidentally a DISTURBING number of Muslims hold some of these beliefs, and it's a problem that needs to be fixed through education, not "deletion" (seriously what the fuck was that?).

 

[Undubbed]

The mere fact that a text can be 'interpreted' just places a religious text into question if not the entire religion itself. I mean, it's supposed to be the absolute truth, right? How is interpretation ever a thing in strict religions like the Abrahamic ones?

Interpretation is practically guaranteed to produce contradictory beliefs within the religion, making the whole thing suspect to many people like myself.