I would be more than willing to contribute to an actual discussion about why fetishized violence and sexualization cannot inherently be compared. With a thread setup like this, a snarky, holier-than-thou OP that immediately makes the discussion lopsided, I don't see the point.
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It amuses me how violence in games is largely accepted but nudity and sex aren't.
- Thread starter CelticVegas
- Start date
I would be more than willing to contribute to an actual discussion about why fetishized violence and sexualization cannot inherently be compared. With a thread setup like this, a snarky, holier-than-thou OP that immediately makes the discussion lopsided, I don't see the point.
PodcastFips
Member
I thought it's just the Americans who freak out as soon as there is nudity within games.
Conkerkid11
Member
Why are you suggesting that the only other approach is to combine the two?
SomedayTheFire
Member
That's literally what most people hate about those games.
Because sex is easy. If you had Snake or Geralt's combat ability, you might enjoy using it.
Not all forms of sexualization are equal.
Sexual objectification is a bad thing.
Sexualization in itself is not a bad thing.
Dark Ninja
Member
Unfortunately the target audience and people who play the most M rated games is kids ages 10 and up.
Boy, I want me some erotical violence!
As for the thread: I think Bayonnetta is striking a nice balance
Hit the Lever!
SomedayTheFire
Member
Yeah a lot of people don't understand the difference between the two.
It's a throwback to Victorian sensibilities.
During the industrial revolution, when poverty and high society became more aware of each other and there was more friction between them, the Victorians (also Christian) did all they could to codify and 'standardise' how people should behave or think. Basically they wanted to normalise everything (which is an evolutionary drive, in their defence).
There were horrific, widely-read pamphlets about how:
> nudity is abhorrent and manners were the most important thing
> never talk about sex, it's taboo
> always be prim and proper in behaviour - manners and politeness (read: not talking about stuff) is paramount
> a woman should do everything for her man and be totally monogamous (there's a bit about it here and it ties directly to this topic)
> nudity in any way is totally taboo (see: full-body swimsuits and swim-dresses for women from the time)
> violence was the realm of 'men' and isn't a taboo (though women shouldn't talk about such things)
(I can find evidence of this, but all my reading/resources are from about 3 years ago when I studied it at university, so it would take some time.)
Basically, in all modern media, we are still chained in a subtle way to these old sensibilities (in my opinion, this is informed conjecture). The origins of Hollywood still inform the tropes and patterns of modern mainstream cinema. Same goes for mainstream games, which are far earlier in their development. Hollywood broke out of the violence stuff in the '60s, and literature broke out of everything in the 1910s. Games also require the catalyst of violence as an action-marker/gameplay mechanic, which is fair enough.
TL;DR: from the Industrial Revolution (the codification of Christian, ie Victorian, sensibilities), nudity/sex was marked as a taboo topic of discussion. Violence, however, has never been marked as a taboo topic of discussion.
This is true, I've taken the topic as being focused only on AAA-games, as they are most in the public eye.
That's a very Amerocentric view you have, based on America's puritanical heritage. It also spreads far beyond video games into movies and other media. Thanks to America's cultural hegemony, it's also something that's spreading across the world.
Appropriate this thread was made close to Thanksgiving, it's another thing you can give thanks to your puritanical forefathers for.
Appropriate this thread was made close to Thanksgiving, it's another thing you can give thanks to your puritanical forefathers for.
I wish people would get this, so the discussion didn't devolve into "you don't like sex, you puritan! You just want everyone in burkas!" like it always does.
And then you also get examples like this thread that sets up a shitty strawman as if violence is accepted, yet sexualization isn't.
This as well
CelticVegas
Banned
Lol at people calling rapresentation of sex and nudity childish. Violence is a lot more childish in every single game. And that's here without justifications. But that's fine, right? It's really a shame most people are really ok with gore and stuff more than boobs and dicks. Take Fallout 4,you can dismember dead bodies but there isn't even a kiss on this game.pathetic.
But most answers already told it's more a us thing
God bless Europe and Japan then.
But most answers already told it's more a us thing
God bless Europe and Japan then.
I may be a bit off here, but wouldn't porn, like usual pornvideos fall under the former?
Yep and something many people can't seem to grasp when they hear someone criticizing certain video game characters.
To the posters who replied with: "I am fine with cringeworthy killing, but I am not fine with cringeworthy sex" - you do not seem to realize that the only thing that happened to you is that you have become desensitized to one and not to the other.
I can guarantee you that if we lived in a paralell world where sex were the norm and violence would be uneccaptable in games (just like in real life, yo!), you would post the reverse, with not able to bear cringeworthy violence bullshit.
So saying that is NOT an opinion, it is proof that we have a cultural issue to deal with.
Yes, because video games who deal with violence give so much agency to the opponents. They are not objectified at all.
There is a dichotomy within these arguments, and it is clear as day.
I can guarantee you that if we lived in a paralell world where sex were the norm and violence would be uneccaptable in games (just like in real life, yo!), you would post the reverse, with not able to bear cringeworthy violence bullshit.
So saying that is NOT an opinion, it is proof that we have a cultural issue to deal with.
Yes, because video games who deal with violence give so much agency to the opponents. They are not objectified at all.
There is a dichotomy within these arguments, and it is clear as day.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In the context of both sex AND violence, violence and military/weaponry fetish figures into the core of many video games' appeal. It's just as much tapping into the dark psychology drawn from our skewed society as any sexualization of women is.
Or is violence next on the agenda to scrub from gaming?
It definitely can be, I never said it couldn't. I don't think "power fantasy" entertainment is childish in itself, but some games do take it to ridiculous levels.
But violence serves a "purpose" in a lot of games (add conflict and challenges that a player needs to overcome).
Nudity rarely serves a purpose outside of cheap upskirts and tit shots and contribute nothing to the overall play of a game.
CelticVegas
Banned
NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
Sex and nudity in games typically comes off as awkward and unnecessary. Honestly, I'd rather just see it implied (like Mass Effect), than thrown into a game.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I think its very specifically to do with American culture as represented in the media, and how over time things have drifted into a very strange place in terms of what is and what is not acceptable.
Most blatant and bizarre example is a network show like Hannibal which contains some of the most heinous and graphic violence imaginable, but cant show so much as a nipple without falling foul of standards and practices!
Its a really peculiar state of affairs that I feel games have willingly "inherited".
Most blatant and bizarre example is a network show like Hannibal which contains some of the most heinous and graphic violence imaginable, but cant show so much as a nipple without falling foul of standards and practices!
Its a really peculiar state of affairs that I feel games have willingly "inherited".
SomedayTheFire
Member
Yes. Porn has a horrible history of exploiting women in vulnerable positions. Listen to some stuff ex porn stars say. It can be a horrible industry for some women. But yes, on the other hand there are some studios that treat their stars well.
That's the fault of the designers, not the inherent qualities of nudity or violence.
(I know you weren't saying it wasn't. Just opening up the discussion.)
Did I say that violence isn't problematic as well? Look at my first post in this thread. This whole thread is set up as a false dichotomy. Yes, you can criticize sexual objectification while at the same time criticize the fetishization of violence in our culture.
The post you quoted I was pointing out that people have this misconception that criticism over sexualization in media isn't about sex in itself, but sexual objectification. This seems to be flying over people's head and they resort to having a very primitive and overly simplistic understanding of what the criticism is about. It's not as simple as "boobs are bad".
Vincent Grayson
Member
I'm all in favor of more examinations of sex and sexuality in games.
The problem I have with the industry currently is that treatment of both sex and sexuality is so far from reality, and unlike violence, sex and sexuality are good, normal things. I don't particularly *want* to see them if they can't be done well.
IMO, when people write off this dichotomy with remarks like "some people are just afraid of sexuality" when the discussion turns to exploitative use of women, their bodies, and maybe a *tiny* aspect of sexuality itself, they're being intentionally obtuse, because to me it's abundantly clear that sex and sexuality would be perfectly reasonable things to feature in a game, but instead what we get is very, very biased towards one sex (generally), often obviously there for titillation only (or primarily), and that's not doing anyone any favors.
The problem I have with the industry currently is that treatment of both sex and sexuality is so far from reality, and unlike violence, sex and sexuality are good, normal things. I don't particularly *want* to see them if they can't be done well.
IMO, when people write off this dichotomy with remarks like "some people are just afraid of sexuality" when the discussion turns to exploitative use of women, their bodies, and maybe a *tiny* aspect of sexuality itself, they're being intentionally obtuse, because to me it's abundantly clear that sex and sexuality would be perfectly reasonable things to feature in a game, but instead what we get is very, very biased towards one sex (generally), often obviously there for titillation only (or primarily), and that's not doing anyone any favors.
That's right.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
People say sex in video games is shit and childish... but are you guys saying violence isn't as well?
justsomeguy
Member
tbh I am fully accepting of sex and nudity.
Its a societal values thing. Simulated violence is acceptable, but simulated sexuality/sex is uncomfortable. Remember the Janet Jackson hu-ha, god forbid we see a breast in the break between our sport where people tackle each other.
This may be an interesting read.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ValuesDissonance/VideoGames
Personally I think people should just be a bit more desensitized to something harmless. Like it's absurd that the rating for Persona 4 is so different in the US and Japan.
This may be an interesting read.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ValuesDissonance/VideoGames
Personally I think people should just be a bit more desensitized to something harmless. Like it's absurd that the rating for Persona 4 is so different in the US and Japan.
You really need to stop setting up this false dichotomy. You are putting people in a position where they have to defend something they don't actually believe just to be able to respond to you at all. That is very bad form.
There isn't a cultural shift on the planet that would make something like the Quiet scene (correctly and brilliant described as "Kojima's wank bank on screen" on the last page) or a God of War cutscene look acceptable.
The problem with those isn't that they involve sex, which I'd have no problem with if they were done well. It's that they're just frequently TERRIBLE in their execution.
Like I asked on the previous page, I'd be genuinely interested if there are any good examples of well done sex scenes or nudity in gaming. AAA gaming seems like an absolute wasteland for it.
Sapphire Dreams
Member
That doesn't mean we shouldn't prevent people from using it. We should give devs the chance to make mature nudity and sex.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Personally not a fan of the violence in some games nowadays, and I am a fan of exploring sexuality and sensuality in games, problem for me is that there is a major imbalance representing both genders in that department. Having one gender as the designated target for sexualisation is objectification based on gender, and we really still need to broaden the spectrum of sex that is explored in games.
Sex isn't the problem. I don't even really think being treated as an object of sex is a bad thing because hey, that's how some people are and that's fine, they can live their life as they wish. It's the fact that one gender is pigeonholed as an object of sex where the problem arises.
Sex isn't the problem. I don't even really think being treated as an object of sex is a bad thing because hey, that's how some people are and that's fine, they can live their life as they wish. It's the fact that one gender is pigeonholed as an object of sex where the problem arises.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It is? Pretty sure violence and sex both lead to higher age ratings, as does swearing, consumption of drugs, gore and a myriad of other reasons.
The last game to get an AO rating was because of violence not sex.
The last game to get an AO rating was because of violence not sex.
It's also worth bearing in mind that violence is an active noun, nudity is a passive noun.
Games require action to be interactive. Violence is the second most basic, essential human action. It's little wonder we default to that for a game mechanic.
Nudity is a passive event or fact. It's not essential to an interactive media because 'nudity' isn't an interaction. Interaction with nudity, as a game mechanic, is more complex culturally and mechanically.
This is a more functional argument, I guess.
See my post above for one of the possible reasons why.
Games require action to be interactive. Violence is the second most basic, essential human action. It's little wonder we default to that for a game mechanic.
Nudity is a passive event or fact. It's not essential to an interactive media because 'nudity' isn't an interaction. Interaction with nudity, as a game mechanic, is more complex culturally and mechanically.
This is a more functional argument, I guess.
See my post above for one of the possible reasons why.
TatteredHat
Member
Am I allowed to avatar quote myself?
Tizoc
Member
Clearly someone never heard of Eroges....
geordiemp
Member
Violence or killing is the main game mechanic, it always has been, from shooting space invaders and killing them to being killed by their missiles, or jumping on enemies heads to kill them.
Sex has nothing really to do with gaming mechanics or play other than unnecessary graphic depictions of characters which adds nothing to the game play.
As graphics get better, the killing mechanic was always going to be more involved.
Basketball
Member
I am surprised fallout 4 doesn't really have any sexual stuff in the game
In NV there were dancers and robos that did things
Lots of games are becoming like that
I seriously don't know what devs are afraid of these days .. It's kinda sad
Specify western games
In NV there were dancers and robos that did things
Lots of games are becoming like that
I seriously don't know what devs are afraid of these days .. It's kinda sad
Specify western games
I'd love for games to include sexuality well. Historically, they're pretty bad at it though.
Games basically forever have been about overcoming obstacles, and that has led easily to violence. You want to do something/get somewhere, and NPCs (opposing agents) want to stop you. Talking is not doable by a single button and joystick, ergo violence. That's been built upon for decades.
This is starting to change, but not in the AAA space. Not most of the time there, at least.
The only times AAA games have been not completely terrible at showing sex has been in cutscenes. People call out Wolfenstein: The New Order as good, but the often referred-to scene is entirely non-interactive and presented blurrily in the background while coffee cools in the foreground. That is how little you have to do to hop over the existing bar.
Frankly, for what it's worth, Quiet in MGSV would have been more agreeable to me if she was just fucking nude. It would have more goddamn honest, and that's my biggest issue with the way bodies are presented in games. They most often pretend at not being fanservice-y when they are. You like tits and ass (or have been given the direction to provide tits and ass for marketing purposes)? Okay, present tits and ass and characters who are about that.
Not "I'm a hardass warrior woman who wants to avenge my family and also my steel brazier is really cold." More sexuality and sexual confidence in the character, shown through dialogue and action and situation and design, instead of just mostly-naked costume, please.
Games basically forever have been about overcoming obstacles, and that has led easily to violence. You want to do something/get somewhere, and NPCs (opposing agents) want to stop you. Talking is not doable by a single button and joystick, ergo violence. That's been built upon for decades.
This is starting to change, but not in the AAA space. Not most of the time there, at least.
The only times AAA games have been not completely terrible at showing sex has been in cutscenes. People call out Wolfenstein: The New Order as good, but the often referred-to scene is entirely non-interactive and presented blurrily in the background while coffee cools in the foreground. That is how little you have to do to hop over the existing bar.
Frankly, for what it's worth, Quiet in MGSV would have been more agreeable to me if she was just fucking nude. It would have more goddamn honest, and that's my biggest issue with the way bodies are presented in games. They most often pretend at not being fanservice-y when they are. You like tits and ass (or have been given the direction to provide tits and ass for marketing purposes)? Okay, present tits and ass and characters who are about that.
Not "I'm a hardass warrior woman who wants to avenge my family and also my steel brazier is really cold." More sexuality and sexual confidence in the character, shown through dialogue and action and situation and design, instead of just mostly-naked costume, please.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Of course we should. But right now, the sex and nudity in games is basically the equivalent of "all the women in the locker room are naked, and this important conversation is happening there for some reason" scenes in a movie.
CelticVegas
Banned
Sex is passive? And it's like the primary human action? I don't see your point.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think it's very easy to claim "oh of course female
objectification of women is this very specific and more important type of problem than violence in fiction is"
That's because that particular issue has been handed to us on a silver platter in the mid 2010s as an important issue du jour. We've been handed the ammo and the target by the spirit of the age. Very easy to be progressive when we've inherited all the moves to make. But the spirit of the age will change.
Violence in games is just as problematic and critiqueable. The same types of movements that decry sexualization will turn to other offensive content eventually. If you're fine with it, I'm fine with it. Just know this.
objectification of women is this very specific and more important type of problem than violence in fiction is"
That's because that particular issue has been handed to us on a silver platter in the mid 2010s as an important issue du jour. We've been handed the ammo and the target by the spirit of the age. Very easy to be progressive when we've inherited all the moves to make. But the spirit of the age will change.
Violence in games is just as problematic and critiqueable. The same types of movements that decry sexualization will turn to other offensive content eventually. If you're fine with it, I'm fine with it. Just know this.
CelticVegas
Banned
Yeah as i said before you can dismember dead bodies but that isn't even a kiss on a cheek in that game. Pathetic!