Support NeoGAF

[Lime]

I would love to have more meaningful nudity and more contextually justified sex. That's part of human nature and when it's done tastefully with agency and depth, it is greatly appreciated.

I would also love to have more meaningful violence and more contextually justified killing. Violence, death, war, etc. are also something that is (unfortunately) very present in our reality. I would appreciate if those topics were covered with more nuance.

Unfortunately both topics are woefully treated in mainstream video games and that is what people are criticizing. It's basically pulp trash where either only superficially depicted female characters fawn at the male player character or mindless drones fall over each other to get stabbed/shot in the face by the player character.

Sex and violence are terribly executed in mainstream video games and it is not fruitful to set up a thread that assumes both topics are mutually exclusive. it just reproduces the recurrent misunderstanding of criticism pertaining to sex and violence. The title and OP are incredibly misleading and poisons the conversation.

 

[Lord British]

Mmm. I never like this argument because it seems to cast violence and sex as somehow equivalent.

As an adult, I have no problem with either, though as someone else mentioned, sex/sexuality in videogames is usually embarrasing crap, so I have a better experience when it isn't there. When I take into account my nephews and nieces, I'm cool with letting them play stuff like Assassin's Creed, Loadout, UFC, whatever, because fantasy violence is fantasy violence, the feelings it evokes are generally benign or cathartic. Fantasy sex object characters or scenarios is, eh, maybe when you're older.

 

[SomTervo]

Sex is passive? And it's like the primary human action? I don't see your point.

Um... Where did I say that?

A) Nudity is passive. OP never said sex.

B) Yes, if we assume OP meant sex, too - I acknowledged that violence is the secondary - sex is absolutely the primary human action. However, we know that sex is a complex action which doesn't overcome an immediate obstacle. Interactive fiction uses overcoming obstacles to get its ideas across. Violence is the most essential human action to 'overcome obstacles'.

I mean, in the long term, yes, sex allows us to overcome the ultimate obstacle - death - but that doesn't work in moment-to-moment interactive entertainment.

 

[CelticVegas]

Mmm. I never like this argument because it seems to cast violence and sex as somehow equivalent.

As an adult, I have no problem with either, though as someone else mentioned, sex/sexuality in videogames is usually embarrasing crap, so I have a better experience when it isn't there. When I take into account my nephews and nieces, I'm cool with letting them play stuff like Assassin's Creed, Loadout, UFC, whatever, because fantasy violence is fantasy violence, the feelings it evokes are generally benign or cathartic. Fantasy sex object characters or scenarios is, eh, maybe when you're older.

This is because violence is more tolerated. And that's wrong. Simple as that.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

So what people are saying is... We need to design a fun game mechanics around sex for it to be acceptable? I mean, that's why violence is acceptable after all.

 

[stan423321]

Why are you suggesting that the only other approach is to combine the two?

Name one situation that involves sex, doesn't involve violence, and will not be considered "roughly repeatable" by a normal player/viewer. If it's relatively normal sex, then it's natural, therefore can be repeated by having normal sex, which we don't want kids to do right now. I hope.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It's not hard to understand why violence is normal/acceptable in media.

In fact the correct presumption, that some people don't understand, is that sex and violence are not "the same" or should be used as if their is a moral/logical conflict between showing any range of violence (soft to hard) vs showing sex/nudity.

The only conflict I see is with torture porn level media on mainstream shelves, but nazi level censorship/ban for a nipple or something if that same media tries to show it. The way things are now ain't so bad, not perfect but I can live with it.

 

[dity]

Oh my um... I think it's because developers like to put big bouncy boobs on screen but never large floppy dicks. Maybe? There should be more floppy dicks in games. Push the boundaries

Spoiler

with dicks

.

 

[Lord British]

This is because violence is more tolerated. And that's wrong. Simple as that.

Is it really as simple as that? I don't feel as though it is.

 

[tuxfool]

I'd love for games to include sexuality well. Historically, they're pretty bad at it though.

One could argue that the dearth of attempts to tackle the issue means it is difficult to iterate and improve in a transparent fashion.

Cultural issues create an environment where designers stick to what they know, even if bad, to maintain the status quo. They prefer to do this rather than risk stepping into a potential minefield.

 

[Finalantagonist]

In before this thread devolves into a discussion of neo-nazism and fascism:

I like sex in games even if it's poorly done. Beat 'Em and Eat 'Em is hilarious and wouldn't have any value if it wasn't for the sex themes.

 

[privitsan02]

Is this because of DOAX3? Because this has been going on for years with western games where the sexual aspects weren't even the crux of the game and yet it was getting chastised. However if the whole point of the game is getting a chubby, it would raise a few eyebrows. I personally don't know how watching girls doing sexy things in a computerized way is more interactive than the act of shooting and killing, but alas.

You're right though OP. I feel as though people just need to be less sensitive about it but there is a line that gets blurred once gaming became more mainstream and social media/societal issues became a bigger concern in 1st world countries.

Best wishes.

 

[Finalantagonist]

Oh my um... I think it's because developers like to put big bouncy boobs on screen but never large floppy dicks. Maybe? There should be more floppy dicks in games. Push the boundaries

Spoiler

with dicks

.

We all want big floppy dicks. No one's arguing that.

You go be a developer and make this game for us. That way we don't have to get other developers to do it for us.

 

[Joeku]

One could argue that the dearth of attempts to tackle the issue means it is difficult to iterate and improve in a transparent fashion.

Cultural issues create an environment where designers stick to what they know, even if bad, to maintain the status quo. They prefer to do this rather than risk stepping into a potential minefield.

It's not like most video game violence approaches anything based in reality, too. At least romance is becoming more commonplace in big games. That's a step forwards, even if handled sloppily by the likes of BioWare and Bethesda most of the time.

 

[Acquiescence]

Shooting a guy in the head does seem to be considered more acceptable than exposing an entire breast in this medium, even though the latter is obviously a far more natural and innocent occurrence when it comes to our everyday life. You can get away with popping off headshots in a T-rated game, but good luck showing a pair of boobs in anything below an M-rating.

 

[Bumhead]

You're right though OP. I feel as though people just need to be less sensitive about it but there is a line that gets blurred once gaming became more mainstream and social media/societal issues became a bigger concern in 1st world countries.

I don't even think it's as in depth, complex or societal as this though.

It's just that the sex scenes we do get are, on the whole, absolutely shit.

 

[Finalantagonist]

Shooting a guy in the head does seem to be considered more acceptable than exposing an entire breast in this medium, even though the latter is obviously a far more natural and innocent occurrence when it comes to our everyday life. You can get away with popping off headshots in a T-rated game, but good luck showing a pair of boobs in anything below an M-rating.

It's not even the whole breast. Just the nipple. And only if it's lady-nipple.

I demand more lady-nipple.

 

[Zaptruder]

If games treated sex like it did violence...

your typical game might have as among the first thing you do, an intro to a story about how some guy slept with your significant other, and the first thing you pick up is a dildo, and very shortly, horny people of all types start rushing at you with their own dildos, and you start going to town on each other in some crazy orgy with cum and poop flying everywhere, and it'd be all about making the other climax, as you move along and show your dominance through your endless endurance and clever use of sexual objects.

And gamers would get really obsessive about body, breast, genital physics, as well as the realism of bodily fluids.

 

[sechsterangriff]

I also think it's really stupid.

Also regarding cringeworthy sex and objectification. Believe it or not, dubious content like that exists in every other medium. If videogames is to mature as a medium then it also involves covering the full spectrum between quality and "garbage" content that caters to all segments of audiences. People thinking it can become this politically correct thing, are the ones actually holding videogames back as a medium.

 

[dity]

I don't even think it's as in depth, complex or societal as this though.

It's just that the sex scenes we do get are, on the whole, absolutely shit.

When you have sex in GTA5, the controller vibrates for every down thrust. I actually thought that was pretty cool.

 

[Demoskinos]

I'll just posit the question since so many people have brought it up as a pejorative. Whats wrong with just putting nudity/sex in for the titillation? Industry is big enough for all things to exist. I don't see why everyone's dander gets raised about this stuff.

 

[Xater]

1. That's only the US. In Europe no one bats an eye at nudity or sex.

2. There is a difference between that and sexism and objectification.

 

[SomTervo]

If games treated sex like it did violence...

your typical game might have as among the first thing you do, an intro to a story about how some guy slept with your significant other, and the first thing you pick up is a dildo, and very shortly, horny people of all types start rushing at you with their own dildos, and you start going to town on each other in some crazy orgy with cum and poop flying everywhere, and it'd be all about making the other climax, as you move along and show your dominance through your endless endurance and clever use of sexual objects.

And gamers would get really obsessive about body, breast, genital physics, as well as the realism of bodily fluids.

Hahahahaha. So true.

1. That's only the US. In Europe no one bats an eye at nudity or sex.

That's certainly not true. There are lots of cultures in Europe, some of which definitely aren't tolerant like that. In Britain, there would be uproar about a Call of Duty game with a full-frontal sex scene, for instance. Stuff like that still sometimes makes the news (less often as time goes on, though). Some countries are more conservative than others.

I can imagine people in France wouldn't blink an eye.

 

[Stike]

Fully agree: Video games are just another medium like movies/TV etc. Why can't there be mainstream video game porn? Would still be better than that game nobody dares to talk about (and the game was bad, even)

 

[Finalantagonist]

I'll just posit the question since so many people have brought it up as a pejorative. Whats wrong with just putting nudity/sex in for the titillation? Industry is big enough for all things to exist. I don't see why everyone's dander gets raised about this stuff.

Could it be some people are just uncomfortable with sex and expect other people to be as uncomfortable as them?

Lol what a concept, right?!

 

[V_Arnold]

If games treated sex like it did violence...

your typical game might have as among the first thing you do, an intro to a story about how some guy slept with your significant other, and the first thing you pick up is a dildo, and very shortly, horny people of all types start rushing at you with their own dildos, and you start going to town on each other in some crazy orgy with cum and poop flying everywhere, and it'd be all about making the other climax, as you move along and show your dominance through your endless endurance and clever use of sexual objects.

And gamers would get really obsessive about body, breast, genital physics, as well as the realism of bodily fluids.

Exactly.

And whenever someone who does not play video games gets a glimpse of a few minutes into , say, the campaign of Black Ops 2 or Tomb Raider or Last of Us, and they are shocked, like for real. And gamers then get defensive, MOOOOOM IT IS JUST A GAME, JEEZ. But sex!

Btw, I have a feeling that there are many visual novels with compelling stories and interesting plot twists that move way beyond the "lets sleep with 'em all", but we just do not care enough to find them, or they are not translated.

 

[Joeku]

I also think it's really stupid.

Also regarding cringeworthy sex and objectification. Believe it or not, dubious content like that exists in every other medium. If videogames is to mature as a medium then it also involves covering the full spectrum between quality and "garbage" content that caters to all segments of audiences. People thinking it can become this politically correct thing, are the ones actually holding videogames back as a medium.

There's no rule that games (or any medium) have to be shitty about something before they're good about that thing. It's just likely.

Games have been about obstacles and challenge (be it another player or the systems) since they began. That's a lot easier to correlate to violence than to sexuality.

Fully agree: Video games are just another medium like movies/TV etc. Why can't there be mainstream video game porn? Would still be better than that game nobody dares to talk about (and the game was bad, even)

There absolutely is video game porn. Plenty of it. It's just not sold in Walmart or on Steam, like other forms of porn not being in Walmart or on Netflix.

 

[Scrawnton]

Killer7 had what I thought was a tasteful sex scene. Didn't go overboard with it but it was graphic enough. Game had balls.

 

[nubbe]

Good thing EU has France, Germany and Italy

 

[fanboi]

GAF is the same as well, link to mutalated bodies? Ok. Link to sex? Banned.

 

[SmokedMeat]

This is an argument for television, not videogames.

It blows my mind that it's okay to show blood and gore on a show, but a naked breast is a no no.

 

[KJRS_1993]

I also find it amusing that the debate around sex usually revolves around female characters getting their kit off "Good luck getting below an M if you have a boob!" and nudity on male characters is rarely part of the discussion.

Are we all comfortable enough with nudity to be happy for Nathan Drake's big fuzzy todger flapping about on screen, or does this only apply to female characters?

"Good luck getting below an M if you have half a scrotum!"

You are wrong, plus it's a stupid argument either way.

Better to drop a post telling them they're wrong and stupid while providing absolutely zero argument yourself? That's going to go far.

 

[tuxfool]

It's not like most video game violence approaches anything based in reality, too. At least romance is becoming more commonplace in big games. That's a step forwards, even if handled sloppily by the likes of BioWare and Bethesda most of the time.

Yeah, but the expression and form of that violence is wildly varied and heavily iterated upon. Currently the best expressions of romance in mainstream games tend to be those that are non interactive. The few RPGs that have interactive elements ultimately fall down the "talk" or "give gifts" until the character is interested. There is little complexity to the way things are handled partially because there is also a greater focus in other areas, primarily in combat.

 

[SkeptiMism]

What a horrible first post to be honest (no offense). Provide some context. Some examples would've been really constructive to the thread.

Also, I'm curious as to where is this coming from? Is it because of seeing those dirty SJWs criticizing objectification in games? Or just about the DOAX3 thing? Or simply honestly annoyed at perceived hypocrisy (perhaps hoping violence was criticized more too)?

Anyway, yes I'd certainly like to see more criticism against mindless violence in games. But as others have pointed out, violence is so common because it's such an easy gameplay mechanic compared to anything else. Nothing wrong with that generally speaking either, not even with really gory violence in itself, but yes I'd like to see smaller focus on it.

That's just your opinion, man.

Replies like this really don't help your cause either. If you want to have a constructive discussion, dismissing posts in that style isn't good.

 

[Denton]

Because there isn't a single example of sex or nudity in games that isn't awful, childish cringeworthy shite.

You are wrong, plus it's a stupid argument either way.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I'll just posit the question since so many people have brought it up as a pejorative. Whats wrong with just putting nudity/sex in for the titillation? Industry is big enough for all things to exist. I don't see why everyone's dander gets raised about this stuff.

blame the way western society has developed with sex-shaming/religion etc. Heck even without religion I think softcore level titlation would be frowned upon at minimum if that's all a particular mainstream media (not porn section) contained.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

You are wrong, plus it's a stupid argument either way.

If you're going to say that, you should offer examples.

 

[SomTervo]

GAF is the same as well, link to mutalated bodies? Ok. Link to sex? Banned.

This is true.

Either both should be banned or neither.

Alternatively, either are OK with a NSFW warning. Unwarned extreme violence or nudity, ban.

If you're going to say that, you should offer examples.

I think you're wrong - and I think the Wolfenstein: The New Order

Spoiler

scene with BJ and Anna having sex

is an example of it being really well handled. It fits the context, it develops their relationship, it is physically realistic, it doesn't sexualise/objectify either of them (both fully clothed IIRC). A great scene.

 

[SomTervo]

sorry for DP

 

[LeBoef]

Seriously, what's wrong with you guys?

afair thats a non EU thing. afair conan showed that

us version: violence without boobs
german version: boobs without violence (nudity is totaly ok here)
uk version: boobs and violence

 

[Militaratus]

If games treated sex like it did violence...

your typical game might have as among the first thing you do, an intro to a story about how some guy slept with your significant other, and the first thing you pick up is a dildo, and very shortly, horny people of all types start rushing at you with their own dildos, and you start going to town on each other in some crazy orgy with cum and poop flying everywhere, and it'd be all about making the other climax, as you move along and show your dominance through your endless endurance and clever use of sexual objects.

And gamers would get really obsessive about body, breast, genital physics, as well as the realism of bodily fluids.

And then Jim Sterling' Squirty Play takes on a whole new meaning.

 

[WickedLaharl]

it's not me, it's you.

 

[SolidSnakex]

This is an argument for television, not videogames.

It blows my mind that it's okay to show blood and gore on a show, but a naked breast is a no no.

I don't think you can really show gore on network TV. I know the part in Bloodsport where Chong Li breaks that guys knee is edited out in the network TV broadcasts.

 

[Deceitful-Fox]

Blame the puritans. No seriously, it's their fault.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

Of course we should. But right now, the sex and nudity in games is basically the equivalent of "all the women in the locker room are naked, and this important conversation is happening there for some reason" scenes in a movie.

Context is everything. If sex and nudity were used in a way to advance the story than it's fine. But nudity for nudity's sake is going too far into fan service territory.

 

[Haunted]

I'm from Europe, so I'm pretty concerned about US puritanism having a bad influence on what's supposed to be a progressive, global medium.

That said, there's a huge problem with mysoginy and sexism at pretty much all levels of the gaming industry today, and we (everyone involved and interested) needs to work harder to counteract that shit. If that means we need to cut down on the sex in AAA games for a while while the industry finds its voice in that regard... maybe I'm ok with that.

I am surprised fallout 4 doesn't really have any sexual stuff in the game

Fallout 4 is very timid in that regard, I don't even know why the ladykiller/black widow perk is still in the game.

 

[Joeku]

Yeah, but the expression and form of that violence is wildly varied and heavily iterated upon. Currently the best expressions of romance in mainstream games tend to be those that are non interactive. The few RPGs that have interactive elements ultimately fall down the "talk" or "give gifts" until the character is interested. There is little complexity to the way things are handled partially because there is also a greater focus in other areas, primarily in combat.

Yeah, that's why I called out BioWare. Again, no real-life medieval combat engagement has ever gone the way a video game fight has either. Nor gunfight. You can probably get shot in the foot dozens of time until it's mush, but that doesn't mean you are now dead because you took enough shots for your HP to reach 0. You'll slowly bleed out. Games are bad at recreating real-life violence, and the more realistic they are, the more horrifying they are too.

Like, I'd love for a small game (cuz it would never be an AAA one) to be a shooter that has people more realistically react to getting shot, based on where in the body they were hit, and the way they would die (or not, depending on where they were hit). It would be a horrifying wake-up call to all this. Spec Ops: The Line toed into the mental aspect of combat in a great way, but couldn't get into the physical as much as I would have liked.

 

[nubbe]

Fallout 4 is so timid and adamant to not give these options, I don't even know why the ladykiller/black widow perk is still in the game.

well, you can fuck all your companions

 

[TheDanger]

It was really weird to me that the first walking dead season was rated tv14, this has an 18 rating where I live, I mean you can show ripping itestines out and smearing them over each other, but you can't say fuck or show boobs? what the fuck, for example american pie has a 12 rating here while it is rated r in the us. It's ridiculous.

 

[Diablos]

The same could be said of movies and television shows.

In the US at least, our censorship laws are ass backwards IMO. Not that I advocate for hardcore porn on prime time television, but some brief nudity to me is far less offensive than some of the violence, blood and gore that the networks will show without hesitation between 8-10PM.

Even cable is weird. Look at The Walking Dead. Stabs to the temple, decapitations, guts pouring out of bodies galore -- but not one use of the word "fuck", not one even subtle glimpse of nudity. It's makes no sense whatsoever.

The same could be said for video games. I haven't played it yet but is there any nudity in GTA5? I would think given the realism and heightened level of violence and overall controversy that surely there's a topless strip club or something, somehwere.

If there's not it just goes to show you the same double standard is just as prevalent in video games. It's not that I advocate for this to be in the game, rather demonstrate that it's extremely weird how some kind of immoral and unethical behavior (torture, murder) is permissible but something just as offensive but in a different manor (sexual) is not.