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Japanese girl band's Nazi-esque outfits draw fire
- Thread starter fek
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First, there is no evidence Jynx was based on ganguro and the Pokemon Company has never stated that Jynx was based on ganguro.
Second, does it matter what Jynx might have been based on? Everybody still saw her as looking like a racist stereotype. The Holiday Hi-Jynx anime episode had her as Pokemon's stand-in for Zwarte Piett.
Its a horrible design sure. Im just stating what I think was the obvious intent. Based on what the creators said and context of the times.
You're being incredibly obtuse over something which has been settled almost two decades ago when they changed Jynx's skin color from black to purple because, again, Jynx's design resembles blackface, no matter how you try to frame it.
By the by, i'm still waiting on that substantial source for "the creator's said it was ganguro", not that authorial intent erases the resemblance.
It's not the "obvious intent". Nobody knows what the hell Jynx was supposed to be. All we know is what she ended up looking like.
I don't think you understand what a blackface caricature looks like.
So I'm not the only one who thought of that game after seeing anime girl Hitler.
How does that armband even stay on its place? It doesn't make any sense at all.
It was changed because the joke was completely lost and understandably construed as probelematic. If it was deliberate it would have been straight up removed. You can check any Japanese site on the topic of what the creators said. You seem to be capable of that.
Perhaps you could oblige with examples while you are at it.
Nobody outside Japan...
torre_avenue
Banned
With the power of titties, anything is possible!
How about you link us to one?
Gentleman Jack
Member
Unless there was a pedagogical revolution in the last ten or so years there, they don't really learn much about the war. They kinda get the cliff notes version of the war, heavily sanitized in grade school, with most of the focus on how now they are a nation of peace who will never forget the horrors of fire/nuclear bombing caused by an aggressive past. The details are left up to the individual to discover. Most of the adults I met in Japan knew little to nothing about the war, seeking out the details in college if they were curious at most.
This is hardly a Japanese phenomenon, I know, but 'the war' is a big subject and it's on the traditions of the society that people know as much as they do. There isn't anywhere near the same history of transparency with a shameful past in Japan as there is in, say, Germany.
wiki.ポケモン.com/wiki/%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A5%E3%83%A9
There's no actual interview though. Either its too long ago or people are making shit up.
TickleMeElbow
Member
Uh, I'm pretty sure it started with people trying to mimic Amuro Namie because she was super popular. The "kogyaru" style was born (tanning + light brown hair), but then a subset took it to the extreme and ended up looking ridiculous lol. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the Western sense of "blackface".
If there's no citation, yeah, it's probably people making shit up.
Bunch of other pokemon sites say the same thing. Its stated as a fact, there just isnt a link to a 20 year old article. What are you clinging to? Certainly not sources, context and such.
I guess we're never going to see any examples of Jynx-like depictions black women from you. Its a huge deal in Japan, right? You must have loads of examples.
This was a big controversy at the time. Any statement from Gamefreak would have been pretty publicized. So yes, I would expect some evidence to still exist if it actually happened.
I noticed you're specifying black women, even though the blackface stereotype is about race and not gender. Do you think Mr. Popo and Jynx aren't cut from the same cloth visually?
lightskintwin
Banned
You act as if American media hasn't heavily influenced Japan for better and for worse.
Perhaps it was because some poster claimed she looked nothing like Ganguro but was a stereotype of blackwomen, in spite of blackwomen not really being stereotyped in Japanese media(unlike men). I think...but im waiting for confirmation. Dark skin, blond hair, dress...should be easy.
Thats where the stereotypes of black men come from and its affect is not too hard to find.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Well, except for the Nazi thing. Your unlikely to see any positive depictions of big-boobed Nazi ladies outside of a Rob Zombie movie.
Feel the Swift
Member
I think the Nazi uniforms are garbage. I can't believe people like them and we have people playing dress up in them. And I find it hard to separate them from the atrocities the people who wore them committed.
lightskintwin
Banned
Ok, but you keep separating Black men from Black women for some reason.
The poster said it was a huge problem as evidence that it was malicious and not a reference to a popular fashion trend. If its a huge deal and bigger than ganguro than i'd expect there to be tons of stereotypical depictions of black woman with blond hair being seductive in Japanese media. Just like there are stereotypes of men. Otherwise im unconvinced.
The poster said there was a problem with racist stereotypes of black people. Specifically, the racist caricature of coal black skin and big red lips.
If you think it's obvious Jynx is supposed to be Ganguro, why did her anime focus episode have her as Santa's helper, akin to the real world Zwarte Piett? Why didn't Gamefreak tell the people criticizing Jynx that she's based on Ganguro?
lightskintwin
Banned
Well I think it's a combination of blackface presence within the country, and the rise of contemporary R&B/Hip hop culture impact worldwide.
1. Blackface is not exclusive to one's gender. I never said anything in regards to women or men in regards to this matter.
2. If that "source" was substantial, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The controversy surrounding Jynx due to Carole Weatherford's (excellent) article back in the day was a big deal, so an official statement from Nintendo, Game Freak, etc. in regards to Jynx and her insipration/intent would be relatively easy to find. We have documents detailing the Tear Ring Saga legal debacle in the form of court documents, among other, less well-known controversies involving Nintendo properties. We don't have an official source for this claim you have continued to propose that ignores the fact that...
3. Blackface in Japan has been a problem for Japan for a long time. Jazz concerts in the mid 30s. Comedians like Yozo Hayashi and Kenichi Enomoto would perform in blackface. King Kong Vs. Godzilla, One Piece, Dragon Ball/Z. Mega Man Powered Up. Momoiro Clover Z. All of these depictions and more (these were just the ones that came to mind in terms of media depictions, not even getting into how a new release of Little Black Sambo was a best-seller in Japan or the sale of golliwogs) utilize the same anti-black imagery that is blackface which itself is a part of a larger problem with how Japan has treated black people (or even half-black/half-Japanese people dubbed "hafu", namely in regards to the treatment of their citizenship).
Please stop pretending like Jynx is some isolated incident or that some unsubstantiated source somehow erases what she represents.
Galactic Specter
Member
lightskintwin
Banned
1. Blackface is not exclusive to one's gender. I never said anything in regards to women or men in regards to this matter.
2. If that "source" was substantial, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The controversy surrounding Jynx due to Carole Weatherford's (excellent) article back in the day was a big deal, so an official statement from Nintendo, Game Freak, etc. in regards to Jynx and her insipration/intent would be relatively easy to find. We have documents detailing the Tear Ring Saga legal debacle in the form of court documents, among other, less well-known controversies involving Nintendo properties. We don't have an official source for this claim you have continued to propose that ignores the fact that...
3. Blackface in Japan has been a problem for Japan for a long time. Jazz concerts in the mid 30s. Comedians like Yozo Hayashi and Kenichi Enomoto would perform in blackface. King Kong Vs. Godzilla, One Piece, Dragon Ball/Z. Mega Man Powered Up. Momoiro Clover Z. All of these depictions and more (these were just the ones that came to mind in terms of media depictions, not even getting into how a new release of Little Black Sambo was a best-seller in Japan or the sale of golliwogs) utilize the same anti-black imagery that is blackface which itself is a part of a larger problem with how Japan has treated black people (or even half-black/half-Japanese people dubbed "hafu", namely in regards to the treatment of their citizenship).
Please stop pretending like Jynx is some isolated incident or that some unsubstantiated source somehow erases what she represents.
Just to add context to Blackface's history with Japan. In Xuexian Lin's academic study of "The Hip Hop impact on Japanese youth culture" with special reference to the ganguro, she notes that
Seems like a bit of a reach. Ive been trying to establish the whole stereotype business(to no avail) and here we go with an even more obscure reference as proof over the incredibly obvious one.
Did you maybe confuse gyaru and ganguro?
Any expert here can explain how Ganguro is imitating black culture? Outside of the tan, nothing from the hair, makeup, clothes, speech evoke black culture to me.
Probably, I am very old. The point still stands however. Pokemon Red released in 1996 after a lengthy development. It strains credulity to think that Jynx's design owed more to the Ganguro style, which was still relatively new, than it did to a history of widespread and influential racist iconography.
I love Pokemon, but Jynx is straight-up blackface.
Messofanego
Banned
Halloween makes every thread go into blackface.
lightskintwin
Banned
Perhaps you could read the Academic study I linked to which along with using other research and studies with references "the research project relied on the direct input and feedback from some young Japanese students about their understanding of ganguro. Sixty-six participants from two Japanese universities involved in this research project were given a questionnaire covering the most relevant questions regarding the issues under investigation. In addition, this research project involved several organized discussions among some African American students about their views and attitudes toward ganguro girls. The research findings provide sufficient evidence in support of the assumptions."
Seductivpancakes
Member
The cap straight up has a symbol that is only associated with the Nazi. It's missing the swastika, but the eagle clutching the wreath is unmistakable.
Yea I realize it's not a very symbol that is easily identifiable with Nazis like the swastika or the skull head, which is why I think it was not done on purpose.
Yea I realize it's not a very symbol that is easily identifiable with Nazis like the swastika or the skull head, which is why I think it was not done on purpose.
Im pretty tired of arguing about this. Perhaps you're right. Its just not my perspective and I think most Japanese would agree with me here.
What do people think about the Suica penguin?
Interesting read. Seems like 50/50 with regards to intention.
There are plenty of people who aren't ganguro and are actually imitating black culture with cornrows, weaves, just lifting the fashion wholesale. The Ganguro connection seems incredibly shallow.
Are you this tolerant when black youth adopt Asian fashion?
lightskintwin
Banned
Why is it shallow? The manifestation of "blackface" exists in all different forms. It's not like Elvis one day came up with the idea to gyrate his hips like that.
It looks like a cute Penguin who'll help me get from A to B.
Edited. The Suica penguin isn't vaguely close to the examples I posted earlier. Surely you can see that?
BigJonsson
Member
If only we could send all the banned users in this thread to a Holocaust museum, maybe they'd understand why people get very concerned when they see things that resemble Nazi symbols
I have never heard of it until this thread.
What do people think about the Suica penguin?
It's kinda cute? It certainly doesn't look like a racist caricature if that's what you're implying.
lightskintwin
Banned
So we're going with false equivalencies now?
Zoe
Member
This. The light makeup and bleached hair are a pretty important parts of ganguro.
They were broken so Ive only just seen them now. The first one looks like an eel.
or slime
Tintin...
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