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[TheYanger]

Go ahead some of us prefer it before, Nor was I stating that I think D2 or D3 even POE skilltree is the best. I just like What D2 did for options and viability. Short of this season I'm not a fan of eventually one meta builds on certain classes needed to progress.

What's laughable is you think some of us enjoy D3 now or should in that respect. I would also hope that D3 mechanics are much better than a game that came more towards the beginning of the last decade vs one that came out in the last 3 years that showed blizzard only marginally got what the game was about and how to evolve it.

How about the D3 mechanics are better than every other game in the genre, not just D2? But when you bring up D2 that's what I'm gonna compare it to (you did it, not me).

D2 didn't have 'options and viability' like you think, every game with builds has best builds, D2 was just a very easy game, that's the reason more builds were 'viable'. Imagine if the endgame in D3 was just doing the storyline on fucking Hell difficulty. Or Master under the new system. That's what D2 was like. Of course everything is viable then.

Path of Exile? The only reason it's not 'solved' constantly is because it's so convoluted and they patch often enough that it can't get stagnant. That's not great design either though, it just means that it's difficult to find the best builds due to obfuscation.

D3 has LOTS of 'viable' builds, you only have to go to specific ones if you're pushing like world top levels, and they're still different for solo/group/farming/etc. The harder you make the content, the more an optimal build is required. Not in D3, in any game. The fact that you think these other games don't encourage optimal builds has nothing to do with the skill systems, and everything to do with the lack of difficulty forcing you into them. For most people PoE is about doing hardcore leagues over and over and starting over constantly. In D3 it's more about pushing yourself at the highest end, not the early parts of the game.

 

[Lernaean]

Considering the game is alive and well, "suicide" is a bit of a stretch.

Alive and a lot better than before actually. RMAH really hurt the game.

 

[Nokterian]

Did he do RoS? Because D3 is great now, and is fantastic on consoles.

No Josh Mosqueira is game director for diablo now he and his team reworked whole diablo to what it is today.

 

[JMY86]

Good riddance. Diablo III got immeasurably better when he left the project.

 

[Arkeband]

It's going to have real money attached to it if you can do it, period. That's why they went for the AH in the first place. D2jsp had already taken over Diablo 2, and with the way gaming and the internet are now there is ZERO chance that D3 wouldn't have immediately been a money economy as well. I mean even long before with D2, like early/mid 2000s, I was selling my accounts off every time I quit for a while on ebay. Just because YOU would not buy or sell for real money, doesn't mean that everyone else doing it doesn't affect you and your ability to trade. Everything has a value.

The value of significantly better items, which are harder to get as well, in D3 is miles beyond D2. D2 was a piss easy game to begin with, D3 has scaling difficulty that goes to basically infinity, and it rewards you for going higher up that ladder.

This might sound crazy, but not every player used 3rd party trading sites for D2.

There has to exist a middleman that allows easier trading than joining trade games randomly, and the auction house which puts every item at your fingertips.

I still think there's value in a lot of what they threw away with D2, including semi-permanent builds and a hard cap on stats. There is probably a way to re-incorporate some of that into D4 if they ever attempt it, while keeping the gameplay fresh for today's stereotypical ADHD gamer market.

 

[Lernaean]

No Josh Mosqueira is game director for diablo now he and his team reworked whole diablo to what it is today.

And hopefully they'll work on D4 too cause they did a great job, but no matter how good they turned it, it still is inherently flawed.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Not a GAF approved person.

 

[Nokterian]

And hopefully they'll work on D4 too cause they did a great job, but no matter how good they turned it, it still is inherently flawed.

Eh no? Vanilla Diablo 3 was flawed RoS is better in everyway those who never played adventure mode shall not now how this game is today.

 

[TheYanger]

This might sound crazy, but not every player used 3rd party trading sites for D2.

There has to exist a middleman that allows easier trading than joining trade games randomly, and the auction house which puts every item at your fingertips.

I still think there's value in a lot of what they threw away with D2, including semi-permanent builds and a hard cap on stats. There is probably a way to re-incorporate some of that into D4 if they ever attempt it, while keeping the gameplay fresh for today's stereotypical ADHD gamer market.

I realize not everyone uses third party site,s what I'm saying is those sites influence the economy of the game whether you use them or not, and that's why the auction house was put in. It sounds like you agree with me.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Eh. Won't miss him, but I won't spit vitriol like some others.

Now just need Metzen to go and Blizzard's third golden age can finally truly begin

 

[a harpy]

Eh no? Vanilla Diablo 3 was flawed RoS is better in everyway those who never played adventure mode shall not now how this game is today.

No, he's right. The game has deep flaws. It's in a fine place but it really would have been a whole lot better if the RoS team worked on the game from the beginning.

 

[Lernaean]

Eh no? Vanilla Diablo 3 was flawed RoS is better in everyway those who never played adventure mode shall not now how this game is today.

Don't get me wrong. I love the game rn. I just believe that if they start from a clean slate, they will create a much better game.
For example ActV was excellent, i wish all acts were that interesting, and no matter what, RoS as it is rn, carries some baggage from vanilla.

 

[Nokterian]

No, he's right. The game has deep flaws. It's in a fine place but it really would have been a whole lot better if the RoS team worked on the game from the beginning.

He is not right and clearly you don't know the whole story on how the team had turned it around with diablo 3 to RoS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWYEWRrFgUY

Don't get me wrong. I love the game rn. I just believe that if they start from a clean slate, they will create a much better game.
For example ActV was excellent, i wish all acts were that interesting, and no matter what, RoS as it is rn, carries some baggage from vanilla.

I never play diablo because of the story i play for loot and replayability and that wasn't there in Vanilla at all in RoS there is replayability because Adventure Mode is the bread and butter of the whole game,got a huge open world from all acts,rifts,greater rifts and much much more.

 

[ExVicis]

Edit: Wrong thread lol. He will be missed for his insults.

 

[Arkeband]

He is not right and clearly you don't know the whole story on how the team had turned it around with diablo 3 to RoS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWYEWRrFgUY

A game being shit and then not being shit does not elevate it to some level where it cannot be criticized.

Removing the AH and moving to a gameplay model where players chase infinity damage through unrestricted, increasing tiers of difficulty isn't the perfect solution to a stagnated failure of a game, but it's one that worked. As it stood, they certainly couldn't have made it any worse.

 

[Nokterian]

A game being shit and then not being shit does not elevate it to some level where it cannot be criticized.

Removing the AH and moving to a gameplay model where players chase infinity damage through unrestricted, increasing tiers of difficulty isn't the perfect solution to a stagnated failure of a game, but it's one that worked. As it stood, they certainly couldn't have made it any worse.

This post doesn't make any sense because AH is so important? I mean i kill demons to get loot not sit in a fucking facebook game to get loot sitting idle to see if i want it that would work to that isn't an ARPG you kill monsters to get loot to get stronger if you want to something in a auction house i suggest to something on wall street if that's your thing.

 

[Anoregon]

This post doesn't make any sense because AH is so important? I mean i kill demons to get loot not sit in a fucking facebook game to get loot sitting idle to see if i want it that would work to that isn't an ARPG you kill monsters to get loot to get stronger if you want to something in a auction house i suggest to something on wall street if that's your thing.

Nok, I think there's a pretty big misunderstanding between you and the other posters regarding this issue.

They are stating that RoS IS much better than vanilla, but a theoretical Diablo game that was made from scratch by the folks who made RoS would be even better. Because even though they did such a good job improving upon Vanilla, there are still fundamental, structural aspects of the game that they have to work with that are not optimal.

You guys have more or less the same point.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I feel his work on vanilla D3 would be better received in the mobile gaming sector.

I was not a fan.

 

[FrontalMonk]

I mean I was expecting a "fuck that loser" or three, but hey. If Jay Wilson was responsible for the combat in D3 feeling as great as it did, then awesome. I wish him well in all he does, regardless. Because that's what you do when a fellow human being switches career paths.

 

[Lernaean]

Nok, I think there's a pretty big misunderstanding between you and the other posters regarding this issue.

They are stating that RoS IS much better than vanilla, but a theoretical Diablo game that was made from scratch by the folks who made RoS would be even better. Because even though they did such a good job improving upon Vanilla, there are still fundamental, structural aspects of the game that they have to work with that are not optimal.

You guys have more or less the same point.

Thank you!

 

[Aureon]

You guys act like the only thing he did was the AH. Vanilla Diablo 3 gameplay was damn good, and is still the basis for the improved state of the game today.

Yes, he made some horrific mistakes but eh, kinda being dicks in here.

Fucking up item acquisition so throughly in a game that mostly revolves around item acquisition is pretty bad.
Core gameplay (Combat) was, is, and in all likeness, will be good in D3. But combat sure as hell wasn't what made D2 such a legend in the first place.
Diablo always was a RPG first and foremost, and fucking up the RPG side so throughly cannot be understated.

 

[Ricerocket]

Was just thinking how bad the mechanics of D3 were in vanilla, it is fucking insane how badly made it was. The meta of the game revolved around paying to get a waypoint to a certain act 4 WP to farm a single yellow mob or farm goblins on a % chance per instance over and over with loot being probably .1% that is actually an upgrade.

Also in D3, elites >>>> lore bosses. Want to know how Kripp got big on his D3 HC completion?? Farming goblins for months, running past everything to the boss in HC.

 

[Zackat]

Was just thinking how bad the mechanics of D3 were in vanilla, it is fucking insane how badly made it was. The meta of the game revolved around paying to get a waypoint to a certain act 4 WP to farm a single yellow mob or farm goblins on a % chance per instance over and over with loot being probably .1% that is actually an upgrade.

Also in D3, elites >>>> lore bosses. Want to know how Kripp got big on his D3 HC completion?? Farming goblins for months, running past everything to the boss in HC.

I spent so much time farming goblins. Wtf was I doing with my life.

 

[AESplusF]

Bye.

 

[SOR5]

Cya

 

[LCGeek]

How about the D3 mechanics are better than every other game in the genre, not just D2? But when you bring up D2 that's what I'm gonna compare it to (you did it, not me).

Not in terms of rpgs overall just arpgs which is niche of niche which doesn't really count to me. Sorry I go on the whole for the most part, maybe not you but that's me.

D2 didn't have 'options and viability' like you think, every game with builds has best builds, D2 was just a very easy game, that's the reason more builds were 'viable'. Imagine if the endgame in D3 was just doing the storyline on fucking Hell difficulty. Or Master under the new system. That's what D2 was like. Of course everything is viable then.

People have ad-nauseum debated this even here. Outside of scaling issues I've had more variety in D2. Its' a bit unfair to compare D2 to a game with Torment X or Gr100+ but at the same time facts are facts. Rather D3 enjoy the benefits of a scaling system and there is nothing like in 2 making our argument quite pointless.

D3 has LOTS of 'viable' builds, you only have to go to specific ones if you're pushing like world top levels, and they're still different for solo/group/farming/etc. The harder you make the content, the more an optimal build is required. Not in D3, in any game. The fact that you think these other games don't encourage optimal builds has nothing to do with the skill systems, and everything to do with the lack of difficulty forcing you into them. For most people PoE is about doing hardcore leagues over and over and starting over constantly. In D3 it's more about pushing yourself at the highest end, not the early parts of the game.

Really I'm quite aware of why I use something different for farming and pushing with groups or solo be it my gear or gems. For instance what works in solo or 2 player groups for pushing grs will not work so easily with 3 and especially 4. I actually like the fact this season you can have far more viable builds with the wiz than any other time I can recall despite the fact I liked the broke ass crictical mass, hydra, and firebirds before blizzard nerfed cause people like us figure this stuff out.


I play these games I don't need a lesson how they work or what I feel about them.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I feel sorry for him ending up as such a major scapegoat and the "fuck this loser" remark wasn't particularly unjustified to me, although it's of course completely inappropriate to do that publicly which he didn't think was the case.

There was a lot wrong with Diablo 3 vanilla, but also a hell lot right. The basic gameplay was excellent and it's because of that that the game ended up getting better and better over time when everything else was adjusted accordingly. Itemization and difficulty scaling etc. certainly was bad in vanilla and I imagine he's largely to blame for that. At least all that was fixable and even while he was still at helms, good updates kept coming.

The by far worst though was the fricking writing in Diablo 3 and it's that element that you cannot overhaul in hindsight and will forever remain a blight on the title. Thanks Metzen and thanks for doing the same to Starcraft 2. The best designed single player RTS campaign coupled with some of the worst writing. Oh god what could've been if the writing was actually great, I'd replay those campaigns forever.

 

[TheYanger]

Not in terms of rpgs overall just arpgs which is niche of niche which doesn't really count to me. Sorry I go on the whole for the most part, maybe not you but that's me.

So, you're now saying D3 is weak compared to games not in its own genre? Sorry but that's a ridiculous argument. I don't want Diablo 3 to be Dark souls, that's what Dark souls is for. I'm curious what games you think have more versatile and interesting skill systems in general, though.

People have ad-nauseum debated this even here. Outside of scaling issues I've had more variety in D2. Its' a bit unfair to compare D2 to a game with Torment X or Gr100+ but at the same time facts are facts. Rather D3 enjoy the benefits of a scaling system and there is nothing like in 2 making our argument quite pointless.

So, you're saying D2 can't be compared because it doesn't have any challenge, IE: you agree with me, then you go on to say you had more variety in D2 because the game didn't force you to be good. Srory, bullshit argument again. You can have VASTLY more interesting builds in D3, if you choose not to go past GR like 70 or something you can basically play any fucking build you want, and in that sense it's got infinitely more diversity than D2 did. There were lots of shitty builds and shitty skills in D2, and unless you wanted to fumble around with your mousewheel or F keys a lot you were pretty limited in how many you could effectively use at a time. I would say a typical D2 build consisted of a buffo r two, a utility spell, and a single attack you spam. IE Frozen Orb, Teleport, energy armor, static field. Sick build. (Obviously once synergies were added this specific build might not be shit, but synergies just made skill point spending more interesting and buffed bad skills, it didn't do anything for actual build complexity).

Really I'm quite aware of why I use something different for farming and pushing with groups or solo be it my gear or gems. For instance what works in solo or 2 player groups for pushing grs will not work so easily with 3 and especially 4. I actually like the fact this season you can have far more viable builds with the wiz than any other time I can recall despite the fact I liked the broke ass crictical mass, hydra, and firebirds before blizzard nerfed cause people like us figure this stuff out.


I play these games I don't need a lesson how they work or what I feel about them.

So, you agree that there is diversity, perhaps not asm much as there could be due to how the stats work in the base game, but that's more item diversity as an issue.

If you 'don't need a lesson' then don't post shit that is easily refuted. If it is, I'm going to refute it. That's like telling me not to post on a forum, if you don't want to read responses to what you write, don't write it.

 

[Nordicus]

Some of the outstanding issues with the game are that PVP is still a fucking joke, their current game design is a speeding train, hurtling toward trillions of damage per second, which is completely incompatible with PVP without creating a parallel game experience. They weren't interested in that, so the "Brawler" sits in town, waiting for someone simple enough to actually click on him by accident.

I've only played D3 to the latter half of Act 1 (only got it recently), and I completely forgot how crazy the damage inflation gets later. Even the thought of PvP in those conditions is insane

 

[TheYanger]

I've only played D3 to the latter half of Act 1 (only got it recently), and I completely forgot how crazy the damage inflation gets later. Even the thought of PvP in those conditions is insane

The way stats scale are the primary failure of D3 that still exists due to necessity, sadly.

 

[TatteredHat]

Guy was pretty much gone already after the job he did on D3 anyway, but nice for him to go do something he's passionate about.

I don't think Metzen needs to leave, but he definitely needs to let go of the reins and allow some new writing talent to enter the company, because he's been on a downward trend since forever now.

 

[Rymuth]

I really miss the Jay Wilson version of this video - sadly, it was removed.

"Let them know that only I, Jay Wilson, know what is fun. Oh and one more thing, fuck those losers"

 

[rpg_fan]

Good riddance. Throw in an obligatory "fuck that loser", as well.

 

[Firemind]

The skill mechanics in D3 are unequivocally better than D2 though. The stat design in the base game crippled the gear design, and still is only serviceable due to everything in RoS working around it, but at the end of the day when you act like D3 somehow was worse than D2 in the basic gameplay department, or that it was dumbed down for consoles, it's laughable as fuck. The console versions are fine, but the game wouldn't be so markedly different between consoles and pc if it had been designed with them in mind.

lolno

They STILL can't get Teleport to work properly.

And for a game that came out more than a decade later, it lacks some of the advanced mechanics D2 had like elemental types actually mattering, attack rating, recovery speed or corpses that can be used. WD is a poor man's Necromancer.

D3 is pretty to look at I'll give them that.

 

[la_briola]

Good.

 

[Sniffynose]

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out...

 

[TheYanger]

lolno

They STILL can't get Teleport to work properly.

And for a game that came out more than a decade later, it lacks some of the advanced mechanics D2 had like elemental types actually mattering, attack rating, recovery speed or corpses that can be used. WD is a poor man's Necromancer.

D3 is pretty to look at I'll give them that.

"Elemental types mattering" basically only means "Hey, you have to switcht o your one shittier skill against this one mob because it RNG is immune to fire"

Attack rating and recovery speed are similar, all of these stats 'mattering' actually just means it feels fucking awful not to have them. Pretty solid design. It's fun not to be able to hit enemies without attack rating, or to get stunlocked without X recovery speed.

Not sure what the WD comment is even supposed to mean. Necromancers were the most boring D2 class and would be the most boring D3 class if they existed, as well as melting computers just like in D2.

Meanwhile, D2 has such awesome problems as: 2 active skills at once. 20 point talent systems meaning that you effectively only get a couple skills at all, besides one point wonders. lack of power in items, leaving you with only a few things that actually matter (the whole game basically devolves into +skill items, speaking of...) Charms, the stupidest god damn thing in the world. Immunities, recovery speed, synergies, all designed just to make you feel less powerful. Useless gems and runewords for most of the life of the game. Ethereal items, it's like if Ancient Items were actually a 5% chance to get a WORSE item most of the time, dope.

 

[LCGeek]

So, you're now saying D3 is weak compared to games not in its own genre? Sorry but that's a ridiculous argument. I don't want Diablo 3 to be Dark souls, that's what Dark souls is for. I'm curious what games you think have more versatile and interesting skill systems in general, though.

I'm saying as RPG and all the rpgs I've ever played virtual or real it's not that great. Sorry it offends stop asking me to call it good when it was crap for most of it existence.

So, you're saying D2 can't be compared because it doesn't have any challenge, IE: you agree with me, then you go on to say you had more variety in D2 because the game didn't force you to be good. Srory, bullshit argument again. You can have VASTLY more interesting builds in D3, if you choose not to go past GR like 70 or something you can basically play any fucking build you want, and in that sense it's got infinitely more diversity than D2 did. There were lots of shitty builds and shitty skills in D2, and unless you wanted to fumble around with your mousewheel or F keys a lot you were pretty limited in how many you could effectively use at a time. I would say a typical D2 build consisted of a buffo r two, a utility spell, and a single attack you spam. IE Frozen Orb, Teleport, energy armor, static field. Sick build. (Obviously once synergies were added this specific build might not be shit, but synergies just made skill point spending more interesting and buffed bad skills, it didn't do anything for actual build complexity).

It's an apples to oranges debate and you know why but keep rambling on with a wall that doesn't care. I feel D2 did it better if it upsets you dead serious go see a shrink.

So, you agree that there is diversity, perhaps not asm much as there could be due to how the stats work in the base game, but that's more item diversity as an issue.

If you 'don't need a lesson' then don't post shit that is easily refuted. If it is, I'm going to refute it. That's like telling me not to post on a forum, if you don't want to read responses to what you write, don't write it.

There always diversity, I said not is much, when did I say absolutely none as your trying to paint my argument? As for not telling you to post I just said don't give me your talking points on tired argument when you're better than that. Also GR70 and below is a joke once you have gear and gems worth a damn. Outside of speed farming souls or caldesanns what a waste of time.

There are plenty of reasons I will play D3 more than D2 which isn't even my favorite diablo as that is one. Engine issues the games never being kept up with the times is the only reason I don't play them that much. D3 will own D2/D1 if you're start talking about engine desires but the mechanics no brevik said as much.

 

[LiK]

The internet never forgets, lol

but seriously, D3 was a lot of fun so i wish him well.

 

[Holundrian]

I wish him well, while I don't like a lot of things about D3 I respect how good moment to moment combat felt even in vanilla.

Still remember the horror of certain champion affixes combined together.
Any salt I have is more with media not telling us about the inferno problems and balance problems on loot in a goddamn loot game.
9/10 and 10/10, srsly what a joke.

Here x hours is absolutely enough to judge a game blablabla. I don't need to finish a game to judge it.... urgh...

 

[MaxLevel]

It is doubtful Jay's influence was a determining factor for vanilla Diablo 3's shortcomings. The game was made collectively by a team. It was also solid enough so that it could be fixed by removing the auction house and tuning drop rates.

Dropping the f-bomb once in a semi private context in a situation where the whole team apparently was under a lot of stress also seems human to me.

The guy gets way to much blame in my opinion.

 

[SirNinja]

I'm leaving to pursue my original passion, writing

I don't usually say "You're fucking kidding me" out loud when I read things on the internet.

Usually.

I eagerly await his upcoming novel wherein the antagonist does nothing except vainly taunt the protagonist with some variation of "You may have gotten past _________, but you'll never, ever get past ____________!!!" 68 times.

 

[Yoshichan]

Take care buddy, your name was in every three posts of mine during an entire generation of gaming.

 

[TheYanger]

I don't usually say "You're fucking kidding me" out loud when I read things on the internet.

Usually.

I eagerly await his upcoming novel wherein the antagonist does nothing except vainly taunt the protagonist with some variation of "You may have gotten past _________, but you'll never, ever get past ____________!!!" 68 times.

Til people think game directors are the ones that wrote their games

 

[Berordn]

Til people think game directors are the ones that wrote their games

I kind of wonder if he had any input, but yeah. We have Metzen to thank for Azmodan in D3.

 

[SirNinja]

Til people think game directors are the ones that wrote their games

TIL there are people out there who don't think directors have a say in what writing makes it into a production.

 

[CharminUltra]

And nothing of value was lost.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I kind of wonder if he had any input, but yeah. We have Metzen to thank for Azmodan in D3.

I'm reasonably sure that Metzen's body of work is viewed as a war crime in several countries.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Well.. here's hoping for better things for Diablo 4

 

[Pellegri Testament]

TIL there are people out there who don't think directors have a say in what writing makes it into a production.

I'm sure he actually had very little choice in the matter considering Metzen is their go to writer when it comes to their games. If Blizz says Metzen will be deployed, whoever is directing better accept it.