Luminoth-4545
Member
Made some adjustments. In the last few months we have gotten the lifetime total for PSP and PS2, now all we need is PS Vita official LTD.
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YeulEmeralda
Member
If he has knowledge that Sony lied to shareholders he should get in touch with the SEC.
Icymanipulator
Member
I can see how you’d reach this conclusion, but I think it’s wrong. Switch brought back handhelds as a platform in a major way. They clearly have no problem pushing it. Combined with internet and social media, rabid fan base, and more available buyers, in addition, more parts of the globe being able to afford luxury items like a game console, there’s no way PS2s success isn’t way more impressive. They had less to work with on so many levels but they still achieved an absolutely gargantuan amount of sales. It defined in an era in a way that’s just not possible anymore.
UltimaKilo
Gold Member
There was just so much less competition. There’s a whole generation that mostly plays in their phones/tablets/laptops. You now also have streaming, PC resurgence not seen since the late 90s. However, I think Switch is the exception here to the dying dedicated console market, because, as you stated, the portability, Nintendo’s popular IPs and exceptional quality of software.
Mozza
Member
It's amazing Jim and Sony are telling us how many consoles a machine released in 2000 has actually sold, wonder why that can be, I just can't put my finger on it. 
IR Information : Sales Data - Dedicated Video Game Sales Units
www.nintendo.co.jp
Mozza
Member
Well the PS5 won't, there is more copetition in the core space now, and even if Microsoft is not doing as well as they did with the 360, they will still take enough units to stop Sony ever getting close to PS2 numbers.
Unknown?
Member
That isn't the reason. The reason is prices don't come down anymore. PS4 never officially dropped below $299. At $199 with black Friday sales at $149, it would have beat the PS2.
Mozza
Member
It is the reason, the core console market is roughly aroung 180 million units, and has pretty much been around this number since the PS2 days, people come into the market as others leave the hobby. For Sony to now sell 160 million or so units, ( if this is even the actual PS2's numbers in the first place ).... then Sony would need a totally unrealistc share in the core console market. it has nothing to do with price.
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yurinka
Member
We're seeing in the sales rankings that PS5 keeps enlarging their market share against Xbox. They keep enlarging their fanbase via PC, movies and tv shows.
In the leaked Insomniac numbers we saw that as of a year ago half of new PS5s sold were sold to new PSN users who didn't have a PS (at least with PSN) before, and that they still had a giant and record at this point of its lifetime PS4 active userbase (which can also be seen in the 123M PSN MAU record breaked in December) of people who would upgrade later.
As I remember, launch aligned as of December PS5 was only under 3M behind PS4.
According to Jim Ryan in this interview, PS5 is on track to end being the best performing console ever, not only in units sold.
Nintendo left the home console market after they realized with WiiU they couldn't compete, and has been kept alone in the handheld market, where they moved their home console resources.
So Switch is the successor of WiiU (13.56M) + 3DS (75.94M) + Vita (around 15M), so less than around around 104.5M since must have been overlap.
Or in the previous gen, Wii (101.63M) +DS (154.02M) +PSP (82.52M), so less than 338.35M since must have been overlap.
If you remove the Nintendo home consoles from the equation would be a portable market of around under 91M (there was overlap) in the previous generation and under 236.54M in the previous one.
So by adding their home console resources Nintendo is recovering is party recovering the portable consoles market lost in the previous generation but still far from the one portables had the DS+PSP generation.
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Ridge Racer and Gran Turismo were real magic gate for me, including the demo disc.
darrylgorn
Member
Right now its pacing seems slightly below Switch (at least as far as sales go). Sony consoles do seem to have more robust annual sales though. Nintendo is a bit of a wildcard as Wii dropped like a stone in its later years and the 3DS essentially replaced the DS, so the next few years will be interesting to see how PS5 can compete near the end of its cycle.
Looking at PS2, the PS5 would need a substantive boost if Sony expects it to keep the same pace and if it does only sells the 21M revised sales number for this year, then it will be an uphill battle.
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Mozza
Member
I would not trust jim, he thinks the core console market is increasing, which is based on adding Nintendo's share, when in effect Nintendo are not really in the same market, It's like Reggie said all those years ago, Red and Blue ocean markets. As it stands the PS5 would do very well to end up at PS4 numbers, or slightly better. This figure is more dependent on how much of the market Microsoft end up with, more than anything else.
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nial
Gold Member
It was a random comment in a farewell podcast, it's not like they're making a big deal about it with press releases and shit like that.It's amazing Jim and Sony are telling us how many consoles a machine released in 2000 has actually sold, wonder why that can be, I just can't put my finger on it.
IR Information : Sales Data - Dedicated Video Game Sales Units
www.nintendo.co.jp
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yurinka
Member
The official data from Sony says they discontinued the PS2 in January 2013 and that as of almost a year before that data where they did stop producing it, in March 2012, they had sold 155M. Having shipped from April 2011 to 2012 5.0M units.
So it's perfectly possible that from April 2012 to 2013 they sold another 5.0M units more. But in the public Sony records wasn't mentioned becase that fiscal year they did merge PS2 and PS3 sales numbers.
It was estimated that the official "more than 155M" of the PS2 were between 158M and 161M, so 160M is perfectly possible.
Jim Ryan "doesn't think" PS5 is growing the market, he has the real market numbers and knows what is happening. He knows that PS5 is only launch aligned 2-3M under PS4 (even if with the launch shipment covid related issues), that -as of we saw in the leaked Insomiac data- over half of the PS5 sold are sold to new PSN users, that PS keeps eating market share to Xbox, and that they still have a record amount of active PS4 players who still hasn't upgraded to PS5. He knows they are growing.
In the past he said they had signed a record number of 3P exclusives for the PS5 gen, and Sony also mentioned they did a record investment on 2P deals. Plus we know they have a record amont of 1P games under development thanks to their acquisitions and manpower growth in existing 1P teams. Plus they are getting new fans via PC, movies and tv shows and getting record engagement in PS5 in metrics like MAU, ARPU, games sold per console, percent of users with PS+, etc. They are now even getting the MS games. So makes sense to belive PS5 will continue improving launch aligned.
Nintendo retired last generation from home consoles market to focus their effort on the portable consoles market (now with tv out) where they are alone. Thanks to this, this generation portable consoles market is recovering in the current generation from the 3DS+Vita numbers, but is still very far from reaching the DS3+PSP numbers of the previous generation, which they won't reach at all. The Switch 2 even less, because they'll have the growing competition of the PC handhelds stealing them market share.
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Mozza
Member
So basically years of retail figures putting the PS2 at around 155 million, then Jim quotes 160 million in a random podcast, but no big deal............ so why even say this in the podcast, in the first place.
Mozza
Member
So basically an estimate of how many units the PS2 actually sold, which magically seems to change depending on how close the Switch gets.
nial
Gold Member
I don't even get what is your point, lol. Yes, Sony themselves reported the 155M numbers, and now they're doing it with the updated ~160M data.
You cannot be this dense, did you miss the part in which the last figures were about a year before the console's discontinuation?So basically an estimate of how many units the PS2 actually sold, which magically seems to change depending on how close the Switch gets.
Mozza
Member
Lol and dense....... classy response with no real substance, the official sales figures are what they are, of course the PS2 would have continued to sell, just like the DS would have, but any figures beyond this point are pure speculation, which is why Sony have not officially released any final figures. LOL..
yurinka
Member
The officially shared numbers from Sony and the SIE CEO quote aren't estimates. Are specific numbers from different time periods that perfectly match. After they achieved "more than 155M" they kept producing (and selling) the PS2 during almost a year more. Having produced that year a round 5.0M exactly match the round 5.0M they had produced the fiscal year before that, wouldn't be rare. That last year Sony did merge the PS2 and PS3 sales numbers in their reports, which should explain why the 160M were achieved but weren't listed there.So basically an estimate of how many units the PS2 actually sold, which magically seems to change depending on how close the Switch gets.
This has nothing to do with the Switch sales, which as of December were around 20M away from these 160M.
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Mozza
Member
I have no issues with officail figured from the manufacturer, my issue is a random figure of 160 million, which while plausable, is based on pure speculation, and quite frankly sounds like a figure picked out of thin air.
nial
Gold Member
Speculation coming from the CEO, okay. I still do not get what is your point, though. Console warring shit? You seem to be mentioning Nintendo a lot.
Mozza
Member
So you take me having issues with pure speculative figures based on no actual reality, as console warring?, sounds totally reasonable.
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darrylgorn
Member
I have no issues with officail figured from the manufacturer, my issue is a random figure of 160 million, which while plausable, is based on pure speculation, and quite frankly sounds like a figure picked out of thin air.
It's good marketing to keep up the #1 console seller moniker which is probably why Sony is trying to inflate their numbers while Nintendo delays Switch 2 in order to make the record.
nial
Gold Member
Tell me more about the 'speculative figures' part, again, this is the CEO we're talking about.So you take me having issues with pure speculative figures based on no actual reality as console warring?, sponds totally reasonable.
Mozza
Member
No doubt in my mind, Sony are very keen to keep the PS2 as the best selling console of all time label, as they know they have zero chance of emulating this whIle Microsoft is still in the mix.
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nial
Gold Member
Irrelevant when you realize how it actually got up to those numbers. Do you really believe it did 150M+ from 2000 to 2006?
Mozza
Member
If you need why a figure of 160 million consoles is pure speculation or an estimate explaining to you, then I can't help you. LOL...
yurinka
Member
The quote of the SIE CEO, who back in the PS2 times was the head of the best selling SIE region, isn't speculation. He said in this interview that PS2 sold 160M.I have no issues with officail figured from the manufacturer, my issue is a random figure of 160 million, which while plausable, is based on pure speculation, and quite frankly sounds like a figure picked out of thin air.
Until know, we knew PS2 had sold "more than 155.0M" until a year before being discontinued. We didn't know how many more units were produced and shipped in that fiscal year because in their reports Sony merged PS2+PS3 numbers for that year.
Now we know Sony produced and shipped 5.0M more that FY(where until now people estimated were between between 3-6M), achieving a total of 160M PS2 sold.
We have a similar case with PSP: Sony said "more than 76.4M as of March 2012", which is until they did start merging their PSP and Vita numbers in their fiscal reports. But we know it sold exactly 82.5M because last year Shawn Layden did show a photo of the last produced unit, which has commemorative message indicating the exact amount of units produced until when it was discontinued, September 2014 (not March 2012). We didn't know the exact number of PSPs until last year, so all we had were estimations until we got this photo.
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nial
Gold Member
Avoiding the question, but fine, not really sure how it sounds far-fetched when you got consoles doing 154M numbers.If you need why a figure of 160 million consoles is pure speculation or an estimate explaining to you, then I can't help you. LOL...
Are you going to have an actual discussion or you're just going to have that cocky attitude?
Mozza
Member
I would sggest around 158 million, bur again only pure speculation. My point is beyond the 155 million we just do not know for sure, yes potentially the PS2 could have sold 160 million, by the same token it could have gone even higher... why stop there, or of course less.
Mozza
Member
I am all for a reasonable discussion, but when you suggest I am being dense and LOL, then I tend to resopond.
Like I said, even though Jim is CEO, this latest figure is pretty much an estimate, which while totally plauusable, has no real official evidence to back it up.
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Microsoft was already in the mix during a large portion of PS2's lifecycle. They're not inhibiting any potential success of the PlayStation brand, at least not since the blunders of E3 2006 were eventually ironed out by the end of 2009. The "zero chance" is a byproduct of not keeping games exclusive, trying to delay an inevitable $399 disc based bundle SKU for as long as possible, and whatever resulted in the current gap in first party publishing (the spinning bottle seems to keep landing on Naughty Dog not having a game ready this year). Outside of whatever Phil Spencer is currently doing on a daily basis, decisions get made upon what makes money, so if they continue to pursue them, someone decided a certain percentage of customers jumping to Switch or Steam was worth the increase in revenue they are seeing elsewhere. They've sold more console hardware in the $400 - $500 range than anyone I can recall, the subscription services are more expansive than ever, and they're undoubtedly earning more money "per player" than ever in the current environment. I can't say I'm specifically a fan of all or any of this, it's actually kept me on the fence to see what PS5 Pro offers, what it costs, and what impact it has on the MSRP of the typical disc based PS5. But I can say, at the very least, their products currently being $50 less than the comparable SKU bundles from holidays is infinitely more logical than whatever in god's name Microsoft is doing with a $349.99 1TB Xbox Series S (same price as I paid for a Series X with a free game).
The long term question in this comparison is if a "Switch Lite", which is entirely a handheld, counts towards the sale of a "console", is Sony extended the same courtesy with any potential portable that doesn't hook up to a TV at all but plays the same software? I'm guessing NO.
Windom Earle
Member
Good times when consoles were still worth buying and were not cut down PCs with identical specs.
Mozza
Member
Sony pretty much had the market to itself in the PS2 generation, glad to see you and others are working so hard to protect the PS2's legacy and reputation, why not mention the Switch not actually being a console too.Microsoft was already in the mix during a large portion of PS2's lifecycle. They're not inhibiting any potential success of the PlayStation brand, at least not since the blunders of E3 2006 were eventually ironed out by the end of 2009. The "zero chance" is a byproduct of not keeping games exclusive, trying to delay an inevitable $399 disc based bundle SKU for as long as possible, and whatever resulted in the current gap in first party publishing (the spinning bottle seems to keep landing on Naughty Dog not having a game ready this year). Outside of whatever Phil Spencer is currently doing on a daily basis, decisions get made upon what makes money, so if they continue to pursue them, someone decided a certain percentage of customers jumping to Switch or Steam was worth the increase in revenue they are seeing elsewhere. They've sold more console hardware in the $400 - $500 range than anyone I can recall, the subscription services are more expansive than ever, and they're undoubtedly earning more money "per player" than ever in the current environment. I can't say I'm specifically a fan of all or any of this, it's actually kept me on the fence to see what PS5 Pro offers, what it costs, and what impact it has on the MSRP of the typical disc based PS5. But I can say, at the very least, their products currently being $50 less than the comparable SKU bundles from holidays is infinitely more logical than whatever in god's name Microsoft is doing with a $349.99 1TB Xbox Series S (same price as I paid for a Series X with a free game).
The long term question in this comparison is if a "Switch Lite", which is entirely a handheld, counts towards the sale of a "console", is Sony extended the same courtesy with any potential portable that doesn't hook up to a TV at all but plays the same software? I'm guessing NO.
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Mozza
Member
In answer to you last goalpost moving question, yes the Switch lite would count in the overall Switch total, as it's the exact same hardware, that plays the same software. It simply lacks the dock, but still in effect the same hardware. Your Sony reference explains this, using the PS2 and PSP as an example, the PSP had it's own specific software, that waS not comatable with the PS2, and vice versa.Microsoft was already in the mix during a large portion of PS2's lifecycle. They're not inhibiting any potential success of the PlayStation brand, at least not since the blunders of E3 2006 were eventually ironed out by the end of 2009. The "zero chance" is a byproduct of not keeping games exclusive, trying to delay an inevitable $399 disc based bundle SKU for as long as possible, and whatever resulted in the current gap in first party publishing (the spinning bottle seems to keep landing on Naughty Dog not having a game ready this year). Outside of whatever Phil Spencer is currently doing on a daily basis, decisions get made upon what makes money, so if they continue to pursue them, someone decided a certain percentage of customers jumping to Switch or Steam was worth the increase in revenue they are seeing elsewhere. They've sold more console hardware in the $400 - $500 range than anyone I can recall, the subscription services are more expansive than ever, and they're undoubtedly earning more money "per player" than ever in the current environment. I can't say I'm specifically a fan of all or any of this, it's actually kept me on the fence to see what PS5 Pro offers, what it costs, and what impact it has on the MSRP of the typical disc based PS5. But I can say, at the very least, their products currently being $50 less than the comparable SKU bundles from holidays is infinitely more logical than whatever in god's name Microsoft is doing with a $349.99 1TB Xbox Series S (same price as I paid for a Series X with a free game).
The long term question in this comparison is if a "Switch Lite", which is entirely a handheld, counts towards the sale of a "console", is Sony extended the same courtesy with any potential portable that doesn't hook up to a TV at all but plays the same software? I'm guessing NO.
Guess you are already preparing your excuses and reasons, if the Switch does manage to sell more than the PS2, this is of course if we can all agree on a actual number fot this to happen.
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Killjoy-NL
Member
The again, Switch is a hybrid, so it's a console as well.
That would explain why not the entire handheld-demographic would jump over to Switch.
It's a solid mix for Nintendo with pros and cons for both demographics, but fact is that Nintendo needed to add the handheld-demographic to achieve their current success.
Making a traditional console again would likely be a similar situation as Wii U.
That's why they'll release a Switch 2.
It's probably why they said they were unsure of what approach to take for a Switch successor.
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You specifically stated that Sony has no chance of emulating PS2's success while "Microsoft is still in the mix". They were already in the mix. For four years with Xbox, and then with Xbox 360 onward until whatever point Sony stopped maintaining PS2 as their primary focus (hard to say exactly when that was, considering first party stuff like God of War II and third party stuff like Yakuza and Persona were better than any of the PS3 exclusive games that predate Demon's Souls and Uncharted 2... which are from 2009).Sony pretty much had the market to itself in the PS2 generation, glad to see you and others are working so hard to protect the PS2's legacy and reputation, why not mention the Switch not actually being a console too.
I also specifically pointed out what Sony is doing right now that may (or may not) inhibit the long term sales potential of PS5. I even pointed that... wait for it... their current pursuits have me on the fence for longer than any previous PlayStation, which would have been hard to predict after PlayStation 3. If Sony ever "had the market to themself", than that is pretty scathing condemnation on how the Xbox and Gamecube were handled. Remember when Xbox dropped it's MSRP by $100 six months after launch?. Do you remember when Gamecube was $99 before the end of 2003? There was never a console cycle where manufacturers tried harder to entice players into purchasing their consoles, and gamers benefitted immensely. To have "the market to yourself" in such a circumstance means you delivered a product that consumers simply found more appealing, and by a wide margin.
And you're perfectly capable of reading the text that mentions "Switch Lite" specifically, so no real point in arguing against a position you're not making entirely clear. I have no hostile intent here. I'm merely pointing out the realities of the market as they existed. If you honestly believe PS2 had this wide open lane with absolutely nobody fighting tooth and nail to compete with, then we will just agree to disagree. PS2's "legacy" requires no defending, not now, and not at any point in the future. If you think games, the market, and the industry as a whole was better in that era, than hey, we actually agree on something. Either way, that's a pleasant spot to wrap this up, because there really not much more that can be said about what Sony was competing with in that console cycle. Enjoy the next thread you participate in.
Zathalus
Member
There is zero chance the PS5 gets to 160 million sold. It was at 50 million sold last December, and with it being another 4 years until the PS6 likely launches (at which point PS5 sales will nosedive) it would need to do 27.5 million each year to get to that. Even assuming another year in the console generation that is still 22 million per year.
PS4 and Xbox One combined were at 175 million, Even assuming Xbox stops producing hardware entirely I highly doubt that means another +58 million to the number of PlayStations sold. Obviously a large chunk of that Xbox owners probably already owned a PlayStation, while others will migrate to PC or Nintendo.
Maybe the PS6 can do it assuming no next Xbox. But unlikely in a market that has not grown its userbase in two decades.
Radical_3d
Member
Never forget.
TheTony316
Member
Even if the Switch surpasses it in sales, nothing will beat the PS2's library, legacy and impact on the industry.
darrylgorn
Member
Never forget.
Wtf was he even riding here? Lol
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
So, shall we list some factors that contributed to the PS2’s ridiculous success apart from original games, for the umpteenth time?
- affordable DVD player
- played all the PS1 library natively
- it was dirt cheap in its final years, something that stopped happening in the PS4 gen
- when it got very cheap, it kept selling in marginal markets
- it had no competition from PC, because PC and console were two very distinct markets and libraries at the time, with very minimal overlapping
I feel the last reason in this list isn’t mentioned enough. After that gen, PC started getting more and more games that would previously be console territory only. Now even PS console exclusives come to PC, biting significantly into console sales. PS2 had an immense library of games that you can’t play elsewhere to this day, and whatever wasn’t exclusive to it, often came first to PS2 anyway. If that market was like today’s, so many people would rather play on PC, as PS2 was clearly the inferior hardware after GC and Xbox released.
- affordable DVD player
- played all the PS1 library natively
- it was dirt cheap in its final years, something that stopped happening in the PS4 gen
- when it got very cheap, it kept selling in marginal markets
- it had no competition from PC, because PC and console were two very distinct markets and libraries at the time, with very minimal overlapping
I feel the last reason in this list isn’t mentioned enough. After that gen, PC started getting more and more games that would previously be console territory only. Now even PS console exclusives come to PC, biting significantly into console sales. PS2 had an immense library of games that you can’t play elsewhere to this day, and whatever wasn’t exclusive to it, often came first to PS2 anyway. If that market was like today’s, so many people would rather play on PC, as PS2 was clearly the inferior hardware after GC and Xbox released.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Why announce this now. Seems odd and a little desperate.
Senua
Member
Killjoy-NL
Member
You act like people are downplaying Switch' success by stating it.I see the ‘akshually it’s a hybwid’ defence force has arrived.
SirTerry-T
Member
Sort of like how the PS2's secret disguise was that of a DVD player that also played games?
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