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Jimquisition: Deus Ex cost $70M CAD, needs 3 mil to break even, talks pub meddling
- Thread starter SunBroDave
- Start date
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Also can Jim ask his contact how working mirrors still didn't make it into the new game engine please
Laurentius
Member
ScuVU
Last edited:
Yabberwocky
Member
Poor Eidos Montreal, shit. SE Europe sounds horrible to deal with.
Mononoaware
Banned
omg, yes. This was some bull shit I thought. Another aspect of the game that just makes it look not impressive when they can't even get working mirrors.
This is up there with EA going "you know what Dead Space needs? Multiplayer and microtransactions!".
What makes my head spin is the guy who did the Deus Ex TV stuff getting PROMOTED for that ridiculous waste of time, money, and energy, only because I work in a marketing department and I see that happen all the time and it will always piss me off. Someone will come up with some "big idea", get promoted, it'll tank, and they'll keep their promotion, while the rest of us who try and tell our superiors what the customers are asking for are ignored or shot down, no matter how many phone calls we get from customers practically giving us a list of ways to improve and asking us why we did that one thing the rest of us said wasn't going to work.
I imagine the developers are just like us. We're professionals, dammit. This is our art and our craft, and we know what the hell we're doing. And yet any dumb businessman in a suit will walk in, look at stuff that's objectively incredible, and give us his short-sighted, untenable opinions or ultimatums, no matter how counterproductive they are.
More developers need to have the freedom to just make the games they want to make, not the "games by numbers" businessmen force them to make.
What makes my head spin is the guy who did the Deus Ex TV stuff getting PROMOTED for that ridiculous waste of time, money, and energy, only because I work in a marketing department and I see that happen all the time and it will always piss me off. Someone will come up with some "big idea", get promoted, it'll tank, and they'll keep their promotion, while the rest of us who try and tell our superiors what the customers are asking for are ignored or shot down, no matter how many phone calls we get from customers practically giving us a list of ways to improve and asking us why we did that one thing the rest of us said wasn't going to work.
I imagine the developers are just like us. We're professionals, dammit. This is our art and our craft, and we know what the hell we're doing. And yet any dumb businessman in a suit will walk in, look at stuff that's objectively incredible, and give us his short-sighted, untenable opinions or ultimatums, no matter how counterproductive they are.
More developers need to have the freedom to just make the games they want to make, not the "games by numbers" businessmen force them to make.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
5 1/2 years. How does that even happen ? Did they started from scratch at some point?
Will be interesting to see what CDPR does with CP2077. Should be interesting and very Deus Ex-y when it comes to narratives, gameplay etc. if early talks from devs translate into final product.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
The silver lining here is that at least Deus Ex MD is still somehow ended up a great game, the microtransactions thankfully by some miracle didn't hurt the game, even Breach mode is kinda fun on its on MGS VR Mission merits....
...And that we'll be getting another Deus Ex sooner than we may have thought.
That said, a lot of those 'thankful merits' aforementioned could be somewhat fortunate or rather lucky considering S-E's behaviour, and sooner or later publisher fuckery could ruin them.
...And that we'll be getting another Deus Ex sooner than we may have thought.
That said, a lot of those 'thankful merits' aforementioned could be somewhat fortunate or rather lucky considering S-E's behaviour, and sooner or later publisher fuckery could ruin them.
Peterthumpa
Member
I think that the problem here is more about Jensen's model standing still, or the lack of animation for it, more than how to make a mirror work.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
That is like $200 bucks tho.
You'll note that most games don't have working mirrors. They might have SSR (like this game does).
On the other hand the Hitman Glacier 2 branch has them. It could also be that the 3rd person model doesn't animate nicely beyond the dedicated sections.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I don't know, there are partial reflections in surfaces, at least for like lighting I think? Like I feel like I saw shiny surfaces that seemed to be doing that. No mirror was a running gag in DX: HR because it was an engine limitation, but I thought for sure it would make it into this game.
Especially funny since Unreal Engine 1, which Deus Ex 1 used, had reflective mirrors
~50 mln US dollars, yeah that's very expensive. 5.5 years of development + marketing budget, seems roughly plausible.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Does Rise of the Tomb Raider contain microtransactions? I need to know if the PS4 version is another SE game I should hold off on buying until it's cheap.
That's what that extra year was spent on - micro-transactions.
I actually don't know, and I played it for a bit too on the Xbox One.. memory betrays me.
I don't know, there are partial reflections in surfaces, at least for like lighting I think? Like I feel like I saw shiny surfaces that seemed to be doing that. No mirror was a running gag in DX: HR because it was an engine limitation, but I thought for sure it would make it into this game.
Especially funny since Unreal Engine 1, which Deus Ex 1 used, had reflective mirrors
There are Screen Space Reflections, but no mirrors. As someone else noted the 3rd person model may not have nice enough animations (also that team isn't all that capable on that front); Mirrors are difficult in modern engines though.
KimonoNoNo
Member
As long as Eidos doesn't stick it's oar in and come up with anymore bright ideas.
AFAIK, no it doesn't. THose were relegated to the XBox one and PC version. PS4 is supposed to have everything already released on disk, including the new DLCs.
R_thanatos
Member
I'm not even surprised that the game tracks every info.. that's something that is not that uncommon .
The 2 weeks before subcription part ? Oh that's an insane amount of bullshit right here.
2 weeks before subcription is where you either remove a feature that doesn't work or try to bug fix things that doesn't work .. not the time to add something else.
As for breach ... Only a few franchises managed to add a multiplayer mode that isn't boring//bullshit/nonsense and deus ex is not one of those.
The 2 weeks before subcription part ? Oh that's an insane amount of bullshit right here.
2 weeks before subcription is where you either remove a feature that doesn't work or try to bug fix things that doesn't work .. not the time to add something else.
As for breach ... Only a few franchises managed to add a multiplayer mode that isn't boring//bullshit/nonsense and deus ex is not one of those.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Fun Fact: You see that "Augment your preorder" thing that Square Enix pulled for Deus Ex? I created a website a year or so prior to it doing the same thing, except it's pro-consumer rather than anti-consumer. It's idea was to provide tiers for games that benefits developers and gamers alike, and gives a new life to a game's community if done right. The more people buy the game, the more expansions and DLC you'll get, and not just garbage DLC. Not only that, but the more you buy, the cheaper the game will get. Essentially, you'd get PC and Console games and DLC as one package, as it's meant to be, for a great price where the developers will still make a lot of money since I would essentially do it for free, and will mostly let them pay for the server and transaction cost.
Essentially, I wanted to reconstruct the way we look at digital games.
However, I was scared, and still am scared, to launch it. When this Deus Ex preorder thing popped up, and everyone hated it, it made it clear that this is something that can be abused. That and even if I don't abuse it, it'll be hard convincing developers to do so and please the community instead of pleasing the investors. I still want to launch it and let it die it's own death, but Square Enix pushed me back to the drawing board.
Essentially, I wanted to reconstruct the way we look at digital games.
However, I was scared, and still am scared, to launch it. When this Deus Ex preorder thing popped up, and everyone hated it, it made it clear that this is something that can be abused. That and even if I don't abuse it, it'll be hard convincing developers to do so and please the community instead of pleasing the investors. I still want to launch it and let it die it's own death, but Square Enix pushed me back to the drawing board.
I'm actually VERY curious whay you all think about it.
AHA-Lambda
Member
$50m+ budget?? The hell is that normal?
Why a 5 year dev cycle?
EDIT: how is 3m units the break even level though? That's more surprising.
Assuming that this 3m would be sold at launch and Square were to get $30 per copy sold (roughly 50% is the standard for retail after everyone else gets their cut), that's $90m?
There is no way this thing had a $40m marketing budget.
Why a 5 year dev cycle?
EDIT: how is 3m units the break even level though? That's more surprising.
Assuming that this 3m would be sold at launch and Square were to get $30 per copy sold (roughly 50% is the standard for retail after everyone else gets their cut), that's $90m?
There is no way this thing had a $40m marketing budget.
R_thanatos
Member
Watch the video ?
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I wonder how much overlap there is with the other DX game, the supposed DX NG2....
Assuming there's two projects going on at the same time, there's going to be a lot of overlapping expenses, likely new sort of CAPEX (or, e.g., maybe buying significant new software... new infrastructure or licenses that went as NG expenses but will be used elsewhere) that may have been done (or put) on the first game's budget will end up being used for NG2... not to mention if resources and staff were transferred between teams, there probably could be some budget weighting where a lot of costs are put on the first game instead of the other project (some for technical reasons; some could even be management and account decisions where it just makes more sense to incur those costs for NG rather than NG2 maybe because they add a good quarter). All of which are so nuanced that the source may not really know, other than just the general 'word' around the studio is that the official 'end' cost is going on paper as 70mil -- there could be a lot of nuance to that though.
So I'd be curious, and I probably wouldn't conclude anything even, until I knew what the budget of the other project also was. Though knowing Square Enix maybe it's also going to end up being 70mil lol.
//edit// by the way, more to the broader topic and all the conversation re: $70mil, it's worth noting that being a tech studio in Montreal, Canada has some tech industry subsidies... i'm not sure the exact in MTL and it's also going to vary based on the ownership and their assets (e.g. you get a bigger tax refund if you're under $50m in assets), but Canada has something like a 35% tax refund for basically R&D expenses, and provinces usually have more... both VAN and TO do something like 10 or 15% (which is why there's so much tech/film moving to VAN for example), and I think in Quebec it's even higher like 30% though that's only if you're a smaller Canadian start-up. the refund can even cover something like $2 million in all R&D wages.... maybe it was more, I forget.
point is, the numbers above are probably wrong but on a $70m budget, compared to a U.S. or Japanese studio, I'm guessing Eidos gets a pretty decent tax refund -- especially on anything they write off as R&D. i'm not sure tho haha a tech accountant from QC would probably have to elaborate to paint a more accurate picture.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
For AAA games yes. Some cost significantly more.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I'd like to think that the head of Eidos Montreal wont be flown to Japan to take unearned shit for this at least with Wada out of the driver's seat.
TBQH, this malware-level unasked snooping is the New Normal and unfortunately I count any game that doesn't ask to do so or explicitly state that they don't do so to be doing so.
At least it ain't Gen 7 and it isn't anywhere near as obviously misused anymore. :\
$35 Black Friday sales at three major retailers confirmed (even if it was consensus GOTY). Hell, Doom
was deep discounted recently, and that one is hot hot HOT.
It's also the New Normal.
TBQH, this malware-level unasked snooping is the New Normal and unfortunately I count any game that doesn't ask to do so or explicitly state that they don't do so to be doing so.
At least it ain't Gen 7 and it isn't anywhere near as obviously misused anymore. :\
Well another bargain bin game !! Here we go
$35 Black Friday sales at three major retailers confirmed (even if it was consensus GOTY). Hell, Doom
4
It's also the New Normal.
potatohead
Member
Dat garming jurnalizm.
Great work Jim, how he gets his sources, don't know, but nice and well done.
70 million CAD for cost of the game isn't bad right now given that most sales are in other territories and bring in other currency.
Makes a lot of sense for devs to move to Montreal/Toronto now honestly.
Great work Jim, how he gets his sources, don't know, but nice and well done.
70 million CAD for cost of the game isn't bad right now given that most sales are in other territories and bring in other currency.
Makes a lot of sense for devs to move to Montreal/Toronto now honestly.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Jesus Christ, I keep pausing the vid in disbelief.
The game sends everything back to Square for analysis
The company doesn't care about games? They're a fucking game developer!! O__O
The game sends everything back to Square for analysis
The company doesn't care about games? They're a fucking game developer!! O__O
Zomba13
Member
Very interesting episode and while I don't like the idea of picking a game apart and stretching it out into 2 or 3 games, I do want more Deus Ex in this style. The telemetry stuff seems silly but I guess if it ties into their silly app they were trying to push then I understand even if I still think the app and tracking everything is needless and stupid (why can't I get the behind the scenes stuff in game? I've found these triangle codes, why can't I see that stuff in game?).
Not touched breach yet and probably won't bother but I do like the style, I like the kind of "low poly" triangular look and the block colours but I play a Deus Ex game for the story and exploration and tackling objectives in a way I want, not playing some thing for high scores or fastest times or points.
Not touched breach yet and probably won't bother but I do like the style, I like the kind of "low poly" triangular look and the block colours but I play a Deus Ex game for the story and exploration and tackling objectives in a way I want, not playing some thing for high scores or fastest times or points.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
I beat and enjoyed the game, but as I said in the OT, this is not what I expected a sequel 5 years in the making to deliver. It is literally the same game with the same little nagging animations etc.
If they couldn't even evolve the game with that much time and money, I am definitely less excited about quicker sequels.
If they couldn't even evolve the game with that much time and money, I am definitely less excited about quicker sequels.
grosvenor_92
Member
SE thinking they needed to add Breach mode thinking players would get bored of the campaign is stupid. Deus Ex is all about the campaign and should never need a free to play element added
Oh hi Jim I didn't know it was you. You're my favorite pundit.
Great episode. I love hearing about inside dealings and behind the scenes scoops regarding the industry. The shit with Square Europe might be inherited from the remnants of Eidos.
Speaking of microtransactions: Thinking back, after one of your last episodes about microtransactions I defended DMC4 Special Edition because the microtransactions hadn't had an impact on the game's design. Which I stand by, as in-game currency is gained at a higher rate and feature unlocking worked the same as the original version, currency aside. The only shady thing is Trish's alt costume being DLC, as the model already existed in the original game and was easily moddable and indeed had been.
But premium content and microtransactions is definitely something Capcom is exploring, as Revelations 2 also had microtransactions, and SFV has the various premium cosmetic DLC. Different company, but I can't help but but be afraid that they will pull some fuckery with DMC5 that negatively impacts the game's design, features or overall quality in some way. If they do then I'm done with the AAA industry. From there on I'll stick with indies and Hidetaka Miyazaki games.
It's a peculiar reasoning. Not knowing about the contents of this episode I might have thought it was something they shoved in to take advantage of MD's audience. Versus releasing a small separate F2P game that would probably be even more ignored as a separate product.
Great episode. I love hearing about inside dealings and behind the scenes scoops regarding the industry. The shit with Square Europe might be inherited from the remnants of Eidos.
Speaking of microtransactions: Thinking back, after one of your last episodes about microtransactions I defended DMC4 Special Edition because the microtransactions hadn't had an impact on the game's design. Which I stand by, as in-game currency is gained at a higher rate and feature unlocking worked the same as the original version, currency aside. The only shady thing is Trish's alt costume being DLC, as the model already existed in the original game and was easily moddable and indeed had been.
But premium content and microtransactions is definitely something Capcom is exploring, as Revelations 2 also had microtransactions, and SFV has the various premium cosmetic DLC. Different company, but I can't help but but be afraid that they will pull some fuckery with DMC5 that negatively impacts the game's design, features or overall quality in some way. If they do then I'm done with the AAA industry. From there on I'll stick with indies and Hidetaka Miyazaki games.
It's a peculiar reasoning. Not knowing about the contents of this episode I might have thought it was something they shoved in to take advantage of MD's audience. Versus releasing a small separate F2P game that would probably be even more ignored as a separate product.
potatohead
Member
They are a games publisher.
The new Square-Enix or whoever controls it really doesn't give a fuck, it's not hard to tell.
Look how they have let Final Fantasy be totally mismanaged. All they want is brands. If they are convinced the brand will still sell they really don't give a shit what goes in the game.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Keep in mind that just because somebody is involved in the development, that doesn't mean they are fully in the know about all things. Especially on multi-hundred person teams. There could have been a variety of reasons for the inclusion, and this is just what this person heard. I'd say it's more likely this was one of several motivating factors. I mean the most obvious one is that by adding this mode, you can have microtransactions in a mode that doesn't cost much to develop levels (on account of its very simplistic art style, lack of texture variation and so on). This would jive with the story about the late inclusion of micro-transactions into the base game.
Laurentius
Member
7NUgl
Last edited:
The thing about DMC4:SE is that you can farm for red orbs/proud souls in Legendary Dark Knight Mode ridiculously fast, so it makes the microtransactions really pointless since the mode is available from the get-go.
SF5's DLC prices are just an insultingly bad value all around, even compared to SF4
Audioboxer
Member
Yay sax intro.
And fuck Square Enix. Bargain bin purchase and/or second hand for me now.
As Jim says maybe the Japan branch are different but who knows. Either way it looks like we have another EA/Ubisoft wannabe.
And fuck Square Enix. Bargain bin purchase and/or second hand for me now.
As Jim says maybe the Japan branch are different but who knows. Either way it looks like we have another EA/Ubisoft wannabe.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Yeah, the comment about the low pay of interns made me think it was probably a lower level staffer... of all the things to include as commentary I doubt a higher level guy would have made sure to include 'oh by the way Jim our interns are paid like shit.' It was so specific and even relative to the average city wage that it seemed like personal commentary. I point that out with zero disrespect, and I don't mean it discredits what he said at all. But it also could also hint at his position, and mean that though everything he said is true, there could be other things that were unsaid -- e.g. the aforementioned budget nuance, other reasons behind something like Breach mode, or did ALL of Eidos not know about the microtransactions until that point or is that just when the broader office memo went out.
Audioboxer
Member
Why not? Many staffers have empathy and don't like seeing people getting treated like dogs who are working alongside them.
I know. That's one of the things I pointed out before in the post I was referring to. The microtransactions also include unlocks for every piece of content in the game, including Super costumes, which are obviously harder to obtain. But they didn't alter anything from the original game, abd just included the unlocks. They should have had all difficulty modes unlocked from the start or after the first playthrough, but I can't fault them much for that. It does however beg the question that they might have left it like that to rationalize the inclusion of some of the microtransactions. But with Capcom it's hard to say. There's always been weird omissions in DMC, so it could easily have been they didn't even consider making unlocking faster.
SFV's costumes and such are so stupid. I never bothered with 4 and won't now. After playing for a while I started to question the whole fight money thing. Especially for characters. Grinding for fight money is so tedious and slow. I can't even be bothered unlocking every character, much less any of the non-premium costumes or stages.
Damn Silly
Member
As much as I love the more consumer-orientated episodes, these occasional dives into developers/publishers specifically are fascinating.
Fine work, Jim.
Fine work, Jim.
The problem is that 1% of people who play these games drop a ton of money on these and so it is worth it to the publishers to push them. No matter how much a game's core audience pushes against micro transactions in 60$ games, ol' Moby Dick is going to whip out his credit card and drop stacks of cash on these companies.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I'm sure pretty much all staffers would, even. I just meant, everyone may feel that why but perhaps not every would feel it was worth including in such a leak. Why single that out specifically and include it as such a specific and relative point and yet not any other area of HR. And I don't mean it confirms their position, but even just as a hint it highlights that such a leak could come from a lot of different levels in the company and not everyone is privy to every decision making process. He could be an accountant even and the budget number so specific that it's not even official but rather his own expert estimate, but that would also mean he may not know every nuance of the decision making behind breach mode.
I meant no disrespect and as I tried to emphasize I don't mean it discredits anything at all said in the video -- I just mean, there could be other things that were not said that were also relevant, and it's worth considering those things. Breach mode, for example... which may very well be mostly because of Square Enix fuckery, but my own personal experience with it is that is still is quite fun in a sort of MGS VR Missions esque sort of way, and the microtransactions so unappealing, that maybe some of the creative Eidos team also felt, hey this could be a cool little side mode to experiment with.
The leaked reason may very well be the main reason or the original reason, but there could be more to it. Personally I hope so because I think with some refinement, and far more appealing upgrades (the weapon art is horrendous), and a bit more gameplay refinment a la MGS VR missions and perhaps better 'free roam/replay value' design a la... almost like Matrix runs on the Sega version of Shadowrun -- it could be a great little endgame feature.
Compared to Grand Theft Auto that's low.
50-100 million is honestly a mid tier AAA title, if you want the best you have to pay through the nose. That's how much a real AAA game truly costs, and you can see where the money went for Deus Ex Mankind Divided, buckets upon buckets of level designers.