It's all relative to what they have the potential to sell though. Deus Ex isn't GTA so it can't get away with a budget of that size.
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Jimquisition: Deus Ex cost $70M CAD, needs 3 mil to break even, talks pub meddling
- Thread starter SunBroDave
- Start date
It's all relative to what they have the potential to sell though. Deus Ex isn't GTA so it can't get away with a budget of that size.
human onion
Banned
All the marketing bullshit surrounding this game from the beginning was turning me off, it's a good thing (as reviews seem to indicate) that the developers know what they are doing and can turn out a great game despite it. The Universe stuff makes no sense with regards to the franchise, and the pre-order stuff was scummy. Last minute micro transactions and this are proof that Square Enix marketing are idiots.
I don't know, seems like a lot of drama over small issues.
I guess it's unfortunate that they spent 2 weeks implementing DLC, but 2 weeks out of 5.5 years is < 1% of dev time.
They spent $50K on some iffy marketing, but again it is < 1% of the budget.
The fact that the game was balanced without microtransactions is a good thing right? So why is it presented as a bad thing?
I mean, I'm all on board for some microtransaction hate, but this seems like pretty weak shit.
I guess it's unfortunate that they spent 2 weeks implementing DLC, but 2 weeks out of 5.5 years is < 1% of dev time.
They spent $50K on some iffy marketing, but again it is < 1% of the budget.
The fact that the game was balanced without microtransactions is a good thing right? So why is it presented as a bad thing?
I mean, I'm all on board for some microtransaction hate, but this seems like pretty weak shit.
SpiceMelange
Member
It's not the fact that it took 2 weeks, it's the fact that it arrived 2 weeks before approval and that it was not planned at all, throwing a sudden wrench in the process.
ramoisdead
Member
And that's why any microtransactions in $60 priced titles are disgusting,whether it's optional or not. People defending them doesn't realize what goes on in the background scene.
What a shame, I really wanted this game but now it's on my "75% off sale" list.
What a shame, I really wanted this game but now it's on my "75% off sale" list.
exmachina64
Banned
Most gaming execs don't play games.
They can, they just have to accept a lower margin than Activision or EA accepts.
They would only consider games which have enough of a prebuilt base already set up to succeed, instead Square Enix have pushed the envelope on what Deus Ex sales are expected and made a dense, short game with astronomical production values over a large length of time. Which in many ways is honestly how AAA gaming should be, valuing quality over quantity, and making a stunning experience that people can play after work and not feel like they're missing out because Witcher 3 has been out for 15 months and they haven't even reached Skellige.
Mankind Divided hasn't even crossed 300k Steam copies yet, idk how much the console sale multiplier is but I can't imagine total console games sell more than 5-8x PC games, so it hasn't hit its magical 3 million copies I would imagine. Square Enix are semi-fine with that, they roll the dice hoping that their AAA games get reviewed like Witcher 3 and go ballistic, but that's different to the EA model where instead of making good games they just ship bulletproof franchises or developer brand names.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Like most videogames, connected consumer electronics and apps in general. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that.
I can totally believe that they've wasted their money on a load of pointless stuff in Deus Ex. It's like Square Enix can't manage their money.
I mean look at XV. It's not even out and it's got a movie, an anime and a mobile game based on a minigame in the game. Between all that, and the money wasted on Versus XIII over the years. I don't see how that game is going to recoup it's costs. Japan's console market is on life support, so I think it'll struggle to beat past FF's sales on console in Japan. I don't see the west picking up the slack either.
I mean look at XV. It's not even out and it's got a movie, an anime and a mobile game based on a minigame in the game. Between all that, and the money wasted on Versus XIII over the years. I don't see how that game is going to recoup it's costs. Japan's console market is on life support, so I think it'll struggle to beat past FF's sales on console in Japan. I don't see the west picking up the slack either.
Sure, but he also argues that the reason it was grey'd out in review copies was that it wasn't actually implemented. So did it actually cause any problems?
Yeah, I get that it's an annoyance from the devs perspective, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be enraged by this, as the tone of the video suggests I should be.
Jim's back has spidey-sense for when publishers start fucking with game development?
Jeez, this video needed an intermission to process all the crap Square tried/did. And the worst part is that most of it is just confirmation to suspicions. That telemetry stuff, eh, no thanks. It's incredible how much effort they are putting in to make buying the game as unappealing as possible. It used to be just waiting for the GOTY edition, now it's waiting for people to dig around in the files to see if there's any fuckery going on.
Jeez, this video needed an intermission to process all the crap Square tried/did. And the worst part is that most of it is just confirmation to suspicions. That telemetry stuff, eh, no thanks. It's incredible how much effort they are putting in to make buying the game as unappealing as possible. It used to be just waiting for the GOTY edition, now it's waiting for people to dig around in the files to see if there's any fuckery going on.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
That sucks. I really like this franchise, it deserves a better working environment.
I still don't understand why they did this.
Like, the game's graphics aren't especially good, and they branched from Hitman's engine, so it's not like they're getting constant targeted updates from another studio due to this, so what did they gain by not licensing an engine?
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
I guess this pretty much completes the circle that Square-Enix is generally not a good publisher in both sides of the coast. 3 Million for Deus Ex to break even and 10 Million for FFXV? Good Luck with that.
Because there's no way the microtransactions could be worth the money if they get shoved in at last second. They are a ripoff by even by microtransaction standards.
Five years ago: what engine would you pick? UE3?
They seem similar to the ones I've seen in EA racing games which I never had any want or need to buy either.
That's good news if you don't like microtransactions. Now you have no reason to feel bad about not buying them.
That's much better than something like Mass Effect, where you feel like you're missing out on a major part of the story if you don't buy the DLC.
How do they stay afloat? Budgets seem ridiculous.
cartographer
Member
Probably, and you then you likely don't end up taking five years to make it.
And even if you do, there are still major publishers releasing UE3 games in 2016.
texhnolyze
Banned
SE is on track to take the crown from EA as the worst company.
I can't defend microtransactions in any game, but the only time I really feel annoyed by it is if it actually feels the game was designed to 'punish' you for not buying them. I'm early on in Mankind Divided, but I'm really not getting that sense. I get Praxis quite steadily for hacking and finishing missions and have more than enough credits for ammo and crafting. I feel I'd have to be really impatient to consider paying additional real money to get those things even faster, so microtransactions feel quite easy to ignore.
I appreciate these topics are being discussed, but I hope people reading these threads aren't getting the impression that Jim doesn't like the game. He gave it a 9/10 in his review and liked the game a whole lot. So I see this as a separate (though certainly related) conversation aside from the overall quality of the game itself.
I appreciate these topics are being discussed, but I hope people reading these threads aren't getting the impression that Jim doesn't like the game. He gave it a 9/10 in his review and liked the game a whole lot. So I see this as a separate (though certainly related) conversation aside from the overall quality of the game itself.
I'm strongly against extra microtransactions and such in full priced games, but this seems relatively innocuous to me. They came in so late there's little chance they affected the game, and designing around mtx is the concern. If we're gonna have mtx shoved into every game, and it's clear we are, this is the least offensive way to do it, I guess.
Nothing, especially given the game itself. The only reason not to license in this day and age is if there is literally no tech that supports what you're doing. Deus Ex is a game that could have easily been made in unreal, and if they wanted advanced graphics features those aren't rocket science either.
Considering dev stated 5 years ago, the game is probably also a victim of the old Japanese way of "everything has to be our engine". As far as I can remember, FF7R is their first licensed whole engine game since The Last Remnant, though it seems like they're going to move towards more licensed engine use in the future.
KeyBladerXIII
Member
They're recording our actions?
Ok everyone, start jumping over and over and maybe they'll be convinced that we want a Deus Ex platformer.
Ok everyone, start jumping over and over and maybe they'll be convinced that we want a Deus Ex platformer.
I'm assuming that meaningful development didn't start until way later given Thief came out in 2014 and they only spent $70 million, suggesting they didn't have all 400 staff of the Deus Ex team on it for 5.5 years (or probably even more than 2-2.5 years).
The telemetry stuff doesn't strike me as weird. That's basically every game.
old manatee
Banned
It's in Red Box, so I guess I'll just rent it.
Not shocked.
Every non-Japanese IP from Square-Enix has this in their console games now.
Tomb Raider has it, while Just Cause and HITMAN have systems that disable online elements if you turn off your connection. HITMAN goes a step further, for the live stats on the types of kills you're doing only show up when playing online, letting you know firsthand this is being sent to Square-Enix.
I feel like Mankind Divided is a very fulfilling game as it has dozens of hours of gameplay, the ending didn't piss me off compared to some other game endings(I.E. Army of Two: Devil's Cartel, Mass Effect 3, Alien Isolation, Halo 2) but yeah it definitely feels like this game was cut in half.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Another great video. Thanks Jim.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Square Japan certainly has it's own share of problems, but man it really seems like they should put a leash on Square Europe.
Hellwarden
Member
Details in video could be why the PS4 version often runs like shit.
Their engine is a fork of the fairly capable glacier 2 engine. I suspect the bulk of their effort was spent on the gameplay systems on top of the engine. This would be something they would need to do even on UE3.
Zombie James
Banned
God damn, what an episode. The way Square is interfering with development, not understanding what's being developed, and apparently not giving a shit about games really gives me a Konami vibe. If F2P games are what they want to make, they don't need to invest $70M to do it.
Yeah it does, there are cards you can buy for Challenge Mode, but unlike Mankind Divided, they are thankfully not present in the main campaign.
For a lot of AAA games that is about the average budget, the most expensive game of all time is GTA V, which cost 265 million dollars to make.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
18 months - 2 years sounds probably right for the whole team working on it, considering Thief and the second team splitting off to start working on the next Deus Ex game in 2015.
Is there a Thief sequel coming out? Or another game? If so, there may never have been a time when truly all of the staff were solely on Deus.
TemplaerDude
Member
The original Deus Ex is my favourite game of all time, I loved Human Revolution, I was very excited for this game, but between all this garbage I keep reading I think I'm in the same boat. I'll wait till it's dirt cheap somewhere, I can't support these kind of underhanded tactics.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Microtransactions are a problem, but if (and only if) they don't interfere with my game if I ignore them I'll still buy your game.
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided they're not needed. Yes, microtransactions are still a problem, but I'm not trying to make political statements with my purchases. Square Enix just released a better Metal Gear Solid than Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, and regularly funds hugeass games on dedicated platforms like this that I'm interested in. I'm quite happy with them in general, wading through certain bullshit here and there.
Not about to not support them because they're willing to put big budgets on games. Those budgets and delays mean good AAA titles for me, so why would I complain about them?
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided they're not needed. Yes, microtransactions are still a problem, but I'm not trying to make political statements with my purchases. Square Enix just released a better Metal Gear Solid than Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, and regularly funds hugeass games on dedicated platforms like this that I'm interested in. I'm quite happy with them in general, wading through certain bullshit here and there.
Not about to not support them because they're willing to put big budgets on games. Those budgets and delays mean good AAA titles for me, so why would I complain about them?
Thief is dead, by they do some amount of work on Tomb Raider.
That said, they made some tweet about "300 people on one vision" 2 or so years back, so I assume it was still the bulk of the studio by then.
I wouldn't convert the $70 million CAD at today's exchange rate necessarily.
This isn't that out of whack for a AAA game though. It's pretty standard honestly, and probably a good chunk below a lot of the biggest titles.
Witcher 3 was $82 million rolling in the marketing and that was made in Poland: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1102321
Stop blindly defending Square Enix, people like you are the reason shit like this keeps happening.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I honestly have no idea about what game budgets are beyond back of the envelope calculations based on number of staff members.