Link to the video!
I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the next episode to be about Shenmue 3.
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Jimquisition (June 22nd, 2015) - Shenmue 3: The Good, The Bad, And The Iffy
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
Link to the video!
I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the next episode to be about Shenmue 3.
BodiesWithoutOrgans
Member
Dammit you beat me to it
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
So how are you refuting Jim's view on his iffy?
I don't need to. The Kickstarter is bringing back something everyone wanted, which means everyone wins. Absolutely no one is damaged by this kind of initiative, so all the controversy-mongers painting it as "iffy" are just nitpicking for the sake of having something out of the choir to say. Because just being happy about something basically everyone's happy about ain't cool in some circles.
Without mentioning that the "full disclosure" that came "much much later," actually came a day later, when everyone was still plenty in time to cancel the pledge if they were so offended.
Very good Jimquisition. Jim managed to summarize well the whole situation.
Now it's time for him to be added to that "biased journalists list" that some are already building just because journalists raise questions instead of buying into it and praise the Savior.
Now it's time for him to be added to that "biased journalists list" that some are already building just because journalists raise questions instead of buying into it and praise the Savior.
Danlord
Member
(Just watched the video)
The issue I have with criticism about Sony announcing their involvement after they got funded millions is that it was funded in 9 hours. How long was it really between the announcement on stage, and Adam Boyes (or Gio Corsi/Shuhei Yoshida or anyone else) mentioning Sony's direct involvement?
Because how I see it, is that Sony announced it on stage saying it's very much their project, and to give it it's own limelight for the announcement and then when Sony do post-E3 interviews they can give the disclosure there.
The issue I have with criticism about Sony announcing their involvement after they got funded millions is that it was funded in 9 hours. How long was it really between the announcement on stage, and Adam Boyes (or Gio Corsi/Shuhei Yoshida or anyone else) mentioning Sony's direct involvement?
Because how I see it, is that Sony announced it on stage saying it's very much their project, and to give it it's own limelight for the announcement and then when Sony do post-E3 interviews they can give the disclosure there.
I mean, this is a Jimquisition thread so you kind of do
it would at least be helpful for discussion
well look at that
Interfectum
Member
Passive aggressive behavior... why not just say what you really mean.
I'm afraid this video is already outdated. Sony, Yoshida and Yu Suzkuki have confirmed it is not gauging interest on how much to fund Shenmue 3's development, Sony is simply helping them with future marketing and the PS4 version. Most of the budget is from the kickstarter funding.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
lol.
Interesting topic to go with for Jim. Will watch later this evening.
I don't doubt there are some people genuinely confused/curious about some of the issues being brought up re: Shenmue 3, but yeah, way too much of the 'controversy' seems to be coming from sources whose interest is anything but genuine in nature. Feel just as bad for the people who are genuine about their concerns as I do for people who are actually excited by the prospect of this game, as they're both having to deal with so much shit that is coming from a place that seemingly has little (If anything) to do with Shenmue 3 itself.
I don't doubt there are some people genuinely confused/curious about some of the issues being brought up re: Shenmue 3, but yeah, way too much of the 'controversy' seems to be coming from sources whose interest is anything but genuine in nature. Feel just as bad for the people who are genuine about their concerns as I do for people who are actually excited by the prospect of this game, as they're both having to deal with so much shit that is coming from a place that seemingly has little (If anything) to do with Shenmue 3 itself.
If you enter a thread about a video that raises questions about a topic and exclaim 'I disagree! There are no issues!', then you should probably post why you disagree with said video. Instead you are just using this thread as a soap box to scream about how unfair or upset it makes you that someone is trying to throw a wrench in your hype machine.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
The only thing I took away from watching the video is that the more exposure for the kick-starter the better! So thanks Jim.
Handy Fake
Member
I had a startlingly realistic dream where I was sat watching E3 with Jim Sterling, when he announced that he needed a shit. I said "Well I need a piss so I'll run in ahead of you". I was wearing a blue flannel dressing gown. As I raced in, I as just about to go when I heard the door lock, turned and saw Jim undoing his belt and saying "Well I've never done this before", before going to plonk himself on the bog. Realising what was happening, I moved back, forcibly laughing, sweeping myself away and saying "Well, I'll leave you to it!", then realised I 'd somehow dragged the bottom of my dressing gown through the toilet water and it was annoyingly wet. I sat in front of the E3 coverage again and Jim finally re-emerged laughing, saying "Look what I found!", and he handed me a grey SKYRIM themed cowboy hat saying "Porn is Dova-Kay".
Can't work out of it was some weird sex dream or the Mother of all unholy stress dreams brought on by the spicy chicken and donner meat pizza I'd had that night.
Can't work out of it was some weird sex dream or the Mother of all unholy stress dreams brought on by the spicy chicken and donner meat pizza I'd had that night.
Actually, I explained pretty much in depth why I disagree, despite not really needing to, because I'm entitled to find this kind of attitude rather disgusting and to express that sentiment.
If you don't like my explanation, that's plenty fine, but the fact that an explanation (which you quoted) is there, is, well, a fact.
I'm waiting to see if I'm allowed to have opinions.
KaoteK
Member
Seeing the title I was ready to disagree (for once) with Jim, but I can't argue with his points about the iffy side of this kickstarter.
I'm very much in the "fantastic it's happening" camp and I don't see Sony as having done anything wrong, but the thought of the likes of EA or Ubisoft doing this is frankly scary.
That said Sony and Suzuki probably should have communicated better before, and not after to avoid all the bullshit that has gone on over the last few days.
I'm very much in the "fantastic it's happening" camp and I don't see Sony as having done anything wrong, but the thought of the likes of EA or Ubisoft doing this is frankly scary.
That said Sony and Suzuki probably should have communicated better before, and not after to avoid all the bullshit that has gone on over the last few days.
Jim Sterling
Member
I'm on about three lists of "SJW" journalists to avoid and boycott already.
I can't say I've felt its impact at all.
Teletraan1
Banned
You would be better off listing the non biased ones. Ill start:
Humans have bias', people like whatever they like. Some of them are able to give opinions of the happenings of this industry without an agenda. Others not so much.
I can't really blame Jim Sterling because the information flying about this kickstarter has been so dispersed that it's really hard to keep track unless you follow a GAF thread or something else of the same calibre regularily.
This is what I have learned though in contrast to what Jim explained:
- The original Shenmue didn't cost about 50 million. It cost about 47 million for both shenmue games, that includes also the early Sega Saturn game, marketing, building the engine and distribution. We could estimate the cost of a full shenmue game today rather around 15 million I guess, if not slightly less according to Suzuki who asks for 10 (and the rest is covered by exterior sources)
- Sony is providing help in marketing and will probably handle the distribution through PSN, maybe even so physical release. They provide very little to no funds (edit: it is unclear. Allegedly they paid a sum for exclusivity rights but nothing sure), although that is not disclosed
- The idea of a kickstarter wasn't Sony's but Suzuki himself who came to them. Boyes explains that Sony agreed to give Suzuki coverage on E3 and would provide backing for marketing. But anything else is more or less Suzuki's initiative
- Sony doesn't own the right to Shenmue, edit: neither does Suzuki although he was given full permission from Sega to work on it, which explains probably why Sony can't fund the project by itself
- Both solutions were either Suzuki do the kickstarter now, or goes through the hoops of trying to sell it to Sony which wouldn't have guaranteed at all the game to be greenlight and the process would've taken years.
- Sega doesn't seem to be interested to revive the projects themselves
For me the real iffy thing was mostly communication. It clarified quickly but it's now hard for the unitiated to follow up properly and I can surely understand why some people would be a bit sensitive around it. Although I don't see myself a problem with how it's done. Just how it was explained
This is what I have learned though in contrast to what Jim explained:
- The original Shenmue didn't cost about 50 million. It cost about 47 million for both shenmue games, that includes also the early Sega Saturn game, marketing, building the engine and distribution. We could estimate the cost of a full shenmue game today rather around 15 million I guess, if not slightly less according to Suzuki who asks for 10 (and the rest is covered by exterior sources)
- Sony is providing help in marketing and will probably handle the distribution through PSN, maybe even so physical release. They provide very little to no funds (edit: it is unclear. Allegedly they paid a sum for exclusivity rights but nothing sure), although that is not disclosed
- The idea of a kickstarter wasn't Sony's but Suzuki himself who came to them. Boyes explains that Sony agreed to give Suzuki coverage on E3 and would provide backing for marketing. But anything else is more or less Suzuki's initiative
- Sony doesn't own the right to Shenmue, edit: neither does Suzuki although he was given full permission from Sega to work on it, which explains probably why Sony can't fund the project by itself
- Both solutions were either Suzuki do the kickstarter now, or goes through the hoops of trying to sell it to Sony which wouldn't have guaranteed at all the game to be greenlight and the process would've taken years.
- Sega doesn't seem to be interested to revive the projects themselves
For me the real iffy thing was mostly communication. It clarified quickly but it's now hard for the unitiated to follow up properly and I can surely understand why some people would be a bit sensitive around it. Although I don't see myself a problem with how it's done. Just how it was explained
why are you scared?
Kickstarter is a democratic platform. It is and should be open to anyone and everyone, regardless on whether they're seen by the masses as good guys or bad guys.
Ultimately, the ones who decide are the users. Like a project? Pledge. Don't like it? Don't pledge.
If EA or Ubisoft do it, and their kickstarter is successful, it simply means that enough people like that project for it to get funded, and there's nothing wrong with it.
I dont think Sony have made their role transparent but thats a far away place from the idea that theyve knowingly obfuscated their role.
Considering we are talking about Shenmue 3 I can completely understand why most publishers wouldnt touch it with a bargepole. Anything that makes this happen is largely ok with me.
Its hard to be that objective when its a revival of something as dead as Shenmue. I wish we had further details from Segas role (outside of permission to use their IP), in particular possible remasters of the first two games and if they intend to part-fund like Sony.
ps3ud0 8)
Considering we are talking about Shenmue 3 I can completely understand why most publishers wouldnt touch it with a bargepole. Anything that makes this happen is largely ok with me.
Its hard to be that objective when its a revival of something as dead as Shenmue. I wish we had further details from Segas role (outside of permission to use their IP), in particular possible remasters of the first two games and if they intend to part-fund like Sony.
ps3ud0 8)
Jim Sterling
Member
I wouldn't say that. Yes, some developments and clarifications occurred a little too late for me to get to (I wish Yu Suzuki's attempts to get backers to raise their pledges happened sooner) but I think the points made are still relevant. Sony's support is conditional, based on the Kickstarter getting the traction it needs, and its help is likely going to be invaluable.
Thanks to the mixed messages this past week, my video has unfortunately ended up with a bit of misplaced emphasis, but I don't think it's outdated.
crimsonheadGCN
Banned
Yes, there's even a website dedicated to listing journalists in video games and if they should be boycotted or supported.
I agree with all the rest of your points, but on this I'd say Sony are actually providing funds. Suzuki is likely receiving money to put toward development in exchange for the console exclusivity. But he needs more, and that's what this Kickstarter is for.
Yes. I made a post about it and found out it was a banned site (weirdly I found out about it from a banner ad for the site on GAF).
Of course the awkward thing, and I'm sure this episode was recorded before this was revealed, is that Sony's involvement is less than we had thought and that the majority of the money for the project isn't coming from them. That we've heard conflicting information about this since the announcement is a problem and has breed rampant speculation that could have been nipped in the bud with better communication at the start :/
With regards to Kickstater trends, one concern I do have is that its probably not a good thing if every/most games that require a larger budget to get off the ground have to go through and succeed on Kickstater to get greenlit. We aren't there yet but I could easily imagine a world in which larger publishers would want to do this to mitigate risk. It's easy to get funded if you are appealing to what gamers already know they like (or nostalgia) but like would Splatoon have gotten funded on KS for 2+ million dollars if all they had to go on was some concept art and maybe a half-finished demo level? Would Horizon? Would Sea of Thieves? We could end up missing out on a lot of games (mostly new IPs) because they had to prove themselves through the Kickstater model rather than the traditional model. I do think this model is ideal for smaller/more niche games or genres though.
With regards to Kickstater trends, one concern I do have is that its probably not a good thing if every/most games that require a larger budget to get off the ground have to go through and succeed on Kickstater to get greenlit. We aren't there yet but I could easily imagine a world in which larger publishers would want to do this to mitigate risk. It's easy to get funded if you are appealing to what gamers already know they like (or nostalgia) but like would Splatoon have gotten funded on KS for 2+ million dollars if all they had to go on was some concept art and maybe a half-finished demo level? Would Horizon? Would Sea of Thieves? We could end up missing out on a lot of games (mostly new IPs) because they had to prove themselves through the Kickstater model rather than the traditional model. I do think this model is ideal for smaller/more niche games or genres though.
I hesitated because I can't find a source if Sony actually gives funds. So far there's no real concrete information and most of what i've seen is "Sony isn't backing development"
What i'm guessing is that they do provide fund for anything that is marketing, which granted is already huge (and i'm thankful for that really because it would really help the game) and everything handled on PSN, and like I said, maybe distribution. But as far as the game dev goes, I don't think they're giving money, or very very little (like 500k, which seems to be the amount they give to other indie projects of this caliber when they help out)
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
What behavior would EA or Ubisoft be copying, exactly?
This isn't a Sony-funded game. This is an independent kickstarter that Sony has paid some money to for console exclusivity. It's why we're getting a PC port.
KaoteK
Member
Because, as Jim points out in the video, those two (amongst others) have a habit of turning good things to shit.
I'm well aware what's been going on, I've read all the threads, and as I already said, I think it's brilliant this has happened.
I'm cynical and old though, and if anyone can fuck up a good thing, it's EA and Ubisoft.
Green Card
Member
Yeah voting with your wallet is fantastic advice. That is why there are no unity cash-ins on steam, there is only quality DLC, companies never release broken games, and content from games are never broken up for preorder bonuses. What a utopia we live in.
Stone Ocean
Member
Which brings us back to "don't back their projects"
It's really, really simple. You're not forced to back anything, if companies like Ubisoft manage to kickstart something that's their backer's problem not ours.
I'm a grown ass man, I don't need armchair moralists trying to say how I should spend my fucking money
Interfectum
Member
How can it 'turn to shit' when the crowd still ultimately decides what does and does not get funded?
Yu asking us to, with Sony, fund a beloved, much loved, much begged for series isn't going to lead into all of us Kickstarting Gears 5. I don't see the slippery slope there.
That's an incredibly biased view, considering how many good/great games both publishers released.
That said, even if it was true (and it isn't), the power to decide is in the hands of those who pledge, like for every other project on the platform.
If a project backed by EA or Ubisoft gets funded, it simply means that there are enough people who like that project and don't think they will "turn it to shit."
It's their money to risk,and you're absolutely entitled to fully ignore the project and keep your money safe. So where exactly is the problem?
Hitokiri03
Member
That vg247 headline is really misleading, Yoshida never said it was Sega's idea.
Here is the quote that they use as source
Here is the quote that they use as source
As far as other publishers using this method, I am not too worried, as i think they themselves would think it would be too big a risk maybe.
The case with shenmue would've been different if it was for example...SEGA who was behind the KS, or if Sony had acquired the rights and was trying to do a KS. But for what it seems, this looks just like a real independant project helmed by Suzuki who got the rights from Sega, and Sony just acts mainly as the megaphone because it's Shenmue, not just any other franchise.
It would seem highly counter productive if let's say...Ubisoft decided to do a KS for Beyond good and Evil. Because they're the IP holders, and like Jim said, they have metrics probably already, and they would own part of that money to KS and probably give out better incentives to actually get funding. Seems like a major waste of time and money (although I wouldn't put it past them maybe to try once, but i'm predicting a colossal failure and backlash if they ever tried)
The case with shenmue would've been different if it was for example...SEGA who was behind the KS, or if Sony had acquired the rights and was trying to do a KS. But for what it seems, this looks just like a real independant project helmed by Suzuki who got the rights from Sega, and Sony just acts mainly as the megaphone because it's Shenmue, not just any other franchise.
It would seem highly counter productive if let's say...Ubisoft decided to do a KS for Beyond good and Evil. Because they're the IP holders, and like Jim said, they have metrics probably already, and they would own part of that money to KS and probably give out better incentives to actually get funding. Seems like a major waste of time and money (although I wouldn't put it past them maybe to try once, but i'm predicting a colossal failure and backlash if they ever tried)
I wish the level of Sony's backing was clear from the start so we didn't have all this rampant speculation. I fear it is harming the kickstarter, though I do understand peoples fears.
It does seem now that Sony backing is fairly minimal (in terms of dev funds at least) and I hope that message can be communicated to anyone still on the fence about backing just because of their involvement. Also at the same time some of the hardcore Shenmue fans need to just relax a bit in responding to any negative statements. Your not gonna get more donations by screaming bias and getting angry at them.
For the record I backed day one and am happy however its funded but I understand some concerns.
It does seem now that Sony backing is fairly minimal (in terms of dev funds at least) and I hope that message can be communicated to anyone still on the fence about backing just because of their involvement. Also at the same time some of the hardcore Shenmue fans need to just relax a bit in responding to any negative statements. Your not gonna get more donations by screaming bias and getting angry at them.
For the record I backed day one and am happy however its funded but I understand some concerns.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Just a correction, and a huge one. Suzuki does not own the IP. If that were the case, we may be in a very different situation. Sega granted him permission to use it and Kickstart it.
Aces&Eights
Member
I am actually surprised that more companies have not done the kickstarter thing before. If a dev wants to really get an idea of interest in a game, and by interest I mean people who will actually buy it, then this is a perfect way to do so. Devs invest a lot of money on making a game and sometimes fans shout that they want it "sooooo bad" but then they might not actually buy it when it comes out, meaning they just got caught up in the hype. Pledging on kickstarter shows real people spending real money on your game. This way of gauging interest might also allow us to get games remade that would have never seen the light of day if just left to focus groups and internal dev meetings.
They need to do this with Crono Trigger.
They need to do this with Crono Trigger.
But you basically just said that there are no ifs because 'everyone wants this game, so can't we just be happy'. Jim raised a bunch of questions about what this could mean long-term for Kickstarter. Is it right for big companies to announce already established series' sequels on Kickstarter in order to gauge interest? What about the slippery slope leading to EA, Ubisoft, Activision etc dropping in Kickstarter reveals at their future E3? Could this lead to the possibility of the big pubs using Kickstarter to simply extract more funds out of consumers, like DLC and Mmicro-transactions before it.
Jim's 'iffy' is basically a bunch of questions. He doesn't say 'Don't be excited about Shenmue 3', he just says 'perhaps we should think about what this means'. Do you disagree with all of this?
Shenmue III is a case where I don't care how it exists, because dear god, Shenmue III exists. And honestly, wouldn't we all have preferred that Mega Man Legends 3 have been given a kickstarter rather than canceled?
But as for the rest of you publishers... don't get any big ideas.
But as for the rest of you publishers... don't get any big ideas.
https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/612984022772391936
Yup, I was wondering just how "up to date" the video was before watching, so here goes.
Stone Ocean
Member
The one difference is if the game gets cancelled you get your money back from a pre order but not from a KS