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Jimquisition: Weapon Durability, Fanbase Fragility (Mar. 13th, 2017)
- Thread starter L~A
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I don't mean for this to sound hostileand I hope it doesn'tbut I feel like, for a lot of this thread, you have been unwilling to entertain the idea that someone might find BotW to be anything less than perfect or, more appropriately, "essential" or "a masterpiece."
I get that you don't like Jim's tone, but if someone really hates a system that persists for the entirety of a 50-60+ hour experience, that's certainly cause for a score that says "merely very good" or "great, but flawed." And it's not even the case that weapon durability was his only complaint. It's one that he chose to focus on, and one which he felt impacted the game as a whole quite negatively.
TC McQueen
Member
A lot of the GDC 2017 talks were just made available. Any idea if this is the one they were talking about?
From Rational to Emotional: Designs that Increase Player Retention
Majukun
Member
yeahdidn't want to say anything because there's nothing sure about it ,but i'm pretty suire weapons degrade faster if you hit soething hard with them,like a shield, instead of flesh
freethoughtbubble
Member
That's what I thought, too. Certainly feels that way. Not really confirmable without testing, though.
Also, I call bullshit on spamming Y getting anyone anywhere in this game.
mugurumakensei
Member
Except you aren't forced to fight ever outside of dungeon bosses and the final boss. Aside from guardians( which is debatable itself), you can run from any enemy. Use your weapons on enemies who carry weapons at least as good as your current weapon. Use your low-level stock, stealth, magnesia and bombs when doing crowd control on lesser enemies. Weapons breaking and dying are the penalties for not using the games mechanics.
Why not kill one enemy, use that enemy's dropped weapon to kill the rest and in the process gain several weapons while losing at most maybe 1? Or better yet, use a combination of stealth, environmental hazards (explosive barrels, boulders etc), bow, bombs, magnesis, stasis and so on to minimize how much you wear out your primary weapons on random mobs? A handful of times through 50+ hours I've been in a situation where I'm running low on decent weapons. And then it has taken about 10 minutes to once again have way more weapons than I have room for.
This of course also ignores the fact that avoiding fights happens in 99% or more of all RPGs. It doesn't somehow ruin Zelda if you don't stop and kill every enemy. By the time bokoblin weapons start feeling weak, you should be swimming in weapons that aren't going to all break in a fight against 3-5 bokos unless you're doing something very, very wrong.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Great video, and while I love the game this is my huge issue with the game. It's absurd, actually.
marvelharvey
Member
It is? lol I wish the game told me this.
mugurumakensei
Member
It expects you to explore and take advice of certain NPCs to heart. Also, the loading screen drills into you to try tactics other than directly fighting with weapons.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I couldn't agree more with Jim when he talks about how the durability system makes the games combat and weapon rewards feel pointless. Why engage in any kind of combat when it just eats away at my good weapons, I won't pick up anything that's worth more to me than those good weapons and the combat's kind of repetitive after a point outside of the cool system interactions.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
If you look at other things he's reviewed rather favorably, like Horizon - the things that he goes into not liking were just as substantial as what he didn't like about Breath Of The Wild, which received a far lower score from him. That is my only issue.
The other issue is also that he's been trolling about how much he hates Nintendo and "Zelda fanboys" so much lately - prior to his review, that it would be asinine to expect him to have given it a review on par with Horizon, for example.
It's more the way he handled everything leading up to the review, the review itself - and then immediately following it with a pre-planned 98% complete video knowing it would stir up more controversy and problems.
He lost all integrity and respect due to the way that he went about his review process for Breath Of The Wild. It just seemed like he was "out to get it" before he even played it and I think that's the point.
Imagine if he had given the game a 1/10 what a tremendous backlash that would have got him! He didn't even need to do that though, because just the 7 was enough.
I'm not sure what your point is, but I'm going to point out that most multi plat games outsell exclusives, thats just a fact of numbers.
You'd think we'd have moved on from the days of melting down over an 8.8 as the median age of gamers and especially Zelda fans has gone up over the years. Turns out no, virtually every single page in this thread and the DDOS thread has had someone stumbling over themselves in an embarrassing way to put some new spin on the, "I'm not a fanboy, but" over a 7. A fucking 7.
Even if we take the most cynical of views and assume that Jim is just peddling clickbait here, at least this shit has been brought out in the open because clearly people still have more than their fair share of growing up to do.
Even if we take the most cynical of views and assume that Jim is just peddling clickbait here, at least this shit has been brought out in the open because clearly people still have more than their fair share of growing up to do.
AcademicSaucer
Member
this
These aspects are what makes the combat stay fun; I just personally would still use those things whether my weapons degraded quickly or not.
Nothing1016
Member
I don't really mind the weapon durability. The game just throws weapons at you so much that it doesn't really matter. You will always have a weapon. Plus no weapon is that rare or even that good too make it a big deal. People just need to learn to not be so attached.
As the great movie Frozen once said, "Let it go!"
Edit: Also the map gives you a weapon icon stamp for a reason. If you found a weapon you like, just mark it on the map so when blood moon appears you can get another one. I do this for the rod magic weapons.
As the great movie Frozen once said, "Let it go!"
Edit: Also the map gives you a weapon icon stamp for a reason. If you found a weapon you like, just mark it on the map so when blood moon appears you can get another one. I do this for the rod magic weapons.
It looks to me like a lot of constructive discussion over a misunderstood game mechanic sprinkled with some meta discussion about the Jim Sterling persona he puts on.
Man I love being able to quote myself, http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=231949294&postcount=1872
Me said:
innervision961
Member
He doesn't go on a racist tirade, salute Hitler or make disparaging jokes about women and tell everyone who doesn't like it they are shitlords while he destroys his friends company to springboard his personal career does in this video does he? Oh ok phew, just Nintendo fans 😅
Sorry but not everyone has the hoarding/miser mindset...it's not bad design but your own bad habit. Instead of repair the game has the mechanic where you can replenish your 'special' weapons. I'm not afraid to use my Royal Claymore or Longblade, why? Because I know to to get another which invalidates a repair system and undermines exploration.
Perhaps, spend some more time with the game and use your head. It's one of those games that is fun for people who play with a brain.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
The ironic thing is that the people insisting that this was all a calculated move on Jim's part are basically also admitting that he's also an organ grinder who made the dance like monkeys.
I would agree if it wasnt for the fact the more often than not I cant hold any more weapons, and have never even once gone into a fight and not had a weapon to use. I think its more of a problem with people who like to feel some sort of attachment to their weapons (which is fair enough) but I find the was zelda does it is actually fine and (as has been said a million times at this point) forces you to be resourceful and not just rely on one weapon/ method to take out enemies. Also, throwing a sword into a dudes face is hilarious and awesome.
People saying the game "forcing" you to use weapons is bad design is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Games force you to do things all the time. Force you to fall when you jump. Force you to fight this boss. Etc. Thats one of the very pillars of game deisgn is guiding a player based on constraints. geez.
Side note:
https://youtu.be/AVseQ3RDa6s?t=281
How cool is this part??
The left red bokoblin throws a rock at link and gets hit by his own rock while she attacks the right blue bokoblin
People saying the game "forcing" you to use weapons is bad design is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Games force you to do things all the time. Force you to fall when you jump. Force you to fight this boss. Etc. Thats one of the very pillars of game deisgn is guiding a player based on constraints. geez.
Side note:
https://youtu.be/AVseQ3RDa6s?t=281
How cool is this part??
The left red bokoblin throws a rock at link and gets hit by his own rock while she attacks the right blue bokoblin Deckard Chapel
Banned
How cool is this part??
I don't think Jim is playing - he credits someone at the beginning of the video for using her gameplay footage.
Most likely in an attempt to avert Nintendo lawyers from pouncing on him.
MrCaliaztec
Member
Am I the only person that finds it really funny that he has one of the rare Skull Kid statues from the special edition of Majora's Mask 3D?
Guy hates the series and Zelda fans so much that he even antagonizes them with his podium decorations. The bastard!
Love the video and agree with it completely. I watched it while I cooked a bunch of Hearty Fried Wild Greens in BoTW!
Edit: It may be a Figma Figure or other figure I cant see the base well enough to say whether it is really the statue from MM3D
Edit 2: Actually based on the positon of the hand over the face, I think it is the MM3D Special Edition statue.
Guy hates the series and Zelda fans so much that he even antagonizes them with his podium decorations. The bastard!
Love the video and agree with it completely. I watched it while I cooked a bunch of Hearty Fried Wild Greens in BoTW!
Edit: It may be a Figma Figure or other figure I cant see the base well enough to say whether it is really the statue from MM3D
Edit 2: Actually based on the positon of the hand over the face, I think it is the MM3D Special Edition statue.
MHWilliams
Member
It's worth noting that a few folks are arguing from a single area.
There are three concepts at play: what the developer is trying to convey, how well they execute that, and how that resonates with and engages with players.
Knowing why a developer went in a specific direction and discussing how well they achieved that aim is one thing. Arguing that a player has to enjoy that system and they cannot have issues with it is another. Some folks are trying the latter.
Developers have different aims and players engage with different systems and mechanics in different ways. You may prefer a more freeform objective system, while others enjoy the waypoint. Perhaps a developer has a specific reason for choosing an inventory system with encumberance, but that doesn't change the fact that uncumbered inventory or inventory tetris might also be viable systems. Some players live and die by achievements and trophies, and developers use them as extrinsic motivation; other players hate them and prefer in-game titles, gear, or even weapons as a marker of their achievement. (They do nothing for me personally.) "Why" doesn't necessarily get to if the mechanic is good for a player. Some folks jam hard with the completely open nature of Minecraft, but a number of folks can't get into it at all.
Beyond that, I'll argue that while I understand the reasoning behind the system, I still think Breath of the Wild's inventory and weapon systems are tuned poorly. I don't particularly hate it, but I don't really enjoy it either. My issue is more in the "time to break" side of things, in that weapons tend to go far too quickly for my tastes. I generally don't save weapons for any reason, because for the most part none of them are meaningful. Instead, I've vaguely memorize good respawnable weapons within spitting distance of a Shrine and go on occasional fast travel shopping trips. It's more tedium than anything else.
It's not durability on it's own. I've dealt with and been fine with it Dying Light, Silent Hill, and Dark Souls 2 (once I played a non-bugged version of Scholar of the First Sin). One poster brought up Black Desert Online, which is another game with durability that does it better.
Do I like certain ideas in BotW's durability system? Sure. The crit on break is an interesting strategic choice. But overall, I think the system could be much better with tuning and I have no trouble with other players or reviewers having an issue with it.
In my own review of the game - I gave it 5/5 - I noted a whole number of areas where the game would be divisive for players. Weapon durability was one of them. So I'm unsurprised. Just because I jammed with something doesn't immediately make it great.
As to why it was enough for Sterling to give the game a 7/10, I mean it's a pretty core system for the entire game. I probably wouldn't have done the same, but again, can't really argue with his methodology.
There are three concepts at play: what the developer is trying to convey, how well they execute that, and how that resonates with and engages with players.
Knowing why a developer went in a specific direction and discussing how well they achieved that aim is one thing. Arguing that a player has to enjoy that system and they cannot have issues with it is another. Some folks are trying the latter.
Developers have different aims and players engage with different systems and mechanics in different ways. You may prefer a more freeform objective system, while others enjoy the waypoint. Perhaps a developer has a specific reason for choosing an inventory system with encumberance, but that doesn't change the fact that uncumbered inventory or inventory tetris might also be viable systems. Some players live and die by achievements and trophies, and developers use them as extrinsic motivation; other players hate them and prefer in-game titles, gear, or even weapons as a marker of their achievement. (They do nothing for me personally.) "Why" doesn't necessarily get to if the mechanic is good for a player. Some folks jam hard with the completely open nature of Minecraft, but a number of folks can't get into it at all.
Beyond that, I'll argue that while I understand the reasoning behind the system, I still think Breath of the Wild's inventory and weapon systems are tuned poorly. I don't particularly hate it, but I don't really enjoy it either. My issue is more in the "time to break" side of things, in that weapons tend to go far too quickly for my tastes. I generally don't save weapons for any reason, because for the most part none of them are meaningful. Instead, I've vaguely memorize good respawnable weapons within spitting distance of a Shrine and go on occasional fast travel shopping trips. It's more tedium than anything else.
It's not durability on it's own. I've dealt with and been fine with it Dying Light, Silent Hill, and Dark Souls 2 (once I played a non-bugged version of Scholar of the First Sin). One poster brought up Black Desert Online, which is another game with durability that does it better.
Do I like certain ideas in BotW's durability system? Sure. The crit on break is an interesting strategic choice. But overall, I think the system could be much better with tuning and I have no trouble with other players or reviewers having an issue with it.
In my own review of the game - I gave it 5/5 - I noted a whole number of areas where the game would be divisive for players. Weapon durability was one of them. So I'm unsurprised. Just because I jammed with something doesn't immediately make it great.
As to why it was enough for Sterling to give the game a 7/10, I mean it's a pretty core system for the entire game. I probably wouldn't have done the same, but again, can't really argue with his methodology.
All I can say is there has never been a single time in 40+ hours of play where I've been in any danger of running out of weapons. Rather, my problem has been that the game throws so many good weapons at me that I have to decide which one to throw away, even when my inventory has been upgraded several times.
I think some people just hate all weapon durability systems regardless of how they're implemented or how they make sense in the context of the gameplay loop. I'm sure it's how they honestly feel, but personally I'm glad when games try something outside of the norm, even if it doesn't work perfectly. I think Nintendo deserves some credit for putting such a divisive mechanic into their premiere franchise, just because they thought it would make the game better. There are things I would change (give me the option to quick-drop items please!) but I like the way it encourages careful thinking about every encounter, rather than charging into every situation with your most powerful weapon.
I think some people just hate all weapon durability systems regardless of how they're implemented or how they make sense in the context of the gameplay loop. I'm sure it's how they honestly feel, but personally I'm glad when games try something outside of the norm, even if it doesn't work perfectly. I think Nintendo deserves some credit for putting such a divisive mechanic into their premiere franchise, just because they thought it would make the game better. There are things I would change (give me the option to quick-drop items please!) but I like the way it encourages careful thinking about every encounter, rather than charging into every situation with your most powerful weapon.
If you're never running out of weapons, then what is the point in removing them?
Take Nioh, weapons done degrade but they do eventually become weaker and you switch them out for newer ones. If they all required the same stat, you would be switching out weapons for better ones in much the same way, but that's the benefit of being an aRPG.
I haven't played BOTW, but yeah, if every weapon felt like single use items (much like say, elemental damage items in a JRPG) then it feels like you don't want to use it. It sounds (and looks) like a constant annoyance breaking up the gameplay, because for some reason they don't want you to keep using your preferred weapon.
One game I adore is Condemned, where you would frequently have reasons to switch what melee weapon you are using with guns being more like powerups with limited ammo. And then, this only really works well because it's a linear game, so it can design it's levels and weapon drops that to sync up.
For BOTW, especially since I am hearing that late game let's you keep favourite weapons, doesn't seem to require such insane weapon fragility. Does the game get worse when you get the better weapons? Or is it part of that makes them so good and rewarding to acquire?
For weapon degradation to work, there's something else they need...
AzureFlame
Member
The solution is simple:
when weapons durability hits 0 they become unusable and NOT auto break, if i dont want that weapon, I'll throw it at the enemies to break it, and if i want to fix my 0 durability weapons i go back to blacksmith to do so, stronger weapons should cost more to get repaired.
I don't know why they didn't do that.
when weapons durability hits 0 they become unusable and NOT auto break, if i dont want that weapon, I'll throw it at the enemies to break it, and if i want to fix my 0 durability weapons i go back to blacksmith to do so, stronger weapons should cost more to get repaired.
I don't know why they didn't do that.
It has been the hardest shit ever not playing a Zelda game at launch for the first time since Link to the Past, but I ain't gonna deny the weapon durability as I've seen explained by even the positive reviews does make me nervous. I like a lot of other shit this Zelda is doing, just hope that doesn't damper my excitement when I play.
As to the other end of this video, I can understand how Jim feels. I took mad heat when I gave Phantom Hourglass one of the lowest scores it had on metacritic, and that was just a DS game. And the website wasn't even that big! I can totally imagine how much more that's amplified for a major Zelda release like this as the only game worth playing during a launch window for a site that has a huge megaphone. Wouldn't be fun
As to the other end of this video, I can understand how Jim feels. I took mad heat when I gave Phantom Hourglass one of the lowest scores it had on metacritic, and that was just a DS game. And the website wasn't even that big! I can totally imagine how much more that's amplified for a major Zelda release like this as the only game worth playing during a launch window for a site that has a huge megaphone. Wouldn't be fun
What do people even mean when they lament they can't keep using their 'favorite weapon'? I hope you mean weapon type, unless you really truly only want to play the game using Traveler's Swords and will not under any circumstances touch a Dragonbone Boko Club. (even though they are the same damn weapon type with a different skin)
SpiceMelange
Member
The point is to serve as a soft area level scaling. It fixes lots of design problems regarding difficulty curves and scaling in general that a lot of open world games fall into. Also the reason why in the late-game the weapon system is more lenient is simply because all the zones have high level monsters that can spawn by that point.
Bamboo 竹
Member
I think stoping your aventure just to use a teleport and go to the blacksmith to repair your weapon is way more immersion breaker than collecting the weapon of the monster you just killed before breaking your weapon.
And that's okay. However, do you feel the same way about BotW? If yes, that's also understandable.
AzureFlame
Member
Bamboo 竹;232011783 said:
who said stopping your adventure? you can throw the weapon with 0 durability at the enemies to break and collect new ones if you want, or if you don't want to break that precious weapon keep it so you can repair it later.
MHWilliams
Member
Bamboo 竹;232011783 said:
The system as outlined does not remove the latter idea?
Perhaps I read it wrong or there was something in-between the lines?
SpiceMelange
Member
Unless the repair cost is very high, path of least resistance.
One of my few annoyance with the weapon system. Give me an option to auto equip my next best or next worse weapon with a blacklist (torch, leaf, etc). Pausing the game to quick switch breaks the pacing a bit.
Bamboo 竹;232011783 said:
I've been thinking that perhaps Nintendo should give you an auto equip option in the game. Say like your current weapon breaks you automatically switch to your next best weapon, or if anyone plays like me the least best weapon.
AzureFlame
Member
depends on how strong the weapon is, better than getting shattered automatically and losing your fav weapons, options options.
freethoughtbubble
Member
Great post. What chafes me about these discussions is the seeming inability or refusal by so many to see outside of their own preferences. It's one thing to say, as you do, that something doesn't work and explain one's reasoning. It's another, more annoying thing entirely to insist that nobody could enjoy or not enjoy a mechanic--even in the face of droves of people telling you that they do, thank you very much.
Maybe it bugs me a bit because it reminds me of my stupid adolescent self. I didn't like RPGs. Just would not give them the time of day. Why? I thought real-time battle systems were objectively better than turn-based ones. There was no convincing me. I had perfectly logical arguments and counter arguments for every occasion, all built upon a fundamentally flawed premise. Goes without saying but I used to drive my Final Fantasy loving brother up the wall.
I was wrong, of course; not for having a preference (an outdated one, mind; I love RPGs) but for thinking that I could prove something objectively about a matter of taste. And I was also wrong in the sense that my bias deprived me of the unique pleasures of turn-based RPGs during my formative gaming years. I didn't play Chrono Trigger until I was a grown ass man, and have yet to play FF III/VI. A crime.
Apologies for the tangent in a thread already full of them, but I think it was an interesting parallel of sorts. I 100% disagree with Jim on Zelda's durability system, but I don't thing he's wrong, either.
That would be a good QoL change, yes.
Yea, a black list would be nice as well. Wouldnt want to waste the sledge hammer on mobs.
Bamboo 竹
Member
I know but I can totally see people doing that and hurting their own experience. The game has that kind of limitations, as stamina too, just to let people learn on different ways of playing and enjoying the game.
Imagine the game without stamina bar: Link being able to climb, glide, sprint and swimming as the player's desire, probably the player would just rush to the objetive he is aiming and completely ignore the "mid-ways" that this game offers. For example, at one time I was climbing a beach cliff but my stamina was dropping, so I stopped at a little platform to recharge stamina, my surprise was that on that platform were some bird nest with eggs items that I haven't never collected before. That was a pleasant surprise that I wouldn't have experienced if that limitation didn't exist. I can see the weapon degradation on the same perspective but applied to the combat instead of exploration.
AzureFlame
Member
Bamboo 竹;232012293 said:
That's why i said stronger weapons will cost way more rupees to get fixed, that way will encourage players to think about using their favourite weapons very well, giving more options with equal cost and more immersion.
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