pizzaparty
Member
That the person stating FFXV should have been reviewed more harshly is the same person having a seizure of BotW getting a 7. It has nothing to do with any assumption about Jim having a bias - he gave Hyrule Warriors like a 9.
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Jimquisition: Weapon Durability, Fanbase Fragility (Mar. 13th, 2017)
- Thread starter L~A
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That the person stating FFXV should have been reviewed more harshly is the same person having a seizure of BotW getting a 7. It has nothing to do with any assumption about Jim having a bias - he gave Hyrule Warriors like a 9.
Parapraxis
Member
Seems he used "gamers" in general, i'm not saying it's right, or logical, but I doubt those were direct quotes.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
At this point, I hope at least some of the remaining reviewers score BOTW high enough to bring it back to 98 - maybe that will stop all this needless bickering.
Nah, probably not
Nah, probably not
whalleywhat
Member
Yes, the fictional man was both made of straw and spouted a couple of fictional viewpoints, which may or may not have been made by different actual people at different times.
AquaWateria
Member
Watch Videogamedunkey video on YouTube if you want to see combat variety. It seems to me some people just don't like getting out of there comfort zone and trying new things. The physics system allows creative ways in handling combat situations. And the weapon durability system is used in order to have the player experiment which is Breath of the Wild's main focus, to explore and experiment.
But I get it that no matter what you do in explaining why Weapon Durability is necessary in BOTW and actually intuitive for creativity in combat situations. People will still dislike it because some people just don't like weapon durability no matter what even if its implemented well.
freethoughtbubble
Member
That argument doesn't wash. Of course, it's still variety. Forcing you to eat a bowl of assorted candies still offers more variety than forcing you eat a bowl of green M&Ms. You (and Jim) seem to have a problem with the forced bit--but show me a game that places no limitations on player freedom and I'll show you one boring ass game. The question is whether the limitation adds something to the game; I think it does but you're welcome to disagree.
As for the "far more enjoyable, positive ways" you mentioned, what are they? Give me a good example of a game whose enemies are balanced for button-mashing and creative combat equally. Because from what I understand, the majority of players tend to follow the path of least resistance--opting for the cheapest, least imaginative tactic to cheese through a game, even when doing so reduces the experience to a frustrating slog, and even when using even an ounce more creativity would yield exponentially greater enjoyment.
Vanquish being the prime example--another game that Jim dinged after playing it in a self-defeating manner.
ronaldthump
Member
Parapraxis
Member
Yeah the strawmen is irrelevant either way.
In the end we should all be trying to discourage people from losing their shit over a damn 7/10, it's embarrassing.
These are all fantastic things, and the game does often reward players who approach situations creatively. I love those aspects personally and I think the game is truly richer for these options.
However, that doesn't mean you to gimp the experience for those who mostly like to hack their way through enemies if that's what they like. Or if they want to just cut down a small forest with a woodcutter's axe.
In any case, a point you made really gets to part of the issue that was brought up in the video. Why should I go to the trouble of waiting until night and stealing enemy weapons when they're just going to be the same, fragile crap that I've picked up countless times. The weapon degradation often leads to situations where the rewards for actually engaging in combat, or even exploring just don't match up with the effort on behalf of the player.
After 70 hours the game is starting to get more repetitive. But I mean, it took me that long to notice.
Once I wasn't finding shrines everywhere, the game obviously slowed down. I've seen almost every place, and I'm waiting to jump into my first divine beast.
I think with this game you have to let yourself suffer through some times of low inventory. Now I have pretty much no problem maintaining a set of awesome weapons just because stronger weapons last longer and I know where to find them.
I don't think you're supposed to be too attached to your inventory in the game, but I can see why most people (and games) value keeping your stuff. If you can let go of that, the game is way more fun. One of the best pieces of the game forces you to not use most of your stuff and it's great. Nothing in the game explicitly tells you this and I can see people getting frustrated.
Traversal is sort of the same. For a while I'd assumed that if you had a horse out in the field, you had to call that back to the stable before getting another (not the case). If you don't really know or notice how the game highlights points of interest then climbing can be really dull. Stamina prevents you from taking the shortest path.
I guess in short the game constantly challenges you subtly and if you can't think of a workaround within your patience limit it's not gonna be fun.
Once I wasn't finding shrines everywhere, the game obviously slowed down. I've seen almost every place, and I'm waiting to jump into my first divine beast.
I think with this game you have to let yourself suffer through some times of low inventory. Now I have pretty much no problem maintaining a set of awesome weapons just because stronger weapons last longer and I know where to find them.
I don't think you're supposed to be too attached to your inventory in the game, but I can see why most people (and games) value keeping your stuff. If you can let go of that, the game is way more fun. One of the best pieces of the game forces you to not use most of your stuff and it's great. Nothing in the game explicitly tells you this and I can see people getting frustrated.
Traversal is sort of the same. For a while I'd assumed that if you had a horse out in the field, you had to call that back to the stable before getting another (not the case). If you don't really know or notice how the game highlights points of interest then climbing can be really dull. Stamina prevents you from taking the shortest path.
I guess in short the game constantly challenges you subtly and if you can't think of a workaround within your patience limit it's not gonna be fun.
freethoughtbubble
Member
Yes, it does mean that because no game can be all things to all people. There are plenty of games that cater to players that like to hack their way through enemies. Dynasty Warriors, for example.
Not a Zelda fan, not a Nintendo fan. But come on... I think anyone who's played this game can see how special it is. Weapon durability? I mean I don't disagree on some of the points brought up, but there's weapons everywhere. And I absolutely like how I've been forced to change up all play styles, I'm the guy when finding the awesome weapon will just use that entirely. I disagree completely, 7/10 is a hey look at me review (imo).
Jim made a decent stink over Zelda "forcing" him to play a certain way.
That's a horrible argument. Every single game ever made "forces" you to playa certain way. Zelda botw at least moves as far away from that as possible. I see jim's complaint, and then I watch dunkeys video, and I just don't understand.
That's a horrible argument. Every single game ever made "forces" you to playa certain way. Zelda botw at least moves as far away from that as possible. I see jim's complaint, and then I watch dunkeys video, and I just don't understand.
texhnolyze
Banned
Haha yeah, just realized that he gave TLG a 6/10. It was my 2nd GOTY in 2016.
But he gave Nioh a 10/10 last month. It seems that our taste is somewhat complicated.
Gunslinger
Member
Based on the fps issues alone this game imo should score around 8.5/10. No higher. If the game was stable then I can see a 9.5/10. But as of now bad (imo) weapon system and fps issues drag the game down to 7.5/10. So I agree with Jim sterling.
whalleywhat
Member
It was relevant enough a couple of minutes ago for you to incorrectly call it out. And kindly refrain from telling me what we should 'all' be trying to do. I think we should all recognize that paying $500+ a day for botnets is never representative of some sort of grassroots sentiment.
Professor Beef
Banned
People care too much about Metacritic to realize that a 7/10 is still a good score.
ronaldthump
Member
I agree with his TLG review.
AquaWateria
Member
The funny thing is when you see Dunkey's video it really makes Jim's argument seem weak lol.
Its like the complete opposite.
Its like the complete opposite.
Ehh, can't agree with Jim at all on the weapon durability complaints. He says the game is full of weapons too good to use but that statement contradicts itself--if the game is full of these weapons, in reality they're actually not too good, are they? Especially in the later game, you're constantly getting really powerful stuff and by that time you should know when it's time to bring out the big guns.
The ranting portion was surprisingly reserved for Jim.
The ranting portion was surprisingly reserved for Jim.
Parapraxis
Member
"inocrrectly" (lol) calling it out? I don't think the strawman is a good argument tactic, but I could see where the original poster was coming from, he sees a hypocrisy among gamers in general, it's not really that hard a concept to understand.
If you think it's reasonable for people to be flipping out over a 7/10 then I don't know what to tell you, I fully agree with that score, and Jim makes a lot of points that I would. 7/10 is a good score, BotW is a good game. I don't think it's as amazing as most people, but I have a right to my opinion, and so does Jim.
I think if anybody should "kindly refrain" from doing something, it's the people defending others being total idiots over a 7/10. Me saying we should discourage shitty behavior is just too much I suppose.
I've never had a problem with durability. I mostly at this point have a problem with throwing away weapons I don't use and I keep getting more good ones. So, I actually have the opposite problem where I can't use a weapon enough to get it to break in the first place. I guess it's because I explore almost everything and am not going through the main story fast at all.
primasaurus
Member
It's nice to be "forced" not to care about weapons or get too attached, and just use them all trying out some unique ones, they are easy to find as well, it's a simple system, and interesting
Aenima
Member
I dont. TLG is a masterpiece even with his small flaws, its a unique and amazing experience. I also dont agree with Nioh being a 10/10, its a great game but to me both Nioh and TLG are 9/10 games, But TLG gets a Masterpiece stamp cuz its a game that will be remembered for many years to come.
I'm not talking about button mashing per se, Zelda games have never really been like that and a lot of enemies in the past required you to apply variety through more subtle ways like being weak against certain weapons. If you want to predominantly play with a sword or similar weapon, you still should have to play smart, same as most Zeldas of the past or any decent action game.
And yeah, I even think it should put you at a disadvantage compared to those who mix it up and are resourceful, but that should be achieved through enemy variety and intelligence. (for instance flying enemies being far harder to take down using conventional means, heavily amoured enemies being extremely difficult to beat using your average sword, faster enemies harder against slow moving weapons etc etc.
The issue I have with the degradation system is that it really has a huge effect on the flow of combat, to the point where it feels like you spend a lot of your time going through menus. This exacerbates another issue I have with the game which is inventory management which just feels cumbersome.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
so Jim's review would have prevented it from becoming 99.
Lol
If it gets back to 98, no one will be able to think otherwise.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
One of the things I find legitimately funny about Jim's videos is the footage of a game that's completely different/unrelated to the one he's currently talking about. What's the name of that crappy-looking game he shows footage of? You know, the one with the bald person wearing a bikini killing what appears to be... zombies? I was very amused throughout.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Hate weapon durability in games. Haven't played Breath of the Wild, but this definitely looks like something that would drag it down for me.
No, Zelda haters are, it seems. The weapon system is a non issue aside from some QA stuff. Either you like the style or you don't. But nothing is broken. The 50+ perfect score reviews clearly prove it. Someone complaining about it either do not enjoy the mechanic or simply hating. That's all there is to it. Game of the generation material, boys. Accept it.
Because you can simply get another brand new one??? What's the point of repairing? Wow. You will notice that certain weapons that cannot respawn the game has repair for it. Do you have the game? Maybe you haven't gotten that far yet.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
So is the world.
At this point, I hope at least some of the remaining reviewers score BOTW high enough to bring it back to 98 - maybe that will stop all this needless bickering.
Nah, probably not
Or you could just stop caring about the BotW metacritc average. Believe me, you'll be much happier.
Personally I think that would be an in-game economy extremely difficult to balance. Any examples of games doing it this way? What you'd likely end up with would be people hoarding and spending time trying to farm rupees to cover repairs and very few, likely non-existant instances of people actually opting to throw away their weapons.
I get that you want to find a middle-ground on the durability mechanic but it's not easy to find which is likely why most games opt for a durability mechanic that is little more than a minor nuisance. The way BotW goes all-in on the mechanic is like a breath of fresh air to me. Finally I'm using my inventory, not just hoarding. Finally I'm using all weapon types and all tools at my disposal. And even "bad" weapons still has their uses 50+ hours in!
This SHOULD be influential but I fear the backlash will lead to a continuing trend of absolutely meaningless durability mechanics.
You will notice one major theme of the game is player discovery. They intentionally do not tell you many things. This mantra permeates the whole game. They want the player to experiment. I learned this from their GDC presentation.
This is not your casual handholding game. They are not catering for the masses here but players who want to spend time exploring and questioning the game world. They purposely give you weapons that break quick at the early parts of the game to make you stop and think how you can engage by using your tools, environment etc in battle. If you're a player who loves to hack and slash then too bad, they are not catering for that kind of singular gameplay here. It's like going into Gran Turismo for Burnout style racing and then shitting on it because it feels too real.
miller.skippins
Banned
gamerMan
Member
That's the thing about Zelda. it doesn't force you to play a certain way. if you are approaching combat in a way that you are just killing enemy after enemy in the same way the weapon destructibility is going to stick out. You are just trading weapons for weaker weapons and really you aren't going to have any emergent experiences.
If you approach it more creatively, you are going to get a lot more out of the weapons as you can often dispatch enemies in anyway you like. For me, I always love trying new things in each battle and was often surprised they would work. Plus, the weapon destructibility is only a problem early in the game. I do wish Nintendo gave you more detailed stats about the weapon's strength. It's not funneling you to play a certain way.
It's a game that encourages you to be creative, but you are also free to approach it mindlessly. I like that Nintendo doesn't tell you how to play. You have to figure it out. It's a design decision for sure but it goes with what Nintendo was trying to achieve with open ended game design. Sorry, no more hand holding.
I like that the game doesn't lay things out. Sure the enjoyment you get out of it is limited by your creativity, but that is exactly why people have fallen in love with it.
Good post, but yeah I can't see myself in the future going "this Ubisoft/Bethesda open world game is amazingly well designed!" It's just not going to happen. The only thing that matters is that Nintendo continues to make the kinds of decisions that baffle some people, so that I have a reason to invest time and energy into AAA games.
Giftofgab24
Member
What's the big deal. Is it because Nintendo has to say "one of the best rated games of all-time" instead of "tied for the best-rated game of all-time"? Completely ridiculous.
Netherscourge
Banned
Encouraging creativity = taking control away from the player. In this case, if you play it "mindlessly" (aka the way you want to play it), you are being punished.
A lot of people would rather decide for themselves what they would want to use. I think that's the #1 problem for Jim and other people with similar opinions.
It's not about hand-holding. It's about preferences.
Says the person with the BotW avatar about the man with half a million subscribers. I'm not Sterling's biggest fan, but my advice to you is to just enjoy playing your Nintendo games and
to psychopathically obsess less about numbers.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
LOL
It's not like I'll lose any sleep over it - however it was really cool to think that the score could go from 98 to 99 - after over 3 times the amount of reviews as Ocarina of Time accrued; but 97 is still an incredible achievement - even though it took two anchors to weigh the ship down
Evidently it does force you to not just pick a weapon you are enjoying and use it...
But you can play Zelda how you want to play it.
His complaint about the rain and climbing is strange because those kinds of mechanics exist in almost every game. Every single game out right now has limits put in place that arguably keep the player from "playing how they want"
This argument has zero merit. Some games give you freedom within its own borders. It's like me playing Halo and choosing only to use the assault rifle and when it's out of ammo I'm like wtf this game is forcing me to use other guns. Or playing mindlessly as you put it and blazing away my ammo then saying omg I'm being punished for playing mindlessly.
For a lot of game reviewers, a "7/10" is a "C" or a "C+" at best. People look at scores like they look at their school grades. Jim isn't one of those reviewers however.
Hierophant
Banned
people still care about this meaningless bullshit? what the fuck did we not have a 50 page thread where fanboys showed off how fucking insane they were for caring so much about videogame numbers
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