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Jimquisition: Weapon Durability, Fanbase Fragility (Mar. 13th, 2017)
- Thread starter L~A
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shadow2810
Member
You get better weapons from fighting monsters more often than from chest....
s_mirage
Member
Damn, so that's where I recognised it from!
Well, since I haven't played, I can't say if it's good or bad. But at the very least I felt annoyed seeing the message that weapons were constantly breaking in the video.
But I don't know. If it's such a good mechanic and adds value to the game, why not just keep it for the whole game? It's just weird seeing people say it ain't a big deal because eventually stops being a thing.
~~
That being said, is this game worth playing at all on a Wii U or should I wait to play on a Switch. Are saves transferrable?
Exactly. Some people act like everyone who doesn't enjoy weapon durability is just too dumb to understand how brilliant it actually is.
You can definitely understand a concept and still be continuously bothered by it. A perfect example would be permadeath - it's an very exciting mechanic, but many people simply don't enjoy the tension it brings.
Likewise, many players love finding new gear and keeping it. Knowing that every single weapon has a very limited lifespan is guaranteed to rub many people the wrong way, especially since getting better gear is such an integral part of the adventure style games.
Not every mechanic resonates with every player. Weapon degradation has always been a very controversial element, just like permadeath or inventory limits.
The people complaining about rain make no sense. You are never forced to climb when its raining there are a million of different ways to reach a destination and the game is pretty clear when its about to start raining. This is the same kind of complaint you would see people throw at Majoras Mask that the timer is ticking down even in dungeons even though its completely the users fault for entering a dungeon when there is not enough time to finish it. Breath of the Wild like Majora actually respect the players intelligence. Which is something not seen in a Zelda game in a long time and the last thing i want is for Nintendoto go back to the usually shoving down tutorials down our throats.
I honestly can't tell if this is meant as a defense or attack on the guy.
Breath of the Wild is focused on survival though...
I really find that it's the first game in almost ever that I felt like I was encouraged and rewarded for actually using the items in my inventory, rather than hoarding them like I do in 99% of other games I play with materials, weapons, and supplies. Which I guess is why I largely disagree with him. I think it's cool that the inventory is so fluid (in all types of slots), and that i'm not just using only one sword the whole game because it's what I think is best.
Not to say I don't understand why people don't like it, but I think i'm entirely opposed to that viewpoint because it clicked for me in a satisfying manner. The hotmenus that allow me to switch weapons on the fly without having to go to a pause-screen/menu helps keep my involvement, and without it I don't think i'd have had nearly as much fun with combat otherwise.
Now what really would've fucked the whole system up would've been a weight limit.
breath of the wild definitely flirts with the post apocalyptic survival stuff. hyrule has been devastated for the past 100 years when link wakes up and you do have to battle the elements in some respects.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
Weapon durability is kind of annoying. That's why I think bombs are so great in this game. You can use them to lure enemies in, knock them out, and usually their weapons away too.
So if you're fighting against enemies who won't have good weapons in return, blast them, knock their weapons, take theirs, and repeat.
Also bows have crazy durability and there's a region not very far from the beginning that gives them and arrows away like crazy.
So if you're fighting against enemies who won't have good weapons in return, blast them, knock their weapons, take theirs, and repeat.
Also bows have crazy durability and there's a region not very far from the beginning that gives them and arrows away like crazy.
WordsintheWater
Member
This sentence right here is so patronizing, I dunno if you meant it to come off that way, but it sure does.
I'm completely with you on the encouragement to use stuff perspective. EverYtHing matters, but nothing dominates your weapon focus to much, for the Just part. It keeps things flUid and note dynamic inventory wise.
Aenima
Member
I dont see it that way. I look at Zelda and 1st thing it comes to mind is fantasy adventure and exploration rpg. Its certanly a game where i dont see weapon durabity as a good or any fun option. Thers many way s to offer players incentive to try new weapons without having them break all the time at middle of combat. Worst of all is the immersion breaking that it does, having to pause a battle to open a menu to switch weapons. Dunno but its not for me.
Nioh is suposed to be a much more game focused on "survival" hardcore challenge, and even that game got rid of weapon durability from the Alpha version, cuz ppl that played the demos dont liked it. In the end the game offers alot of weapon choices and make players want to try new weapons all the time, cuz you always getting new and better loot, without the shitty weapon durabily mechanics.
They'd quickly find in playtesting that most players would use a handful of weapons at most and fast-travel to towns to repair once those hit 0 durability. Making weapon breakage optional is effectively removing it. At that point your game-design options is either to remove weapon degradation completely or make it much slower as to minimize the time players spend on going to a hub for repairs. This is what a lot of RPGs do, include durability but make it completely pointless because you're never going to let that favorite weapon of yours break and you're never going to use anything except that favorite weapon if you're not forced to.
BotW goes another direction and is imo one of the few, maybe the first even, to have a durability mechanic that actually serves a real purpose. I get that some don't like it, but I personally find it almost revolutionary. Dark Souls for example would be 10x better with a durability mechanic like this, forcing you to actually use more than one weapon with 200 weapons in your inventory gathering dust
I want to keep the uchigatana that shoots wind. It's dropped by the Yiga dudes that attack you out in the wild.
It's purely an aesthetic reason that I want to keep that weapon. It's not even the strongest weapon in the game, or even one of the strongest period, but it's my favorite weapon and I have to lose it all the time because weapons break, and then I have to hope that the next time I get attacked by a Yiga guy it's not the type that wield bows.
Hell yes that was great. I always found that show a bit too weird when I was a kid but the song was awesome.
EDIT: Oh god, I'm falling down the Youtube hole of early 90's cartoon songs. Send help.
I mean, is there any other way to see it? that's the basic premise of the game. sure, Zelda is a fantasy adventure game. Breath of the Wild specifically is a fantasy adventure taking place in a semi-post apocalyptic setting (hyrule devastated by calamity ganon 100 years ago) with some survival elements thrown in. so while being a fantasy adventure game it's still the type of game that you previously deemed a good fit for weapon degradation systems.
Tarextherex
Banned
No save transfer, basically exact same version
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I've finished the game and haven't found that to be the case at all. The best weapons I found were mostly from chests in shrines, fights in shrine and from fighting a specific late-game rare mob.
Night Angel
Member
I'm playing the game. I've gotten 20 shrines or thereabouts, so not terribly far.
I am constantly fucking around in menus to throw out shit weapons. I'm also breaking weapons after a few enemies. Even the better ones can only take 20 swings or so (1 guardian enemy).
Also I hate the stamina system. Running for 7 seconds and getting tired is idiotic.
I'd still give it an 8 or so, but damn, the idea that no one can find the same problems with the game is ludicrous.
AzureFlame
Member
but how about making the repairing costs alot of rupees depending on how strong the weapons is? that way people won't simply go back every time and repair their fav weapons and use it again, they will think about the next time they are using their favorite weapons and when, instead of having it auto breaking soo quick and go all the way trying to find another same weapon, it's just another option with equal cost that will not ruin anything, it will just make you feel better and more immersed.
Strong weapon broke? you can keep it but not use it till you pay ALOT of rupees to get it fixed OR go find another same weapon with new durability, your choice.
just Don't auto break, be unusable and if i want to break it I'll just throw it at the enemies.
It's very easy to make it look like a terrible system with one liners taken out of context, while it takes several paragraphs to explain the brilliance of it in the same way it's much harder to understand why paying more taxes is actually benefitial to you in the long run. Some people just don't get it.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Man, those that dislike or hate Nintendo must have truly had a field day towards the content Jim churned out lately, hahaha.
Finally, something to halt the waves of positivity--especially towards BoTW--somewhat, eh?
Finally, something to halt the waves of positivity--especially towards BoTW--somewhat, eh?
Gunslinger
Member
Are Nintendo fanboys the most insecure of all gaming fanboys? I can't think of another.
I mean I guess I don't know why you're picking up trash weapons only to toss them without using them. And those mini guardians you're killing are dropping weapons themselves.
As far as stamina, I don't know. I felt constrained by it too in the early game. But that meant that I only ever used orbs for stamina until I had a lot of it. You could have a whole extra stamina wheel by now with those 20 shrines.
pizzaparty
Member
Thoughtful comment, thanks for sharing.
Parapraxis
Member
There are about 5 weapons out of 10+ slots that I have not touched, and have not touched for several hours. lol Amazing when he said he was glad to find 100 rupees rather than a weapon, I also have felt this exact weird moment of relief.
And I agree with his score, it's a 7/10 for me for a bunch of reasons,
And I agree with his score, it's a 7/10 for me for a bunch of reasons,
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Just watched the video. I've been in the dark about Breath of the Wild as I've only seen the trailer for it. Wow, I had no idea the weapon durability system was that extreme.
It seems very stupid, but I haven't played the game, so I will judge it when I play it later.
Street Fighter V fanboys.
It seems very stupid, but I haven't played the game, so I will judge it when I play it later.
Street Fighter V fanboys.
He makes a point that "forced" variety is not really actual variety. Variety is actually being able to approach a game, or certain situations in different ways without the game essentially telling you that's the wrong way to play. Variety is when the same game allows you to go through the game belting the shit out of enemies with the same weapon or going nuts with switching back and forth between a multitude of weapons and instruments. Basically, there are far more enjoyable, positive ways of drawing attention to the variety your game offers without the interruptive, repetitive weapon durability that BOTW applies..
It's not about what you see when you at Zelda though, it's about what Breath of the Wild wants to achieve. The game wants you to be in a situation in which your resources, of any kind, are limited. It's basically the design goal of all the experience. Weapons, arrows, food, stamina. You name it. BotW wants you to "make do" with what you have and try to resolve the situation in front of you in the most efficient way possible. That's why going around killing everything that moves is not really the best idea: you might come out on top or you might lose precious resources. The rune system is infinite exactly because the game wants you to experiment with them, set up traps, engage the system. They are the best way to solve conflicts and they require lateral thiking from the player. If you remove the durability system (which of course is not perfect and could be tweaked a bit) you lose that fundamental aspects of the whole game, you most likely would resolve every situation hacking away and killing everything in the mst boring way possible. It's not a nuance, it's centrl to the experience. Removing it would be like having infinite bullets in classis Resident Evil games.
I'm not saying it can't be tweaked and improved, but removing it entirely would simply bring down the whole experience as it was designed.
It's clearly not a system put in place for variety sake or for forcing you to master different movests: the movests are simple and there are like 6-7 weapon types at most. It requires a basic understanding of how each weapon types work at most. The durability system has a completely different goal.
Souls drones come pretty close I think.
pizzaparty
Member
Like using Magnesis on a metal box and smashing enemies.
Like throwing a bomb and destroying explosive barrels to blow up enemies.
Like waiting until night and stealing enemy weapons without starting combat.
whalleywhat
Member
'Them' who?
Do you actually consider any game to have a degree of freedom? Or do you just always complain about gravity and collision and stuff?
Gamers:
"I'm so sick of all these game reviewers following the crowd and giving mediocre games like Final Fantasy XV such high scores! They should be brave and stand out from the crowd."
....
"OMG! WTF!!!!! 7/10 for Breath of the Wild!?!?! EIFUJEWUPFIEWHIUHWIUHWIUFHWIFUPWHUFIWHIUFPHWIUH!!!"
"I'm so sick of all these game reviewers following the crowd and giving mediocre games like Final Fantasy XV such high scores! They should be brave and stand out from the crowd."
....
"OMG! WTF!!!!! 7/10 for Breath of the Wild!?!?! EIFUJEWUPFIEWHIUHWIUHWIUFHWIFUPWHUFIWHIUFPHWIUH!!!"
pizzaparty
Member
I'd give it an 8 for different reasons, namely that you can't use your sheikah sensor to locate koroks, the dungeons are really disappointing, the bosses aren't very hard or varied, and I wish there was greater enemy variety. The weapon durability issue goes away later, you get weapons that can do 60+ hits and you get a lot of them.
Parapraxis
Member
So are you implying people are not enraged about the 7/10?
I'm confused as to usage of the supposed strawman you are perceiving. Sure he made generalizations, but strawmen are generally used to undermine an argument (illogically), yet I don't see what argument you are claiming is being strawmanned.
I must not be picking up the same bows as you, mine break at a fairly high frequency.
Yeah, one of the tradeoffs for weapon durability is infinite rune use (with a cooldown timer, but that's practically nothing for upgraded bombs). And bows last forever, with normal arrows easy to come by. The game wants you to use these things.
whalleywhat
Member
That statements from two different people were being made by one person and represented hypocrisy/an error in logic.
I mean, Jim Sterling literally posted pictures of the comments he's received.
Parapraxis
Member
To what end?
Ah, I see, you guys think the 7/10 is not genuine because you perceived Jim as bias. Got it.
ShironRedshift
Member
It really isn't anywhere near as extreme as the video makes it look. It's important to note that the weapons he uses in the video are absolute bottom-tier weapons which you're able to get from absolute scrub tier enemies. You're able to get better stuff than that which doesn't break that often fairly soon into the game. The video's just full of absolute worst case use scenarios which you'll likely already be starting to move on from before you beat your first dungeon, especially since you're heavily restricted in the amount of weapons you can carry in the early game. From there both the quality of weapons and how many your able to hold at once quickly expands, especially if you make that your number one priority.
whalleywhat
Member
To make/win a point on an internet forum? The original poster collated the views of two different people and created a strawman whose argument could easily be disposed of.
I didn't perceive anything. The guy made a strawman argument, and someone else accurately pointed it out. Learn how to argue.
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