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Killzone 3 Beta Details (Starts 10/25, requires PS+, only 10k spots open)

Karram

Member
When I first started playing the Body count I was using a medic and the infiltrators with their shotguns were driving me crazy so I decided to try the infiltrator class and man the shotgun is a beast.

In fact I got into a match where I and another guy where the only guys in the team against a team of 7 and we won the match. I had like a 10 kill streak with the shotgun and 19-9 KD ratio. Also whoever said that who shoots first gets the kill is totally right, but that often happens when using assault rifles.
 

Mooreberg

is sharpening a shovel and digging a ditch
People being able to arm bombs while inside of a mech is ridiculous. :lol

The way it assigns teams illogical too. Half of the matches I go into are 5 v 0. :lol
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Massa said:
After you kill the people protecting a spawn point they'll respawn in the exact same spot 5 seconds later, it becomes impossible to capture it.

The difficulty in taking over a well protected spawn coupled with the size of the maps means people will put too much emphasis in protecting them instead of actually doing the objectives. It absolutely ruins Warzone.

Yes, you're sort of right. Except capturing spawn points isn't very hard if you're an advanced tactician and therefore capture it fast. Also well-timed frag grenade and shot in the back of spawning people do wonders. But yes, holding and capturing spawn points takes time from doing objectives. But if you've one or two dedicated people on the team it's not that hard and you'll have such advantage on the other team so it's worth it. And it's actually very fun as it is an objective in itself.

Mooreberg said:
People being able to arm bombs while inside of a mech is ridiculous. :lol

The way it assigns teams illogical too. Half of the matches I go into are 5 v 0. :lol

yes, that's ridiculous.
 
jett said:
Because it's not enjoyable at all with the minuscule amount of health you have, you have no fighting chance, you'll die quite literally in a fraction of a second. It doesn't matter if you have armor on, or extra health on, that's how shitty the health is. Because of the low health a lot of the time the games devolve into straight camping. It's just an unbearably annoying game to play that requires little to no aiming skill when spraying bullets like spaz does the job just fine, I cannot fathom someone actually thinking the health is perfect after having put some real time into the game first.

Your opinion. I like the health system much more in KZ3 than in KZ2. I enjoy games with extremely low health above anything else and this settings is perfect for my taste.

Anyway, I'd like to add some more fixes to my list.

- Sprint duration needs fixing (at least 33% increase).

- FPS needs fixing.

- MLAA needs fixing.

- Brutal melee animation needs to be shortened.

- Medic needs to have the ability to revive players even when they enter cooldown state prior to a respawn.

- Medic bot needs to have decrease damage, slightly increased accuracy and heavily decreased range. Also, fixes need to be made in order to stop the usual bot interference to the player's POV when the player makes a 180 degrees turn.

- Medic with the ability to respawn after dieing needs to respawn with the amount of ammo and grenades he had PRIOR to getting killed. Full re-ammo doesn't make sense.

- Proximity mines need to have some kind of markers to indicate their presence.

- Infiltrator disguise is really imba. Needs fixing.

- Matchmaking shouldn't create games with 1 or 2 players logged in.

- Mechs need damage reduction.

- Don't allow players to capture enemy's mechs in their bases.

- Flying robots need HEAVY damage reduction.

- Proximity chat quality really needs improvements. I can barely hear and understand what people are saying.

- Warzone needs heavy point increase when completing objectives. BC2 Rush teamwork has been greatly improved after the patch that increased the point allocation of destroying an objective to 250 points.

I've only played with medic until know, so I'll update and repost this list when I get a chance to try out other classes. Regarding features, I'd really like presence data and cross game invites. Has any dev talked about why these features aren't in EVERY multiplayer game since they were implemented into the SDK? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
 

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
dralla said:
You can't spawn on the squad leader?
Nope they removed it. You can only spawn at the base or at any tactical spawn points captured by your team.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
I'm really hoping it's just a bug. Warzone is absolutely ruined with no spawn on squad leader (among tons of other things).
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
Killthee said:
Nope they removed it. You can only spawn at the base or at any tactical spawn points captured by your team.

I was wondering about that. Spawning on squad leaders kept KZ2 fast so I don't know why they got rid of it. Their spawning system isn't too great either. :\
 

dralla

Member
yea, this kinda sucks. spawn system is really bad, health too low, overpowered abilities. I will likely stick with BC2 unless they make some drastic changes.

I also hate how you can't remap buttons. I don't like clicking in L3 on the DS3, it's very shitty
 

Dug

Banned
alr1ghtstart said:
try this
http://beta.community.killzone.com/

their website coding is garbage though, so it may not be your fault. It works fine on firefox.
Tried that, still didn't work. I'm going to try the Steam web browser and see if it will work on that.

EDIT: Nevermind, figured out why I couldn't log in. I remembered I never finished one game on my India account.
 

cryptic

Member
I guess if you never played killone 2 this game might be fun and fresh but having come from that I have to say this game sucks. Everything feels pointless. I feel like I have no control over killing or dying;it all boils down to luck it seems.
The firefights suck because they're decided by who get's the first hit which is a matter of where you spawn, how patient you are with camping,etc. or you're guaranteed a few kills if you get a mech but watch for the shitty level design as getting stock on a two foot barricade will do you in. I also had to turn the recoil all the way down but still there's just no weight to the guns. I think I preferred the distinct feel of the guns in killzone 1 to this.

Can anyone else see a madman new recruit tearing design notes and shit off the walls in a board meeting discussing the vision for this game, knocking the smiles off the faces of all the previous games developers as he slams a briefcase on the table, ejaculating various call of duty paraphernalia all over their faces? I have to imagine it went down like that.On the bright side, I still can have a ton of fun with killzone 2 until the next big thing comes out.
 
cryptic said:
Can anyone else see a madman new recruit tearing design notes and shit off the walls in a board meeting discussing the vision for this game, knocking the smiles off the faces of all the previous games developers as he slams a briefcase on the table, ejaculating various call of duty paraphernalia all over their faces? I have to imagine it went down like that.On the bright side, I still can have a ton of fun with killzone 2 until the next big thing comes out.
It's funny, I thought the same thing earlier today. I wonder how the whole team feels about these changes. Would love to be a fly on the wall in the next meeting. Hermen needs to throw some sharp elbows around that building. I have a shred of hope that it will turn out enjoyable, won't live up to KZ2 but I've accepted that and will just keep watch from a distance.
 

Equus Bellator Apex

Junior Member
dralla said:
yea, this kinda sucks. spawn system is really bad, health too low, overpowered abilities. I will likely stick with BC2 unless they make some drastic changes.

I also hate how you can't remap buttons. I don't like clicking in L3 on the DS3, it's very shitty
you switch to bro style cod controls in the menu.
 

JB1981

Member
For those who have been in the beta. What did the patch do and has there been more than one patch?

Has GG taken an active role in taking feedback from the community? Have they been open about what they wanted this beta to accomplish? I understand that beta's by their very nature are going to be rough around the edges, but this smacks of amateur hour to me.

Presentation aside, I feel like this whole thing was cobbled together last minute without any overarching reason for it to exist.

How can you balance a game when the matchmaking system can't even balance teams? How you can balance perks if tweaks to said perks (spot and mark) are never patched and released for real-world testing? I sincerely hope that they delay this game and go back to the drawing board in a lot of areas. If GG wants to capture the COD audience, they will have enormous shoes to fill. Even with the problems that plague BLOPS in its current state, they are TRIVIAL compared to the issues this game has.

Why is the framerate here so fucking shitty? Seriously if there is too much going on in the MP engine, scale the fucker back! Leave the pretty graphics for the SP, just make my multiplayer experience smooth as butter! Is that so hard to prioritize? I actually think that buried beneath all the shit there is a good game to be played here. I still like a lot about it. I think GG designs pretty good maps. I love using the Marskman rifle. Firing that weapon never gets old. I actually like the new controls for the most part. I love the new jetpacks, they are a blast to use. I love the Killzone aesthetic and I am liking the pace of the gameplay in smaller matches. I think the mechs are a cool addition but overpowered. I just wish the framerate would hold up so I could actually enjoy the world around me and drink in the visuals more. I wish I could line up long distance shots with precision but the framerate is so poor it won't let me. I really hope this game shapes up. I fear if it doesn't there won't be much longevity to this franchise.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
JB1981 said:
For those who have been in the beta. What did the patch do and has there been more than one patch?

Has GG taken an active role in taking feedback from the community? Have they been open about what they wanted this beta to accomplish? I understand that beta's by their very nature are going to be rough around the edges, but this smacks of amateur hour to me.

Presentation aside, I feel like this whole thing was cobbled together last minute without any overarching reason for it to exist.

How can you balance a game when the matchmaking system can't even balance teams? How you can balance perks if tweaks to said perks (spot and mark) are never patched and released for real-world testing? I sincerely hope that they delay this game and go back to the drawing board in a lot of areas. If GG wants to capture the COD audience, they will have enormous shoes to fill. Even with the problems that plague BLOPS in its current state, they are TRIVIAL compared to the issues this game has.

Why is the framerate here so fucking shitty? Seriously if there is too much going on in the MP engine, scale the fucker back! Leave the pretty graphics for the SP, just make my multiplayer experience smooth as butter! Is that so hard to prioritize? I actually think that buried beneath all the shit there is a good game to be played here. I still like a lot about it. I think GG designs pretty good maps. I love using the Marskman rifle. Firing that weapon never gets old. I actually like the new controls for the most part. I love the new jetpacks, they are a blast to use. I love the Killzone aesthetic and I am liking the pace of the gameplay in smaller matches. I think the mechs are a cool addition but overpowered. I just wish the framerate would hold up so I could actually enjoy the world around me and drink in the visuals more. I wish I could line up long distance shots with precision but the framerate is so poor it won't let me. I really hope this game shapes up. I fear if it doesn't there won't be much longevity to this franchise.

The patch apparently added a tiny bit of recoil (but to hip fire, no ADS which is what was wanted). That's it. Their support for the beta has been abysmal.
 

-viper-

Banned
subversus said:
so much bullshit in this post that it drips from my monitor.
What the hell are you on about?

It's very difficult to hold R1 whilst ADS and kill someone from a distance in Black Ops. The recoil on some of the weapons such as AK47, Commando and MP5K is pretty evident. You HAVE to fire in bursts.

Now ADS and shoot with guns like the SMG and the M82? :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw0szy_EPEw

Reduced player health in KZ3 feels terrible. It promotes camping and eliminates what made the original game great - the intense 1v1 firefights. It was about your movement, ability to control the recoil and how well you could aim.

Now it's just a fucking twitch shooter. Shoot first and you get the kill.
 

JB1981

Member
Facism said:
apparently the beta wont be patched again. Makes the impact of any feedback a little useless.

Maybe the most half-assed beta this generation? It's almost like they just couldn't be bothered.
 

-viper-

Banned
TEH-CJ said:
Joo guys are crazy mang. frame rate aside, the game is fricken awesome

haters gona hate.
nothing great in killzone 2 has been passed onto killzone 3.

now it feels like a poor attempt at a COD clone. and why bother buying the inferior product when I already have Black Ops?

i tried playing the game earlier and it simply wouldn't connect to MP. I guess no one is playing this beta.
 

jett

D-Member
JB1981 said:
Maybe the most half-assed beta this generation? It's almost like they just couldn't be bothered.

Definitely the shittiest beta I've played. By far. Which is really sad because the KZ2 beta was FUCK AWESOME.
 
Lots of harsh words in this thread, most coming off a little too extreme.

I played a good amount of KZ2, and while I understand where a lot of the hardcore fans are coming from, I don't think this game is going to turn out to be 'abysmal' or 'disastrous.' Rhetoric like that kills someone's entire argument as it just makes them look like bitter, overly-hurt fanboys.

It also seems like many people here are liking the changes. And while, yes, the game has been 'CoD-ified,' there is definitely still a very heavy KZ2 feel to everything. Not exact, but definitely comparable. There is still weight to your movement, more so than any other FPS out there, and hip-firing is still the preferable way to play.

I'm sure changes will be made by the time the game comes out. Such as health tweaks and a few other things that people are talking about. Everyone should come down, and realize that your first reaction is often your most emotional.
 

JB1981

Member
CartridgeBlower said:
Lots of harsh words in this thread, most coming off a little too extreme.

I played a good amount of KZ2, and while I understand where a lot of the hardcore fans are coming from, I don't think this game is going to turn out to be 'abysmal' or 'disastrous.' Rhetoric like that kills someone's entire argument as it just makes them look like bitter, overly-hurt fanboys.

It also seems like many people here are liking the changes. And while, yes, the game has been 'CoD-ified,' there is definitely still a very heavy KZ2 feel to everything. Not exact, but definitely comparable. There is still weight to your movement, more so than any other FPS out there, and hip-firing is still the preferable way to play.

I'm sure changes will be made by the time the game comes out. Such as health tweaks and a few other things that people are talking about. Everyone should come down, and realize that your first reaction is often your most emotional.

The main thrust of the criticism is not about control changes (which are pretty severe) but fundamental design decisions that leave one feeling dumbfounded and lacking any and all confidence in GG's ability to make a sound and balanced game. Its like their priorities are completely upside down. Their lack of involvement with the beta is also pretty troubling and leads one to believe that they could hardly give a fuck about what their fanbase thinks of the game.
 
TEH-CJ said:
Joo guys are crazy mang. frame rate aside, the game is fricken awesome

haters gona hate.

I really don't know who to believe; the guys who loved Killzone 2 and have articulated in detail what is wrong with the KZ3 beta or the ones who don't actually say what makes it good, nevermind better than KZ2 (outside of controls) and spout retarded cliches like "haters gona hate".
 
CartridgeBlower said:
hip-firing is still the preferable way to play.

So there was a new patch which changed the way you play the game? I haven't bothered with the Beta in a few weeks, but if you can use hip fire now as the preferred method I should fire it back up. Last I played, ADS gave you near pinpoint aim with no real performance cost.
 

KZObsessed

Member
Had some decent-ish games today. Most fun I've had in this game is in the Operations mode. A single player can really feel significant in terms of the outcome of the game and there's actually some teamwork that goes on *shock horror*

Had some great moments in Warzone too. Managed to turn a 3-2 defeat where we had no spawn areas into a 4-3 victory. Captured one from the enemy so we could plant at S&D then took out a Mech & 2 diffusers with one rocket. Epic. Then I took out the assassination target & two bodyguards for the win.

The other night with userfriendly it was 3-3 and I took a Mech and took out the Assassination target in his mech, while he had 3 bodyguards and a couple of turrets. Just managed to fire off a rocket jus before I died. There was only a few seconds left as well. Amazing "hollywood" style finale.

Brutal melee is really PISSING me off. Half the time they're facing another direction when they get me. And the Infiltrator's speed is an absolute joke.


Lince said:
I believe SCEE sent Guerrilla the funds for Move & 3D and forgot about multiplayer, KZ3 mp should have never happened.

oh come on Lince you know better than that :p
 

KZObsessed

Member
JB1981 said:
The main thrust of the criticism is not about control changes (which are pretty severe) but fundamental design decisions that leave one feeling dumbfounded and lacking any and all confidence in GG's ability to make a sound and balanced game. Its like their priorities are completely upside down. Their lack of involvement with the beta is also pretty troubling and leads one to believe that they could hardly give a fuck about what their fanbase thinks of the game.

You downloaded the Beta yesterday, have you even been to the Beta forums yet? The forums are incredibly unorganised which the Beta co-ordinator and the devs have tried to rectify in the latter stages with fairly minimal results but it's something. Since the private Beta stage we've had communication with at least 5 Guerrilla Games devs. Some of which have posted there over 100 times with feedback, answering questions and keeping us up to date with changes that have already been or are going to be implemented in newer builds. The level of communication between devs and Beta testers has been higher here than any other Beta I've been in including the KZ2 Beta where we had next to nothing, which left us with the gamebreaking spawn
invincibility at launch.

What GG need is a full time community leader of jstevenson's calibre and I dont understand why they dont have anyone yet.
 
KZObsessed said:
You downloaded the Beta yesterday, have you even been to the Beta forums yet? The forums are incredibly unorganised which the Beta co-ordinator and the devs have tried to rectify in the latter stages with fairly minimal results but it's something. Since the private Beta stage we've had communication with at least 5 Guerrilla Games devs. Some of which have posted there over 100 times with feedback, answering questions and keeping us up to date with changes that have already been or are going to be implemented in newer builds. The level of communication between devs and Beta testers has been higher here than any other Beta I've been in including the KZ2 Beta where we had next to nothing, which left us with the gamebreaking spawn
invincibility at launch.

What GG need is a full time community leader of jstevenson's calibre and I dont understand why they dont have anyone yet.
I thought Seb filled that role?
 

JB1981

Member
KZObsessed said:
You downloaded the Beta yesterday, have you even been to the Beta forums yet? The forums are incredibly unorganised which the Beta co-ordinator and the devs have tried to rectify in the latter stages with fairly minimal results but it's something. Since the private Beta stage we've had communication with at least 5 Guerrilla Games devs. Some of which have posted there over 100 times with feedback, answering questions and keeping us up to date with changes that have already been or are going to be implemented in newer builds. The level of communication between devs and Beta testers has been higher here than any other Beta I've been in including the KZ2 Beta where we had next to nothing, which left us with the gamebreaking spawn
invincibility at launch.

What GG need is a full time community leader of jstevenson's calibre and I dont understand why they dont have anyone yet.


That is really good to hear. What is the link for the beta forums?
 

dorkimoe

Gold Member
just browsing through the thread, havent ran into any mechs yet cuz ive only done the team deathmatch snow map.

So they are over powered i see?
 

dorkimoe

Gold Member
-viper- said:
nothing great in killzone 2 has been passed onto killzone 3.

now it feels like a poor attempt at a COD clone. and why bother buying the inferior product when I already have Black Ops?

i tried playing the game earlier and it simply wouldn't connect to MP. I guess no one is playing this beta.

killzone will never be inferior to black ops's over done stale ass multiplayer
 

GodofWine

Member
I think the game works fine technically (match making aside), but I hate HATE these maps design / color palettes...its just really hard to see people.

Still undecided on the game, the difference in recoil from the hip to ADS is so great that it kinda throws me off when switching back and forth.

Frame rate has given me no issues, but I have yet to actually reach a clusterF cause I usually get killed by a camper I never even saw (due to the colors used in the maps).

I think this will be a really cool game to 'describe to people', but right now it just seems like it will do what 2 did, have a community go from 500,000+ weekly, to 30,000 weekly in short time.

Saw FFO in a game, I was getting owned by infiltrators (stupid class, thought the same in KZ2), thought he was an enemy in disguise, and tried like hell to kill him...he was indeed not an enemy.
 

Zen

Banned
user friendly said:
It's funny, I thought the same thing earlier today. I wonder how the whole team feels about these changes. Would love to be a fly on the wall in the next meeting. Hermen needs to throw some sharp elbows around that building. I have a shred of hope that it will turn out enjoyable, won't live up to KZ2 but I've accepted that and will just keep watch from a distance.

Honestly I'm still waiting for Killzone 2 to live up to Killzone 2. If feels like Killzone 3 just shuffled around their problems into new categories. The weird thing is that I think they could have built a much more MP enjoyable game by at least using Killzone 2 as the base, but with things like the massively improved netcode and controller lag from Killzone 3 along with the new classes. Not that it necessarily should have had recoil and spread exactly like Killzone 2, but something closer to than that what we have now (while still keeping the lag free input, and more responsive aiming) would probably work out very well.

I'd love to play a Killzone 2 with all the aiming, control response, netcode, class improvements of Killzone 3.

The biggest problem with Killzone 3 is actually the map design. It feels like the entire concept of choke points has completely been abandoned, as every area seems specifically built to have at least 6 spots where another person can cheaply kill you from (more often than not from across the map).

Remember how in Killzone 2 they designed most of their maps around game sizes smaller than 32 player, only to make every map 32 players? It feels like almost the other way around for Killzone 3 (Specifically the highway level), in that they made the maps even bigger than they use to be, and then killed the player count. The maps seem purposefully designed to encourage cheap kills, unfortunately.

They need to bring back 'spawn on squad leader', or a 'spawn on tactician' or something. Because as it stands, the game lacks a feeling of flow to it, and everyone ends up respawning at their base and having back to the objective every time.

I'd almost say that Spawn grenades should come back, but remove the 'you spawn facing the other direction from the player that threw it' element that needlessly confused the players.

I also wouldn't mind if they put in a PROXIMITY RESTRICTION for spawn grenades relative to objectives.

None of this will happen, however, because I don't think they're going to abandon their current implementation of spawn points.

it's also really hard to see people in this game, not only because of the color palette, but because they're dramatically toned down the over exaggerated lighting. In Killzone 2 multiplayer you could see the light color of an opponent almost the enter way across the map. With Killzone 3 I'm frequently being shot and I can't really make out the enemy. You just sort of aim for the muzzle flash and pray.

I hope that the MLAA improves in the final release because I really preferred the old Killzone 2 AA. Sure the very edges of objects are incredibly smooth now, but anything within the space of the object itself has an incredible amount of sub pixel aliasing. To the point that I feel like the overall image quality is actually worse than the original. It actually ends up obscuring the overall detail onscreen, when coupled with the much higher color values.

Killzone 2, while by no means perfect, was unique, and Guerilla has shown a ton of promise in their transition from Killzone 1-2, but in the process of responding to the criticisms of Killzone 2 they seem to be partially abandoning the more unique aspects. It feels like a Resistance 2 style white washing to homogenize with the Call of Duty market.

Fingers crossed that the final product shows improvement. That doesn't mean Killzone 2-2, but there's still a lot to be fixed here.
 

KZObsessed

Member
JB1981 said:
That is really good to hear. What is the link for the beta forums?

I believe joe posted the link on last page edit: this page actually just above (posting from PS3 so can't provide the link)

They were most active during private phase but still posted a fair bit initially when the Beta went "public." The sheer amount of threads beeing created, many of which are repeat impressions/feedback you cant expect them to reply to all of them. They do have work to do afterall. I have seen them respond in threads which cover pretty much all the major tweaks that are needed in the game. Them having heard what needs to be changed is not in any way a concern to me, they definitely have. My main concern is time. There are a lot of necessary tweaks and only a couple of months left and a whole lot of polish needed. (Tho we obviously havnt seen latest build.)

They have a ton of great feedback, everything they need and it's all down to them now. I will say the lead designer in particular has done an excellent job communicating with Beta testers. And most certainly gives a damn.
 

KZObsessed

Member
Whoever mentioned reading the tutorials on Beta site cheers. They list new weapon lay outs.

Tact now starts with a silenced SMG and gets M82 instead of StA-14
Medic gets a silenced M82 now... yep.
Engineer seems to get an entirely different SMG.
Marksman gets the StA-52 Assault Rifle instead of SMG.
Infiltrator I think is the same. edit: nope the StA-52 is silenced!

Interesting. Tactician with M82 thank god :D
 

JardeL

Member
I will say the lead designer in particular has done an excellent job communicating with Beta testers. And most certainly gives a damn.
9ZrAh.jpg
 
KZObsessed said:
Whoever mentioned reading the tutorials on Beta site cheers. They list new weapon lay outs.

Tact now starts with a silenced SMG and gets M82 instead of StA-14
Medic gets a silenced M82 now... yep.
Engineer seems to get an entirely different SMG.
Marksman gets the StA-52 Assault Rifle instead of SMG.
Infiltrator I think is the same. edit: nope the StA-52 is silenced!

Interesting. Tactician with M82 thank god :D
YYYYYYEEEEEEEESSSSSS.

The M82 and StA-52 were painfully absent in the beta so far. Using the M82 as a Tact and possibly the StA with other classes is great. I never play Medic, and it annoyed me they were the only class with a decent assault rifle.

I haven't been to the beta forums in awhile, but I clearly need to go back. :D
 
KZObsessed said:
Whoever mentioned reading the tutorials on Beta site cheers. They list new weapon lay outs.

Tact now starts with a silenced SMG and gets M82 instead of StA-14
Medic gets a silenced M82 now... yep.
Engineer seems to get an entirely different SMG.
Marksman gets the StA-52 Assault Rifle instead of SMG.
Infiltrator I think is the same. edit: nope the StA-52 is silenced!

Interesting. Tactician with M82 thank god :D
Awesome.
 

dwin45

Member
KZObsessed said:
Whoever mentioned reading the tutorials on Beta site cheers. They list new weapon lay outs.

Tact now starts with a silenced SMG and gets M82 instead of StA-14
Medic gets a silenced M82 now... yep.
Engineer seems to get an entirely different SMG.
Marksman gets the StA-52 Assault Rifle instead of SMG.
Infiltrator I think is the same. edit: nope the StA-52 is silenced!

Interesting. Tactician with M82 thank god :D
Can you link to this exact thread? I can't see it on there.
 
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