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[Alx]

Natal has to recalibrate and rescan someone, how quick is that going to be? Is it even going to have prompts for that kinda thing in between rounds of something like a turn in Mario Party?

Most of the games don't need any calibration, they did as much as they can to allow for the "jump in and play" aspect. Exactly like in the demo of Adventures, where the second guy could join the first one in the middle of a game, just by getting in the field of view of the camera.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Most of the games don't need any calibration, they did as much as they can to allow for the "jump in and play" aspect. Exactly like in the demo of Adventures, where the second guy could join the first one in the middle of a game, just by getting in the field of view of the camera.

Yeah, Here's an example.

I think the 4 players simultaneously thing is being over exaggerated as a major issue. 99% of Wii games don't support 4 player simultaneous play. I think only 1 of the games on Wii Sports Resort supports it, Canoeing. The vast majority are either 2 player, or 4 player with 1 at a time taking turns. As someone that has played a lot of Wii casual titles at parties, I can't remember ever playing with 4 people at once.

But I think with regards to it taking up too much CPU to track 4 people, I'd imagine that's for full body tracking. With the examples of using hands as a quiz buzzer, or even driving as car, that shouldn't put quite as much strain on the 360.

 

[Raistlin]

Well, I was wondering what the limit would be ... guess 2 it is :lol






This is really turning into a travesty. The reality is the original tech likely supported more (and could have probably been updated to support sitting people, or at least do it more reliably), but that was with using a dedicated co-processor to run the detection and tracking algorithms.

Obviously that proved to be far too expensive if they are pricing this at $150 for what amounts to a glorified camera. It's starting to look like instead of cutting their losses, they decided to launch with a gimped peripheral. The tech just isn't cost-effective in the form they originally envisioned, so they're going with its red-headed step-child instead.

Granted, they could run the full suite of algorithms that were meant for the co-processor on the 360, but it would crush gaming performance.

 

[manueldelalas]

Yeah, Here's an example.

I think the 4 players simultaneously thing is being over exaggerated as a major issue. 99% of Wii games don't support 4 player simultaneous play. I think only 1 of the games on Wii Sports Resort supports it, Canoeing. The vast majority are either 2 player, or 4 player with 1 at a time taking turns. As someone that has played a lot of Wii casual titles at parties, I can't remember ever playing with 4 people at once.

But I think with regards to it taking up too much CPU to track 4 people, I'd imagine that's for full body tracking. With the examples of using hands as a quiz buzzer, or even driving as car, that shouldn't put quite as much strain on the 360.

HURRR

 

[Alx]

This is really turning into a travesty. The reality is the original tech likely supported more (and could have probably been updated to support sitting people, or at least do it more reliably), but that was with using a dedicated co-processor to run the detection and tracking algorithms.

People keep bringing this co-processor story as it were a magical omnipotent thing, but do you really think that this processor was more powerful than a 360 CPU ? Do you think that whatever tracking algorithms that would have run on it couldn't run on the console itself ?

The truth is at no moment have we seen any demo using this famous "co-processor".
And that's why manufacturers should limit their communication on technical details. Talk about internal components, memory and processors, and over-excited gamers will exaggerate it one way or another.

 

[Ghost]

Yes but there is a big difference there, one you just hand someone a remote it takes all of a couple seconds and then everyone is having a good time again. Natal has to recalibrate and rescan someone, how quick is that going to be? Is it even going to have prompts for that kinda thing in between rounds of something like a turn in Mario Party?

Well Im sure it will come down to individual games implementations, but the way I understood it Kinect can recognise you, so I guess before games start they will ask who's playing, which player is which ("Player 1 wave now, player 2 wave now", or something less lame), then there's no equivalent of passing the controller, the game just asks you to stand up and it can tell which person on camera is you through facial recognition and through its memory of what your body looks like.

 

[PoliceCop]

I got to admit it's getting better, a little better all the time.

 

[ITA84]

People keep bringing this co-processor story as it were a magical omnipotent thing, but do you really think that this processor was more powerful than a 360 CPU ?

Certainly not more powerful than the X360 CPU, but probably more poweful than 15-20% of that.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

HURRR

Well, that may have been a bit hyperbolic, but I'm sure the percentage is high. Thinking about it more, I think I might have played 4 player during a Rayman game at some point, and there are of course games like Super Smash Bros and Mario Kart which I wasn't taking into consideration (because they barely use motion, and aren't quite so casual focused as the Kinect titles and the likes of Wii Sports).

 

[Hypereides]

I got to admit it's getting better, a little better all the time.

Were you seriously not allowed any cameras at the Cirque du soleil event?

Cause thats enough to be suspicious.

 

[Medalion]

Kinect doesn't like sitting, short people, fat people, black people, lazy people...

Kinect is fourth reich confirmed.

 

[Alx]

Certainly not more powerful than the X360 CPU, but probably more poweful than 15-20% of that.

Well I highly doubt it... embedded hardware usually suffers from more constraints than general-purpose CPU, and they are the less versatile ones. Actually it's more frequent to hear things like "we could track 4 targets before, but now it's only 2" when you go from CPU to embedded, than the other way round.

 

[CoG]

Were you seriously not allowed any cameras at the Cirque du soleil event?

Cause thats enough to be suspicious.

Not really. Everyone already knew it was staged. Filming probably violated some contractual agreement with MTV being they were airing it.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Were you seriously not allowed any cameras at the Cirque du soleil event?

Cause thats enough to be suspicious.

No, because it was aired on MTV at a later date and they didn't want us to find out the Kinect games until the conference the following day. It was a stage show, it wasn't designed as a tech demonstration. There is nothing to be suspicious of because every game shown (at the Cirque event and Microsoft's press conference) aside from the Star Wars game have been played and demonstrated on video by virtually every major gaming site on the net, and thousands of gamers on the show floor. They weren't, for the most part, played live simply to avoid embarrassing fuck up's like last years "BAM" moment and the Zelda demonstration. It makes no sense to think that Microsoft were hiding something, given that they put the same games in the hands of the press and in front of hundreds of cameras hours later.

 

[Karma]

but two players max isn't a "hardcore complaint", it's a real limitation that will put off a lot of their target demographic. It's already bad enough that they're entering the Wii's playground with a flagship model that costs at least twice the price of the leading competitor, but this is going to make a lot of families think twice about picking up Kinect.

Why? The amount of people playing with 4 Wiimotes at the same time has got to be really small.

 

[DeadGzuz]

Did anyone ever think Kinect or any other camera system would follow four adults at once? That seems like too many people for the field of view, you cannot have people overlapping as the spazz.

 

[cgcg]

Damn this train wreck is still in motion?

 

[PoliceCop]

Were you seriously not allowed any cameras at the Cirque du soleil event?

Cause thats enough to be suspicious.

I think that had more to do with a Cirque de Soleil policy than an evil Microsoft plot. They didn't want cameras flashing and messing up their light show.

 

[manueldelalas]

Well, that may have been a bit hyperbolic, but I'm sure the percentage is high. Thinking about it more, I think I might have played 4 player during a Rayman game at some point, and there are of course games like Super Smash Bros and Mario Kart which I wasn't taking into consideration (because they barely use motion, and aren't quite so casual focused as the Kinect titles and the likes of Wii Sports).

The Wii has absolutely no problem with four player motion games. End of point.

 

[Vizion28]

I'm so eager to see if Kinect will be a retail failure or success more so than any video game product.

It's true Gaf and core gamers in general are pretty bad at predicting what will be successful or not. I mean how many core gamers thought Wii was a fad or gimmick even after 2 years it was selling like hotcakes? That's how badly they are out of touch with what people want. They are so narrowminded they can't fathom people liking something outside of their narrow tastes.


I know yesterday the Kinect was ranked 2 on Amazon even though the price was listed @ $150.

I'm leaning towards it being a moderate success but not because Gaf thinks it will fail for that would be a logical fallacy.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

The Wii has absolutely no problem with four player motion games. End of point.

My point wasn't that it has a problem with it. My point was that most casual players of Kinect won't care or miss it, because most of their multiplayer time spent on the Wii is either with 2 people or taking turns. So let's not pretend that it's a huge feature incorporated into all major casual Wii games that they'll massively miss. I don't think 90% of the Kinect audience will even think about it.

 

[TheOddOne]

The Wii has absolutely no problem with four player motion games. End of point.

I think his point was not that Wii is not capable of 4 player games. He was questioning how many games actually use that function.

 

[Corto]

This actually explains the long waiting lines.

 

[Raistlin]

People keep bringing this co-processor story as it were a magical omnipotent thing, but do you really think that this processor was more powerful than a 360 CPU ?

Where was that implied?

Do you think that whatever tracking algorithms that would have run on it couldn't run on the console itself ?

No, the problem is the 360 CPU is used for other things ... like actually running games. There is a limited amount of resources they are willing to dedicate to Kinect, and that MUST be a known, fixed maximum so developers can write games using it.

So the question is, are they willing to use as many resources as are necessary to run the same detection and tracking algorithms they would have used had this incorporated a co-processor? The logical answer is no, they had to pair it down.

The truth is at no moment have we seen any demo using this famous "co-processor".
And that's why manufacturers should limit their communication on technical details. Talk about internal components, memory and processors, and over-excited gamers will exaggerate it one way or another.

I don't see how that matters in this case. The situation isn't simply people wishing it was what was originally intended ... I suspect most of the posters here weren't even aware of it. The problem is people are looking at the actual limitations of the HW being released, and many are not pleased with the results.

I don't see how my discussing the lineage of Kinect is influencing anyone's view of the situation. It seems quite clear people have issues with Kinect all by their lonesome.

 

[phisheep]

My point wasn't that it has a problem with it. My point was that most casual players of Kinect won't care or miss it, because most of their multiplayer time spent on the Wii is either with 2 people or taking turns. So let's not pretend that it's a huge feature incorporated into all major casual Wii games that they'll massively miss. I don't think 90% of the Kinect audience will even think about it.

No, just the biggest hugest selling ones: Wii Sports, Just Dance, Kart, NSMB

 

[Tom Penny]

I'm so eager to see if Kinect will be a retail failure or success more so than any video game product.

I don't know how big it's going to be but it's going to outsell Move by a shitload. The Yoga, dance and fitness games are going to sell the system. Too bad it doesn't appear there will be an core game made.

Can you use objects with natal? Say there is a baseball game can you swing a whiffle ball bat and it sees it?

 

[Haly]

It comes with it, the connection wire pretty much has an adapter to use for either.

That's two power bricks for 4 player.

Imagine the fire hazards.

 

[WrikaWrek]

Not even good enough as a party system.

Market for the platform keeps shrinking. Couches are out, parties are out...

 

[Agent X]

For the moment, there's no ad and there's no commercialized product.
When kinect reaches the market, if some of its features are not available, the ads will probably be changed to match what it does...

For now, all non live videos should be considerd with this disclaimer :

Please, you can't possibly be serious. Just because they put in a brief disclaimer doesn't give them free reign to be deceptive about what the product can do.

They weren't, for the most part, played live simply to avoid embarrassing fuck up's like last years "BAM" moment and the Zelda demonstration.

Gee, that practically screams "confidence", don't you think?

 

[Hypereides]

retracted.

 

[richman555]

I've played alot of 4 player gaming on the Wii and it is simply the best especially for casual players. Alot of people seemed to not like that nunchuck cord that the Wii has, but now we probably can see why it was needed. I think Sony's attempt at motion gaming ins't all that bad (cough cough MS), but I really think they have limited themselves for the sake of being different or trying to appear better. That little cord is NOT as bad as people have made it out to be.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

Well what if you got 2 Kinects, 2 360's, 2 TV's, and a lan connection? Boom. Problem solved.

 

[Raistlin]

I don't know how big it's going to be but it's going to outsell Move by a shitload. The Yoga, dance and fitness games are going to sell the system. Too bad it doesn't appear there will be an core game made.

I'd be surprised. For a the casual gamer who for whatever reason hasn't purchased a Wii yet, and is looking for a console ... I think the pricing may make it a hard sell versus them just getting a Wii. Certainly some will make the jump, but I'd be surprised if it's a huge amount.

Similarly, there will be some current 360 owners who get it. But again, will the numbers be large? Kinect has zero expectations in regards to core gaming, which is the types of games I would think a large portion of the 360 audience.



Move on the other hand, yeah - I don't see it selling to casuals either. Likely, even less so than Kinect.

However, I think it will actually do fairly well with current PS3 owners. The fact that it will be used with core games, plus will have 'Wii HD' games for it seems like a pretty decent selling point.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

I must've missed that Star Wars kinect game preview. Cause I sure as hell didnt read any write-ups on that one.

Read the paragraph again and note the words 'aside', 'from', 'the', 'star, 'wars', 'game'. Or would you have liked me to re-clarify the same point again.

No, just the biggest hugest selling ones: Wii Sports, Just Dance, Kart, NSMB

Wii Sports doesn't support 4 player simultaneous player, as far as I know. I mostly play Resort, and of the dozen+ games I think 1 supports it. Just Dance I haven't played, but I've heard is terrible. I'm sure 4 people would be happy enough to dance along to Dance Central, which looks to be a much better game. Mario Kart and NSMB I'll give you -- I'm not saying there are no 4-players-at-once titles on the Wii, just that most aren't.

 

[Broken Arrow]

LOL, this shit is dead for me.

 

[manueldelalas]

My point wasn't that it has a problem with it. My point was that most casual players of Kinect won't care or miss it, because most of their multiplayer time spent on the Wii is either with 2 people or taking turns. So let's not pretend that it's a huge feature incorporated into all major casual Wii games that they'll massively miss. I don't think 90% of the Kinect audience will even think about it.

My point is that you are wrong.

NSMBW, Smash Bros, Mario Kart Wii, Mario Party 8, Wii Sports 1 and Guitar Hero all say that you are wrong. There is a reason why party games sell well. Because they are multiplayer.

Wii Sports Resort is a really bad example, because to play four players, you need four WM+ attachments which almost none of the casual crowd has and will never have.

 

[boiled goose]

My point wasn't that it has a problem with it. My point was that most casual players of Kinect won't care or miss it, because most of their multiplayer time spent on the Wii is either with 2 people or taking turns. So let's not pretend that it's a huge feature incorporated into all major casual Wii games that they'll massively miss. I don't think 90% of the Kinect audience will even think about it.

think of the major system sellers of the wii:

zelda tp brings the nintendo faithful
4 player tennis on wii sports brought in the casuals
4 player mario kart wii was a bridge title
4 player smash brought in a lot of the gamecube core
wii fit brings in more casual and fitness crou
4 player nsmbwii revived the wii last year

I would say these are the biggest system sellers for wii in terms of bringing in new types of gamers to the console.

4/6 have 4 player coop as one of their main features

 

[Haly]

People saying "well casuals don't have 4 remotes hah" for whatever reason are missing something pretty crucial which shows they have extremely limited experience with casual gaming.

More than one family might have a Wii.

 

[Hypereides]

Read the paragraph again and note the words 'aside', 'from', 'the', 'star, 'wars', 'game'. Or would you have liked me to re-clarify the same point again.

No need in being cranky about it. I obviously misread and retract my comment.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

No need in being cranky about it. I obviously misread and retract my comment.

I apologise. It just feels like the same statements have to be made in these threads on every new page.

My point is that you are wrong.

NSMBW, Smash Bros, Mario Kart Wii, Mario Party 8, Wii Sports 1 and Guitar Hero all say that you are wrong. There is a reason why party games sell well. Because they are multiplayer.

Wii Sports Resort is a really bad example, because to play four players, you need four WM+ attachments which almost none of the casual crowd has and will never have.

Now you're stretching to Guitar Hero on a console renowned to be FULL of casual multiplayer titles. Man, I wish Kinect owners could play Guitar Hero.

Wii Sports Resort, with or without 4 WM+, doesn't offer 4 player simultaneous play for, as far as I know, any game but canoeing. I can't remember the original Wii Sports offering it either aside from maybe Tennis and the others do, but they're far and few between. Kinect will offer plenty of 4 players games that resort to 2 player and 1 player at a time a la Wii Sports.

 

[Tom Penny]

I'd be surprised. For a the casual gamer who for whatever reason hasn't purchased a Wii yet, and is looking for a console ... I think the pricing may make it a hard sell versus them just getting a Wii. Certainly some will make the jump, but I'd be surprised if it's a huge amount.

Similarly, there will be some current 360 owners who get it. But again, will the numbers be large? Kinect has zero expectations in regards to core gaming, which is the types of games I would think a large portion of the 360 audience.



Move on the other hand, yeah - I don't see it selling to casuals either. Likely, even less so than Kinect.

However, I think it will actually do fairly well with current PS3 owners. The fact that it will be used with core games, plus will have 'Wii HD' games for it seems like a pretty decent selling point.

Your under estimating MS marketing. Sony blows donkey balls at marketing products. Kinect will be on all sorts of morning shows late night shows etc...bank on it. It will eat up the casual market. Move is too expensive to sell well. If you compare not owning either console and Move to Kinect. It's almost $200 bucks more to get Move for 2 people. It's destined to fail...and if not sell dramatically less than Kinect.

 

[DSN2K]

Family orientated product what only supports 2 players is really poor to be totally honest, one of the major strengths of the Wii is the whole family can play together at the same time very quickly and simply.

 

[DeadGzuz]

I have a Wii with two controllers and never felt the need to buy two more. That's just too much chaos and few games support it. Two at once or 3-4 by passing the controller seems optimal, especially with the prices of the controllers.

 

[El-Suave]

How many people here have played Wii with four people in the same room?

On one hand people are saying we're not the relevant group to ask but now we are?
Take Mario Party for example - I bet that one is frequently played by more than two people among kids. Games like Buzz have been doing quite well in Europe and that comes with four wireless buzzers and is frequently played by more than two people as well I'd think. Surely there are ways to design around that but still...

 

[cgcg]

Well what if you got 2 Kinects, 2 360's, 2 TV's, and a lan connection? Boom. Problem solved.

Don't forget the 4 ropes to hang yourselves with.

 

[JaggedSac]

PrimeSense is only providing the depth map, via their hardware, they are not doing any processing on it. MS's software is what is running against the depth map to create the skeletal systems. PrimeSense is only talking about their own skeletal system solution, which they are providing to developers for their own purposes. Their statements have nothing to do with Kinect.

 

[manueldelalas]

I apologise. It just feels like the same statements have to be made in these threads on every new page.



Now you're stretching to Guitar Hero on a console renowned to be FULL of casual multiplayer titles. Man, I wish Kinect owners could play Guitar Hero.

Wii Sports Resort, with or without 4 WM+, doesn't offer 4 player simultaneous play for, as far as I know, any game but canoeing. I can't remember the original Wii Sports offering it either aside from maybe Tennis and the others do, but they're far and few between. Kinect will offer plenty of 4 players games that resort to 2 player and 1 player at a time a la Wii Sports.

OK, I'm tired of this shit. Look at the Wii top sellers (the ones the casual crowd care about, because any game that sells well, means it's the casuals buying (even Halo and Gears of War, yeah I know it's difficult to understand this point). Count the ones that can be played with four players simultaneously, count the ones that don't.

THEN post here.

 

[Revolver]

Just a general comment. Hardcore gamers (e.g. - GAF) are finding so much wrong with Kinect but what they keep failing to realize is they are not the target market for this product, not even close. Of course a traditional gamer is going to find something wrong with something that is not a traditional way of playing games, that is exactly what Kinect is.

Further, gamers seem to talk as if this so called "bad press" even gets to the actual target market - it likely doesn't because they don't care as much as we do. I was chatting to a co-worker about Kinect, and she was hyped, had no clue about the sitting down stuff. Even with that, she still wanted to try it, as she had put in her time with the Wii and was ready for the next thing.

You can list 100 things "wrong" with the Wii - doesn't change the fact it is kicking the ass of the PS3 and 360 in sales. The Wii, just like Kinect, appeals to the morning show and talk show crowd - once they see it on the Today Show or Oprah, they all want to play it - even if they can only play two at a time.

I've been having similar experiences with co-workers and relatives. They haven't heard about any bad press and are under the impression that Kinect is going to revolutionize gaming. One thing that keeps coming up in my conversations, that annoys me, is that so many people seem to think that Kinect is a new console. I was telling one of my co-workers that the rumors say it's going to cost $149. She said, "That's not bad for a new system." Once I explained to her that it's not a new system but an add-on for the existing 360 her enthusiasm faded but she still said she wanted to try it.

Once we get closer to launch and Ellen and Oprah start giving these things away to screaming fans I expect the hype train to really get rolling. I haven't heard one word in the local media about 3DS or Move at E3. It's like Sony and Nintendo weren't even there. I guess MS are probably happy with the reaction they've gotten in the mainstream press. To me, it seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors but I wouldn't be surprised if this thing sells like hotcakes when it launches.

 

[Canova]

I don't know why this crappy product needs more exposure.

no need to glorify the failure

 

[DrM]

I think that Kinect will do well in the US and it will fail in Europe and in Japan.