NinjamicWZ
Banned
I saw this uploaded on Yongyea's channel last night and thought it was pretty interesting, esp since I didn't know near enough about David Bowie to catch it and don't spend any time in threads about it.
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Kojima, Fukushima, Murata and whatever happened to MGS after Snake Eater
- Thread starter DevilFox
- Start date
I saw this uploaded on Yongyea's channel last night and thought it was pretty interesting, esp since I didn't know near enough about David Bowie to catch it and don't spend any time in threads about it.
I always saw that ending speech in two different ways. One is Kojima speaking directly to the player and giving them the title of Big Boss for being fans for so many years. The other way is Big Boss manipulating you so you can serve him better. Big Boss doesn't believe that you're part of him, you're a tool. There can only be one big boss remember? Once you're usefulness runs out he let you take the fall for his actions.
I found the ending sort of a twist of MGS2. MGS2 has a somewhat happy Ending where raiden can be who he wants but Venom doesn't have that choice. His former self is gone. It's somewhat depressing when you really think about how his story ends. I don't think Kojima is contradicting himself, Venom just doesn't get the choice.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
To be fair, as far as we know, Big Boss was still out there doing amazing things, we just don't see it. I mean, look at him in Ground Zeroes and the start of the Phantom Pain. He's still a badass. In fact, we know he was doing big things because he was the one supposedly still building Outer Heaven; we don't know how much of Diamond Dogs became Outer Heaven and how much was all Big Boss.
And Skull Face wasn't a helper so much as the guy who cleaned up after missions if I remember correctly. That's how he got a hold of Volgin and The End.
semiconscious
Member
pretty sure this's at the heart of the matter, moreso than who was or wasn't working with him. kojima's always made great games, but not all of'm've told equally great stories. 4, V, & peace walker were all fun to play, but, yeah, the stories were no longer quite as crazy, & the villains were no longer quite as interesting (with skull face easily being the dullest of'm). i actually thought more than once while playing phantom pain that, had kojima kept all the gameplay exactly as it was, but gone with a completely new non-mgs cast & story, i very likely would've enjoyed the game as much or even more...
i'm a huge kojima fan, & wish him well. i just hope that, whatever he gets up to next, his heart's truly back into it...
What?
Cuban Legend
Member
Stop right there, You're willing to submit that Kojima changed one thing, but your wont acknowledge Twin Snakes? I am assuming you pass on it because of the extravagant matrix-life action it contained in cutscenes, by the gif you posted...
Let me just make one thing straight. The Twin Snakes has those matrix-style cutscenes because.. well, Kojima changed it. He hired that movie director to direct the cutscenes and originally that director submitted versions that were faithful to the original game, and Kojima rejected them and had the director re-do the cutscenes in that director's well-known matrix-like style.
Either acknowledge ALL of Kojima's questionable changes, or none of them.
^ Cuban Legend: dude, it was a joke lol. I agree with you, though I didn't know about Kojima rejecting the cinematics. I'll search for info.
Anti Americanism doesn't refer to America itself as much as it does to ideologies and politics in this case. Like freedom vs control, the article I linked does a great job at explaining it.
Shortly, the problem is that a fight for ideologies was toned down to a personal fight. The dream of "a nation for free soldiers", free from politics, became a war against a single man. Both PW and MGSV are nothing more than Kaz and BB trying to get more money and soldiers to fight Zero, the dream of Outer Heaven and its meaning is postponed. The idea of men living outside of laws controlling everything was fucked up the exact second the Patriots became a AI rather than true people. Even worse, the bad guys (Zero, hence the Patriots hence the US and by extension the world) progressively became less and less bad. Indeed, now we know that Zero was actually a lovely guy and that the AI he created just went nuts. Like saying "shit happens".
I wouldn't do that. He gets it:
it's not a dress itself but the characterization of the character and how it's presented to us, context and intentions, and while Naomi was still the brave woman we knew, she was also clearly designed to be liked and dressed to seduce, which would be fine if there was a character to seduce! No, it's just for player's pleasure. Secondly, I see Meryl in underwear is often mentioned but:
Anti Americanism doesn't refer to America itself as much as it does to ideologies and politics in this case. Like freedom vs control, the article I linked does a great job at explaining it.
Shortly, the problem is that a fight for ideologies was toned down to a personal fight. The dream of "a nation for free soldiers", free from politics, became a war against a single man. Both PW and MGSV are nothing more than Kaz and BB trying to get more money and soldiers to fight Zero, the dream of Outer Heaven and its meaning is postponed. The idea of men living outside of laws controlling everything was fucked up the exact second the Patriots became a AI rather than true people. Even worse, the bad guys (Zero, hence the Patriots hence the US and by extension the world) progressively became less and less bad. Indeed, now we know that Zero was actually a lovely guy and that the AI he created just went nuts. Like saying "shit happens".
I wouldn't do that. He gets it:
it's not a dress itself but the characterization of the character and how it's presented to us, context and intentions, and while Naomi was still the brave woman we knew, she was also clearly designed to be liked and dressed to seduce, which would be fine if there was a character to seduce! No, it's just for player's pleasure. Secondly, I see Meryl in underwear is often mentioned but:
- if you take your time before entering the bathroom, she will have her pants on.
- I don't see a bad intent, which is what matters when we talk about sexualization. I mean, she was actually changing her clothes!
But all the Codec system would add is talking heads and drag out the main flow of the game while you listen and listen and listen and listen. Hell, you might not even get talking heads if they kept to the tech of that era and would have likely gone back to portraits, like in MGS3.
I'm not even sure context actually helps all that much, either. Pretty much everyone has dogged and continues to do how Codec calls were used in MGS2, even with it having a flimsy tie as to why it's used all the time by everyone while they're in front of you. It's exceptionally poor storytelling, and I really don't think watching one person yap on and on about whatever bullshit science fiction they're on about with the other person's contribution to the conversation is to restate the last four or five words that were just said in the form of a question is compelling in the slightest.
We will never REALLY know. We have pre-MGS, solo Kojima with Snatcher, Policenauts and MG2. I think its arguable the story and themes changed in MGS3. The gameplay scenarios got a bit worse in 4 and significantly wose in V. Lack of codecs also suck but Im not sure the quality of writing is much worse in the tapes. Its just the format thats changed.
Anyway, you can see some of the ex staff's work with Freedom Wars and NeverDead, in a few years we may have a Kojima-less MGS6 and a new Kojima IP.
Anyway, you can see some of the ex staff's work with Freedom Wars and NeverDead, in a few years we may have a Kojima-less MGS6 and a new Kojima IP.
consistently good is one thing, yet the quality of each is highly disputed and not even fully realized until years later. lots of people mentioned their dislike of 2, the praise of 3, the dislike of 4 even though it got praise, and then peace walker being a PSP game with a complete change in design focus, and then V being probably the most disputed of them all. so that doesn't strike me as consistent. the complaints about V are way more diverse and backed up by peculiar design choices (quiet being the most surface level of those complaints, and certainly not the only one). having complaints does NOT minimize what the game does right, considering the overwhelming feedback was "best gameplay and weakest story". I think spending time on certain unneeded aspects and neglecting others (like finishing the story) is why people tend to discount the narrative focus vs. the effort put towards gameplay.
I played ground zeroes, and while it took place there, I didn't attribute it to being anti-american vs. skullface doing whatever he wants with the tools available. the shot of the american flag and people in cages was definitely obvious and dark, but less direct than a phonecall from the US president or director of the CIA. that was pretty obvious stuff.
but at least you explained your opinion this time.
and I totally disagree with that jon stewart gif post. what value could that possibly add to the discussion.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
It read like plain English to me.
Yeah also a good point.
ok let's do this again
after "what happen after FF7?"
"what happen after Zelda OOT?"
"what happen after Assassin's Creed 2"
"what happen after super mario bros 3?"
here it is, the new "nostalgia" topic that will ruin the future of the saga of metal gear games.
I started playing all the MGS games for the first time last year. 1, 2, & 3 are now among my favorite games of all time. I agree so hard with OP.
And the three games I mentioned still do deal with the ideologies and politics. Like I said with Peace Walker it criticizes deterrence theory heavily and interfering with other countries. The socialist revolutionaries are glorified throughout the game and you help them out in the end. Skullface wants to get rid of English since it is a way for Cipher to control information. If everyone speaks the same language, they control the message more easily.
I don't really understand the personal vs ideas fight you're talking about. I've always felt Metal Gear has been a personal fight with the greater meta story going on. If you could provide some examples that would be great (I'm reading the article right now so I'll update this if I get what you mean) because I can somewhat understand what you're trying to get at but I just don't see how any of the characters in the game have the goal of "I want to stop this idea from spreading", I always saw it as a personal struggle that just happened to deal with a specific theme.
Zero may have been watered down a bit but he really needed to be since we went from MGS3 to MGS4 with no real explanation of what happened to him. (That of course was a huge fuck up and a discussion of its own) Even with that he still isn't a lovely guy. He tried to submit Snake into joining back up with him by having his double agent hijack a metal gear, he cloned snake without his consent, and stole the life of Venom away. Metal Gear has never had 100% evil villains, all of them with the exception of Volgin I guess have some sympathetic side/you can understand what they're going through. metal gear like the real world is
Edit: ok finished reading the article, I understand what you're getting at but I still feel the games are anti american due to them questioning the politics of America. Yeah it turned from America vs everyone to Zero vs Big Boss but the criticisms of American politics are still there. We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I don't follow YongYea otherwise but I had that video linked to me and appreciated it. I think it kind of asserts a little too much influence one song had on the entire plot, but it's an interesting comparison nonetheless, regardless of intent by Kojima.
Yeah its grammatically correct English. Meaningless though.
OnimaruXLR
Member
I dunno, the change in each game seems to me more like yknow... change... than getting worse, personally. That's one of the things I like about Metal Gear Solid actually, that every game is so distinct compared to the others. For instance, you can't sell short the various outside factors influencing each title just due to the passage of time. Peace Walker was basically a response to Monster Hunter. He watched a lot of Breaking Bad during the development of MGS5, the game where you do a variety of heinous shit for tenuously justified reasons. And that stupid scene with Meryl and Johnny from MGS4 is literally lifted right out of Mr. And Mrs. Smith
but I like Metal Gear Rising so I'm probably considered crazy by a large portion of "serious" MGS fans
but I like Metal Gear Rising so I'm probably considered crazy by a large portion of "serious" MGS fans
He's saying since Metal gear contains those themes a twist seen like at the end of MGSV isn't far fetched as opposed to something like Star Wars which does not have those themes. So if a twist like that was in star wars it would be out of no where. Not meaningless.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
He's not a guru or anything, he just had a lot of great coverage when the last month or two before release was way too hype to handle, and I always appreciate when people put stuff into a cohesive video... helps put forth ideas in a sea of reactionary noise. That vid's just one of an ongoing thing that'll interpret different things. Haven't seen any of the others.
If you say so. It was pretty understandable to me.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
This is how I feel about a lot (not all of course) of the complaints. "But *insert MGS game* isn't exactly like my personal favorite MGS!"
This sort of sentiment goes way back to games like Zelda II and Mario USA: Pretty decent games that got a lot of hate because they went a different direction from the original.
SolidSnakex
Member
As far as Meryl's panties go, use the same viewpoint that you're using to judge Naomi's design in MGS4 with that. What purpose does Meryl being in panties serve? It's the exact same reason as seeing Naomi's cleavage. Or the same reason why Sniper Wolf's cleavage is exposed. And why Fortune wears a leotard. Kojima's never tried to hide that he's a perv, nor has it been hidden in any way in his games. That's always front and center to some degree. You can argue that he started going more in that direction with later games, which is true, but acting like it never happened in the early games is just completely false. It's literally always been there ins the exact same ways that it is now.
I'd argue that the changes overall in the series has a lot less to do with Fukushima, and a lot more to do with Kojima wanting to do other things. He'd mapped out a game for The Boss that would've been MGS5, but his staff was too scared to take it on without him. He's mentioned that he didn't want to make more MGS games for awhile, but MGS4 was the first time he seemed rather adamant about not wanting to do it. But no one on his staff seemed confident about doing it on their own. So once again he had to get back onto the series instead of doing something else. I'm not saying he no longer had passion for the series, but I think he was at a point where ideas he had for other games started bleeding into MGS because that's the only place he could put them.
You know, I would have loved to see something like this with Venom. But there are no complex emotions from him in that sequence, no reaction to the abhorrent act devised by Big Boss and Cypher. He's fucking smirking when he hear the news. Maybe Kojima planned more, we'll never now, but what's there feels to me like a simplified and not thought out version of the Raiden twist, with an inferior message. Kojima told me to go out and do something with my life in 2002 with Sons of Libery, now in Phantom Pain he's patting me on the back because I bought all his games and this somehow makes me worthy of somehing . It's more complex than that, but I can't help to feel underwhelmed by it.
yea Pax Hamburgana was SO DEEP
yeah i get that. it's definitely a valid criticism. there's a real problem sometimes on whether venom is supposed to act like his own character or be the silent avatar.
thesolidshark
Member
A lot of thoughts in these quotes, especially the bolded ones are some of the first thoughts I had after reading the OP. I do appreciate how much consideration DevilFox put into his explanation, but to summarize more what I think happened after Snake Eater, Kojima wanted to go in different directions after it, and people remember 1-3 most fondly. I heavily agree with people being surprised that 2 is allowed to be remembered as one of the greats, considering the reception it got; but maybe it's just the people who are talking about it most today are the ones enamored by it's high points and bold moves, and it's sandwiched between 1 and 3. As someone who loved it from the moment he played it, it's really weird to see a general turnaround about this, but time has passed, and what's supposed to be the best MG(S) has always been subjective.
I really have to wonder how much Fukushima and Murata really could have, or would have changed if they were still around. If they were still at Konami up to Kojima's departure, would we still be crediting them with some of the great stuff in 1-3, or would the consensus still be "things went to hell after Snake Eater" for some? I still look at each game as similar yet very different from each other (a strength to the series imo), and sometimes Kojima and co might've actually wanted to make an entirely different game, but chose to insert there ideas around a MGS skin; PW and V especially make me think that.
To go over OP's points,
1) As others have said, I feel the anti-American sentiment only got stronger after Snake Eater, or even anti-any established nation, generally speaking.
2) Subjective. The charm of the first 3, I think you more prefer the tone of the first three when some of the more ridiculous stuff went down. And setting aside Twin Snakes doesn't help your claim imo.
3) Given the complaints post Snake Eater female characters get about how they're depicted, I really wonder if 1-3 would be that different in judgment. The technology, as some have said, make a difference. It hasn't changed much in my eyes, but I'm willing to concede that I might be the only fan of the B&B crew and Quiet.
4) Blame 4, if it's even to be blamed. Fans wanted questions answered, and Kojima gave us many of those answers in a game set to be the end of the Solid saga. In another dimension, I still imagine a lot of people (maybe the same people), being upset if some of those questions didn't get answered. Really, I think most just didn't like the answers given.
The whole nanomachine craze and memes came from 4, and it's kind of annoying that a lot of fans think that every mysterious and unexplained thing in MGS was suddenly "nanomachines," maybe mainly because Vamp got his abilities through that. For anyone that's well-versed enough with the lore, plenty of stuff remains a mystery, and isn't explained away by "science."
And for the explaining of older characters of their younger selves, that's to be expected when you have several games set in the past. Connections are going to be made, in a Metal Gear game surprisingly.
5) We'll agree to disagree there, as I like where the lore has gone after 3, maybe as much as the first 3.
6) I've never minded a lot of the concepts he under-delivered on, even though I was really excited for some of them (more branching-hanging-shooting in 3, and 'no place to hide' in 4, even those were still present). Like the way you think of 3, I think each one came out to be a good product. Even if it was overambitious, I appreciate him trying to utilize it, even if the technology limited him.
The character switching of Raiden and Venom worked for me, and I very much appreciate them being there. I've always loved the subversion of who we're supposed to be playing in a MG game, and most of the time, I've more or less had a different or very much changed character to play.
And with the meaningful kills, I just have a different experience of that mission. As I did what I did, I recognized the names of who I had to shoot, and remember some of them from the time I fultoned them to Mother Base, and watched their stats rise, and chuckled at their awesome and ridiculous code names. Yeah, it might not be as effective as if they were more established characters with constant dialog, but I'd be expecting that. I didn't expect to care about the characters I shot because they could be just 'tools on Mother Base' to paraphrase the OP, but I did care surprisingly. Small moments of their lives flashed before my eyes as I recognized their names and how they got to the end of theirs. My description might be a little overdramatic, but just pointing out how some might experience that mission, or that aspect of TPP differently, maybe in a way that Kojima was going for (obviously whether he succeeded or not is totally subjective).
My answer of your TL;DR is I doubt that Fukushima would've made a real difference in the games you're talking about. Small differences, probably, but then again, the small things make the most difference to some. I think Kojima wanted to do different things with each game, and went for it. He was tired of it, no doubt about that, but I still love the work he put in. I'm sure Fukushima was a good team member that was lost, but I still think the games he didn't work on are as good as the ones he did.
This. He clearly hates making the same game over and over. Peace Walker was for teenagers who like coop and Monster Hunter, Ground Zeroes was jarringly dark, no mech or supernatural elements...Phantom Pain was his shot a sandbox type game.
Jawmuncher
Member
Kojima should have been off the series the same time Fukushima left.
You can tell he wanted to do other things, but was just stuck with MGS due to reasons. Though it makes me wonder why he did what he did with the story for later entries.
Since he could have left well enough alone, and still made MGS games with the ideas he had.
You can tell he wanted to do other things, but was just stuck with MGS due to reasons. Though it makes me wonder why he did what he did with the story for later entries.
Since he could have left well enough alone, and still made MGS games with the ideas he had.
Maybe if you dramatically misunderstand the comparison.
The Silver
Member
I think even more than the great mythical Fukushima it's the fact that Kojima was done with series after MGS3.
He never wanted to make the sequel to MGS2, fucking death threats were partly responsible for bringing him back for MGS4. Peace Walker and MGSV never should have been MGS games but they had to be so Kojima could get the funding to make them. He's literally said as much in regards to MGSV.
The MGS series became an albatross for Kojima following MGS3.
He never wanted to make the sequel to MGS2, fucking death threats were partly responsible for bringing him back for MGS4. Peace Walker and MGSV never should have been MGS games but they had to be so Kojima could get the funding to make them. He's literally said as much in regards to MGSV.
The MGS series became an albatross for Kojima following MGS3.
Excellent write-up and addresses everything wrong with the series after Snake Eater. I'm going to rant and not many are going to agree, but...
MGS4 is a fucking disaster. It's tonally all over the place. Easily one of my most reviled games, especially considering 2/3 is cutscenes somehow less interesting and more boring than any single scene in MGS2, or pathetic excuses for gameplay. There is barely two hours of actual solid sneaking gameplay, all isolated to the first two chapters with atrocious pacing. Another scripted bike chase that manages to be even less fun than the previous one. A return to Shadow Moses ruined by the fact that the place is just loaded with robots, the worst enemies in the game. I wanted to sneak and CQC fuckers in a way I couldn't do in 1998. Instead I just got a bunch of fucking spheres with arms bumbling around like giant nuggets of annoying shit.
Peace Walker is fun because it actually has significantly more gameplay. But the story is a crock of shit, just like MGS4. Kojima turned the hamminess up to eleven and showed us next to nothing. The entire "resolution" in the end is cheap. Big Boss already knew what he needed to about The Boss. His sudden "maybe it was a lie from the CIA" crap makes no sense since EVA wasn't a fucking CIA agent. She had absolutely no reason to lie. Then when he receives EVA's second tape about the reason The Boss left him, he swallows the whole thing no problem. Fuck off.
MGSV is one of the greatest games ever made from a gameplay standpoint, but the story is half-assed and mostly pseudo-pretentious gibberish. The twist is one of the cheapest I've ever witnessed and it barely fits. "Ishmael" just grows a fucking beard in five minutes? No. And it's not an oversight since Kojima had a head cast made of it. It's bad writing, plain and simple. Zero's "redemption" in this game is total gibberish too. You mean to tell me the guy that was about to frame Big Boss for a nuclear attack so the world can curbstomp him and everyone he cares about all of a sudden will do anything for Big Boss? Kojima fucked up the moment he wrote Zero into MGS4 and his scrambling to fix it since has done nothing but create something inconsistent.
MGS1-3 have simple, relatively straightforward stories. A lot of detail to them, yes, but they're tonally consistent with themselves and easy to follow. They don't retcon each other in every other line of dialogue and there's nothing of the absolutely atrocious caliber of that Johnny X Meryl scene. Fuck everything about that. I hope Kojima's fingers hurt writing that disgrace.
MGS4 is a fucking disaster. It's tonally all over the place. Easily one of my most reviled games, especially considering 2/3 is cutscenes somehow less interesting and more boring than any single scene in MGS2, or pathetic excuses for gameplay. There is barely two hours of actual solid sneaking gameplay, all isolated to the first two chapters with atrocious pacing. Another scripted bike chase that manages to be even less fun than the previous one. A return to Shadow Moses ruined by the fact that the place is just loaded with robots, the worst enemies in the game. I wanted to sneak and CQC fuckers in a way I couldn't do in 1998. Instead I just got a bunch of fucking spheres with arms bumbling around like giant nuggets of annoying shit.
Peace Walker is fun because it actually has significantly more gameplay. But the story is a crock of shit, just like MGS4. Kojima turned the hamminess up to eleven and showed us next to nothing. The entire "resolution" in the end is cheap. Big Boss already knew what he needed to about The Boss. His sudden "maybe it was a lie from the CIA" crap makes no sense since EVA wasn't a fucking CIA agent. She had absolutely no reason to lie. Then when he receives EVA's second tape about the reason The Boss left him, he swallows the whole thing no problem. Fuck off.
MGSV is one of the greatest games ever made from a gameplay standpoint, but the story is half-assed and mostly pseudo-pretentious gibberish. The twist is one of the cheapest I've ever witnessed and it barely fits. "Ishmael" just grows a fucking beard in five minutes? No. And it's not an oversight since Kojima had a head cast made of it. It's bad writing, plain and simple. Zero's "redemption" in this game is total gibberish too. You mean to tell me the guy that was about to frame Big Boss for a nuclear attack so the world can curbstomp him and everyone he cares about all of a sudden will do anything for Big Boss? Kojima fucked up the moment he wrote Zero into MGS4 and his scrambling to fix it since has done nothing but create something inconsistent.
MGS1-3 have simple, relatively straightforward stories. A lot of detail to them, yes, but they're tonally consistent with themselves and easy to follow. They don't retcon each other in every other line of dialogue and there's nothing of the absolutely atrocious caliber of that Johnny X Meryl scene. Fuck everything about that. I hope Kojima's fingers hurt writing that disgrace.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
The comparison tried to say the changes MGSV:TPP introduced to the lore were bad because similar changes wouldn't work in Star Wars, something I think only makes sense if you ignore the Metal Gear series hitting you over the head with the fact that your heroes' myths and legends are much more important than their actual identities, or actively punishing you for clinging to them. Hence me pointing out the two franchises dabble in vastly different areas thematically, making the comparison effectively saying apples are bad because they aren't oranges. I don't even mean to say complaints about the changes are entirely unwarranted, just that the Star Wars comparison is.
Not really, no. You're missing the forest for the trees. It's just an absurdist example jokingly building off the Lucas comparison, highlighting how silly MGS V is. Not meant to be taken so directly.
That's because Rising is the best thing to happen to the Metal Gear franchise in the last ten years
Roni
Gold Member
<- SPOILERS AHEAD ->
One thing changed after MGS3, they had to actually start spelling things out and narrowing the amount of things left for the imagination. The time for adding things for the sake of misdirection and/or mystery was gone.
Disagree...
MGS4 dealt with the Patriots as an international, formless organization that staged worldwide conflict, so naturally the anti-American sentiment will take a back seat. But in Peace Walker you fight a CIA rogue unit who has taken over a Central American country in attempts of using it as a test bed for nuclear weapons and political maneuvering. This is yet another depiction of American imperialism during the Cold War.
In Ground Zeroes, the enemy is America and that game is all about exploring the lengths that America will go to get what it wants.
In Phantom Pain, the American culture (and the English language as its vector) is treated as a weapon being used to systematically destroy both opposing and allied cultures. This culminates in Zero's interpretation of the Boss' will to unite the world. He chooses to do so by unifying everything and his weapon is by standardizing culture and behavior under the English language. Not a very positive outlook on it.
Don't think those are valid arguments when Gray Fox was already dodging fire using back flips in the original MGS, the Tengu unit was already doing weird jumps and using swords to fight you in MGS2 or Volgin stopping and exposing the plot multiple times instead of just killing you in MGS3.
We could catch Meryl undressed at least twice in MGS and she served as a plot device to advance the story, to guilt the player into taking unnecessary punishment going along with an optional segment in the game and to psychologically torture the player in MGS. All of those are scenarios designed to leverage the expectation that a male player would care for a female character and fight for her. Mei Ling was designed to flirt with Solid Snake and spew trivia about Asian culture. Sniper Wolf, an enemy, flirts with you after she captures you in some sort of weird fetish for her and the player.
MGS2 had a woman wearing tight spandex for the entire game and an 18 year old geek designed to be both a hook for schoolgirls and a waifu for male players. There is an entire gameplay section in which the player is tasked with caring and protecting said girl because she is completely helpless, just as Hollywood movies usually portray women.
MGS3 had EVA. I don't think one needs to go further than this. The first time the player's character has sex with another character in the series and it is showed.
These things have always been there and have simply been taken to a new level now that the tech allows it. I have no doubt that bouncing boobs would've been more prominently featured in the previous game if it were technically possible. Since they were at least prototyped in MGS3 with EVA.
There is a point the game's timeline splits with the real world and the world in 2014 is very different from what it is in showed in MGS4. MGS3 is simply much closer to the split point, therefore its tech representation is more tame. In my opinion, Peace Walker and Phantom Pain's tech is in line with a timeline that will culminate in a world where in 2014 human cloning is perfected, bipedal amphibious walking tanks are easily mass produced and nanomachines give people super powers.
Raiden was received even worse than Venom was, people wanted to play as Solid Snake and not some blonde guy. Kojima addressed that problem while keeping the twist a possibility: you now only find out about your real identity in the end and your looks match the character you expected to play as.
Venom was a nice compromise between a silent protagonist and a character that needed to interact with those around him given the goal was to leave him as a vessel for the player's identity placed on top of Big Boss's identity. And we do see Big Boss in Phantom Pain and we do get exposition that allows us to feel something about him, we can either love him as the icon he is and the one we've followed for so long or the betrayer who went along with a plan to sacrifice your identity and the lives of countless innocents for his own gain. It serves its purpose.
That argument sort of falls apart when you realize every one criticized Kojima for Quiet 2 years before the game came out and he still stuck to it. Because there was a point to it: the power of the twist at the end of mission 45 is proportionate to your affection for Quiet. Not a far fetch to believe Kojima sees the audience of his games as primarily male. So playing the numbers, he figures he's rather safe making her beautiful, hot and useful in gameplay.
She leaves you out of her own will never to come back. That's a lot more than you can say for any other female character in the series, perhaps the entire industry. It took fan pressure for Konami to undo that rather bold statement, which I find sad.
One thing changed after MGS3, they had to actually start spelling things out and narrowing the amount of things left for the imagination. The time for adding things for the sake of misdirection and/or mystery was gone.
Disagree...
MGS4 dealt with the Patriots as an international, formless organization that staged worldwide conflict, so naturally the anti-American sentiment will take a back seat. But in Peace Walker you fight a CIA rogue unit who has taken over a Central American country in attempts of using it as a test bed for nuclear weapons and political maneuvering. This is yet another depiction of American imperialism during the Cold War.
In Ground Zeroes, the enemy is America and that game is all about exploring the lengths that America will go to get what it wants.
In Phantom Pain, the American culture (and the English language as its vector) is treated as a weapon being used to systematically destroy both opposing and allied cultures. This culminates in Zero's interpretation of the Boss' will to unite the world. He chooses to do so by unifying everything and his weapon is by standardizing culture and behavior under the English language. Not a very positive outlook on it.
Don't think those are valid arguments when Gray Fox was already dodging fire using back flips in the original MGS, the Tengu unit was already doing weird jumps and using swords to fight you in MGS2 or Volgin stopping and exposing the plot multiple times instead of just killing you in MGS3.
We could catch Meryl undressed at least twice in MGS and she served as a plot device to advance the story, to guilt the player into taking unnecessary punishment going along with an optional segment in the game and to psychologically torture the player in MGS. All of those are scenarios designed to leverage the expectation that a male player would care for a female character and fight for her. Mei Ling was designed to flirt with Solid Snake and spew trivia about Asian culture. Sniper Wolf, an enemy, flirts with you after she captures you in some sort of weird fetish for her and the player.
MGS2 had a woman wearing tight spandex for the entire game and an 18 year old geek designed to be both a hook for schoolgirls and a waifu for male players. There is an entire gameplay section in which the player is tasked with caring and protecting said girl because she is completely helpless, just as Hollywood movies usually portray women.
MGS3 had EVA. I don't think one needs to go further than this. The first time the player's character has sex with another character in the series and it is showed.
These things have always been there and have simply been taken to a new level now that the tech allows it. I have no doubt that bouncing boobs would've been more prominently featured in the previous game if it were technically possible. Since they were at least prototyped in MGS3 with EVA.
There is a point the game's timeline splits with the real world and the world in 2014 is very different from what it is in showed in MGS4. MGS3 is simply much closer to the split point, therefore its tech representation is more tame. In my opinion, Peace Walker and Phantom Pain's tech is in line with a timeline that will culminate in a world where in 2014 human cloning is perfected, bipedal amphibious walking tanks are easily mass produced and nanomachines give people super powers.
Raiden was received even worse than Venom was, people wanted to play as Solid Snake and not some blonde guy. Kojima addressed that problem while keeping the twist a possibility: you now only find out about your real identity in the end and your looks match the character you expected to play as.
Venom was a nice compromise between a silent protagonist and a character that needed to interact with those around him given the goal was to leave him as a vessel for the player's identity placed on top of Big Boss's identity. And we do see Big Boss in Phantom Pain and we do get exposition that allows us to feel something about him, we can either love him as the icon he is and the one we've followed for so long or the betrayer who went along with a plan to sacrifice your identity and the lives of countless innocents for his own gain. It serves its purpose.
That argument sort of falls apart when you realize every one criticized Kojima for Quiet 2 years before the game came out and he still stuck to it. Because there was a point to it: the power of the twist at the end of mission 45 is proportionate to your affection for Quiet. Not a far fetch to believe Kojima sees the audience of his games as primarily male. So playing the numbers, he figures he's rather safe making her beautiful, hot and useful in gameplay.
She leaves you out of her own will never to come back. That's a lot more than you can say for any other female character in the series, perhaps the entire industry. It took fan pressure for Konami to undo that rather bold statement, which I find sad.
CenturionKei
Banned
Your entire argument is flawed just because of the first part.
Ground Zeroes is probably the most anti-american game i've ever played.
Ground Zeroes is probably the most anti-american game i've ever played.
This "philosophy" is all bullshit. Every single bit.
1) And that's where it should've ended.
2) This is not what happened. "Solid Snake Simulation" was a lie. The Patriots had no interest. It's also impossible, no random jock can suddenly become the greatest soldier. Kojima's "genes don't matter" nonsense in MGS1 falls into this too. It's feel-good nonsense that simply doesn't work. "Will" is not everything. Raiden was already one of the world's finest soldiers before he ever came into contact with The Patriots.
3) The ways his body were altered are bullshit. It's made even more unbelievable thanks to the completely unnecessary avatar creation. Oh so my afro-haired black man now looks exactly like Big Boss and somehow has his exact hair right down to the minutest detail? How did they reshape his entire face? No amount of plastic surgery would achieve that result. There is too much suspension of disbelief needed for the twist that it's completely undermined. Then the twist becomes even more ludicrous when Big Boss is told to change his own face but just... doesn't. So what was the point? I mean they already went out of their way in Ground Zeroes to make Venom's face just a younger Big Boss. Ishmael uses that same face, so the twist is handled extremely poorly. It would've been more believable but just as bullshit if Venom happened to look like a young Big Boss naturally and that's what attracted Big Boss to him in the first place, seeing a potential successor, an adopted son. Not a clone. Not convoluted enough for Kojima though. Instead we're led to believe that the aging Big Boss had no plans for Outer Heaven after his death. Way to dream, big guy.
4) Nobody wanted to know how Big Boss survived MG1. We knew how he survived. He's Big Boss. Liquid Snake is his clone for fuck sake. Surviving is a family trait.
The Shining Lights even in Death Sequence had no emotional impact on me because I ever saw those peoples faces. Mother base was barren when there was so much potential to make it a hub to interact with NPC's, acquire side quests, etc. Make it like Skyhold in DA: I or the Citadel in ME. If mother base was like that then all those killings would have effected me.
CenturionKei
Banned
Not everyone remembers randomly generated names for NPC's that can be replaced in five seconds. Shining Lights, Even in Death is very forced, and drama does not work well when it's forced. The whole thing literally comes out of nowhere. There is zero build-up.
CenturionKei
Banned
That's the point.
Just seconds ago you would be doing an open-mission, and suddenly the game throws you into a forced linear section, were your forced to gun down your loyal soldiers (some firing at you, others saluting, and telling you they live and die by your orders), It's a radical game play shift, in which, justfied by story, the control you've had doing all your missions, is taking away, and your literally forced to gun down your soldiers, in a horror eque mission. It's sudden for a reason, both for the player, and Big Boss (the suddenness explains why he starts having demonic hallucinations at the end, because it came out of literally nowhere.)
This is not how you tell a good story.
CenturionKei
Banned
I found it a good story moment. And it seems plenty of people agree with me, since whenever people talk about the highs of MGSV's story, most people go to Shining Lights Even in Death, or the Paz subplot.
Pretty sure my opinion is more common then you think.
Imagine if you acquire some missions or find out some lore from a couple NPC's on mother base, Hound Dog (random name). You chat with him every other mission, you learn Hound Dog has a sick daughter that he takes care of by working for diamond dogs and using an experimental drug they developed at MB. Some of the missions include finding the herbs and resources to develop that drug, and when it's developed he thanks you for it and says he can't wait to see his daughter during his vacation time. Then right before he's supposed to be on vacation he ends up being that last NPC you need to kill in that quarantine bay. He says his "only regret is not seeing my daughter smile one last time" and then says "it has to be done boss" and salutes you and then, the controls return to you and you have to pull the trigger.
Tell me that wouldn't have a larger impact on you and be more memorable and less forced?
And that's just one example, there could be a dozen or so NPC's with similar back stories and interactions you had with, and you'd end up having to kill them.
Yup. Thanks for the backup.
Some people are very easy to dazzle. Others need something with some substance, not just shoehorned in.
The Paz subplot was also poorly constructed and forced. Was it really necessary to have Ocelot and Miller show up? That goes way beyond hallucinating. Venom might as well have a film production studio in his brain. It also would've been better without that dumb bikini. Overall it was a far better story sequence than anything else in the game, but it still suffers from the same laziness as the rest.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Why would it have build-up? The mission rests upon it being a sudden outbreak of the parasites that was thought to be impossible and you being sent in after the initial squad that were supposed to deal with the situation failed to do so.
I'd also like to add that I don't personally care about Mother Base grunts either, but the mission still had a strong impact because I can empathise with Venom having to gun down what the game describes as his family and appreciate the mission for its significance in the story and Venom's characterisation.
Leave it at "I don't like it." Don't feign objectivity by inventing rules that clearly aren't true given the reception of that mission in particular.
We don't see Venom interact with any of the Diamond Dogs in any meaningful way. That alone undermines the whole thing. They're never portrayed as being close. Venom never spends time with any of them, except that one cutscene you can only get if morale is low. Sure, there's the laughable "beat me up plz" when running around Mother Base, but that's hardly bonding. Not to mention utterly boring after the first time. Mother Base being huge but completely derelict doesn't help the game at all either.
The Boss is genuinely emotionally affecting because you bond with her throughout the game, in various ways. Her deception makes you feel deceived, and her continued abuse of you makes you, the player, want to kill her. Then you begin to have doubts during her speech, until you learn the truth. This is how you write an emotional relationship between characters. There is absolutely nothing like this in MGSV. Venom's guilt over Paz is somewhat forced too since he didn't really know her and had no reason not to absolutely despise her considering what she tried to do.