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[Sumio Mondo]

Not to mention that Kojima wanted to quit the MGS series after MGS3, and was pretty much forced back onto MGS4(IIRC). Then he just seemed to focus primarily in gameplay mechanics after that compared to story.

He said at the time that he received death threats from fans to work on MGS4 as Director. He also wanted somebody else to direct MGS3 but says that the team were struggling with the game so he came on as Director for that.

 

[duckroll]

Okay, is this from Document of MGS2? Link? Either way, that sounds pretty minimal. He only worked on two games and they were both pretty divisive. I did like Act 3 though.

Nojiri wrote and directed Ghost Babel and both MG Ac!d games. He's a cool dude.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

He said at the time that he received death threats from fans to work on MGS4 as Director. He also wanted somebody else to direct MGS3 but says that the team were struggling with the game so he came on as Director for that.

Yeah...it's been obvious that he wanted to exit MGS with 2. IIRC he wanted the ending of that one to be left alone, he didn't want to continue Solid Snakes story.

Nojiri wrote and directed Ghost Babel and both MG Ac!d games. He's a cool dude.

The Acid games had such fun gameplay. I'd kill for a game like that again.

 

[Ratrat]

Nojiri wrote and directed Ghost Babel and both MG Ac!d games. He's a cool dude.

And Neverdead! I've only heard good things about Ghost Babel and Acid 2, but was wondering about his influence on the mainline games. Which seems even weaker an argument than the one posed in the op.

 

[KOMANI]

Okay, is this from Document of MGS2? Link? Either way, that sounds pretty minimal. He only worked on two games and they were both pretty divisive. I did like Act 3 though.

You only asked me for those two games. If you want to know, then just use a search engine.

 

[KOMANI]

Nojiri wrote and directed Ghost Babel and both MG Ac!d games. He's a cool dude.

Just wanted to add... Murata helped Nojiri come up with the premise of Ghost Babel.

 

[Jonneh3003]

I felt 4 was a great way to wrap up the series but I find it very hard to replay (watching all cut scenes). Peace Walker was pretty damn good and best enjoyed as a PSP title in my opinion, though the story felt more like an introduction to MGS5. MGS5 was all over the place. The vast majority of missions were the same with little variation, the needless open world structure clearly inspired by every other AAA game and the super dull and slowly told story. Even recurring characters were dull. It had its moment and the overarching gameplay was enjoyable but it could have been way better if it were a 10 hour linear game.

 

[Ratrat]

You only asked me for those two games. If you want to know, then just use a search engine.

His profile on wikipedia only credits him for 2&4 out of the mainline games. I had no idea he worked on the others.

 

[KOMANI]

His profile on wikipedia only credits him for 2&4 out of the mainline games. I had no idea he worked on the others.

He did scripting for 3, along with 2.

The point being, Kojima Productions had a strong team. Fukushima isn't responsible for the quality of the first 3 Solid titles, but he was a contributing hand. He did the codec scripting, the research, contributed to the plot, helped shape the themes... If Kojima and Shinkawa are the Jordan and Pippen of the team, he's the Rodman ( or Langley, Kerr, Kukoc etc). The team back then was smaller, and only increased during 3 and onwards, so a hit in quality was bound to happen.

 

[Ratrat]

He did scripting for 3, along with 2.

The point being, Kojima Productions had a strong team. Fukushima isn't responsible for the quality of the first 3 Solid titles, but he was a contributing hand. He did the codec scripting, the research, contributed to the plot, helped shape the themes... If Kojima and Shinkawa are the Jordan and Pippen of the team, he's the Rodman ( or Langley, Kerr, Kukoc etc). The team back then was smaller, and only increased during 3 and onwards, so a hit in quality was bound to happen.

Drop in quality is subjective. What I want to know is what exactly can be attributed to who. And anything to back up this 'Heart of the series' and 'true mastermind' narrative. I might have misinterpretted your original post as it seems you don't actually think that.
For now though, the only thing concrete and unrefutable is fewer codecs.

Some people see validation of this speculation by the fact that Blaustein was not never involved with the series after MGS1, and Kojima then picked translators who did more faithful adaptations.

Why did they make Raiden immediately unlikable by giving him a less masculine, whiny voice?

 

[Chinner]

Do the people who push this Fukushima thing really have any knowledge as to what Fukushima's actual role in the games was in a practical sense? Are there interviews and behind the scenes stuff detailing his personal insight on his work and process? It would be great to see all that if it exists.

If not, what is it based on? A desire to want to believe that there is a logical and simple explanation for declining quality in a creative work? It seems that every time a famous creator releases stuff which decline in quality fans want to reach for some simple universal explanation. Was his earlier work only good because of collaboration with someone else? Maybe that person is the real reason it was good! Was his earlier stuff ghostwritten? Etc. It seems to be hard to accept that people who make good things can also disappoint sometimes. Creative works are a challenge, and keeping up quality over decades is incredibly hard. Some people manage it by doing less. Some people manage it by just being that fucking good (or lucky). Most people struggle. Some just decide to quit while they're ahead. There is no perfect equation where you can go "this was good because A + B - C is the right formula and because the formula changed that explains everything". It can be hard to accept, but that's reality.

There's no real evidence to suggest what Fukushima's actual role was during development, equally with no concrete examples of any of his contributions. it is a sentiment based on coincidence, where a preference of the older games falls hand in hand with Fukushima departure of the franchise. It is basically an opinion, although I do agree the older games are better.

In some instances we can provide specific examples of one person's contribution. For example, Jeremy Blaustein input on MGS1 is seen as positive by the community, even if the source is his own word. As the translator he chose to not do a straight 1:1 translation and instead made some small changes to give the game more flair. He was also involved with giving direction to the voice directors, and helping them get the most out of the script, which he familiar with. Some people see validation of this speculation by the fact that Blaustein was not never involved with the series after MGS1, and Kojima then picked translators who did more faithful adaptations.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Meh, I don't get people's distaste for the audio tapes in V. Yes, it's definitely the least interesting way to give off exposition, but being able to interact with the game while listening to an audio drama is pretty amazing.

 

[Dixon's Jet]

metal gear solid 4 is, bar none, the most personally disappointing game i have ever played.

it's a turgid, festering mess of a video game. everything about it is, to me, metal gear at its absolute worst. everything that made the first three some of my favorite games of all time is gone, with nothing of value to replace it.

i've managed to enjoy every subsequent game a decent bit more than mgs4, but i definitely feel like mgs4 was the breaking point where the series lost something and never got it back.

its always nice to know i'm not alone on this and that these feelings are valid.

Mgs4 and 5 are so horrid that the series is better off without Kojima productions, if it goes on at all.

 

[DocSeuss]

So Fukushima worked on all the worst MGS games. Sounds like he was the problem. MGSV is so much better than the rest.

 

[Hypron]

So Fukushima worked on all the worst MGS games. Sounds like he was the problem. MGSV is so much better than the rest.

He had nothing to do with the gamplay which is the one thing MGSV did better than the rest of the series.

Ahhh I thought you were referring to the Naomi/Mei Ling bits in the actual titled VR Missions game.

I don't see the problem with the MGS2 missions. Why is it some sort of affront to see female models? They're nothing you wouldn't find in a clothing catalogue. The entire thing is light-hearted in nature. I mean for fuck's sake, you've got naked Raiden on the ground, Fatman riding around aimlessly and soldiers and Raiden lying all over the place having been grabbed in the dick by President Johnson.

It's humor. I can't believe I even need to explain this.

You know what I can't believe? That you literally can't understand what people are talking about and/or being dense on purpose. The fact that it's "humour" has exactly 0 impact on the argument. People are trying to push the narrative that the games' sexualisation/objectification of females only started (or increased is a significant manner depending on the poster) after MGS4 (because Fukushima left some might say), and try to paint MGS1-3 as very different in that matter.

This is not the case. It wasn't as bad but it was still there. Just because some (emphasis on the word some) of it was framed as humour doesn't make a difference, it was still there.

 

[Tizoc]

I only skimmed the first post at work but gonna read it in full now.
Thanks for making this OP, I was not aware of the other 2 in the thread title, but the way I interpeted it from my skimming is this
Kojma= Jeph Loeb
Fukushima= Tim Sale

 

[NateDog]

Excellent points. A lot of these issues are present in the MGS/2 but much less so.

Haven't read through the whole thread (just the OP) but I agree, this is the only thing that makes me question it. MGS4 marked an enormous change and arguably where it all came to a head (and Peace Walker and MGSV continued that), but there was also the effect of people such as Ryan Payton and then general Westernisation of the game. But MGS2 did have a good bit of the things that appeared later on, but then again if Murata was there at that time then perhaps that would explain it: he did have an effect on some of the choices made but until Fukishima left he couldn't make all the changes he wanted. The enormous push towards prequels and the new-found obsession with Big Boss, and the desire to make EVERYTHING from MGS3 so important in MGS4 (and thus the "ending" of the series) is something I'd like to be explained myself. Looking back it just felt jarring at how big a change like that came in.

 

[Alienous]

You know what I can't believe? That you literally can't understand what people are talking about and/or being dense on purpose. The fact that it's "humour" has exactly 0 impact on the argument. People are trying to push the narrative that the games' sexualisation/objectification of females only started (or increased is a significant manner depending on the poster) after MGS4 (because Fukushima left some might say), and try to paint MGS1-3 as very different in that matter.

This is not the case. It wasn't as bad but it was still there. Just because some (emphasis on the word some) of it was framed as humour doesn't make a difference, it was still there.

The sexualization of the female characters did exist before MGS4, it just happened to better written characters, and a smaller percentage of the female characters.

Characters like the B&B unit and Quiet simply did not exist in the series prior to MGS4. MGS4 is the start of when Kojima introduced female models who pose for the player. But given that Peace Walker isn't quite that bad I think it's more because technology allowed him to do that, rather than the lack of Fukushima.

I think the technology, coupled with the fact that most of the characters post-MGS3 are written more poorly, makes the sexual objectification appear that much worse.

 

[Ratrat]

The sexualization of the female characters did exist before MGS4, it just happened to better written characters, and a smaller percentage of the female characters.

Characters like the B&B unit and Quiet simply did not exist in the series prior to MGS4. MGS4 is the start of when Kojima introduced female models who pose for the player. But given that Peace Walker isn't quite that bad I think it's more because technology allowed him to do that, rather than the lack of Fukushima.

I think the technology, coupled with the fact that most of the characters post-MGS3 are written more poorly, makes the sexual objectification appears that much worse.

They did. They were just confined to Shinkawa's art. Eva's breasts jiggle in MGS3's menu much like Quiet's, you can zoom in and move the camera etc. I think its pretty obvious that its just more jarring now that the graphics are more realistic and that the games have been more serious in tone.

 

[DevilFox]

You can't pretend to make a point saying that Fukushima in Kojima's place would make a mess. I believe that too since he's a writer and the other is a game designer.

Still waiting for anything of note to be posted. Where's the op?
Its just a list of complaints that are somehow linked or attributed to the lack of Fukushima without anything to back it up.

I was sleeping.
I didn't open this thread to force my assumption on you, I did it to share our opinions as to why MGS changed so drastically after MGS Portable Ops, if you think it did, and why.
It's pretty obvious we'll never know from the sources since our journalists prefer to ask Kojima what he eats rather than asking some interesting questions, we can only do some math on our own and search for good info.
Yes, I do believe Fukushima was a better support for Kojima than Murata is but I also believe Kojima needed a good co writer with MGS4-V more than he did with MGS1-3 due to his lack of passion (or fucks given) about the saga. At the same time I wonder if he even cared to have a good co writer and make sense of the overall because when you see the results, the exaggerations, and you listen to what he says and his lies, it seems like he didn't.
There can be different reasons. I look at the writers since most of what happened is, in my opinion, due to different narrative choices: the pen, after all, is the very starting point for everything else. Now, if you see the credits you'll see a "STAFF" section before anything else that, I suppose, are like the "Leads" in western productions and the major writers are Kojima, Fukushima and Murata and only one of them left just before shit started to go down. His name under "Written by" and "Setting research/justification" leads me to believe he helped to shape the MGS I liked. I'm not saying he's the true and sole reason of MGS success, that's bullshit. Then there's Nojiri but I didn't mention him as he worked on Ghost Babel and Acid with Fukushima but was never credited as Writer for the main saga as far as I remember.
And while I can accept that MGS4 was a false step for the reasons already stated, it doesn't explain what were they thinking with Peace Walker and V.

As far as Meryl's panties go, use the same viewpoint that you're using to judge Naomi's design in MGS4 with that. What purpose does Meryl being in panties serve? It's the exact same reason as seeing Naomi's cleavage. Or the same reason why Sniper Wolf's cleavage is exposed. And why Fortune wears a leotard. Kojima's never tried to hide that he's a perv, nor has it been hidden in any way in his games. That's always front and center to some degree. You can argue that he started going more in that direction with later games, which is true, but acting like it never happened in the early games is just completely false. It's literally always been there ins the exact same ways that it is now.

What? No, lol, we disagree on everything >.< seems like you look at their clothes and nothing else matter, context or intentions. How can Meryl or Wolf be compared to any female character post MGS Portable Ops is something I don't understand. I didn't read all of News Bot posts but so far I agree with him totally.
Look, I can't use the same viewpoint because Naomi is designed and dressed to be liked, a sexy and beautiful female doctor with a skirt, nice tits, long legs and heels, that's the only intention. Is there anyone to seduce? Nope. Is the dress suitable for the environment? Hell no, it's a battlefield! Meryl's shirt wasn't either but at least it gave her the "I'm strong" look. Naomi is dressed like that even on the airplane with a sweatshirt over the shirt, it doesn't make sense! The only thing Meryl in MGS1 and Naomi in MGS4 have in common, is Snake's reaction but, then again, it's ok to tell a joke about Meryl's ass that allowed you to recognize her, I think it's pretty honest and funny, but to drop a cigarette on purpose to allow the player to watch Naomi's panties by pressing R1? What the fuck is that?
There's a big difference between characters like Wolf or The Boss and Mei Ling (MGS4) or Quiet in my opinion. I'm not saying it was perfect before (see Fortune) and obviously I respect your opinion, but I don't share it one bit, sorry.

The sexualization of the female characters did exist before MGS4, it just happened to better written characters, and a smaller percentage of the female characters.

Characters like the B&B unit and Quiet simply did not exist in the series prior to MGS4. MGS4 is the start of when Kojima introduced female models who pose for the player. But given that Peace Walker isn't quite that bad I think it's more because technology allowed him to do that, rather than the lack of Fukushima.

I think the technology, coupled with the fact that most of the characters post-MGS3 are written more poorly, makes the sexual objectification appears that much worse.

And this too, I agree.

 

[Ratrat]

Well, I'll agree that he didn't seem to give a fuck about V's story as its significantly less talky in spite of having three writers. Peace Walker was made for an entirely different audience. It's tonally completely different than Ground Zeroes.

Anyway, I can recognize the elements I like in MGS and see them in Policenauts. I cant see them in Freedom Wars. I'm inclined to believe he supplemented Kojima's story rather than dictating it. 4&5 are still good games.


And as Duckroll said, there are a ton of other elements, new staff, hardware, westernization etc on top of Kojima flat out not wanting to be restricted to making the same type of game repeatedly.

 

[Dremark]

I really don't agree at all. In all honesty out of the main line games, I'd say I feel the one that feels the most out of place is probably Snake Eater aside from Peace Walker. Mainly because Snake Eater has a fairly straight forward story line and theme.

To touch on the main points quickly:

> 1) THE THEME OF ANTI AMERICANISM TOOK A BACK SEAT

I don't really agree with this. To an extent The patriots/Cipher sort of became it's own entity, I think that's more the result of MGS3 and accommodating it's story line it made the patriots/cipher it's own entity rather than an extension of the US retroactively.

> 2) THE SAGA EMBRACED (THE WORST OF) HOLLYWOOD

Kojima's games have always had a heavy Hollywood influence and i don;t really see any significant difference in cinematic style/homages/etc as the series went on other than what the tech allowed him to do.

> I'm not considering The Twin Snakes because we all know that game doesn't exist.

I sort of agree on this, it exists but it's not really Kojima's game. He had Ryuhei Kitamura direct it and when he asked him how close to the original to keep it, Kojima told him to "destroy it", so I'll agree that it's irrelevant in this case.

> 3) WOMEN'S DEPICTION GOT WORSE

The females in 3 are pretty heavily sexualized too, aside from 4 and 5 I'd say it's the worst offender in that category actually. You could argue that the sexualization in 3 had actual purpose though and that I would agree with. Honestly I thought the female characters in PW were fine as were 2, 1 was rahter good in this as well, but all the females were pretty heavily sexualized so it really depends on how you want to weigh things.

> 4) YEAH! SCIENCE BITCH! aka "we need to explain this!"

This I'll agree with but I think he was mainly catering to the players as those seemed to be pretty heavy complaints about 2 in particular.

> 5) SOMEONE STOP CARING ABOUT LORE AND CONSISTENCY

Kojima always played fast and loose with continuity. Honestly 3 is pretty bad in this respect to, retconning what we knew about the patriot's Big Boss losing his eye in the 80s, etc.

> 6) IDEAS THAT DIDN'T WORK ANYMORE

Honestly I liked the the medic twist and thought "Shining Lights, Even in Death" was one of the more powerful parts of the series.

I'll agree that the no place to hide", "different allies", "you can decide to kill or not to kill" stuff Kojima talked about for 4 ended up being irrelevant, but this isn't something new either. 3 had it's whole survival theme which ended up having the player fiddle around in slow clunky menus for camo, food and field surgery. If anything it ended up detracting from the game and added nothing of value to it. Kojima also made some pretty crazy statements about how the jungles in MGS3 would work but unfortunately I cannot find them.

Ultimately it's game development, you need to figure out what works and what doesn't as the games goes on. Either the faction stuff in MGS4 didn't work out well and got cut, or it ended up being so subtle I don't even know if it made the final product. I don't know if Kojima just made a bad call with the survival features in MGS3, if he was rushing to get the game out the door or just needed something to make the game stand out from 2, but I think leaving that stuff in was a mistake.

 

[MrRudiMentary]

I played all the canon Solid games for the first time last year and there's definitely a drop in narrative quality after 3. I had no idea about Fukushima's involvement but it doesn't surprise me at all. Murata was the lead writer on ZoE2 and that hardly has a great narrative.

 

[Ishida]

Mgs4 and 5 are so horrid that the series is better off without Kojima productions, if it goes on at all.

As much as I disliked MGSV, no fucking thanks to the bolded.

Kojima or bust.

 

[Mivey]

Mgs4 and 5 are so horrid that the series is better off without Kojima productions, if it goes on at all.

Totally agree. Why would you need a video game developer for a bunch of faux casino gambling machines anyway? Logical move by Konami. Wonder if they could salvage some of the video game stuff for health spas?

 

[Dremark]

Unless someone has insight into how MGS stories are conceived in meetings and preproduction, the Fukushima thing seems really silly to me. He's one guy out of like five or six people who have helped Kojima write MGS games over the years. Instead why not look atthe overall cultural changes in KojiPro over the years? After MGS3 they started hiring more and more foreigners to diversify the team. Ryan Payton eventually became a producer himself. Several level designers were non-Japanese. Kojima even opened an LA studio for MGSV. Aren't these developments far more likely to have impact on how they make games rather than the departure of one writer?

I'm only glanced over this thread aside form the OP, but I'll agree and think that people are jumping to conclusions here.

My personal take on it is that the different games were made for different reasons and has different objectives.

Metal Gear Solid 3 was a response to MGS2, people were unhappy playing with a character like Raiden and confused by and/or rejected the complex story line. He went with a more straightforward story and had people play as a character who was more or less identical to Snake.

Metal Gear Solid 4 was born out of fan demand for closure to the series. Even though Kojima has stated he didn't want to make a game set after 2 or give details on the patriots he caved. It was mainly a fan service game to wrap things up.

Peace Walker he experimented with the Monster Hunter Co-Op and went for a younger audience for some reason. I recall he said he worked on this game with younger staff, perhaps that's why, I don't really know.

I think with Metal Gear Solid V he was trying to show that Japan was still capable of being relevant and making AAA level games. There isn't a huge amount of context at this point as he was silenced months before the game came out.

Anyway there's a lot of factors that led to these games ending up the way they did, I think what you and I wrote are both pretty valid, but assuming that someone who we don't really know the role of and giving him credit doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[News Bot]

As much as I disliked MGSV, no fucking thanks to the bolded.

Kojima or bust.

Get a different writer, reboot, and we're good. The universe is unsalvageable. They can keep releasing Revengeance-like titles if they want to prolong it.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

This is seriously my least favorite plot twist of the entire series. It's especially REALLY dumb when you consider that 3's radio crew weren't as involved in the main plot as in 1 or 2. They really were just support characters for the most part.

Yup, it's pretty dumb. At least MGSV makes that twist somewhat more plausible. It's still not a great twist, but I'm more willing to accept it now. The foreshadowing of control and the character exchanges in the truth tapes make the whole idea a lot easier to swallow.

 

[News Bot]

Yup, it's pretty dumb. At least MGSV makes that twist somewhat more plausible. It's still not a great twist, but I'm more willing to accept it now. The foreshadowing of control and the character exchanges in the truth tapes make the whole idea a lot easier to swallow.

Major Zero's fanboyism with The Boss isn't so much as hinted at in MGS3 either. They just happened to work together briefly. He never displays any major affection for her like Big Boss does.

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

metal gear solid 4 is, bar none, the most personally disappointing game i have ever played.

it's a turgid, festering mess of a video game. everything about it is, to me, metal gear at its absolute worst. everything that made the first three some of my favorite games of all time is gone, with nothing of value to replace it.

i've managed to enjoy every subsequent game a decent bit more than mgs4, but i definitely feel like mgs4 was the breaking point where the series lost something and never got it back.

its always nice to know i'm not alone on this and that these feelings are valid.

Mgs4 and 5 are so horrid that the series is better off without Kojima productions, if it goes on at all.

WTF am I reading?

Metal Gear Solid 4 is the best game in the series (it's either that or MGS2). It's very rare that a series is able to tie up a long running story so satisfyingly and bid farewell to it's main character on such an emotional note.

The ending is so good that it's better to just pretend Revengeance (which takes place after MGS4) is just fan fiction.

 

[News Bot]

WTF am I reading?

Metal Gear Solid 4 is the best game in the series (it's either that or MGS2). It's very rare that a series is able to tie up a long running story so satisfyingly and bid farewell to it's main character on such an emotional note.

The ending is so good that it's better to just pretend Revengeance (which takes place after MGS4) is just fan fiction.

Revengeance is better than MGS4. As a game and a story. There is nothing satisfying about MGS4's ham-fisted resolutions and it's infantile tone.

 

[Dremark]

Get a different writer, reboot, and we're good. The universe is unsalvageable. They can keep releasing Revengeance-like titles if they want to prolong it.

Honestly what would be the point of continuing the series if you're going to ditch everything about it? I'll honestly never understand this logic at all. Might as well just let it die if the name is just being used for marketing purposes.

Yup, it's pretty dumb. At least MGSV makes that twist somewhat more plausible. It's still not a great twist, but I'm more willing to accept it now. The foreshadowing of control and the character exchanges in the truth tapes make the whole idea a lot easier to swallow.

Major Zero's fanboyism with The Boss isn't so much as hinted at in MGS3 either. They just happened to work together briefly. He never displays any major affection for her like Big Boss does.

Yeah that's not actually true, they foreshadowed the MGS3 support staff's later roles and said a bunch of stuff about how much he trusted the Boss.

Honestly I used to have the same outlook on it, but I got told in another thread where another user gave specific examples you can take a look here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175512261&postcount=532

I don't know if they planned the support staff to be the patriots, but it honestly ifts if you take a close look.

WTF am I reading?

Metal Gear Solid 4 is the best game in the series (it's either that or MGS2). It's very rare that a series is able to tie up a long running story so satisfyingly and bid farewell to it's main character on such an emotional note.

The ending is so good that it's better to just pretend Revengeance (which takes place after MGS4) is just fan fiction.

Everyone has different opinions. MGS4 had great gameplay but I was disappointed with the way a lot of things in the story. Having said that I did really appreciate that everything got wrapped up and it really felt like the end of the series. It made it a lot easier to swallow when the series got cut off this way.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Revengeance is better than MGS4. As a game and a story. There is nothing satisfying about MGS4's ham-fisted resolutions and it's infantile tone.

The story is satisfying in MGS4. It'd be better if Kojima had gotten his way and was able to get Otacon/Snake killed in the end. It'd be a dark ending, but a satisfying one. (And again it's hard to blame Kojima for every little thing, since if he had gotten his way Snake/Otacon would've gotten executed)

 

[CenturionKei]

And people are complaining about Rising's story?

What the hell?!

It made me laugh so many times because of how entertaining and over the top it was. Like christ, i'll take Rising's story, over the over pretentious things of late.

 

[News Bot]

Honestly what would be the point of continuing the series if you're going to ditch everything about it? I'll honestly never understand this logic at all. Might as well just let it die if the name is just being used for marketing purposes.

Yeah that's not actually true, they foreshadowed the MGS3 support staff's later roles and said a bunch of stuff about how much he trusted the Boss.

Honestly I used to have the same outlook on it, but I got told in another thread where another user gave specific examples you can take a look here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175512261&postcount=532

I don't know if they planned the support staff to be the patriots, but it honestly ifts if you take a close look.

Everyone has different opinions. MGS4 had great gameplay but I was disappointed with the way a lot of things in the story. Having said that I did really appreciate that everything got wrapped up and it really felt like the end of the series. It made it a lot easier to swallow when the series got cut off this way.

You're not ditching everything about it, though. You're just wiping away all the bullshit and able to make a more focused version. Pretty much what Tomb Raider did, though I'd argue the effectiveness.

What I said about Zero is true. He said he appreciates her as a comrade and a soldier, as I'm sure he does Big Boss. He isn't fanatical about her like MGS4 implies. We don't know how he finds out the truth either and it takes him six years to confer about it with Big Boss, the person most inclined to know more about her. The whole thing just stretches the limits of plausibility for the sake of making everyone connected in some fashion. There are indeed little things in MGS3 that make The Patriots' identities seem more plausible... if you stretch and extrapolate them to their limits.

I don't actually mind The Patriots being the MGS3 support team since the founders are not the "real" Patriots as we know them in MGS2. What I find bad about it is how their characterizations are handled, which is to say, either completely warped or not given one at all.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I think the series jumped the shark with mgs3. Strangely enough it was also the most enjoyable in the series and is still lauded as possibly the best, and justifiably so. The story became a little less self serious though, much to the detriment of the rest of the games (imo). I feel mgs2 is at least still in the same realm of the 1st game, but afterwards there seemed to be a paradigm shift. I hadn't really considered fukushims departure. I did however think that Murata becoming more involved gave way to the more japanese tropes and nonsensical stuff in the series since 3. But that's just conjecture on my part. Depiction of women in these games definitely got worse and I think it's a problem with lots of Japanese creators, be it videogames, anime or what have you. Pandering to the cosplay crowd, which is exactly what Quiet's depiction boils down to, is quite frankly gross as fuck.

 

[Dremark]

The story is satisfying in MGS4. It'd be better if Kojima had gotten his way and was able to get Otacon/Snake killed in the end. It'd be a dark ending, but a satisfying one. (And again it's hard to blame Kojima for every little thing, since if he had gotten his way Snake/Otacon would've gotten executed)

It would have been a more appropriate ending and would have had Snake mirror the Boss even further. Admittedly it would have been a huge downer though so i can see why his staff were against it.

You're not ditching everything about it, though. You're just wiping away all the bullshit and able to make a more focused version. Pretty much what Tomb Raider did, though I'd argue the effectiveness.

What I said about Zero is true. He said he appreciates her as a comrade and a soldier, as I'm sure he does Big Boss. He isn't fanatical about her like MGS4 implies. There are indeed little things in MGS3 that make The Patriots' identities seem more plausible... if you stretch and extrapolate them to their limits.

I don't actually mind The Patriots being the MGS3 support team since the founders are not the "real" Patriots as we know them in MGS2. What I find bad about it is how their characterizations are handled, which is to say, either completely warped or not given one at all.

You'd be making another Metal Gear game in name alone and maybe copying the gameplay concepts. Serves little purpose other than marketing.

What you said about Zero is not true, he said he trusted her more than his own family, that's quite a bit further than just appreciating her as comrade and a soldier.

As far as characterization goes there is a large jump from MSG3 to 4 but they made i plausible and filled in the blanks after, I don't really have an issue with the twist, but yeah they had to retcon the list at the end of MGS2 to be something else.

 

[Jawmuncher]

The story is satisfying in MGS4. It'd be better if Kojima had gotten his way and was able to get Otacon/Snake killed in the end. It'd be a dark ending, but a satisfying one. (And again it's hard to blame Kojima for every little thing, since if he had gotten his way Snake/Otacon would've gotten executed)

Agreed, really didn't care for Big Boss is still alive and loves you son.

 

[News Bot]

It would have been a more appropriate ending and would have had Snake mirror the Boss even further. Admittedly it would have been a huge downer though so i can see why his staff were against it.

You'd be making another Metal Gear game in name alone and maybe copying the gameplay concepts. Serves little purpose other than marketing.

What you said about Zero is not true, he said he trusted her more than his own family, that's quite a bit further than just appreciating her as comrade and a soldier.

As far as characterization goes there is a large jump from MSG3 to 4 but they made i plausible and filled in the blanks after, I don't really have an issue with the twist, but yeah they had to retcon the list at the end of MGS2 to be something else.

I'd trust a friend over my own family. Doesn't mean I worship them or feel they have some groundbreaking worldview, I just trust in their abilities over my family's. That's all Zero really says about her. There's no indication he even knows what she thinks about the world at all and he never discusses her with Big Boss during the game other than repeatedly reminding him that he needs to kill her.

While it's true that it has been made more plausible since MGS4, that's not really a good thing. Going backwards to try and justify a plot twist that fell flat isn't a sign of competent writing. It's a sign of desperation. MGSV is really just one big attempt to tie together as many plot points as possible because Kojima has this weird fixation on making everything and everyone connected. Huey's ludicrous personality shift is one example, since it was more than likely only written to justify getting him away from Big Boss in the first place and into his death by drowning. Kojima fucked up by affiliating him with Big Boss at all and scrambled to fix it. His fascination with connecting everything weakens his older (better) plots. Otacon and Snake's friendship is cheapened because they're no longer just two survivors of an incredible situation. Instead now they're just repeating history as if by fate. Building up Strangelove as a lesbian and then suddenly making her bisexual for a man she actively dislikes just to facilitate Otacon's conception is fucking embarrassing too.

Kojima's fear of using the supernatural anymore makes a lot of his contrived plot points much harder to swallow. We were fine with it in MGS1-3. But suddenly he decided we all needed goofy, half-baked attempts at pseudoscience to handle anything.

The MGS2 list is just the old Philosophers Wiseman's Committee, who all died before MGS3.

 

[bluethree]

Whether Fukushima's absence was the cause or not, Im really scratching my head when it comes to people saying the series has always been this stupid and inconsistent. No one is arguing that the older games were literary masterpieces, but come on.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

And people are complaining about Rising's story?

What the hell?!

It made me laugh so many times because of how entertaining and over the top it was. Like christ, i'll take Rising's story, over the over pretentious things of late.

Eh, it's easy to be over the top for the sake of entertainment. That way nothing ever fails to hit because it's "supposed" to be stupid and over the top. It takes more courage and skill to take your own story seriously. Stupid things stand out more in mainline MGS games because the story takes itself seriously, which I respect way more than Revengeance's approach of leaning super heavily into the anime aspect of MGS. And oppositely, when Revengeance tries to get serious, I just go "yeah whatever, just show me more crazy shit because your story and characters have zero depth."

 

[RedSwirl]

A version of MGS3 with controls a little bit more like MGSV (reasonably balanced to MGS3's enemies and level design, and not trying to run on the 3DS) would probably be the perfect Metal Gear game in my opinion.

 

[Cropduster89]

4 was where it all went wrong for me, and where my time as an MGS 'fan' ended. Simultaneously the dumbest and most long-winded and self-serious thing in the series.

For all it's problems I enjoyed 5 a lot even if the narrative was a train wreck. The amazing stealth sandbox held it up and that's fine by me. The fact that my investment in story had already been killed off by 4 and Peace Walker probably helped.

But regardless, nothing lasts forever, and the memories of having my mind blown playing MGS1,2,3 for the first time will live forever.

 

[Raonak]

The series jumps the shark in every iteration.

You can easily point to any game in the series and claim this is where it went of the rails, from MGS1's heavy enphasis on cutscenes (compared to MG1/2), MGS2s bonkers story, even MGS3's expansion/retconning of BB's past to MGS4's nanomachines and V's lack of story

 

[Edzi]

The series jumps the shark in every iteration.

You can easily point to any game in the series and claim this is where it went of the rails, from MGS1's heavy enphasis on cutscenes (compared to MG1/2), MGS2s bonkers story, even MGS3's expansion/retconning of BB's past to MGS4's nanomachines and V's lack of story

Nah, I think most fans can agree that something major changed after 3. 1-3 all have a very similar feel despite having some pretty major changes between games, but all mainline entries after 3 have felt like pretty major departures from the original formula. 4 was a hybrid of sorts, and PW and V changed the structure completely.

 

[Gorillaz]

I think Kojima has secretly(maybe it's not even a secret at this point honestly) got tired of Metal Gear and over the years he has just flown whatever bullshit he can think of in the moment as plot points. Like he probably wanted to really move on after 2 but between Konami wanting to double down and Kojima/Kojipro's drive to micromanage and explain every little detail, they went forward.

Like I still say MGS4 was him getting whatever other acting bug he had and scratching that itch to the fullest, and MGS5 was him basically wanting to make a completely different new IP but couldn't so he figured to just put it to the MG name and add the lore of the series to it and call it V.


There is this real Kojima/Kanye connection in terms of what they view of their older projects and possibly the industry they work in.

 

[Mexen]

Damn good thread, OP.

I think MGS3 is the best one. Beautiful blend of realism and fantasy. Plot is believable and pacing is top notch.
That writing team needed to craft a much better world for V than what we got.

 

[BBboy20]

Base building being handled entirely in a menu didn't help any of this, and wandering around Mother Base is one of the most boring video game experiences imaginable

I might have that much of an imagination then.

The Sandinistas are the ones who hailed him as Vic Boss. Not his own men, though apparently the Sandinistas joined MSF... but nothing comes of this.

A MSF rookie said it first.

All of those things, minus the toy soldiers, define their characters. TPP doesn't define the "mooks." Mosquito is the only one who has some sort of life of his own at all.

But on your original point, no, I didn't think of them as characters the few times I used them on missions. They were skins, nothing more. I didn't conjure a personality for them in my head.

So I do have that much of an imagination then.

Shining Lights was better than killing the boss tbh

:|

so you're totally willing to completely ignore the lengthy codec convos outlining each woman's backstory in MGS4? shit. the bosses in MGS4 are largely more fleshed out than in MGS3

Telling, not showing. A lot of character backgrounds were told be said characters themselves.

stop moving the goals posts. this is the point of this conversation: there is no discernible difference between the sexualization and portrayal of women between MGS1-3 and 3/PW/V.

You seem to have a totally different world view if you believe the "White Room" in MGS4 is somehow the equivalence of Sniper Wolf's cleavage.

Get a different writer, reboot, and we're good. The universe is unsalvageable. They can keep releasing Revengeance-like titles if they want to prolong it.

Putting stock in Konami?

 

[News Bot]

Putting stock in Konami?

The franchise, save Rising type titles, is pretty much dead. It's not so much I trust Konami, more that I just don't care.

 

[Vagrant]

Before I answer the main question posed by OP, commentary on his points:
On point one: you literally go into a a US base and can kill marines who are operating a secret black site for interrogating prisoners in GZ.

On point two: MGS2 has stupid Hollywood inspired cutscenes everywhere. Is it fair to complain about MGSV lens flares and slow-motion when there was pointless Matrix slow-mo cuts are everywhere 2, for example? It isn't anything new and is severe nostalgia goggles to think the series hasn't always aped flashy hollywood trends in filmmaking.

On point three and four, those are definitely true.

On point five, retcons have a huge part of the series since MGS1, but I get what you mean with world tech coherency so I get your point and can agree with that much at least. Although, Portable has some of the worst retcons in the series, so its' tech consistency is about all it has to me in that department.

Point six, I think Raiden and Venom have different goals and a straight up comparison how you felt about each isn't ideal. Raiden is to showcase a lack of player control, and that Raiden rejecting the player's control because they are different. Venom IS the player. He is supposed to be as much of a blank slate as possible to encourage the player to feel they are one and the same. You can argue that you don't feel they did a good job at that, but a defined and well developed Venom would defeat the whole purpose of Venom existing. Might as well just leave it Big Boss in that case. Also I felt way worse about my men dying in MGSV than other characters in the series because they were a resource. Shit, I just shot an S-ranked guy in the head, 300 of my guys died from a plague and I leveled down. That made their deaths sting more than the average MGS death to me. More so than any of the bosses in MGS1, or say Olga or the bomb tech in MGS2. Because it was actually tied to game mechanics. For me, the Boss' death was great because her death was tied to game mechanics and how Big Boss felt about it. Not because of her character development. I felt these same things in MGSV but mileage may vary.

Anyway enough nitpicking, onto your main point about the trends found in the series. My take on what happened with MGS and Kojima: Kojima felt pressure (he has said as much in interviews) to keep working on the series even after the story he wanted to tell in that universe was over. Fans begged for plot explanations, etc, that didn't need explaining. He gave them what he thought they wanted in MGS4. With MGSV He had game ideas he wanted to explore and did so in the sandbox Konami allowed him to be in with the budget he wanted. Hence project ogre being an MGS title. He got to explore the gameplay side of stuff he wanted and the story stuff was phoned in, a means to an end. The things he seemed passionate about in MGSV are obvious. He liked the idea of playing with emergent gameplay, and what that means to a game director versus the player control. He liked toying with the horror game elements. He still had passion for the technical craft of producing and directing cutscenes. Language stuff, both as a feature in the gameplay and in the story. He likes playing with player expectations (moby dick studios). Oh and he's still a massive pervert. He used the story as an another vehicle to mirror the gameplay ideas he had with Venom, and did what he needed to fit it into the lore. Basically, less to do with co-director, and more to do with him not having passion to tell more stories in this universe so he started to lose interest in that aspect, and making it cohesive other than doing what he could to sate the requests of fans as he interpreted them, since he himself lost interest in it. Instead he put focus on the things he was passionate about. I think the whole Fukushima thing stems a lot from various pissed off fans that have an their own idea of what the series should be, and what makes it great and trying to rationalize why the later games don't seem to match those expectations.

Anyway, other than answering the OP's question, I want to comment on this statement:

I must confess that with MGSV being such a huge disappointment, I've questioned Kojima's talent as a developer. He can be great, especially as a game designer, but I think he should be more modest, honest (all the lies before MGSV, why?) and stop trying to prove himself as the master auteur of the gaming world because there are devs out there that are doing things better and more efficiently. I mean, if even Cage realized he needs more writers in the team, it can't be too hard for Kojima to take a couple of steps back, right?

This is so weird to me. Why should he have to limit himself and hand things over to others? So people can get their expectations served better? What made MGS so unique is he did hold the reigns and took it where he wanted, for better or worse. He could add whatever goofy quirks he wanted and was able to do things like Raiden or focus on emergent gameplay vs. the famous cutscene heavy and scripting. If you want some Marvel revolving door game team where they bring in good yet safe talent there's a ton out out there for you as well. So i don't get why we shouldn't have someone attempting to be auteur in gaming when that's a fine thing to aspire to an a really safe AAA industry. Especially weird to want that when, to me and many others, MGSV has wonderful game design outside of losing steam in the second chapter where clearly the cord was pulled on funding. Up to chapter 31 is an amazing game experience and certainly in line with the series bests, quality wise.