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[NoctisVsStar]

Is there a Female character in the Metal gear universe Hideo Kojima didnt sexualize?

Ehh you could say rose but you could make her boobs bounce in mgs4 lol and Meryl pexilated underwear scene or her ass jiggle in a soldier uniform. It's typical Kojima doesn't bother me tho, he's pervy by nature he just won't say it straight it up.. I mean he wanted the boss boobs out.

 

[The Omega Man]

From the man who created one of the most amazing female video game character (The Boss), MGS3 is still my favorite game because of this and other things, was this a fluke?
How the mighty has fallen.

 

[flkraven]

The main problem I have personally is people (GAF) are only judging characters by the way they look, the color of Thier skin, or how they dress. Not for the characters themselves or how the world they anhabbit treats them..

Yes, Quiet looks ridiculous. Yes, Cydny attire's is overkill. But the characters are interesting (sometimes anyways) and they are treated respectfully in these games.

Just like the upcoming Days Gone. It's pretty hypocritical to judge the main character by his looks alone and not what his personality is or what he brings to the table. Yet if that was a female, or a minority , it wouldn't matter how dull , dry or dare I say "generic" that character is.

Yes, more variety and representation is a good thing. But the 'push back' people aren't doing themselves any favors by shouting "teh generic white guy" without knowing anything about the characters themselves..

Isn't that like, Not what we're supposed to be doing?

The problem is Kojima did a bad job, that's why people are criticizing him. Notice how the handling of Quiet gets far more hate than say, how Saint's Row handles their female characters (Despite the fact that Saints Row's character models are just as sexualized)?

 

[StarskySilverz]

It's very interesting when I get on NeoGaf and see arguments mostly by men about these controversial characters, meanwhile my girlfriend and other female friends that play games love the characters that Gaf thinks are insulting. Kojima should just make whoever he wants to make, you don't have to defend it either. If it's that important to you, go ahead and miss out on another one of his inevitable masterpieces.

 

[RM8]

The main problem I have personally is people (GAF) are only judging characters by the way they look, the color of Thier skin, or how they dress. Not for the characters themselves or how the world they anhabbit treats them..

Yes, Quiet looks ridiculous. Yes, Cydny attire's is overkill. But the characters are interesting (sometimes anyways) and they are treated respectfully in these games.

Just like the upcoming Days Gone. It's pretty hypocritical to judge the main character by his looks alone and not what his personality is or what he brings to the table. Yet if that was a female, or a minority , it wouldn't matter how dull , dry or dare I say "generic" that character is.

Yes, more variety and representation is a good thing. But the 'push back' people aren't doing themselves any favors by shouting "teh generic white guy" without knowing anything about the characters themselves..

Isn't that like, Not what we're supposed to be doing?

I think criticism aimed at the visual design of characters in video games is just as justified. I mostly don't understand why people try so hard to silence criticism, it's super weird.

 

[AfroDust]

So does GAF love or hate Kojima now?

 

[flkraven]

It's very interesting when I get on NeoGaf and see arguments mostly by men about these controversial characters, meanwhile my girlfriend and other female friends that play games love the characters that Gaf thinks are insulting. Kojima should just make whoever he wants to make, you don't have to defend it either. If it's that important to you, go ahead and miss out on another one of his inevitable masterpieces.

This 'If you don't like it play something else' argument can just go fuck off already.

 

[Audioboxer]

No my point is that if The Boss was 300 pounds she would've washed out in basic training. If your only criticism about these characters is "but they're skinny," kindly stop wasting my time.

Would like to have a word. The king of swinging and climbing.

 

[Alienous]

I have to divide Metal Gear into pre and post Tomokazu Fukushima.

Meryl, Olga, Emma Emmerich, EVA, The Boss - I consider them good characters.

The Beauty & Beast Unit, Naomi 'boobs out now' Hunter, Paz, Quiet - Kojima needs someone who can tell him no.

 

[Kindekuma]

So does GAF love or hate Kojima now?

Love hate relationship? One hand the dude makes amazing games and trailers. Other hand it's some questionable stuff like themes and characters. Seems like everyone holds him to a high standard of quality because he's recognized in the industry as being one of the best of the best.

 

[BDGAME]

If he hiring Master Oda for this work, I can believe. Oda was capable of creating a adult dressing baby's clothes and give a story that make him a cool character at the end.

 

[ScientificPizza]

If you realise those characters are problematic enough that you need to address this in this way, just don't create oversexualised characters

Kojima is mostly a good, good game developer, but when it comes to female characters his success rate is like 0%

 

[Angry Fork]

I don't take Quiet seriously, I point and laugh from outside, especially as people try to convince me that this is sophisticated art and not big budget Onechanbara, lol.

I don't think it's sophisticated art, but it also doesn't represent some downward spiral of society into misogyny. It's just a weird dude who likes writing apocalyptic sci-fi robot anime shit and sexy women in revealing clothing. It's fun for people who enjoy that kind of thing. If it's not for you then it's not for you.

For some reason people don't get that though and think every form of content in every medium needs to boost the morale/social status of every oppressed minority (not that women are a minority, but they are still generally at a disadvantage in society because patriarchy does exist).

And obviously it's fine to care about social/political issues like that, but some of these people take the shit too far into absurdity where logic disappears and no longer justifies what they're saying. Some minorities are more oppressed than others, so be careful and choose the right ones or face the tidal wave of rage from people who can't separate fiction and real life. There is an infinite regression where any group of people can claim they're suffering more than another and suddenly content creators have to satisfy all of their demands, it's really silly.

No, sexually objectification is different from mere sexualization. I would have no problem with sexualization, but that's not what this is. This is objectification. Learn the difference.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/empowered-vs-objectified/

That doesn't completely fit to what MGS, but it mostly does for the purposes of illustrating the difference between objectification and mere sexualization. In a lot of the MGS examples, the women aren't titillating for any particular reason in the game. It's just for the sake of male gaze. The only example that's actually arguable is EVA, who is using her sexuality to try and influence Big Boss. But otherwise, they're just scantily clad for no reason whatsoever except male gaze. And Mei is the worst example of it, since Snake oogles her even though she's dressed relatively normally, which is the pinnacle example of what sexual objectification does.

There is a male gaze and a female gaze. It's called biological attraction. Portraying this in media is very normal. I would care zero if women write male characters that only exist to appeal to women's sexual desires. I wouldn't care at all because it's ok for women to like shirtless/pantless men, all the more power to them. It's really not a scary horrible thing just like porn isn't a scary horrible thing.

 

[Weltall Zero]

So... it can't be both?

I love that you cut out the second sentence of that paragraph, where I precisely said it should be both. Disingenuity in its purest, unadulterated form.

 

[tootie923]

Well the first thing he can do is actually let the female characters talk.

You can't let the vocal parasites loose.

 

[bishopcruz]

I would say "Never change, Kojima", but I don't think he could if he wanted to.

Hey been doing this stuff for nearly 3 decades. Might as well ask Jim Wynorski to make a non exploitation film.

 

[StarskySilverz]

This 'If you don't like it play something else' argument can just go fuck off already.

I'm just saying it's not that serious. I'm black and think that Cole Train is kinda stereotypical but I also don't want him changed at all.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This 'If you don't like it play something else' argument can just go fuck off already.

So can the "but my girlfriend likes it." Shit. It doesn't make any difference that your girlfriend doesn't have a problem with sexist shit. Mine does. Neither matter in the context of discussion. It's literally the "I have a black friend" of gaming.

 

[Tovarisc]

Don't embarrass yourself, Kojima. You already showed in MGSV what your "deep backstories and reasoning" for overly sexualized women are, they are joke.

 

[StarskySilverz]

So can the "but my girlfriend likes it." Shit. It doesn't make any difference that your girlfriend doesn't have a problem with sexist shit. Mine does. Neither matter in the context of discussion?

So fuck her for liking Quiet? And she shouldn't be a God of War fan either? I don't get it...does she have the right to choose what she likes or should we decided?

 

[Euphor!a]

I love that you cut out the second sentence of that paragraph, where I precisely said it should be both. Disingenuity in its purest, unadulterated form.

I cut it because it wasn't relevant, you are suggesting that saying it is a fantasy is not true because the backdrop is all this real world shit. But that has always been what MGS is, a seed of truth that has been twisted into the absurd, into fantasy.

 

[Varg]

Do what you want Kojima. Don't let the crybabies sway you from what you want to make. I'll purchase it day one like always .

 

[Hupsel]

Tbh Kojima is overrated. MGS3 is one of my favorite games of all time and then... then we have MGS4, Portable Ops and the fluke that was MGS5. Seriously, Act 2 was a middle finger to everyone and if it was any other developer the backslash would probably be more harsh.

I still like Kojima and I am looking forward to his works, but hes nowhere near as a master as some people like to think that he is... getting a shit ton of $$$ from Sony now, Geoff Keighley almost crying during his speech directed at Kojima... seriously, wtf lol. Kojima made two amazing MGS games, 1 and 3, the rest are mediocre or bad.

 

[///PATRIOT]

I like sexualized women characters in his games, but as others already said, it's pretty lame he comes up with a lame justification for it.

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

It's very interesting when I get on NeoGaf and see arguments mostly by men about these controversial characters, meanwhile my girlfriend and other female friends that play games love the characters that Gaf thinks are insulting. Kojima should just make whoever he wants to make, you don't have to defend it either. If it's that important to you, go ahead and miss out on another one of his inevitable masterpieces.

And perpetuates the cycle. It's okay to like a person's work but criticize aspects of it. And what does your first sentence even mean. Because it's men other issue should be dismissed?

 

[Bloodporne]

What approximately 50,000 other posters have said so far...why not just fess up to the fact you just like to see some T&A in your games. I mean it's so utterly obvious that it's an 11/10 on the absurdity scale to even pretend like that's not the case.

I don't know anything about Kojima as a person but I always wonder if the guy has a wife or girlfriend or whatever? I mean doesn't he get laid once in a while and while I'm at it doesn't his lady slap the shit out of him when she realizes her grown ass man gets turned on by creating something like Quiet?

 

[Shmuppers]

I demand that my honkers have an Oscar-worthy story behind them

 

[Basketball]

Do what you want Kojima. Don't let the crybabies sway you from what you want to make. I'll purchase it day one like always .

I think pretty much everyone in the thread will

It's a Kojima game

 

[RM8]

So fuck her for liking Quiet? And she shouldn't be a God of War fan either? I don't get it...does she have the right to choose what she likes or she we decided?

Does your girlfriend care about arcade modes in fighting games? I need to know before I complain about Street Fighter V not having an arcade mode. Because I clearly can't criticize something some women like, according to many people in this thread. This is incredible, lol.

 

[StarskySilverz]

And perpetuates the cycle. It's okay to like a person's work but criticize aspects of it. And what does your first sentence even mean. Because it's men other issue should be dismissed?

If it is that important to you, don't buy it. If it offends you and you buy it anyway what kind of message does that portray?

 

[ScientificPizza]

So fuck her for liking Quiet? And she shouldn't be a God of War fan either? I don't get it...does she have the right to choose what she likes or should we decided?

No. Because one female liking these characters doesn't absolve him of criticism. You're taking an argument not even directed at you and making it personal.

 

[Basketball]

I demand that my honkers have an Oscar-worthy story behind them

this man/woman gets it

 

[flkraven]

So fuck her for liking Quiet? And she shouldn't be a God of War fan either? I don't get it...does she have the right to choose what she likes or should we decided?

You used her as a justification why this discussion shouldn't take place, and that people should just go play something else if they don't like it. Crossing Eden was pointing out that your girlfriends opinion is irrelevant to the discussion, since other people's girlfriends may feel differently.

 

[En-ou]

Legendary designer, my ass.

 

[Albo]

Most of the characters you mentioned at least have their own importance to the overall story that goes beyond their physical appearance, and most have their own character arc's/growth. The boss, nyomi, eva, meryl etc. are all characters people liked a lot and it had nothing to do with their physical appearance, that was basically just perv shit for straight gamers (I'm arguing that this is fine and not an existential evil that should be purged). That evens out the sexual stuff and shows Kojima hasn't always written characters like Quiet.

Quiet is basically just filler, but what I'm saying is it's not because Kojima hates women it's because MGS5's story is non-existent and he didn't have any use for such a character. This is proven by the fact that you can kill her early on in the game and never see her again.

How does that even it out? If anything it undermines his work since it doesn't fit in context of the games stories. These games try to have well written characters and stories dealing with serious themes but at the same uneccessary sexualisation that is irreleveant to it and has no purpose other than to pander to horny men.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Ashamed of words and deeds? Ashamed of words and deeds.

 

[Weltall Zero]

No my point is that if The Boss was 300 pounds she would've washed out in basic training. If your only criticism about these characters is "but they're skinny," kindly stop wasting my time.

If any of the characters this thread is criticising (which precisely The Boss is not among) had gone through the super elite special ops training from hell the games imply, you can bet your ass they wouldn't look like Quiet. They would be ripped, men and women alike, and it's very likely neither of them wouldn't have jiggling boobs the size of their heads.

 

[ScientificPizza]

If it is that important to you, don't buy it. If it offends you and you buy it anyway what kind of message does that portray?

You can still enjoy something while having issues with it. You can look at something you look and want it to be better. You're allowed to like flawed things.

 

[StarskySilverz]

No. Because one female liking these characters doesn't absolve him of criticism. You're taking an argument not even directed at you and making it personal.

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

 

[Messofanego]

I wish Kojima would just jerk off in the bathroom beforre attending design meetings for his games.

Kojima never followed the "jerk off, then decide" rule. Sad.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

Nobody is wiping away Kojima's creative freedom. They just want Kojima to listen to criticism and make those changes himself.

 

[KJRS_1993]

So fuck her for liking Quiet? And she shouldn't be a God of War fan either? I don't get it...does she have the right to choose what she likes or should we decided?

I mean. Nobody said any of the above, or anything about what she may or may not have the right to choose, or whatever whatever.
Just that what your girlfriend thinks is a bit irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

I have decided: his characters and storytelling are absolute wank. I'm not stopping him from doing what he does in any way, but I'm more than able to say that (especially if he wants to sell it to me), that his previous work in this aspect is piss poor.

 

[Glass Shark]

We already went through this once before with Quiet, and the ends definitely did not justify the means in that case. Especially since her skimpy outfit was not merely a plot point, but the camera always focuses on her breasts or rear.

 

[RM8]

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

No one can "wipe away his right to creative freedom". Good lord, gamers are terrible at dealing with criticism.

 

[Crossing Eden]

So fuck her for liking Quiet? And she shouldn't be a God of War fan either? I don't get it...does she have the right to choose what she likes or should we decided?

You're missing the point. The only reason people bring up stuff like "but my gf likes this sexist thing" is literally the same reason why a person is compelled to say "I have a black friend." Ofc a woman has the right to choose what they like, BUT, a woman liking a character like Quiet does not absolve Quiet of all the intensely problematic elements surrounding her character design and portrayal.

EDITamn the posts above me were pretty on point with this.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Yeah, sure Kojima. "Deep."

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

I don't understand these circular posts. Yes, it's his right to make whatever he wants. It's my right to criticize it and think what he does is stupid.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

No one is wiping away anyone's rights, they are just trying to hold someone whose work they like to a higher standard

You can frame a pattern of misogyny as an artistic choice if you like, but don't be dismissive of people who aren't willing to do the same

 

[Platy]

So does GAF love or hate Kojima now?

GAF in general still love his games and still go berserk for his stuff.

I personaly always hated him.

But what you need to know is that it is totaly OK to complain about some stuff and still love the game where that thing exists.

No game needs to be 100% perfect to be an awesome game

 

[Nottle]

Meryl, Olga, Fortune, Emma, Rose, Sniper Wolf, the Boss, Strangelove, and EVA give me confidence in this statement.

The characters that do express some sexuality that I listed did so with a goal (Eva was a femme fatal type to seduce people. The boss revealing herself was very unsexual for game because it was demonstrating her maternal nature and the scar.)

Quiet has a poor excuse, Paz was sort of dumb, B AND B is shallow.

 

[flkraven]

I'm saying to let people decided instead of wiping away his right to creative freedom. It's not up to us to decide what belongs in his game or not

And what we are saying is that there is a certain standard or expectation we should have of our designers/developers. We should demand more out of them. And you can't hand wave away things and call it 'creative freedom', since that's just another lazy way of avoiding the discussion. He can have creative freedom, but he has to not-suck at creating female characters. It's not like MGS5 had dozens of healthy, non-sexualized female characters and he just fucked up with Quiet. If in the modern age Kojima is incapable of writing compelling female characters without objectifying them, then it's very difficult to consider him one of the industry's better storytellers.