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[TheKayle]

Nothing, anywhere, has contradicted those specs - as of Feb 2013 EDGE and Digital Foundry both posted articles that dovetail with those specs being true.

well if is like that....thats it

i was just saying that u can have like ekim said multiple design (and i think they had multiple design) and/or modificate ur design ..u have time in 1,5 years and countin (console will go out close to 2014)

ie. OUYA kickstarter opened in Aug 9, 2012 we have already first consoles

sure r different type of machines and produced in different quantity but u can change also the design in something like 2 years

 

[specialguy]

Sigh... C'mon guys, there are some more recent leaks.

We havent heard anything in a couple months though.

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

Southern Islands 10-12 CU chips in the wild are typically clocked at 1ghz at retail (such as 7770 and 7790), with overclocks pressing beyond that (this 7770 is clocked at 1100mhz.) So even a 20% overclock to 960 mhz seems reasonable as it's still less than stock retail 7770/7790.

MS would feel the need to respond to "8GB GDDR5!" hoopla (which remember, didn't exist prior to Sony's event). They also could be getting behind the scenes blowback from devs who feel Durango isn't keeping up. Which is really who they have to answer to. This wouldn't be happening in a vacuum or without reasons to do so.

The baseline for next gen will be Durango/PS4/PC. Durango cant start too lag too much, it just cant. They all have to be targeted with roughly the same assets or it doesn't work.

If I had to guess at anything, I would start at 12Gb DDR3. Like I say, it would be cheap. 16GB would be overkill. 12GB arguably would, but it would allow them to reserve 3GB while still entirely matching or exceeding PS4 with 9GB free at a a minimum. Even if you couldn't efficiently use it all for gfx, it could help with loading times etc, worst case. It would give them something to placate fans and developers alike in the spec wars. It would give them their own "ooh ahh" spec to announce at the event, etc.

 

[rudieboy77]

They did, and Durango is the one they picked.

I think people need to stop dreaming that Microsoft somehow jacked up the power of everything or they are hiding secret sauce in every part of the machine, either accept the rumours or don't but don't try and start another one that they have more powerful machines waiting in the wing when theres 0 indication of this happening.

I think people should stop assuming what the next console will be and wait until May 21st.

 

[TheKayle]

We havent heard anything in a couple months though.

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

Southern Islands 10-12 CU chips in the wild are typically clocked at 1ghz at retail (such as 7770 and 7790), with overclocks pressing beyond that (this 7770 is clocked at 1100mhz. So even a 20% overclock to 960 mhz seems reasonable as it's still less than stock retail 7770/7790.

MS would feel the need to respond to "8GB GDDR5!" hoopla. They also could be getting behind the scenes blowback from devs who feel Durango isn't keeping up. Which is really who they have to answer to. This wouldn't be happening in a vacuum or without reasons to do so.

The baseline for next gen will be Durango/PS4/PC. Durango cant start too lag too much, it just cant. They all have to be targeted with roughly the same assets or it doesn't work.

exactly

 

[Nachtmaer]

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

The only thing that's possible at this point is fiddling with frequencies (same goes for Sony). 12GB would mean a memory controller redesign, so that's a no-no.

 

[ekim]

Increasing clock speeds doesn't need a complete redesign (apart from cooling).
It's also possible MS just disabled CU's which can be always enabled by software.

 

[itsgreen]

We havent heard anything in a couple months though.

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

Southern Islands 10-12 CU chips in the wild are typically clocked at 1ghz at retail (such as 7770 and 7790), with overclocks pressing beyond that (this 7770 is clocked at 1100mhz.) So even a 20% overclock to 960 mhz seems reasonable as it's still less than stock retail 7770/7790.

MS would feel the need to respond to "8GB GDDR5!" hoopla (which remember, didn't exist prior to Sony's event). They also could be getting behind the scenes blowback from devs who feel Durango isn't keeping up. Which is really who they have to answer to. This wouldn't be happening in a vacuum or without reasons to do so.

The baseline for next gen will be Durango/PS4/PC. Durango cant start too lag too much, it just cant. They all have to be targeted with roughly the same assets or it doesn't work.

If I had to guess at anything, I would start at 12Gb DDR3. Like I say, it would be cheap. 16GB would be overkill. 12GB arguably would, but it would allow them to reserve 3GB while still entirely matching or exceeding PS4 with 9GB free at a a minimum. Even if you couldn't efficiently use it all for gfx, it could help with loading times etc, worst case.

Overclocks aren't efficient in terms of power usage/performance.

 

[TheKayle]

The only thing that's possible at this point is fiddling with frequencies (same goes for Sony). 12GB would mean a memory controller redesign, so that's a no-no.

all is based on what we have " AT THIS POINT"....if we still have that 1.5 year old docu..well yeah they just can clearly change minor things...

but to me ...that "at this point" isnt a certain thing enough

and no im not a dreamer

 

[specialguy]

at least we will know (hopefully lol) in just 19 days...

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Based on PS4 specs and Durango rumors, which is harder to manufacture?

 

[c0de]

Based on PS4 specs and Durango rumors, which is harder to manufacture?

Depends on how they choose to design the chip, meaning: what is packed into one die and which is not. But I think Durango is a little bit harder to implement, especially because of esram.

 

[ekim]

Based on PS4 specs and Durango rumors, which is harder to manufacture?

Depends on the sizes of the boxes.

 

[BruiserBear]

The spec bump wishful thinkers are still holding out hope?

This has been gone over dozens of times by now, but most changes are simply not possible this late in the process. Sony just happened to make one of the very few changes that are possible, but that does not mean Microsoft could do the same.

The differences are just too substantial for any small tweaks now to really matter. Just accept the PS4 is going to be more powerful by a fair margin. 20% more power is a good estimate. At the end of the day the differences will not be mind blowing for most games.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Depends on how they choose to design the chip, meaning: what is packed into one die and which is not. But I think Durango is a little bit harder to implement, especially because of esram.

Thanks.

Depends on the sizes of the boxes.

I am not sure if that the size of the box is a problem.

 

[ekim]

Thanks.


I am not sure if that the size of the box is a problem.

Of course it is - If you want a very slim and small box you have to build a high density die, let alone you have to think about how to keep everything cool and quiet.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

The spec bump wishful thinkers are still holding out hope?

This has been gone over dozens of times by now, but most changes are simply not possible this late in the process. Sony just happened to make one of the very few changes that are possible, but that does not mean Microsoft could do the same.

The differences are just too substantial for any small tweaks now to really matter. Just accept the PS4 is going to be more powerful by a fair margin. 20% more power is a good estimate. At the end of the day the differences will not be mind blowing for most games.

1.8TF/1.2TF is not 20%. And that's not even factoring the bandwith difference. Even if Durango gets X360 SOC to provide BC, it's still going to be over 20% in raw performance difference.

 

[2MF]

We havent heard anything in a couple months though.

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

Southern Islands 10-12 CU chips in the wild are typically clocked at 1ghz at retail (such as 7770 and 7790), with overclocks pressing beyond that (this 7770 is clocked at 1100mhz.) So even a 20% overclock to 960 mhz seems reasonable as it's still less than stock retail 7770/7790.

MS would feel the need to respond to "8GB GDDR5!" hoopla (which remember, didn't exist prior to Sony's event). They also could be getting behind the scenes blowback from devs who feel Durango isn't keeping up. Which is really who they have to answer to. This wouldn't be happening in a vacuum or without reasons to do so.

The baseline for next gen will be Durango/PS4/PC. Durango cant start too lag too much, it just cant. They all have to be targeted with roughly the same assets or it doesn't work.

If I had to guess at anything, I would start at 12Gb DDR3. Like I say, it would be cheap. 16GB would be overkill. 12GB arguably would, but it would allow them to reserve 3GB while still entirely matching or exceeding PS4 with 9GB free at a a minimum. Even if you couldn't efficiently use it all for gfx, it could help with loading times etc, worst case. It would give them something to placate fans and developers alike in the spec wars. It would give them their own "ooh ahh" spec to announce at the event, etc.

I don't know what MS is planning behind the scenes, but here's the thing about memory size for any system: from a certain point it starts to become useless for games, because the available memory speed limits how much memory you can touch on each game frame.

 

[specialguy]

The spec bump wishful thinkers are still holding out hope?

This has been gone over dozens of times by now, but most changes are simply not possible this late in the process. Sony just happened to make one of the very few changes that are possible, but that does not mean Microsoft could do the same.

we all know the possible changes to the hardware. clocks and ram. not a redesign.

or as ekim says if there are some redudant cu's they could be enabled, that's all theory.

the chip could be designed with 14 cu's, 2 disabled for yield. ms could decide hey, we need 14 now, we'll have to take the hit on yield.

i find that last less likely, but its theoretically possible like ekim says.

 

[TheKayle]

1.8TF/1.2TF is not 20%. And that's not even factoring the bandwith difference. Even if Durango gets X360 SOC to provide BC, it's still going to be over 20% in raw performance difference.

for this reason i really dont take that specs for good...would be just crazy

 

[c0de]

The spec bump wishful thinkers are still holding out hope?

This has been gone over dozens of times by now, but most changes are simply not possible this late in the process. Sony just happened to make one of the very few changes that are possible, but that does not mean Microsoft could do the same.

The differences are just too substantial for any small tweaks now to really matter. Just accept the PS4 is going to be more powerful by a fair margin. 20% more power is a good estimate. At the end of the day the differences will not be mind blowing for most games.

Exactly. Of course more power is a famous argument in forum-fights but we will see how it will be used in games. Personally I don't have less fun in games if some details are missing, of course. Also 3rd parties will probably not put much effort in optimizing their games: look at pc-ports from this gen. Games were mostly polished, nothing more.

 

[specialguy]

I don't know what MS is planning behind the scenes, but here's the thing about memory size for any system: from a certain point it starts to become useless for games, because the available memory speed limits how much memory you can touch on each game frame.

yeah i agree with that, IF they went to 12GB, it might be more to tout a bigger number than actual advantage.

It would also let them go hog wild with reserves without affecting games, and as I said, if absolutely nothing else, you could use it to reduce loading.

 

[Whiteshirt]

Since these things are APUs, a wild redesign is probably going to be fairly difficult. Micrsoft could end up with something wildly different but that would depend on every rumour being incorrect.

To the guy who refuses to write in complete English, the Ouya is a completely different system to any of Sony's or Microsoft's consoles. The Ouya is literally using smartphone parts. Every part of it is as "off the shelf" as possible: its an unchanged Tegra 3.

Saying that Microsoft's and Sony's console is using "off the shelf" parts is a bit of a misnomer. Microsoft and Sony aren't pumping billions into rolling with their own silicon but they're still pushing AMD to provide them with a very unique design. What APU has 8x Jaguar cores, embedded RAM, and enough CUs to constitute a very decent GPU?

 

[shinra-bansho]

What is this thread even about now?

Maybe, just maybe, Microsoft have a plan and are sticking to it, rather than adjust years of planning over the course of two months because Sony.

 

[LowEndTorque]

We havent heard anything in a couple months though.

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

Southern Islands 10-12 CU chips in the wild are typically clocked at 1ghz at retail (such as 7770 and 7790), with overclocks pressing beyond that (this 7770 is clocked at 1100mhz.) So even a 20% overclock to 960 mhz seems reasonable as it's still less than stock retail 7770/7790.

MS would feel the need to respond to "8GB GDDR5!" hoopla (which remember, didn't exist prior to Sony's event). They also could be getting behind the scenes blowback from devs who feel Durango isn't keeping up. Which is really who they have to answer to. This wouldn't be happening in a vacuum or without reasons to do so.

The baseline for next gen will be Durango/PS4/PC. Durango cant start too lag too much, it just cant. They all have to be targeted with roughly the same assets or it doesn't work.

If I had to guess at anything, I would start at 12Gb DDR3. Like I say, it would be cheap. 16GB would be overkill. 12GB arguably would, but it would allow them to reserve 3GB while still entirely matching or exceeding PS4 with 9GB free at a a minimum. Even if you couldn't efficiently use it all for gfx, it could help with loading times etc, worst case. It would give them something to placate fans and developers alike in the spec wars. It would give them their own "ooh ahh" spec to announce at the event, etc.

Oh boy...

Cramming an extra 4 gigs in the box just to placate fanboys in the spec wars and have an "ooh ahh" spec to announce at the reveal? This takes wishful thinking to a whole new level.

 

[Kyoufu]

What is this thread even about now?

Maybe, just maybe, Microsoft have a plan and are sticking to it, rather than adjust years of planning over the course of two months because Sony.

I think it's about specs.

Which don't matter because Microsoft are meeting the minimum requirement for next gen games. So what if PS4 can do a little bit more?

 

[CorrisD]

The spec bump wishful thinkers are still holding out hope?

This has been gone over dozens of times by now, but most changes are simply not possible this late in the process. Sony just happened to make one of the very few changes that are possible, but that does not mean Microsoft could do the same.

Indeed, Sony had already planned ahead with the memory bump which is why it isn't an issue, as far as we know they are literally just changing the chip densities on the board from 2Gb to 4Gb which doubles the total memory, this was all designed ahead of time with the mass production of 4Gb densities now coming into effect.

for this reason i really dont take that specs for good...would be just crazy

That's because you assume MS is trying to beat out anyone at the hardware level, if console history has taught us anything it is that the most "powerful" console isn't the one that sells the most. MS is aiming for the living room, their literal competitor might be Sony and Nintendo, but they are aiming to compete with Apple and Google going forward as they both move in on the living room which is what MS wants to control.

Besides 1st party games where you will see the best come out on either system, and of course those of us that hang out on these sorts of forums keep track and some continue to argue to this day about specs, the general public isn't going to care that the PS4 might or might not have a 20% raw power performance at the end of the day.

 

[KidBeta]

We havent heard anything in a couple months though.

An upclock and/or increase to say 12GB RAM is possible (and dirt cheap, because DDR3 is).

Southern Islands 10-12 CU chips in the wild are typically clocked at 1ghz at retail (such as 7770 and 7790), with overclocks pressing beyond that (this 7770 is clocked at 1100mhz.) So even a 20% overclock to 960 mhz seems reasonable as it's still less than stock retail 7770/7790.

MS would feel the need to respond to "8GB GDDR5!" hoopla (which remember, didn't exist prior to Sony's event). They also could be getting behind the scenes blowback from devs who feel Durango isn't keeping up. Which is really who they have to answer to. This wouldn't be happening in a vacuum or without reasons to do so.

The baseline for next gen will be Durango/PS4/PC. Durango cant start too lag too much, it just cant. They all have to be targeted with roughly the same assets or it doesn't work.

If I had to guess at anything, I would start at 12Gb DDR3. Like I say, it would be cheap. 16GB would be overkill. 12GB arguably would, but it would allow them to reserve 3GB while still entirely matching or exceeding PS4 with 9GB free at a a minimum. Even if you couldn't efficiently use it all for gfx, it could help with loading times etc, worst case. It would give them something to placate fans and developers alike in the spec wars. It would give them their own "ooh ahh" spec to announce at the event, etc.

12GB would require a complete redesign of the bus because at the moment it has n number of chips of which all have x size and iirc all the memory modules are all powers of two (1gb, 2gbit, 4gbit, etc) which means having 12GB would require you to have a different sized bus.

Also these chips aren't just a GCN GPU they are a entire APU thats probably the reason for clocking them lower then usual to reduce heat and power consumption which they probably have relatively little of when its all on the same chip.

 

[TheKayle]

Since these things are APUs, a wild redesign is probably going to be fairly difficult. Micrsoft could end up with something wildly different but that would depend on every rumour being incorrect.

To the guy who refuses to write in complete English, the Ouya is a completely different system to any of Sony's or Microsoft's consoles. The Ouya is literally using smartphone parts. Every part of it is as "off the shelf" as possible: its an unchanged Tegra 3.

Saying that Microsoft's and Sony's console is using "off the shelf" parts is a bit of a misnomer. Microsoft and Sony aren't pumping billions into rolling with their own silicon but they're still pushing AMD to provide them with a very unique design. What APU has 8x Jaguar cores, embedded RAM, and enough CUs to constitute a very decent GPU?

sorry for my poor english i always try to do my best to let ppl understand what im trying to say ...

i didnt want compare the ouya with more complex xbox and ps4 design ...but still u need to provide a design and everything else....u should watch it in scaled vision

but again papers saying that ms is in the top 10 company that invest in r&d in the latest years...(more than intel,samsung and apple)
while sony is out from this list...and this reflect also the ps4 design i dont think is a lots customized...

anyway we r close to the show..we will see soon

 

[twobear]

If the hypothetical difference is going to be similar to say, the difference between the 360 and PS3 versions of RDR, I can safely say that I won't care.

 

[dragonelite]

Either month 6 dlc

Or just release 6 month later with higher bandwidth DDR4

 

[Whiteshirt]

Being top 10 R&D doesn't mean you can work wonders into doing a whole workaround. At the end of the day, AMD is likely doing most of the work and its going to be handed off to GlobalFoundries or TSMC. They can have multiple designs and that'll literally be the only hope of a seriously redesigned console. That would depend on every rumour being wrong, which is possible but I doubt having a very powerful console is even required in this day and age.

Ouya is still an extremely horrible comparison. As I said, nothing about it is unique. The only thing unique about it is the software. The hardware might literally be borrowed from some random no-name phone that has Tegra 3 SoC and the relevant wireless modules. That's how unique it is, it has more in common with $50 Android 2.3 USB sticks than a serious piece of hardware with significant design.

Also, I'm not saying that you have bad English. I'm just noting that your txt-speak is somewhat infuriating.

 

[wastedyears]

...how to keep everything cool and quiet.

Not exactly one of Microsoft's strong points.

 

[FuturusX]

I think it's about specs.

Which don't matter because Microsoft are meeting the minimum requirement for next gen games. So what if PS4 can do a little bit more?

Who can win the race to bottom? Exciting right? Reminds of Newcastle...

(Tongue in cheek)

 

[GavinGT]

Not exactly one of Microsoft's strong points.

They managed it two out of three times.

 

[stryke]

sorry for my poor english i always try to do my best to let ppl understand what im trying to say ...

I think your English is fine, you're doing well. No need to apologise against that unwarranted passive-aggressiveness.

 

[c0de]

Do we know anything about the audio hardware in the PS4 yet?. Doesn't Sony themselves make audio processors, and the PS Vita contained pretty powerful dedicated audio hardware so I see no reason why the PS4 wouldn't they should be able to get it cheaper then others.

I am still waiting for further details regarding the vita audio processors

 

[Kyoufu]

Who can win the race to bottom? Exciting right? Reminds of Newcastle...

(Tongue in cheek)

Uncalled for!

But in all seriousness, talks of 12GB RAM is amusing.

 

[-MB-]

Wrong.

Early on is EXACTLY when you take a money hat while the base is small and sales aren't guaranteed.

ye sbecause they will foot the bill for you and properly advertise it too, and it is a longterm investment, since you will be building base on the system.
People who associate said franchise with that brand of system.

 

[BruiserBear]

1.8TF/1.2TF is not 20%. And that's not even factoring the bandwith difference. Even if Durango gets X360 SOC to provide BC, it's still going to be over 20% in raw performance difference.

I know. I was trying to give a conservative estimate as to not get too many people riled up.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

The spec difference won't mean anything to non-exclusives. Third parties will go for parity regardless of spec. Also you have to keep in mind 1.2Tflops is still like a 6x jump over the 360. That system gave us Halo 4. PS3 is giving us Beyond on 7 year old hardware. Everything is going to look awesome.

 

[SpaceHobo]

The spec difference won't mean anything to non-exclusives. Third parties will go for parity regardless of spec. Also you have to keep in mind 1.2Tflops is still like a 6x jump over the 360. That system gave us Halo 4. PS3 is giving us Beyond on 7 year old hardware. Everything is going to look awesome.

Exactly. I'll probably buy both systems again this gen and I'm pretty sure both will be great.

The current gen gave me Mass Effect , GeoW , Uncharted , 2 great Elder Scrolls games , Heavy Rain and cool B stuff like Dragons Dogma and Divinity. I can't wait to see what devs will give us with at least a 6x power bump.

 

[DieH@rd]

The spec difference won't mean anything to non-exclusives. Third parties will go for parity regardless of spec. Also you have to keep in mind 1.2Tflops is still like a 6x jump over the 360. That system gave us Halo 4. PS3 is giving us Beyond on 7 year old hardware. Everything is going to look awesome.

I dont believe so. We will see visual improvements on more powerful console.

 

[Mastperf]

I get the feeling that MS might be taking an Apple approach to the new Xbox. They might be designing a system powerful enough for next-gen while also having a small, sleek design. They'll offer services and functionality that sell the hardware regardless of if it's weaker than the competition. Apple is making mountains of cash and MS might see this as their chance to do the same by leveraging their success with gamers.

 

[c0de]

I dont believe so. We will see visual improvements on more powerful console.

And the other will have no visual improvements than the current gen? Wow...

 

[grimshawish]

I'd be more excited by them upping the GPU but I suppose that means for less "XYZ GB!" shit.

 

[DieH@rd]

And the other will have no visual improvements than the current gen? Wow...

You need to take a break from console wars. You're talking nonsense now.

 

[c0de]

You need to take a break from console wars. You're talking nonsense now.

Yes, I am the one talking nonsense

 

[ThisWreckage]

Developers will favor the console that is easier to develop for and they'll favor the console whose company is easier to work with. That's all there is to it.

 

[Ninja Moomin]

The spec difference won't mean anything to non-exclusives. Third parties will go for parity regardless of spec. Also you have to keep in mind 1.2Tflops is still like a 6x jump over the 360. That system gave us Halo 4. PS3 is giving us Beyond on 7 year old hardware. Everything is going to look awesome.

That did not happen this gen for YEARS.

Xbox 360 games were optimised (or just easier to get to the grunt of the system) and PS3 games suffered by comparison.

It's wishful think to assume that wouldn't happen the other way around.

 

[DieH@rd]

Yes, I am the one talking nonsense.

There, fixed.