Thank you
Didn't notice any juddering on the 30fps games. Seems to run really smooth, actually. Hope you get it sorted. (I'm usually sensitive to this stuff so I am pretty sure I would have noticed)
I don't see it in the Deus Ex 30fps vid, but I can see it with Dishonored. I don't have either of those, unfortunately. However I wasn't rotating the view slowly during gameplay to see it, so I tried that with Gears 4 and GTAV. I don't see judder in either of those.
If I get a chance today I'll record it and let you see.
Do you see the same problem with movies?
No not movies and terestrial TV is perfect. My wife could barely notice it but for me its glaring at me. If you could upload a vid of various speeds on panning I'll see if I can see yours.
Have you a PS4? In theory I could let you remote play? If I added you as a friend.
Can't really tell from the the DE videos but that Dishonored one, yikes. You sure the game just doesn't have bad frame pacing issues? Looks like it consistently jerks every other second.
OK Gaf,
Below are perfect examples of what I'm seeing.
This is with native TV YouTube app with auto motion set to auto.
You'll notice with 24fps / 25 fps / 30 fps I get bad artefacts towards edges of screen where literally the image breaks up:
24fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4sn9c2vxRE
25fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRh7yAAUHE
30fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwyn0gPuO80
60fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaukqXKfrLU
These were played from Robert Smits youtube uploads @ https://www.youtube.com/user/BitPusher321
Are you experiencing the same?
Please bear in mind I get these artefacts in 4K HDR version of the Grand Tour on Amazon when they are driving through the desert on the opening sequence.
I DO NOT get these artefacts when in game mode but I get judder from the aforementioned games.
Just tried the 30pfs one on mine and it judders not sure what to make of this. Is the TV no good and we have all been had by reviewers making a terrible mistake?
I'm sorry if I'm highlighting issues for people here. I simply don't know if this is a firmware issue, that has surfaced, can be fixed, if my TV is a dud or is part of the KS7000 (KS8000 int) TV set.
I'm baffled by all of this. After weeks are researching online and reading reviews NOT ONE reviewer mentioned what I'm / we going through.
You are getting artifacts because you have auto motion plus set to auto, and its probably trying to apply a certain amount of judder reduction to counter the low frame rate in those videos under 60 fps. It's worse the lower the framerate (24fps) because the interpolation becomes more aggressive, with the software trying to guess and build new frames. You get these artifacts in pretty much any TV that can do such interpolation (which is one of the reasons some people don't like it, together with increasing input lag and giving you the soap opera effect). You don't get them in game mode because Samsung prevents you from being able to access the whole Auto Motion Plus section. I wish they did though, and fixed the broken LED Clear Motion in the ks9000 since I would definitely be happy with game mode + black frame insertionOK Gaf,
Below are perfect examples of what I'm seeing.
This is with native TV YouTube app with auto motion set to auto.
You'll notice with 24fps / 25 fps / 30 fps I get bad artefacts towards edges of screen where literally the image breaks up:
24fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4sn9c2vxRE
25fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRh7yAAUHE
30fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwyn0gPuO80
60fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaukqXKfrLU
These were played from Robert Smits youtube uploads @ https://www.youtube.com/user/BitPusher321
Are you experiencing the same?
Please bear in mind I get these artefacts in 4K HDR version of the Grand Tour on Amazon when they are driving through the desert on the opening sequence.
I DO NOT get these artefacts when in game mode but I get judder from the aforementioned games.
Yeah mine is the KS7000 too. This is bad news
You are getting artifacts because you have auto motion plus set to auto, and its probably trying to apply a certain amount of judder reduction to counter the low frame rate in those videos under 60 fps. It's worse the lower the framerate (24fps) because the interpolation becomes more aggressive, with the software trying to guess and build new frames. You get these artifacts in pretty much any TV that can do such interpolation (which is one of the reasons some people don't like it, together with increasing input lag and giving you the soap opera effect). You don't get them in game mode because Samsung prevents you from being able to access the whole Auto Motion Plus section. I wish they did though, and fixed the broken LED Clear Motion in the ks9000 since I would definitely be happy with game mode + black frame insertion
Thank you very much, that is indeed a brilliant way to see it!
Thank you, too! I did the above mentioned test with the trophies icon, which got dark outlines when cranking up sharpness. I then decided to leave sharpness at 0. For now.![]()
OK Gaf,
Below are perfect examples of what I'm seeing.
This is with native TV YouTube app with auto motion set to auto.
You'll notice with 24fps / 25 fps / 30 fps I get bad artefacts towards edges of screen where literally the image breaks up:
24fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4sn9c2vxRE
25fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRh7yAAUHE
30fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwyn0gPuO80
60fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaukqXKfrLU
These were played from Robert Smits youtube uploads @ https://www.youtube.com/user/BitPusher321
Are you experiencing the same?
Please bear in mind I get these artefacts in 4K HDR version of the Grand Tour on Amazon when they are driving through the desert on the opening sequence.
I DO NOT get these artefacts when in game mode but I get judder from the aforementioned games.
I've read about flickering issues with bfi. Interestingly, I have never had any issues when using it on my 120hz pc monitor via lightoost, or on my sony w900a (which is still pretty awesome since you can use both bfi and game mode at the same time). The implementation though on the ks9000 is apparently broken(?) as you barely (or do not at all) see any benefits when enabling the LED Clear Motion option, other than getting the negatives, which is the drop in brightness lolAlthough I don't know about you but the Black Frame insertion sticks out like a sore thumb with me. I see lights flickering when in the dark. I'm hyper sensitive it seems.
I tried all of those on the native YouTube app, and I don't see the artefacts or the juddering on mine at all, but I clearly see them on your videos.
Thanks Krang.
I guess I have to make the decision then whether to return the TV for exchange.
Damn, I hate boxing this stuff back up.
I'm at 0 too. I thought something was wrong after I reset my ps4's video settings back to 480p because all the text turned to looking like garbage (reminded me of those 2x sal filters in emulators). That default 50 sharpness was really strong lolI've been rocking 0 sharpness for a couple of days, to see if I noticed any softening of the image across a variety of types of content, since that perception was what caused me to experiment with it in the first place. I came to the conclusion that 1080p and 4K still look as sharp as I'm used to with my sharpness at 20, but that I saw an improvement in SD content - which would make sense whether the TV was causing unwanted edge enhancement because my sharpness was too high, or because it's now artificially softening the image.
OK Gaf,
Below are perfect examples of what I'm seeing.
This is with native TV YouTube app with auto motion set to auto.
You'll notice with 24fps / 25 fps / 30 fps I get bad artefacts towards edges of screen where literally the image breaks up:
24fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4sn9c2vxRE
25fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqRh7yAAUHE
30fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwyn0gPuO80
60fps Judder test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaukqXKfrLU
These were played from Robert Smits youtube uploads @ https://www.youtube.com/user/BitPusher321
Are you experiencing the same?
Please bear in mind I get these artefacts in 4K HDR version of the Grand Tour on Amazon when they are driving through the desert on the opening sequence.
I DO NOT get these artefacts when in game mode but I get judder from the aforementioned games.
Do you get the same problem when you turn off auto motion off completely?
Are you talking about judder reduction when you say "tech"? For TVs that can do interpolation, I have always seen random juddering when say, trying to turn a 30 fps game to 60 fps, or when watching a movie interpolated to a higher frame rate. It's probably because again, the TV's software is trying to create fake frames for you and this won't always be perfect. Disabling this though, you should not be getting any juddering issues, unless you had a really crappy TV maybe, or the game has frame pacing problemsAre you saying then that as mentioned above that games running at 60fps are pure bliss, but games that hover around 30 I should be expecting judder because of this tech? If so, I can live with that until Sony/MS urge Devs to push for 60fps in their games more often. Or its a Developer choice. Either way, unless its rock solid 30fps or more, I can't buy the game.
It's worth noting that I have Auto Motion turned off. I've never felt like the extra processing adds anything to TV viewing.
For the sake of not having to go through the entire thread for multiple settings, did we as a whole decide on a singular "THE BEST SETTING" for the TV - PS4Pro HDR combination yet?
I'm interested in this as well. So many pages to read through and so many updates, I can't keep up.
Since I digged into the whole settings- and HDR-stuff, I thought it might be helpful for some people if I wrote it down in a single post. I own the German model KS7090, which equivalent in the US should be the KS8000. There is a splendid post in a German forum on how to set up a Samsung-TV, which settings to avoid and so on, here is a link: http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-151-28898.html . The following information is based on that, mixed with own tests and other sources. There is no guarantee that it is 100 % accurate but it could give you a valuable headstart on how to get the best out of your new TV.
First of all: I think you should NOT simply copy other people’s settings, since even two devices assembled in the same factory on the same day can have differences on how they display the connected content. This is true especially for the 2- and 10-point white balance stuff. But this doesn’t mean that there aren’t some rules on how to get near a very good, natural looking picture without having to buy additional hardware to measure stuff.
Some considerations first: let your TV run for 15 minutes before you start the adjustments. Additionally, download the linked test-image (Edit: now in 4k: http://burosch.de/images/directdownload/06_Universaltestbild First-CheckUHD.jpg ) and put it on an USB-stick, we will need it later on. Then a hint concerning the resulting image on diplay: when you are finished with the settings and ready to give it a try with some gaming, tv-series or movies, give your eyes some time getting used to the maybe vastly different appearance. It might very well be that you were using a far too bright, colorful, over-sharpened setting and the new setup seems a little bit too red, dim and/or soft in comparison. But trust me: the latter one should be much nearer to a natural and pleasant look, it just needs some time to adjust and then you won’t miss the old crap one bit.
Additions concerning HDR: there seems to be a misconception when talking about HDR and you might have to adjust your expectations, otherwise you might tune the device into false directions. If you are unsure, maybe read something like the first post under this link (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...2442082-hdr-misconceptions-still-prevail.html ). To make it short: the way I understand it, HDR DOES NOT mean, that the picture in HDR suddenly has popping colors all over it and is bright as the sun. No, I think it is rather far more capable to use the available range in color and brightness more effectively, carving out more details that would otherwise drown in the whites of a sunny sky or the blacks of a nightly forest, so to say. I am no expert, but that is how I understand it. So if you are disappointed at first that the image in HDR suddenly gets dimmer and not flashy, even after calibrating the set with my tips, give it an honest try, I think you won’t miss a thing from SDR!
In the following section I will go through the different options piece by piece and give some information on how to tackle it. I won’t go into it too deep though, but I mention differences for SDR- versus HDR-content where I see fit.
Picture Mode: Movie
This should be the definite basis for all further adjustments, so better take it.
Special Viewing Mode: Game Mode On if you are sensitive to input lag in games, if not, then Off is fine
Picture Size:
Fit to screen should be On to not lose any picture information on the edges.
Backlight: 5 at night, maybe more by day.
This controls the brightness of the panel and you pretty much can set it up how you like. In HDR-mode, this should automatically turn to max (20) and that is the right way for that kind of content.
Brightness: let it on the default setting (should be 45 or something near that)
The default setting should be pretty much okay so you can leave it alone.
Contrast: let it on the default setting (should be 100 or something near that)
Contrast is the less important setting, compared to Brightness and should already be very good by default
Edit: Additional information from Aske, thank you!
Sharpness: 0 or something in the range up to 20
I personally would leave it at Zero, since there should not be any necessity for artificial sharpening of proper HD- or UHD-material. There might be a difference though when using PC-Mode: I’ve read that the equivalent setting there is 50 instead of 0, but I have no confirmation on that at the moment.
Edit: Another additional information from Aske.
Color: leave it on default (should be 50)
Color should be set up just fine ex factory.
Tint (G/R): leave it on default (should be G50/R50)
Digital Clean View: Off, maybe Auto
Leave it Off unless you see some annoying grain in the picture. But I would leave it Off.
Auto Motion Plus: Custom
- Blur Reduction: 10
- Judder Reduction: 1-3
- LED Clear Motion: Off
I personally like Auto Motion Plus, since it works very efficiently in removing judder when the camera pans. Blur Reduction can be set to max, but Judder Reduction should be not higher than maybe 5 to avoid the not so cool looking “Soap Opera Effect”. If you are not susceptible to judder in camera motion, then maybe leave it off.
Additionaly, you can test for artifacts in the judder-test-videos of this guy on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/BitPusher321 .
Focus on the edges of the screen and test, whether you see black pixelation/ tearing, something like that (I don't know what to call it exactly ^^). If you do and it bothers you, then reduce the Judder Reduction. Try it with game mode OFF though, since Auto Motion Plus is not available in that mode, as far as I know.
Smart LED: Low for SDR, High for HDR
Since it is available, Smart-LED should be used, even in SDR. I recommend Low for SDR. In HDR this should be High.
HDMI UHD Color: On for all HDMI-ports where HDR-content is available.
HDMI Black Level: Auto
PS4 for example should be set to the Auto concerning RGB. If you are not sure whether it works correctly, try switching the HDMI-Black-Level-setting and see if the picture suddenly gets washed out or too dark. It is important that the connected device and the TV are both in the right mode.
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Leave that off, you want to avoid as much artificial stuff on top of the signal as possible. There might be a wow-effect when using it in conjunction with HDR-material though (and I personally am not sure right now, whether it should be On in HDR-mode or not). I’ve tested it with The Grand Tour on Amazon Video and it seems that there is a loss of information in bright areas (when looking into the sun, it becomes a bright mess when DC is on). Right now I think is best turned OFF at all times to get the most natural picture!
Colour Tone: Warm2
Try the setting Warm2. If you think it is too red, don’t worry: on the one hand, this reaction is normal when coming from an unnatural cold setting. On the other hand, the following white balance can correct some unwanted tints in the white and grey spectrum. If you can’t stand the look of it no matter what, you can switch to Warm1.
White Balance:
Before adjusting anything here, be sure to set up Colour Tone (I recommend Warm2) and Colour Space (I recommend Auto)! For the adjustments, we need the test image from the beginning of the post on an USB-stick or something ( Edit: now in 4k: http://burosch.de/images/directdownload/06_Universaltestbild First-CheckUHD.jpg ). The goal is to remove any tint of grey and white shades that might have been introduced by our settings so far. And don’t worry, you don’t have to be an expert to get at least the most basic adjustments right.
- 2 Point:
This adjusts two ranges of brightness, the darker one (Offset) and the brighter one (Gain), separate for each color-channel red, green and blue. Start with the Gain-settings since they are more visible. Here, firstly focus on the Red and Blue-Gains, Green can have side-effects. I personally have just changed R-Gain and B-Gain for now, maybe I will put some more time into it in the future. So, load up the test image and adjust the R-Gain and then the B-Gain. The aim is a perfectly white background while keeping the skin tone of the women natural. A light warm touch in the whites is acceptable too. To get rid of a red cast it might be necessary to dial down the R-Gain or turning up the B-Gain, or a combination. Don’t get carried away though but try values in the range of +/- 10, or 15 tops. I for example settled (at the moment) with the following values, the rest being 0:
- R-Gain: -5
- B-Gain: 7
But again: don’t copy them but try to get it right for YOUR panel, it is worth it!
- 10 Point: Off
Unless you are an expert (why are you reading this then?and/or have calibration tools, don’t bother adjusting the 10 point setting
Gamma: -1, maybe -2
To make the Gamma higher, you have to go in the negative direction. I would recommend the setting -1
RGB Only Mode: Off, definitively
Colour Space: Auto
This setting should be fine for SDR- and HDR-content as well.
I hope my thoughts help some people and all of us a Merry Christmas!
Edit: test-image is now in 4k. Added additional information from other user, thank you!
Edit #2: in parts changed and added information in the Auto Motion Plus-section.
[...]To me, Color Space set to Auto just doesn't work properly on PS4 Pro.[...]
Colors look oddly washed out (with saturation setting at 50, default value), especially the red tints.
Like, the YouTube app icon and all of its interface look dark orange instead of the usual vibrant red. The difference with the Samsung YouTube app from the TV is huge.[...]
I think this is crucial here. For those of you with these judder-artifact-problems: it should be directly related to the settings in Auto Motion, I think. Try setting it to custom, with blur reduction max and Judder Reduction 0 and test it again. If you need at least a bit of judder reduction, try anything up to 3. But you might have to live with some artifacts then. I do not think that this is a problem of an individual panel but related to the way these processes work. But I could be wrong.
Second you leave game mode you get less than a acceptable lag. Trying to play a 30fps game outside of game mode on the KS8000 is just retarded and the delay is extremely pronounced
Second you leave game mode you get less than a acceptable lag. Trying to play a 30fps game outside of game mode on the KS8000 is just retarded and the delay is extremely pronounced
Are you talking about judder reduction when you say "tech"? For TVs that can do interpolation, I have always seen random juddering when say, trying to turn a 30 fps game to 60 fps, or when watching a movie interpolated to a higher frame rate. It's probably because again, the TV's software is trying to create fake frames for you and this won't always be perfect. Disabling this though, you should not be getting any juddering issues, unless you had a really crappy TV maybe, or the game has frame pacing problems
I think you're just mistaking framerate drops for "judder" tbh.Well with game mode on that as you know disables auto motion. But this introduces judder on 30fps games.
Granted though after further tests games that hold a solid 30fps such as last of us locked at 30 or tombraider or even ratchet and clank. These judder much less than say dishonored or deus ex.
If this TV is highlighting issues with those games I wont play them. But bloodborne also suffers framepacing which I beliebe will not bode well with this tv.
It seems you cant have your cake and eat it here. Gome mode less lag but judders. Game mode less judder but with artefacts and wayyy to much latency.
Its a damn shame cos 60fps games are a total dream
I think you're just mistaking framerate drops for "judder" tbh.
the judder seems to be a thing on this TV, from all the one's i've checked. so i think it's just this TV.
i seem to have gotten used to it though..
If that is the case I can get my head around that and accept the limitations of the technology. I just didn't know if this is purely my set with issues.
well i've checked 3 or 4.. so there's still a chance it's our TVs..
Yeah fair comment. Im not going back to Currys 4 times.
I'll keep this TV until I can afford an OLED in a year or 2.
Any games that cant maintain a solid framerate of 30 or above will have to be shelved until then. 2016 we shouldn't be having issues like this and sub 30 framerates with games but thats another matter.
I'll try and do some videos later if I get the chance (a 2 month old means I won't be out for NYE!) of the judder videos you used, on my panel, so you can see what you think.
It doesn't bother me too much because I got used to playing on older TVs with extremely bad input lag (my mom's DLP set was terrible in this department). Surprisingly, my ks9000 seems to have better input lag outside game mode, both with and without judder reduction than my sony w900a in similar conditions.Second you leave game mode you get less than a acceptable lag. Trying to play a 30fps game outside of game mode on the KS8000 is just retarded and the delay is extremely pronounced
Guys what is everyone's brightness set at in game mode. Mine was at 45. Also my ps4 defaults to 2160p rgb. Should it be yrgb or is rgb fine?
You're HERO many thanks fella!
Is yours UK KS8000 or International?
Ok, here's my videos:
24fps: https://youtu.be/RC_jJ0g7WNs
25fps: https://youtu.be/Y8Hb2guQksY
30fps: https://youtu.be/2O-B-Ai-ggQ
60fps: https://youtu.be/dT6KpfkQ8Qk
These are without any motion processing. For fun I put up the anti-judder to 3, and (as expected) I got artefacts in the periphery, the same as yours, but I didn't get the periodic skipping that you see - the motion looks largely the same as the above.
Thank you for taking the time to do this.
I watched Lords of the Rings this evening hence my late reply. In fast moving scenes there was noticable judder and every now and again the image flickered.
I really think theres something wrong with this panel.
Watching house of cards on netflix had stutter aswell.
I'll return to Currys and either replace or upgrade to KS8000 or swap for another KS7000.
I'm terribly worried that this will repeat itself over and over.
I doubt Currys will give me a full refund to purchase from elsewhere.
Act fast to return faulty goods. Under the Consumer Rights Act you have an early right to reject goods that are unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described and get a full refund. But this right is limited to 30 days from the date of purchase of your product.
If you're returning it anyway, I'd fight for that first, assuming you bought it less than 30 days ago: