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Licensed games better than their source material

Phediuk

Member
For some reason, Half-Life 1 gets a lot of praise for scripted events occuring around the player, but GoldenEye did this a year earlier. Scenes from the film were recreated as NPCs engaging with the player. NPCs talked to Bond, Bond talked back to them. The designers even took pains to recreate iconic scenes from the film such as the train escape set piece without resorting to cutscenes. Every important story moment occurred through Bond's eyes.

In Goldeneye, NPCs "talking" means a text bar appears onscreen, as opposed to Half-Life, where they actually talk.
 
I know there are corridors in GoldenEye that lead to bigger open areas. Same with Half-Life. Half-Life nailed immersion and level design in a sense that everything feels connected, like real locations.
But you can't open the doors in HL1. They're almost all fake. There's a fundamental design ideology difference here. In games like GoldenEye, but moreso Perfect Dark, every single door leads somewhere. And the level design is dictated by this. The only exception would be something like the Datadyne Tower, where you can only access around 5 floors of the building. The elevator skips a whole bunch of floors in between. But still, if there's a door, it generally leads somewhere. There was a very good blog post on how PD's deeply interconnected level design works across multiple levels that take place in interconnected areas of the same geographical area.

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2014/07/27/perfect-dark-retrospective-2/

Fake doors are bad. They cheapen the world. Make it feel like a set. I feel this is a relatively "objective" thing. Doors that work = good. Doors that don't work = bad.

In Goldeneye, NPCs "talking" means a text bar appears onscreen, as opposed to Half-Life, where they actually talk.
That's a simple matter of production values, though. To a deaf person, HL1 and GE have no meaningful difference there. The underlying game design is identical.
 

Raptomex

Member
But you can't open the doors in HL1. They're almost all fake. There's a fundamental design ideology difference here. In games like GoldenEye, but moreso Perfect Dark, every single door leads somewhere. And the level design is dictated by this. The only exception would be something like the Datadyne Tower, where you can only access around 5 floors of the building. The elevator skips a whole bunch of floors in between. But still, if there's a door, it generally leads somewhere. There was a very good blog post on how PD's deeply interconnected level design works across multiple levels that take place in interconnected areas of the same geographical area.

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2014/07/27/perfect-dark-retrospective-2/

Fake doors are bad. They cheapen the world. Make it feel like a set. I feel this is a relatively "objective" thing. Doors that work = good. Doors that don't work = bad.


That's a simple matter of production values, though. To a deaf person, HL1 and GE have no meaningful difference there.
I think you have an obsession with doors. But whatever works for you. I enjoy both games. Neither one touches Doom II as the greatest shooter of all time, though. And you can even open doors. Its got it all.

I'm aware this is all subjective
.
 
Please be a troll post!

I've played Chaos Bleeds on xbox, definitely not better. I've heard the one before that sucked as well.

Chaos Bleeds isn't very good, but the exclusive Xbox Buffy the Vampire Slayer is. It's basically a cross between Tomb Raider & a 3D brawler and does a good job at both genre. While I wouldn't say it's better than the source material, I'd definitely rank it higher than some of the weaker later seasons of the show.
 

Phediuk

Member
That's a simple matter of production values, though. To a deaf person, HL1 and GE have no meaningful difference there. The underlying game design is identical.

The thing that made HL revolutionary was immersion in the gameworld. If a game represents a character "talking" by having a text bar appears, that's fundamentally inferior to actually having the character talk.

The doors thing is whatever. It's not more "realistic" to have every door in the gameworld be openable, and a bunch of those doors lead nowhere anyway. Doom has even more doors than Goldeneye, and Wolfenstein 3D even even more; this wasn't a new feature. Removing the doors was a deliberate decision for HL. In Half-Life, every part of the gameworld means something, and it's designed to keep the player moving forward and in the action. It removes the "wandering around" aspect of previous FPSes (including Goldeneye) in favor of a linear and "cinematic" design template, which is the model that future FPSes would follow.
 
Chaos Bleeds isn't very good, but the exclusive Xbox Buffy the Vampire Slayer is. It's basically a cross between Tomb Raider & a 3D brawler and does a good job at both genre. While I wouldn't say it's better than the source material, I'd definitely rank it higher than some of the weaker later seasons of the show.

came to say this, that first buffy game had no business being as great as it was.
 
This one depends on how bad you think Dragonball Evolution is?:

Dragonball_Evolution_Cover.jpg


Also Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands:

Prince_Of_Persia_Forgotten_Sands_Box_Artwork.jpg


While none of the 4 different plots were the same as the movie but the games were released along with it.

In addition the Prince on the cover of the game is styled after how he looks on the cover of The Sands of Time movie.

Prince_of_Persia_poster.jpg


He also goes from this in the three original games:

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princeandfarah.jpg


To this in the 360/PS3 version:

PoPTFS-Opening-Trailer.jpg
466394-prince-of-persia-the-forgotten-sands-windows-screenshot-don-download.jpg

popfs_11.jpg
princepersia_212000.jpg


Despite taking place in between Sands of Time and Warrior Within. Definitely seems like they went for a weird Jake Gyllenhaal look-a-like and failed.

At least the Wii version has the Prince look the same despite the different outfit.

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theforgottensands.jpg


The Wii version also had Sands of Time and Two Thrones costumes.

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Supporting the movie tie-in argument is Sands of Time PS2 (the movie's namesake) being rereleased at the same time with The Forgotten Sands cover.

prince-of-persia-sands-of-time-juego-playstation-2-ps2-D_NQ_NP_756225-MCO25403667346_022017-F.jpg


Inclined to agree.

Wish Bleach had gotten the same treatment

Sure they did. But they never brought any of them over.
 
The thing that made HL revolutionary was immersion in the gameworld. If a game represents a character "talking" by having a text bar appears, that's fundamentally inferior to actually having the character talk.
True, but plenty of FPS games before HL1 had NPCs talking with speech, not to mention games in other genres.

The doors thing is whatever. It's not more "realistic" to have every door in the gameworld be openable, and a bunch of those doors lead nowhere anyway.
Yes, it is. In fact, realistic architecture where you can open any door and find something behind it is the ideal. It's something Crytek grappled with during the development of Crysis 2, where some Crytek engineers developed a procedural generation system that would allow for extremely detailed urban environments where every door was usable and every you could also blow everything up. Didn't quite work out.

Doom has even more doors than Goldeneye, and Wolfenstein 3D even even more;
This is moot because those games had architecture that made no sense. Doors are not the issue. Coherent 3D space that prioritizes "realism" over "fun" is the issue. Hark back to Tom Hall vs John Romero during the development of Doom. The problem then was that they didn't have the technology to realise Hall's ambition of realistic environments. The abstract environments of Doom were an approach that did work considering the tech problems.

Removing the doors was a deliberate decision for HL.
Valve's propensity for removing anything that might confuse playtesters is well documented. There is perhaps an admirable purity that design, but I find it fundamentally disagreeable. The solution is better navigational cues, not ripping out anything that isn't a literal corridor.

In Half-Life, every part of the gameworld means something, and it's designed to keep the player moving forward and in the action.
True.

It removes the "wandering around" aspect of previous FPSes (including Goldeneye) in favor of a linear and "cinematic" design template, which is the model that future FPSes would follow.
Most developers didn't go to the same extremes of linearity as Valve. Valve's storytelling approach was certainly influential, particularly the silent protagonist, but I think you're forgetting the huge number of FPS games released after Half-Life that didn't adopt its painted corridor/can't get lost because there's only one way to go approach to level design.

You look at the FPS games released in 2000, and the only one that was overtly HL1-ish was Turok 3. I actually like Turok 3. But there are far more GE-influenced games in 2000 than HL1-influenced games.

Really, I'd argue Call of Duty 4 was a bigger source of influence in that regard. Until Modern Warfare took off, the FPS genre didn't really embrace extremely linear design in the name of "cinematic" ambition. Crysis was overtly "cinematic", but was the opposite of HL-style linear design.
 

Skulldead

Member
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The movie is one of the worse i ever seen (i usually never left theater, but i did it on this one right before the final fight). But the game is one best DMC clone i played. It copy the game so well that i have a feeling they freaking stole the code. The air combo, the gun and dodging mechanic are nearly identical. The game is a little too easy thought and not well balance. But as a devil may cry fan i thought it was pretty enjoyable.
 

petran79

Banned
I think you have an obsession with doors. But whatever works for you. I enjoy both games. Neither one touches Doom II as the greatest shooter of all time, though. And you can even open doors. Its got it all.

I'm aware this is all subjective
.

I am dissapointed that not more FPS took elements from adventure games like Realms of the Haunting. That game combines both FPS and adventure game gameplay. Problem is that it caters more to adventure game players as this would break the action. Bioshock was a step back in this regard.

roth_0054.jpg

Realms_of_the_Haunting_(DOS)_51.png
REALMS+OF+THE+HAUNTING+02.jpg

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Realms_of_the_Haunting_(DOS)_41.png
Realms_of_the_Haunting_(DOS)_50.png
 

Phediuk

Member
True, but plenty of FPS games before HL1 had NPCs talking with speech, not to mention games in other genres.

Basically the only instance of talking NPCs in an FPS was, like, Duke Nukem bimbos making quips, and also considerably less of it than in Half-Life. HL was basically the first to even attempt to use this to construct a realistic, immersive, and narrative-driven world.

Yes, it is. In fact, realistic architecture where you can open any door and find something behind it is the ideal.

Correction: that is one ideal, an ideal that neither Half-Life, nor any of the gigantic pile of games influenced by it, followed.


This is moot because those games had architecture that made no sense. Doors are not the issue. Coherent 3D space that prioritizes "realism" over "fun" is the issue. Hark back to Tom Hall vs John Romero during the development of Doom. The problem then was that they didn't have the technology to realise Hall's ambition of realistic environments. The abstract environments of Doom were an approach that did work considering the tech problems.

We're not talking about whether realistic or abstract environments are better; we're talking about whether Half-Life or Goldeneye was the first to deliver an FPS campaign based on an interconnected, immersive, realistic gameworld. And the answer is Half-Life.

Valve's propensity for removing anything that might confuse playtesters is well documented. There is perhaps an admirable purity that design, but I find it fundamentally disagreeable.

So we're getting into just your personal preferences now.

Most developers didn't go to the same extremes of linearity as Valve. Valve's storytelling approach was certainly influential, particularly the silent protagonist, but I think you're forgetting the huge number of FPS games released after Half-Life that didn't adopt its painted corridor/can't get lost because there's only one way to go approach to level design.

True, it took a few years for Half-Life to exert its influence. 2001-02 is the tipping point, with stuff like Allied Assault, Frontline, Red Faction, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and the like. Of course, it was an evergreen game that just kept on selling and selling, and kept on influencing new games over the years.

You look at the FPS games released in 2000, and the only one that was overtly HL1-ish was Turok 3. I actually like Turok 3. But there are far more GE-influenced games in 2000 than HL1-influenced games.

Which games are you talking about? I'm assuming your choice of 2000 is deliberately at the peak of Goldeneye's impact, because any point after that would be utterly ludicrous. Even so, FPSes in 2000 were more like Quake than anything. Pretty much the only FPSes that ever imitated Goldeneye were made by either Rare themselves or ex-Rare people, hence Perfect Dark and Timesplitters.

Here's a list: https://www.gamefaqs.com/search_advanced

There's the World is Not Enough game, I guess, but that's a given. NOLF has a similar theme, being a spy game, but it's more Quakeish in its execution, and the NPC-interaction parts are straight out of Half-Life. Otherwise, the list is like a who's who of post-Quake design: SiN, Daikatana, KISS Psycho Circus, Soldier of Fortune, Shogo, Elite Force, Counter-Strike, Alien Resurrection, and the aforementioned Turok 3.

Really, I'd argue Call of Duty 4 was a bigger source of influence in that regard. Until Modern Warfare took off, the FPS genre didn't really embrace extremely linear design in the name of "cinematic" ambition. Crysis was overtly "cinematic", but was the opposite of HL-style linear design.

Call of Duty 4 wasn't even the first military series to imitate Half-Life. That would be Medal of Honor.
 
I guess it depends on what you consider "better" and even "source material", but the GBC Harry Potter games had story bits, characters and references from the books that weren't in the movies, though the games were based on the movies.
 

squall23

Member
Explain, plz.
I can't strategy games. :(

Tron Evolution
Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm
Saint Seiya: Soldier's Soul
Alice in Wonderland DS
The game changes various parts of the plot and it's characters. Depending on who you choose as your main character (a male or female), Shinn is less of a douchebag because he becomes good friends with the main female character, to the point that you'd think he'd actually end up with her instead. He's still less prissy if you choose the male main character, but he doesn't chill out like he does with the female. He also buddies up with Kamille from Zeta Gundam.

You'll eventually get to the Archangel escape mission where depending on which main character you choose, you'll either side with Kira and Archangel or Shinn and Minerva. Having a tragic but epic brawl between 2 teams of good guys. At this point, if you're the male MC, your ZAFT characters will leave. If you're the female MC, you'll stay for awhile until the reveal of the Destiny plan and then she and her faction leaves. In either case, the main character's faction will soon convince Shinn and Luna that they're dumbasses for trusting Durandal and defects to your faction. Rey doesn't. Although he and the Minerva can be convinced in the good ending route. Stella is also saveable.

It's better if you can experience it yourself because you'll get to understand how other characters like Amuro or Char or Kamille actually thinks of ZAFT and their pilots.
 
Basically the only instance of talking NPCs in an FPS was, like, Duke Nukem bimbos making quips, and also considerably less of it than in Half-Life.
Star Wars: Dark Forces. Also, System Shock was fully voiced although you never saw the NPCs onscreen because reasons. HL1 gets way too much credit in this area.

We're not talking about whether realistic or abstract environments are better; we're talking about whether Half-Life or Goldeneye was the first to deliver an FPS campaign based on an interconnected, immersive, realistic gameworld. And the answer is Half-Life.
HL1's level design is distinctly unrealistic, though, because it's essentially a set. There's nothing behind the set. Games like Prey, Dishonored, and even Thief, of course, were all influenced by GoldenEye to some degree. It's a fundamentally different way of thinking about level design. That said, linear level design was heavily driven by technological limitations. Crysis 2 is a linear FPS game because they didn't have the technology to create a city where you could enter every single building like they wanted. Crysis 2 wasn't linear because "Half-Life". The same can be arguably be said for many other games.

Which games are you talking about? I'm assuming your choice of 2000 is deliberately at the peak of Goldeneye's impact, because any point after that would be utterly ludicrous. Even so, FPSes in 2000 were more like Quake than anything. Pretty much the only FPSes that ever imitated Goldeneye were made by either Rare themselves or ex-Rare people, hence Perfect Dark and Timesplitters.
That is not true, at all. (GE is one of the most influential FPS games of all time.) 2000 saw the release of titles like Deus Ex, influenced by GE, Project IGI, a literal GE clone, and Medal of Honor: Underground also a GE clone. In a sense, GoldenEye's style of game design became the domain of immersive sims, and games like Hitman. Mini sandbox, objective driven, stealth elements.

You are somewhat right, though. For example, Counter Strike was influenced by GoldenEye, but it was also influenced by HL because it was an HL mod.

Call of Duty 4 wasn't even the first military series to imitate Half-Life. That would be Medal of Honor.
Metal of Honor was a GoldenEye clone originally, mind you. It was created because Steven Spielberg watched his son Max play GoldenEye.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Yeah, first thing I thought of. Wolf Among Us is also excellent, so I wonder if it's better than the comics.

I've only read like the first twenty issues of Fable, but yes I would put the game ahead of it.

It is a really solid prequel though, end of the game leads in rather nicely to the comics(well, forgiving that some relationships can vary based on game choices). Much preferred the tone of the game overall.
 
HL1's level design is distinctly unrealistic, though, because it's essentially a set. There's nothing behind the set. Games like Prey, Dishonored, and even Thief, of course, were all influenced by GoldenEye to some degree. It's a fundamentally different way of thinking about level design. That said, linear level design was heavily driven by technological limitations. Crysis 2 is a linear FPS game because they didn't have the technology to create a city where you could enter every single building like they wanted. Crysis 2 wasn't linear because "Half-Life". The same can be arguably be said for many other games.

How exactly are GoldenEyes levels not sets? Because they have more doors or some crap? If you're going to criticize Half-Life for being linear, you cannot ignore the fact that GoldenEye was equally as linear. Half the maps were literally just curved lines that funneled you towards the objective. You could backtrack a bit, but there was no real benefit in doing so. GE was definitely influential, but not for level design or narrative strength.
 
How exactly are GoldenEyes levels not sets? Because they have more doors or some crap?
They were designed to be architecturally and geographically sensible locations first and foremost. Facility is the purest expression of this ethos, followed by the Bunker. Not to mention stuff like Frigate. Quite a few of GE's missions are overhangs of GE's origins as a rail shooter. I think the Train is the best example of this. Level design was often genuinely interconnected in an architecturally conscious way. You look at Frigate, and you're essentially given free reign to explore the entire ship. No door is closed to you.

If you're going to criticize Half-Life for being linear, you cannot ignore the fact that GoldenEye was equally as linear. Half the maps were literally just curved lines that funneled you towards the objective.
Those maps were generally the rougher ones, that hadn't been fully fleshed out from the rail shooter design template. However, you'll note that, for example, you can open every carriage on the train. Facility was a rail shooter map at one point, but it was heavily fleshed out with looping sections, back areas, an side rooms designed to create a sense of a genuine place where people worked. And you could of course enter all these rooms. It was about level design that felt real, perhaps redundant, even.

GE was definitely influential, but not for level design or narrative strength.

Looking Glass Studios were huge fans of GoldenEye. GE's approach to level design, and mission design in general, were an influence much deeper and more subtle than people give it credit.

As for narrative, one of the things GE did very well was to replace cutscenes with interactive set pieces. Other games had toyed with this, like the Star Wars FPS titles, but GE's approach was extremely innovative, not to mention bold.

For example, in Facility you meet Alec Trevelyan, and the dialogue from the film is used almost verbatim.

"One half of everything is luck."

"And the other half?"

*Alarm blares*

"Fate."

Suddenly Russians burst through the doors, run down the stairs, and surround Alec. Despite some tech limitations and narrative truncation, Alec's "death" scene is recreated without ever taking control away from the player. This was amazing stuff for 1997.

Also in Facility, one of your objectives is to find a door decoder. You find Dr. Doak, and have a conversation with him, followed by him giving you the decoder. This is all seamless. No cutscenes, no player being locked in place or nailed to the floor.

The whole "walk around while NPCs talk" thing that HL2 gets a lot of credit for pioneering was done in GE and Perfect Dark years earlier. The difference is that Perfect Dark tended to allow players to walk away if they didn't want to keep listening to NPCs talk.

Similarly, as Bond, you fight through the Train, reach the room at the back of the train, and find Ourumov, Natalya, Alec, and Xenia. A brief stand-off. The player never loses control as they rescue Natalya. Natalya rushes the computer, and starts trying to trace Boris' connection, as you, the player, use your watch to cut the floor panel. As this occurs, Bond, Natayla, and Alec exchange a stripped down version of their dialogue from the film.

Strife in 1996 touched on some similar stuff, but it didn't seamlessly blend gameplay and storytelling in the way GoldenEye did. NPC interactions were like a traditional RPG.

In a lot of ways, GoldenEye was a lot more ambitious when in came to NPCs interacting with the player than something like Half-Life. Half-Life didn't have long sequences where an NPC followed you, discussed things with you, and performed environmental tasks.

When you play Call of Duty, and there's a friendly NPC who banters with you, and who opens doors for you, I feel that is ultimately GoldenEye's influence, not Half-Life's. You might say, "But what about Alyx? HL2?" Well, it's not like HL2 invented companion characters and extended escort missions. GoldenEye defined the "friendly female NPC who accompanies you, fights alongside you, and hacks things sometimes.

I must also point out that HL1 was completely rebooted in mid 1997, a month or so before GE was released. It's not unlikely that somebody at Valve played GE during HL1's development.

I think at the end of the day, the true successor to GE/PD's underlying design philosophy has been Hitman. Hitman is drowning in Bond references. But it's more than that. Hitman's approach to mission design is almost identical to something like Air Base in Perfect Dark.

In Air Base, you intercept an air hostess on her way from the cable car to the base, and steal her uniform. In disguise, you make your way into the base, past reception, but first have to double back upstairs to steal a briefcase and subdue the men who try to stop you. You take this briefcase into the air base, and place it on a conveyor belt with your weapons inside, so you can access them aboard Air Force One.

Up until this point, the air base guards will react with surprise if they see you with a firearm. You're a mere air hostess. What's interesting is Perfect Dark's "fuzzy" approach to AI. NPCs don't just shoot you for acting suspiciously. Unless you hide the gun quick smart, they'll go from curiosity to concern to alarm.

Now that you're clean, you then run through the metal detector corridor, and get to the security room to stop the bag being detected. Between you and the security room is a large area with an NSA agent. This guy faces the escalator. NSA agents work for Datadyne. Your air hostess disguise won't fool a Datadyne agent.

There are also other objectives such as obtaining a copy of the flight manifest. Eventually everything goes to shit and you're forced to fight NSA agents trying to take over the base. Bear in mind you have two routes to board Air Force One, and these change your starting position aboard the plane, and thus affect how you execute your undercover mission aboard the plane. Reaching your weapons is harder if you have to trespass where you're not supposed to.

This is uncannily like Hitman. And also Splinter Cell, particularly Chaos Theory.

Yes, PD and GE are different games, released three years apart. And it is important not to project PD's innovations onto its cruder predecessor. But they share a design philosophy. And GoldenEye/Perfect Dark's design philosophy never quite disappeared. it manifested in the "immersive sim" genre. Games like Prey are a lot like GoldenEye. Especially the way Prey handles NPC interactions, curiously. You know the bit in Prey where you wait for a robot to complete its cycle to get through a door? Perfect Dark had these cleaning robots that patrolled around and doors opened for them. You could hack these cleaning robots to change their routes and allow you access to a back area more easily.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
The Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm games

Naruto Clash of Ninja and Ultimate Ninja games. Fighting is nowhere near as deep as most fighting games, but it's still tons of fun, and it gives you all the best parts of the series (characters, action, etc.) with none of the bullshit.

Another vote for the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm games. Actually the best and most efficient way of experiencing that series. It almost makes it enjoyable.

They're just so much better than they deserve to be, and the production values are through the roof.

They're also super simplistic controls-wise, but have deceptively complex timing and positioning, so almost anyone with basic knowledge of a controller can figure things basically out in a couple rounds, but knowing the different states and trade-offs means it's like a high speed game of rock-paper-scissors if both players are up to it.
 

Phediuk

Member
Star Wars: Dark Forces. Also, System Shock was fully voiced although you never saw the NPCs onscreen because reasons. HL1 gets way too much credit in this area.

Dark Forces uses between-level cutscenes, and you answered yourself regarding System Shock, though true, SS is way closer to Half-Life's style of narrative and game structure than Goldeneye and was probably an influence on it.

HL1's level design is distinctly unrealistic, though, because it's essentially a set. There's nothing behind the set. Games like Prey, Dishonored, and even Thief, of course, were all influenced by GoldenEye to some degree. It's a fundamentally different way of thinking about level design. That said, linear level design was heavily driven by technological limitations. Crysis 2 is a linear FPS game because they didn't have the technology to create a city where you could enter every single building like they wanted. Crysis 2 wasn't linear because "Half-Life". The same can be arguably be said for many other games.

Ultima Underworld and System Shock were the progenitors to immersive sims, considering most of them were made by the same people. Goldeneye had nothing to do with it.

That is not true, at all. (GE is one of the most influential FPS games of all time.) 2000 saw the release of titles like Deus Ex, influenced by GE, Project IGI, a literal GE clone, and Medal of Honor: Underground also a GE clone. In a sense, GoldenEye's style of game design became the domain of immersive sims, and games like Hitman. Mini sandbox, objective driven, stealth elements.

Deus Ex has nothing to do with Goldeneye and everything to do with System Shock, Thief, and Ultima Underworld. You're really showing your warped view of history here.

You are somewhat right, though. For example, Counter Strike was influenced by GoldenEye, but it was also influenced by HL because it was an HL mod.

Counter-Strike has nothing at all to do with Goldeneye and doesn't play the least bit like it. It's a Quake derivative for god's sake.

Metal of Honor was a GoldenEye clone originally, mind you. It was created because Steven Spielberg watched his son Max play GoldenEye.

I mentioned Allied Assault and Frontline, which are straight up "Half-Life in WW2".
 

flak57

Member
As for narrative, one of the things GE did very well was to replace cutscenes with interactive set pieces. Other games had toyed with this, like the Star Wars FPS titles, but GE's approach was extremely innovative, not to mention bold.

I always liked how Trevelyan reacted to you still having your gun out in Statue

FYQNY6w.gif
 
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Ultima Underworld and System Shock were the progenitors to immersive sims, considering most of them were made by the same people. Goldeneye had nothing to do with it.
GoldenEye came between System Shock 1 and Thief/System Shock 2. You will note that the later Looking Glass games were suddenly far more focused on architectural realism.

Deus Ex has nothing to do with Goldeneye and everything to do with System Shock, Thief, and Ultima Underworld. You're really showing your warped view of history here.
Thief was directly influenced by GoldenEye (that's where Thief's difficulty system and approach to reusable level design came from, in particular), and Looking Glass were openly huge fans of GoldenEye, and during Deus Ex's early development, as "Shooter", it was pitched as being a hybrid of Thief, Half-Life, Fallout, and, yes, GoldenEye.

The architects of late 90's immersive sim design repeatedly referred to GoldenEye as something they played and took influence from. The Hitman series, which is also an immersive sim, arguably, has a massive James Bond fetish.

Counter-Strike has nothing at all to do with Goldeneye and doesn't play the least bit like it. It's a Quake derivative for god's sake.
Counter Strike's beta had a recreation of Facility.

And quite curiously, Counter-Strike was a dramatic shift from its predecessor Action Quake 2 in that it was objective-based. Counter-Strike is not about killing the other team specifically, but rather surviving to complete objectives. IMO, this is GoldenEye's influence on the genre as a whole, something it lifted wholesale from Mario 64.

I mentioned Allied Assault and Frontline, which are straight up "Half-Life in WW2".
That is a fair enough point.
 

Phediuk

Member
Thief was directly influenced by GoldenEye (that's where Thief's difficulty system and approach to reusable level design came from, in particular), and Looking Glass were openly huge fans of GoldenEye, and during Deus Ex's early development, as "Shooter", it was pitched as being a hybrid of Thief, Half-Life, Fallout, and, yes, GoldenEye.

Point taken regarding Thief's difficulty system, but Looking Glass were hardly new to non-linear, contiguous level design: see System Shock and Ultima Underworld. Of course, if you want to argue that those games have been way more influential than Goldeneye, I'd completely agree. And thank you for confirming that Half-Life was a direct influence on Deus Ex.

Counter Strike's beta had a recreation of Facility.

Whoop dee doo.

And quite curiously, Counter-Strike was a dramatic shift from its predecessor Action Quake 2 in that it was objective-based. Counter-Strike is not about killing the other team specifically, but rather surviving to complete objectives. IMO, this is GoldenEye's influence on the genre as a whole, something it lifted wholesale from Mario 64.

Goldeneye had nothing to do with Counter-Strike. Minh Lee is on record saying Rainbow Six was his primary influence:

"After that, in 1999, when the SDK for Half Life came out - I instantly picked it up. I had this idea in my mind of a "special force - terrorist" themed mod. In that time he watched a lot of movies like Air Force One and played the Rainbow Six game, which had a huge influence on Counter-Strike."

Curiously, he doesn't mention Goldeneye at all. Huh.

Source: https://translate.google.ca/transla...-vyvojarem-counter-strike?start=5&prev=search

That is a fair enough point.

Agreed.
 
Goldeneye had nothing to do with Counter-Strike. Minh Lee is on record saying Rainbow Six was his primary influence:
Good catch. Rainbow 6 leading into Counter-Strike makes sense. Although I will note that, again, Counter Strike featured one of GE's most iconic MP maps, and also used GE weapon sounds, IIRC. Additionally, when Minh Lee/Gooseman was working on Navy Seal Quake prior to the development of Counter-Strike, he mentioned that he wanted to make an MP-map akin to Frigate. http://www.insideqc.com/interviews/gooseman.shtml

Which appears to be where this came from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOwPcmcOSNY

So it certainly is demonstrable that Minh Lee was a fan of GoldenEye and saw it as a source of influence. (He literally made his own version of Frigate from GoldenEye.)

So yeah, the idea that Goldeneye invented objectives is lol.
GoldenEye's objective system was directly taken from Mario 64. It didn't invent anything. It did, however, codify a particular style of objective-based FPS design relevant to the FPS genre.

Frankly, I think Looking Glass should get a lot more credit than it does.
That is true. Great developer.
 

Phediuk

Member
GoldenEye's objective system was directly taken from Mario 64. It didn't invent anything. It did, however, codify a particular style of objective-based FPS design relevant to the FPS genre.

Nah, looks like System Shock, Half-Life, and Rainbow Six were all bigger influences.

Goldeneye did, however, influence Thief's difficulty levels, and was one of like a dozen cited influences on Deus Ex (which also included System Shock and Half-Life), so, uhh, I guess that's something?
 
Scott Pilgrim game by Ubisoft. Movie was good, the game was even better.

Edit: It's based on the comic, but whatever 😃

Came to say this. I really can't stand the comics and I liked the movie enough for the most part, but the game is a pretty fantastic Kunio clone.
 
Goldeneye did, however, influence Thief's difficulty levels
That's a sort of "tip of the iceberg" deal. Looking Glass mentioned they were "particularly struck" by the difficulty system, but more pertinently they mentioned that "One of the Thief team's favorite games during development was Goldeneye on the N64."
That's fairly unambiguous praise. If a game developer making an FPS said, "One of my favorite games during development was Call of Duty: Modern Warfare", nobody would dance around trying to claim the game was not in fact heavily influenced by Modern Warfare.

In some ways, Looking Glass were much better at high level execution than Rareware. For example, GoldenEye's stealth system was extremely innovative, but mechanically crude. (Shots fired in succession were increasingly loud, thus reaching AI further away.) Thief's implementation of sound was much more elaborate, but one can imagine Looking Glass found GE's design ideas very interesting because it was, after all, one of their favorite games.

And that's the sticking point. It's my view that Looking Glass/Looking Glass-influenced games shifted direction in a few significant ways after GoldenEye was released. GE did many cool and innovative things. It was a source of inspiration for other game designers. Sure, other people came to similar results independently, but there's a fairly clear thread connecting GE to the immersive sim school of game design.

The non-immersive sim games are another matter. Games such as Syphon Filter, Medal of Honor, and Project IGI were explicitly created in response to GoldenEye. And Eurocom created their own spin on the GE formula that likely influenced developers who played those games. One could argue that the nature of influence means that everything influenced by Syphon Filter, including later Metal Gear Solid titles "owes" something to GoldenEye.
 

Phediuk

Member
In some ways, Looking Glass were much better at high level execution than Rareware.

Agreed, but more like every way.

For example, GoldenEye's stealth system was extremely innovative, but mechanically crude.

"Crude" is right; it was no more complex, and arguably simpler, than what System Shock had already done. Even Wolfenstein 3D's stealth was only slightly cruder than what Goldeneye did.

Thief's implementation of sound was much more elaborate, but one can imagine Looking Glass found GE's design ideas very interesting because it was, after all, one of their favorite games.

Agreed. Looking Glass's sound design was second-to-none for its time.

And that's the sticking point. It's my view that Looking Glass/Looking Glass-influenced games shifted direction in a few significant ways after GoldenEye was released. GE did many cool and innovative things. It was a source of inspiration for other game designers. Sure, other people came to similar results independently, but there's a fairly clear thread connecting GE to the immersive sim school of game design.

Agreed. Goldeneye was one of the influences on Thief, particularly its difficulty system. It was one of a bunch of influences on Deus Ex, though Spector also explicitly cited Half-Life and had previously worked on System Shock, with which DE has much in common. And Quake and Rainbow Six were more important for multiplayer.

hope this clears things up.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Riddick and Goldeneye are the perfect examples.

Personally, I will add Fester's Quest. Call me crazy.

On that note, Addams Family Pinball was really enjoyable. In fact, I think a lot of pinball games fit this category (Rollergames, Elvira, AC/DC)
 

PrimeBeef

Member
I always thought the Ninja Turtles arcade game was way cooler and more enthralling than the actual show was.
Wouldn't that be a licened product that was better than a licensed that was worse than the original. The show and the movies were far worse than the comics.
 
Isn't this statement so true that the writer of the original Novels is actually super pissed about the game's success?
No he's just pissed he just signed the rights away for a lump sum and not for a part of the gross.

Really from everything I heard the only major thing that the games substantially have over the books is they give a much more satisfying ending to the series. Because the books end where the games start with Geralt and Yen killed and Ciri on the run from Eredin and the Wild Hunt.
 
"Crude" is right; it was no more complex, and arguably simpler, than what System Shock had already done. Even Wolfenstein 3D's stealth was only slightly cruder than what Goldeneye did.
C'mon, that's simply not true. The essential innovation was present in neither of those games. In GE, different weapons have different loudness values. As you fire more shots in rapid succession, a multiplier is applied, increasing the radius of the sound. So in Facility and Bunker, the player is encouraged to use their silenced PP7 and space out their shots. Firing rapidly, or using unsilenced weapons, will attract AI from nearby rooms. This does depend on portal/room placement, though. Pretty much every modern stealth FPS uses some version of this system.

edit:

Also, this mechanic only worked because headshots were a one hit kill regardless of weapon damage, unless an enemy was wearing headgear. Prior to GoldenEye, "headshot = 1HK" wasn't codified in stealth FPS design language, if such a thing existed.

Wolfenstein: TNO is quite curious in that it adds an additional layer to this idea. where silenced headshots now penetrate helmets for a 1HK if the enemy is unaware of you when you take the shot.
 
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