That's true and it kind saved me while I was waiting for the controls to figure out I was pointing up during one of the boss fights. (Not the last fight though, I gave up trying to do that during the last fight.)
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LTTP || Zelda: Skyward Sword || and my vacation from the evil HD consoles [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter jetsetfluken
- Start date
That's true and it kind saved me while I was waiting for the controls to figure out I was pointing up during one of the boss fights. (Not the last fight though, I gave up trying to do that during the last fight.)
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Or c. You're aware that dual analogue controllers exist.
That's really strange, the controller never de synchronized with me in the entire game (maybe once, but that was it.)
wandering goat
Member
People may call me an ass for thinking so, but outside of possibly defective controllers, I think the reason some people are having trouble with / hating the controls is because they're not good at playing the game. With motion controls comes the necessity to accurately move in a way that thumb twiddling to press buttons on normal controllers have not prepared people for, and I think that there is a specific degree of motor control required that some people just have trouble grasping. Not a personal fault that someone should be criticized for or anything, but I think that it would explain why some people have absolutely no problems with the controls and think they're near flawless, and others can't seem to get things working with consistency. Just a guess, but I would not be surprised considering how integral making accurate, correctly angled movements and proper timing is in the game.
lol wut. I've played all of them except for the DS games and CDI. Loved them all to death, altough TP wasn't as good as I had hoped.
The motion controls were okay, but If I could choose, I'l rather had played with with a standard controller.
Also that boss you had to fight 3 fucking times and all the Silent realms is one of the biggest POS I've ever had the play. Fuck that shit.
I'll allow for the possibility that there is interference or something that's causing the calibration to get messed up, but I played the game twice, for close to 100 hours, on both PC and on an actual Wii, and I ran into calibration issues so rarely they were almost a nonissue. They existed, but they weren't the game-breaking monstrosity so many make them out to be. I'll agree it would have been a better experience if the controls worked 100% of the time. That is a given. But the pros so vastly outweigh the cons that I can't imagine going back. Skyward Sword is simply a joy to play.
The rate of succes for me was high enough, as high as a regular control. See, when I made a mistake an imput the wrong move, it was my fault. And that happened to me not only in SS, but in OoT3D too! A mistake is a mistake and one should not claim that it's the controls and not the player.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Here's my two cents on the subject:
If Skyward Sword used a dual analogue as a controller, it would be a better game. This is a belief I would defend to the bitter end.
Now, for all the people blaming my dissatisfaction with the controls on my own supposed inability to play the game 'right', let me ask you this;
What do motion controls add to the game? What do they add to the experience that you could not get with a standard controller?
It can't be immersion, because, let's face it, the whole action of flicking your wrist in quick sharp movements with zero feedback does not resemble sword-play in any way, shape or form. No, as far as I'm concerned, this only serves to emphasise the disconnect between player and game. With a standard controller, all actions are mapped to either buttons or very minor, precise movements of the thumbs/fingers. The player doesn't notice the disconnect as much because it's not as pronounced. When you're flicking your wrist in thin air, the disconnect becomes considerably more apparent.
So, that's immersion out the window. So maybe the motion controls add precision? Well, I'll be the first one to say they do not. Once again, the lack of user feedback hurts the experience here. When flying the bird, for example, when the player tries to dive, they can never be sure when they've reached an angle with their wii-mote that results in maximum dive. Thus, they can stray out of the bounding box and run into various issues as the wii-mote recalibrates. This was a particularly annoying issue for me, but let's just give the defenders the benefit of the doubt here and assume they never, ever had these issues and I'm just 'doing it wrong'. Even if the player does not run into calibration issues, the motion controls are still wildly more imprecise than analogue sticks for anything other than aiming with the bow/sling. Controlling the beetle is floaty and, again, the lack of feedback, coupled with the beetle's slow turning speed results in a situation where the player is not quite certain where exactly they're directing it to go, a problem that simply would not be there with an analogue stick.
As far as I'm concerned, the motion controls add NOTHING to the experience, other than an arbitrary, contrived control method that only serves to pull the player out of the experience with immersion-breaking, exaggerated player movements(more exaggerated than moving an analogue stick, I mean) and a demand to learn to accomodate the various technical issues with the method with no clear advantage.
I don't 'hate' motion controls. I don't think the dual analogue setup is the ultimate control method. I do believe, however, that the motion controls in Skyward Sword add nothing to the game and could've been removed in favour of a dual analogue setup with no downsides. Hell, we'd even have camera controls
So, Skyward Sword, motion control defenders, let's hear it from your side; why does Skyward Sword need motion controls? What do they add to the game? Why is such a control setup superior to dual analogue? Let's not just stand on either side of a line just shouting 'for' or 'against'. I've made my case against the game's control scheme, let's hear the argument for it.
If Skyward Sword used a dual analogue as a controller, it would be a better game. This is a belief I would defend to the bitter end.
Now, for all the people blaming my dissatisfaction with the controls on my own supposed inability to play the game 'right', let me ask you this;
What do motion controls add to the game? What do they add to the experience that you could not get with a standard controller?
It can't be immersion, because, let's face it, the whole action of flicking your wrist in quick sharp movements with zero feedback does not resemble sword-play in any way, shape or form. No, as far as I'm concerned, this only serves to emphasise the disconnect between player and game. With a standard controller, all actions are mapped to either buttons or very minor, precise movements of the thumbs/fingers. The player doesn't notice the disconnect as much because it's not as pronounced. When you're flicking your wrist in thin air, the disconnect becomes considerably more apparent.
So, that's immersion out the window. So maybe the motion controls add precision? Well, I'll be the first one to say they do not. Once again, the lack of user feedback hurts the experience here. When flying the bird, for example, when the player tries to dive, they can never be sure when they've reached an angle with their wii-mote that results in maximum dive. Thus, they can stray out of the bounding box and run into various issues as the wii-mote recalibrates. This was a particularly annoying issue for me, but let's just give the defenders the benefit of the doubt here and assume they never, ever had these issues and I'm just 'doing it wrong'. Even if the player does not run into calibration issues, the motion controls are still wildly more imprecise than analogue sticks for anything other than aiming with the bow/sling. Controlling the beetle is floaty and, again, the lack of feedback, coupled with the beetle's slow turning speed results in a situation where the player is not quite certain where exactly they're directing it to go, a problem that simply would not be there with an analogue stick.
As far as I'm concerned, the motion controls add NOTHING to the experience, other than an arbitrary, contrived control method that only serves to pull the player out of the experience with immersion-breaking, exaggerated player movements(more exaggerated than moving an analogue stick, I mean) and a demand to learn to accomodate the various technical issues with the method with no clear advantage.
I don't 'hate' motion controls. I don't think the dual analogue setup is the ultimate control method. I do believe, however, that the motion controls in Skyward Sword add nothing to the game and could've been removed in favour of a dual analogue setup with no downsides. Hell, we'd even have camera controls
So, Skyward Sword, motion control defenders, let's hear it from your side; why does Skyward Sword need motion controls? What do they add to the game? Why is such a control setup superior to dual analogue? Let's not just stand on either side of a line just shouting 'for' or 'against'. I've made my case against the game's control scheme, let's hear the argument for it.
The controls don't stay exactly calibrated all the time though. It's not like they are wildly inconsistent, but after a certain amount of time you'll need to recenter or recalibrate due to their nature.
Because they are better.
Your argument isn't much more than "I don't like this thing."
Motion control gives you precise control over a sword in 3D space. Link mimics your actions. That's the advantage and that's what they add.
civilstrife
Member
The controls are the only saving grace of this horrendous mess of a Zelda game.
Dual analogue? How would you implement that into SkywardSword? I'm at loss.
Trancetronic
Member
I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. But once I beat it, I felt no incentive to back to playing it, not even on Hero Mode. It just lacks the "hey lets do that again" of previous Zeldas, like OoT, MM and definitely LttP. It was too story driven, the overworld was barren, it was too puzzle centric(not that I don't like puzzles, but most areas were less exploring and more about puzzle solving), and the game was honestly linear at best. Not to mention the battle was Demise was like "oh thats it?" compared to fighting Ganon in previous Zeldas.
It's still a lovely game but I found TP more replayable than Skyward Sword. *puts up flameshield*
It's still a lovely game but I found TP more replayable than Skyward Sword. *puts up flameshield*
Twilight Princess is another damn good game once you trudge through the intro.
In a perfect world there would be no need for your flameshield. But many of us as gamers apparently haven't grown past speaking hyperbole. Something is either the absolute best or the absolute worst it seems.
Hence why I wished they did something like push left on the d-pad always recenters. (Since I still have no idea how you recenter when you had the sword out. I think I could have pulled out the bow, centered by pushing down, then bring my sword back out. Still last I checked left and right on the d-pad did nothing so they should have used it.)
Doing skyward strikes helps keep the sword on track. Nintendo was clever about that at least. It's implemented in puzzles and to activate goddess stones, so you often have a reason to use it.
Trancetronic
Member
TP's intro is definitely not bad, but just like damn, can I get to the overworld. I loved TP's overworld with a passion. Although most of it its empty, there are caves you can explore, grottos you can dig in the wolf form in, enemies, the overall sense of exploration.
Ok you know what, screw the haters. I think Twilight Princess's overworld was fantastic. I spent hours upon hours trying to get all the grottos and exploring the caves. The only thing I hate about that game is they placed Pieces of Heart in dungeons. Like, really?
shadyspace
Banned
I just want Zelda 3DS to be announced already so we can have an idea of where this franchise is headed after SS. I really have no idea, which is very cool.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Map the different slash directions to the right analogue stick. Done. All the controls for the other stuff, like the flying, etc. have been done on dual analogue in other games and control better.
Crunched said:
We already know the wii-mote suffers from lag. It's noticeable on the wii Home menu, and is quite clear when you're flying the bird or controlling the beetle. An analogue stick would be more precise for these segments, no question.
As for the sword-fighting, Link really doesn't mimic your actions with any great degree of accuracy. If you change the direction of your swing before you perform it too fast it won't register your intended direction properly half the time, and besides, all the motion controls detect is what direction in a 360 degree plane you're swinging and then having Link swing in that direction. You basically just swing up, down, left, right, or diagonally. This could be mapped to the right analogue stick and be considerably more precise.
Like I said, I have yet to see what motion controls add to the game, other than a disconnect and lack of feedback for the player.
SaintMadeOfPlaster
Member
Every single one of your posts is gold.
PairOfFilthySocks said:
Immersion? If you're doing it right at least.
At the end of the day, if you don't like the controls for the game, you suck at them. This isn't just directed at you, Socks, but everyone who doesn't like them. The only reason that the controls can be considered brilliant and (almost) flawless to many people, but a broken mess to others is that the others just suck at it.
I'm figuring they'll probably announce Majora's Mask at E3. (Of course I'm still waiting for the Zero Mission version of Metroid 2 but I'll buy MM if they release it on the 3DS.) But after that they'll probably do a new 3ds Zelda game.
Twilight Princess is so good in what it does, you won't hear me arguing about that. But I think Skyward Sword was the perfect follow up. More compact dungeons, a lighthearted mood, a brighter art style, and so on. It went in a completely different direction in many ways. A great complement to TP.
I disagree. You can't map the controls to an analog stick because you can't control depth with an analog stick.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
The only time depth is used in the sword-fighting is for thrusts. This can be mapped to a button, or to clicking the right stick in. All the other moves are done on the xy plane, aside from the skyward strike, which could also be mapped to a button. Where else in the game is the z plane so important that it cannot be replicated on a standard pad?
You find swinging a remote at empty air with no response immersive?
SaintMadeOfPlaster said:
Mighty fine deconstruction of my argument, right there.
This sounds like every Zelda 3D game. I still haven't played through my copy of SS, but this is kind of the reason I still haven't. And this was supposed to be the Zelda that made drastic forward-thinking strides....
So it's only forward thinking if the changes coincide with your wishes? Cool.
You say linear like it's a bad thing.
Trancetronic
Member
Well I don't mind it, but there really was no exploration in SS. It wasn't like LttP or OoT(although not as much) where you can venture off the beaten path and just explore for the sake of exploring. People do dungeons out of order in those games, too.
You think pressing just a button more immersive?Pressing a button doesn't resemble sword play in any form and is in no way more immersive than swinging your wiimote.
After I played Skyward Sword, playing other games where you had to swing your sword felt absolutely unimmersive and unresponsive. Heck, I just mash the button in Assassins Creed 2 because the guard always blocks the attack and it doesn't feel that I will get a single hit unless I do that insta-kill counterattack.
And to say it, after some complained about the lag, I tried it for myself and I didn't notice it. But I also don't notice input lag that "plagues" the HDTV,so...
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Count me as one of the guys who loved Skyward Sword and thinks that it is one of the better Zelda games. It has definitely problems, like the empty sky, the disconnected areas (Groose allows you to catapult you to any minigame, but not any warp point), Fi constantly popping up, having that message for every loot item you collect reappear after you start the game and the disappointing final fight.
But there is so much good stuff for that. The sidequests are the best since Majoras Mask, closely tied to the characters, with several extra cutscenes, finally giving you the option to do it in different ways. The soundtrack is one of the best in the entire Zelda series, with the wonderful Theme for Fi and lots of other tracks, like the Lanayru Sand Sea.
The Bosses are challenging again, the items are used more times (one common complaint about TP was that there were too much items who were used rarely), the new controls gave me some of the greatest moments the I ever have experienced (Kolokotos!) and I think the graphics are quite wonderful.
I loved every 3D-Zelda and this game is no exception.
Yes! Do you find a button press inmersive? I belive not.
Wouldn't work. What difference that makes from the motion controled sword? You still position the sword around you, you'd still have the "above certain max speed the swing/analog move will trigger an slash"
What lag
I.. I remeber seing lag on a video showing both the player and the screen, but while I was playing. Nope, didn't feel any at all. The motion controled sword consist in two parts:
1. Position of your sword relative to your body. This makes the enemies react and most of them try to block to that direction.
2. Easy sword manipulation : Instead of an ugly dual analog implemetation where the player would have to control link with one Stick and the sword with the other, making the face buttons of the CC useless, we get an easy way to order link to do an slash in a given direction we want. I can't see how would you add : Real Time Item manipulation, acces to the map, the "A" button for running and dodgin in the CC.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
As I said earlier-yes. There are more ways to immerse the player than the input method. When you have actions assigned to buttons, the player connects the button to the action and focuses on other aspects of the game. When the player has to make exaggerated gestures that aren't even replicated faithfully on-screen, the disconnect between player and game becomes much more obvious.
I remain confident that the most minor of effort with a dual analogue control scheme would produce something both more precise and more responsive than the wii-mote/nunchuck setup.
I definitely notice lag on the wii-mote, even in the Wii home menu. I can notice it on the File select screen in Zelda, or when making a sharp turn when flying on the bird or controlling the beetle. It almost feels like using a mouse in a PC game with V-Sync switched on. It seems to be a technical issue with the hardware itself, but is very much relevant when speaking of a game that requires so much precision with the controller. As far as I'm concerned, the controller is not responsive enough for the game.What lag
Alright, now we're getting somewhere. At first, the motion controls certainly appear to be more intuitive, yes. However, it soon becomes clear, at least to me, that the range of abilities offered by the controller is so limited, that it would be better off to just stick with dual analogue. Link can only slash on a 2D plane, and his slashes are no-where near 1:1 with the player. I don't think using the right stick for this would be 'ugly'; in fact I think a very effective control scheme for the standard controller that implements all the abilities of the motion controls is very possible. Then we wouldn't have to give up precision, responsiveness, and camera control to chase a concept that the wii-mote really isn't up to the task of pulling off. I'm sorry, but the novelty of being able to wave your hand around in a poor imitation of wielding a sword does not make up for unresponsiveness, imprecision and calibration issues.
The image quality is dreadful while playing on the wii. I was actually shocked by how bad it looked while I was playing it.
I played it on Wii after playing on Dolphin. I used a 42" plasma. It looked nothing like it did on PC, but I sit about 20 feet back. IQ issues on most console games don't bother me at that distance. The art style still got across crystal clear.
One thing I am still blown away by is the impressionistic DoF. Skyward Sword is second only to The Witcher 2 for me as far as DoF goes. It's beautiful to look at.
Well this is a case of ymmv, to me, I got more inmersed with the motion controled sword. The gestures were not exagerated at all, while is not a waggle fest like TP Wii, you don't do the full swing to trigger one, but it was enough to make me feel that I was moving the sword.
That's something, I've never noticed lag on the Menu. I agree there is some sort of input lag, since the slash would trigger after you finish your slash with the Mote, but it was insignificant for me while playing the game. For others, yeah there is litle lag when flying on the bird or controlling the beetle, I agree that some kind of analog implementation would have make the lag to go away, but all the bettle and flying sections where build around this, so you never needed precision to achieve something. Also, it made the bird and the bettle easy to use for newcomers, especially those who have probles adapting to flying/swiming sections with inverted axis and other things.
I dont see how you could add camera control and sword control while controling link. Plus the objective was clearly to not give 1:1 attacks with the sword, but offer more options than previous Zelda games.
The game never loses "sync" or whatever you guys think it does. It doesn't use the Wii sensor bar at all, once you get into the game it's Motion Plus all the way. Nintendo didn't help things by putting up a really weird help message about losing sync, but that doesn't ever happen.
When you press a button to use an item that activates pointer controls, wherever your Wiimote is pointing (even the wall away from the TV) is now the center of the screen. If you never want to "lose sync," point the Wiimote at the center of your TV before activating the item. Or realize it doesn't use the sensor bar and don't point it at the TV, just be aware of what's going on.
You can always press the assigned button to make the current pointer direction the new center of the screen, but there really is no syncing or loss of sync or whatever.
This is precious. Immersion comes when the controls melt away in your mind and you're just playing the game without a single conscious thought given to the input method. It's happened often in the past without laggy, imprecise motion controls, and I hope that trend continues in the future.
I obviously learned to deal with the shortcomings in order to gain proficiency with the game, but mastering awkward motion controls doesn't suddenly make them better. In other words I was great at playing the game but I can also see how the controls aren't perfect or hell, even ideal, and why others would not like them.
No flameshield needed. I've played through TP like four times. Barring a couple stumbles in the beginning, it's a fantastic game.
That said, I still liked SS, just not for the same reasons I like other Zelda games. Each one has managed to have something I like more than the others.
Baby Yoshi
Banned
Have you really played the game ? you can rotate the wiimote in place to move the character wrist,this way in the same postion you can hold the sword with the blade in vertical or horizontal,plus in a analogue stick if you wanted to move the sword to the left to then cut right-left the system will register was a left cut.
Item menu's all gyro. However, everything in the game is constantly calibrating based off the sensor bar, so the more you remove it from view the remote's camera, the more junk data gets in the way.
Ultimadrago
Member
*opens mouth to speak*
You know what, I've been through this on Gaf already, so I won't be long.
I finished it, but it was still disappointing as heck (and my expectations weren't notably high). Boring characters, [bad] motion controls, flying (See: motion controls), stamina (which added very little to my experience), little to explore/run into on your own, Fi (Yes, you've heard it a million times, here it is said once more).
A plus I can give is that it had some solid dungeon design. The music was nicely orchestrated, but much of it forgettable
.
Better than WW? No.
Better than TP? Perhaps, but even then, not by much.
You know what, I've been through this on Gaf already, so I won't be long.
I finished it, but it was still disappointing as heck (and my expectations weren't notably high). Boring characters, [bad] motion controls, flying (See: motion controls), stamina (which added very little to my experience), little to explore/run into on your own, Fi (Yes, you've heard it a million times, here it is said once more).
A plus I can give is that it had some solid dungeon design. The music was nicely orchestrated, but much of it forgettable
Fi's Farewell and the main theme are the only ones coming to my head at this moment
Better than WW? No.
Better than TP? Perhaps, but even then, not by much.
ThaiGrocer
Member
My remote never had sync issues, even during low battery. Although, I could imagine having that issue if I were playing Skyward Sword in a romantic, candle-lit setting.
That's how I play every game with my best friend.