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Majority of U.S. Muslims Now Support Gay Marriage, While White Evangelical Christians Remain Opposed

Airola

Member
Speaking as a Christian, why the heck would I judge who another person loves? That's not what Jesus taught and how he lived. This is one area in which I am extremely disappointed with my fellow Christians.

Well, loving someone is one thing. Getting married in a church setting is another.
Marriage in Biblical sense is not about two people who love each other getting together. It's about a male and a female joining together to be one. It's nothing more, it's nothing less.

What comes to state-sanctioned marriage, that's a whole another issue and I think that's more up to a debate than what Christian marriage is.
My personal view is that states should be able to allow two same-gender persons to be wed in a "civil union" of sorts if they want to, and churches should be allowed to see marriage as something applicable to only male and female couples.
 

Dad.

Member
Except in Christianity the text it is founded on, The New Testament, says to reach out to sinners and love them as if they were Christ. And to not do that is to not do it to Christ. So what you see in America is a bunch of people who fit the classification of the Sadducees and would not be considered fundamental Christians according to the faith itself.

The juxtaposition with Islam is that the fundamental Islamist could advocate killing a gay person if they would not stop their sin according to sharia law.

Fundamentalist Christians in America tend to be blanket words used by the secular media to really paint a picture of stupid people who refute science and believe the world is 2000 years old, possibly flat, and vote to hide sin from the public all the while waiting to point out their hypocrisy when exposed.

Westernized Muslims in America tend to be held up as whataboutisms when people criticize the Islam societies for numerous reasons by the same media.
Except Evangelical Christians have signficantly more sway over American politics. They were probably the biggest demographic preventing in gays from getting equal rights earlier.
 

Greedings

Member
It's a little strange to me that "Muslim" is defined as a group, then "white, evangelical christian" is defined as another. I think that "Muslim" is likely to be more heterogeneous than "white, evangelical christian."
 

JDB

Banned
Straw man bull crap. I've known religious people all my life mostly Presbyterian but some protestant and evangelicals and they weren't anti gay except for the odd really old one. this writer is pushing an agenda like it's his job
Let us know when you're releasing your poll.
 

Ke0

Member
Well, loving someone is one thing. Getting married in a church setting is another.
Marriage in Biblical sense is not about two people who love each other getting together. It's about a male and a female joining together to be one. It's nothing more, it's nothing less.

What comes to state-sanctioned marriage, that's a whole another issue and I think that's more up to a debate than what Christian marriage is.
My personal view is that states should be able to allow two same-gender persons to be wed in a "civil union" of sorts if they want to, and churches should be allowed to see marriage as something applicable to only male and female couples.

Separate but equal doesn't tend to actually work in practice. Besides if I understand the American culture, most gay people aren't even getting married in Churches, and the venue itself is pointless argument. It seems to me that people are just simply against two gay people marrying. The problem is 1. America isn't really a "Christian nation" so Christian laws shouldn't be dictating federal and state laws (this has always been humorous to me given the fear of Sharia), and 2, Christians don't own the word "marriage" so they really shouldn't be able to regulate who is allowed to partake in it and who isn't. 3. If you stay faithful to scripture there are A LOT more groups of people other than LGBTQ who shouldn't allowed to be married. You start running into so many issues at that point.
 
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My personal view is that states should be able to allow two same-gender persons to be wed in a "civil union" of sorts if they want to, and churches should be allowed to see marriage as something applicable to only male and female couples.
So... "the State" should ignore church marriages altogether and only issue civil union licenses to all couples. I can get with that. "The State" should treat all citizens equally and ignore everyone's invisible deities and their rules.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So... "the State" should ignore church marriages altogether and only issue civil union licenses to all couples. I can get with that. "The State" should treat all citizens equally and ignore everyone's invisible deities and their rules.

That sounds like a great idea.
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
So... "the State" should ignore church marriages altogether and only issue civil union licenses to all couples. I can get with that. "The State" should treat all citizens equally and ignore everyone's invisible deities and their rules.

I've seen that solution (essentially "empty marriage of legal meaning") proposed by a number of people on both sides of the specific issue, and always with an implicit libertarian leaning behind it.

But it doesn't make sense. The State has a very good reason to be involved in marriage, because it is deeply intertwined with assumed paternity, and that has enormous legal consequences across the board. Family law becomes even more of a bloodbath if you subsume the special case of marriage under generic civil contracts between any two persons and do not have a clear framework for handling its unique consequences.

You can scarcely have a coherent legal system if you fail to clearly recognize the significance of relationships between men and women, in that they can and do regularly result in the creation new persons & citizens -- regardless of any initial intent to have children, because even those married men and women who express a disinterest in children up front tend to end up having them eventually -- and this means that a new child, with a very serious claim to know and be properly related to his or her parents, is always a very real potential that has to be accommodated as organically as possible.
 

Moneal

Member
I've seen that solution (essentially "empty marriage of legal meaning") proposed by a number of people on both sides of the specific issue, and always with an implicit libertarian leaning behind it.

But it doesn't make sense. The State has a very good reason to be involved in marriage, because it is deeply intertwined with assumed paternity, and that has enormous legal consequences across the board. Family law becomes even more of a bloodbath if you subsume the special case of marriage under generic civil contracts between any two persons and do not have a clear framework for handling its unique consequences.

You can scarcely have a coherent legal system if you fail to clearly recognize the significance of relationships between men and women, in that they can and do regularly result in the creation new persons & citizens -- regardless of any initial intent to have children, because even those married men and women who express a disinterest in children up front tend to end up having them eventually -- and this means that a new child, with a very serious claim to know and be properly related to his or her parents, is always a very real potential that has to be accommodated as organically as possible.

Why do we have that in the legal system any more? We have test to get rid of assumed paternity.
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
Why do we have that in the legal system any more? We have test to get rid of assumed paternity.

First, because an organic and social solution is far more humane than asking each couple and infant to be verified by a test procedure. It insults the integrity of families to suggest they should ever have to undergo genetic testing in order to attain legitimacy, rather than simply following in the steps of publicly declaring a marriage commitment beforehand. If the two are married, no proof or suspicion of any kind need be offered; this is immediately the man legally vested as father with zero additional proof or documentation -- and testing is only for the broken cases where a challenge and accusation is at stake, but these are inherently ugly to deal with.

Second, because marriage isn't just a paternity test, it's a preparatory gesture that is rightly given great favor and advantage in the law (not nearly enough today, to be honest) as incentive. In every single cultural and historical corner of our planet, it has marked a social event that not only unifies two people, but involves their families and communities in explicitly recognizing and making a place for a new family branch; community witness to marriage always meant more than simply notarizing a form, after all. To ensure as much as possible that birth happens under the conditions of advance commitment, recognition by extended family, and declaration before some community of persons is one of the most important goals of making any family law or legal structures humane and functional.
 
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Moneal

Member
First, because an organic and social solution is far more humane than asking each couple and infant to be verified by a test procedure. It insults the integrity of families to suggest they should ever have to undergo genetic testing in order to attain legitimacy, rather than simply following in the steps of publicly declaring a marriage commitment beforehand. If the two are married, no proof or suspicion of any kind need be offered; this is immediately the man legally vested as father with zero additional proof or documentation -- and testing is only for the broken cases where a challenge and accusation is at stake, but these are inherently ugly to deal with.

Second, because marriage isn't just a paternity test, it's a preparatory gesture that is rightly given great favor and advantage in the law (not nearly enough today, to be honest) as incentive. In every single cultural and historical corner of our planet, it has marked a social event that not only unifies two people, but involves their families and communities in explicitly recognizing and making a place for a new family branch; community witness to marriage always meant more than simply notarizing a form, after all. To ensure as much as possible that birth happens under the conditions of advance commitment, recognition by extended family, and declaration before some community of persons is one of the most important goals of making any family law or legal structures humane and functional.

This would be the only time the legal system would have any issue with paternity. If both parties agree on the paternity, the legal system doesn't care and just goes with that. There is no need for assumption. What type of case would require an assumption of paternity, when both parties agree on paternity?

As for insult to the integrity of families, again if all parties agree testing isn't required and the legal system wouldn't care, so no need for assumption. Assumption is only needed in disputes regarding one party not being in agreement with the paternity.
 

luigimario

Banned
Except in Christianity the text it is founded on, The New Testament, says to reach out to sinners and love them as if they were Christ. And to not do that is to not do it to Christ. So what you see in America is a bunch of people who fit the classification of the Sadducees and would not be considered fundamental Christians according to the faith itself.

The juxtaposition with Islam is that the fundamental Islamist could advocate killing a gay person if they would not stop their sin according to sharia law.

Fundamentalist Christians in America tend to be blanket words used by the secular media to really paint a picture of stupid people who refute science and believe the world is 2000 years old, possibly flat, and vote to hide sin from the public all the while waiting to point out their hypocrisy when exposed.

Westernized Muslims in America tend to be held up as whataboutisms when people criticize the Islam societies for numerous reasons by the same media.

Erm, is that what the story of sodom and gammorah is about? Reaching out to sinners or destroying them with fire and rage?
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
This would be the only time the legal system would have any issue with paternity. If both parties agree on the paternity, the legal system doesn't care and just goes with that. There is no need for assumption. What type of case would require an assumption of paternity, when both parties agree on paternity?

As for insult to the integrity of families, again if all parties agree testing isn't required and the legal system wouldn't care, so no need for assumption. Assumption is only needed in disputes regarding one party not being in agreement with the paternity.

Fragmenting fundamental social arrangements into a series of separate contract declarations (discarding "I do," as a prior gesture that secures all future consequences of a union, in favor a series of "i do recognize this child," "I sign on this line to set my wife as next legal inheritor", and so on) is a very bad idea, and it falls entirely under the worst part of libertarian fantasies. The organic structure of marriage presently combines: social & cultural recognition and local involvement; preparation (pre-marriage classes are still extremely common in churches, even some secular contexts); paternity; full legal and financial interweaving of persons and property; inheritance; etc. To instead ask upon birth if the father agrees to be identified as father is not an advancement, it's a great regression towards atomized individualism, and demeans the full significance of human family by, again, turning cohesive social realities into just so many separate contracts and paperwork.
 
White Evangelicals might as well be a political party. Two of the mist Evil “religious” organizations on the planet as far as I’m concerned are White Evangelicals and Russian Orthodox Church. Both are designed to keep specific people in power an religion is secondary to that goal.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
Two of the mist Evil “religious” organizations on the planet as far as I’m concerned are White Evangelicals and Russian Orthodox Church. Both are designed to keep specific people in power an religion is secondary to that goal.

White evangelicals were the vanguard of the abolitionist movement.
 

Dunki

Member
White Evangelicals might as well be a political party. Two of the mist Evil “religious” organizations on the planet as far as I’m concerned are White Evangelicals and Russian Orthodox Church. Both are designed to keep specific people in power an religion is secondary to that goal.
What about Islam? It is not a political party if she is ruiling over a whole country because of religion? And while these maybe want to keep specific people in power Islamic states even kill everyone who stand against this religion. For example gay people, or arrests women who do not wear a hijab in public etc.

Christianity had their really dark ages back then no doubt about it. But Islam is doing this here and now. Islam never was and will be an oppressed religion they will always be the oppressors.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Muslims in America are 'actual' Muslims. Hope this helps.

Shaquille O'Neal doesn't strike me as the most common representation of the muslim world.

639.jpg
 
Shaquille O'Neal doesn't strike me as the most common representation of the muslim world.

639.jpg

Almost all of the Muslim friends I have don't believe that shit (I can think of one who belives that wife should obey), even ones fresh out from xyz country. Maybe they're just non-traditional, or westernized, but how useful is that graph really.
 
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Jon Neu

Banned
Almost all of the Muslim friends I have don't believe that shit (I can think of one who belives that wife should obey), even ones fresh out from xyz country. Maybe they're just non-traditional, or westernized, but how useful is that graph really.

It's more useful than any personal experience, that's for sure.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
I only see one muslim I know represented there, must be fake news.

"My minuscule and totally irrelevant personal experience says muslims are not homophobic and misogynistic, therefore any evidence pointing that they are must be fake news!"
 
"My minuscule and totally irrelevant personal experience says muslims are not homophobic and misogynistic, therefore any evidence pointing that they are must be fake news!"

I didn't say that. Your photo has a mission ('moderate'), and you need to get some real information to support your claim.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
I didn't say that. Your photo has a mission ('moderate'), and you need to get some real information to support your claim.

"Real information" like your personal experience.

You just have to take a look at muslim countries to see what muslim societies are.
 
"Real information" like your personal experience.

You just have to take a look at muslim countries to see what muslim societies are.

Did you drop an agreeable Google Image, or did you actually pull something based off what you read from a study, article, paper?
 
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Jon Neu

Banned
Did you drop an agreeable Google Image, or did you actually pull something based off what you read from a study, article, paper?

So I have to conduct a study of why the muslim countries are abominations in which women, gays and minorities are treated like they aren't human beings?

You want me to give you links about the sharia trials, about the women raped and stoned to death for the crime of allowing themselves to be raped? Do you want me to give you links about the marriages of 9 year old girls with adult muslims, celebrating what the prophet Muhammad did? Do you want me to give you videos of homosexuals being thrown of buildings? Do you want the list of people killed for apostasy? What about the atheists? What about the young girls having acid throw at their face? What about the judicial system in which the word of a woman have half the importance of the word of a man?

If you are a complete ignorant of the muslim world, it's not my job to provide you with links and educate you.
 
What about Islam? It is not a political party if she is ruiling over a whole country because of religion? And while these maybe want to keep specific people in power Islamic states even kill everyone who stand against this religion. For example gay people, or arrests women who do not wear a hijab in public etc.

Christianity had their really dark ages back then no doubt about it. But Islam is doing this here and now. Islam never was and will be an oppressed religion they will always be the oppressors.
Well obviously I disagree with you. Sure there are shitty aspects of Islam. But this is not even what we are talking about here. I'm specifically talking about those two institutions (White Evangelicals and Russian Orthodox Church) not about a whole religion. As far as I'm concerned these are propaganda machines for political parties with no Christian values whatsoever.
 

luigimario

Banned
Shaquille O'Neal doesn't strike me as the most common representation of the muslim world.

639.jpg

Lol Pew polled 584 million muslims who said they wanted death for leaving islam? C'mon man, be serious. Try to get out of breitbart once in a while.
 

Dunki

Member
Lol Pew polled 584 million muslims who said they wanted death for leaving islam? C'mon man, be serious. Try to get out of breitbart once in a while.
This is how surveys work. You always use only a small number compared to the real one. Also to try to argue that the PEW institute is on the Level of breitbart is pretty pathtic in its own. FAct is moderate muslims like in the US are not the norm but sadly still very rare. We in Germany or better Berlin have one liberal mosque in Germany which needs 24/7 police support because they have a female Imam women are not sitting in the back etc.

The Zentralrat der Juden is suggesting not wearing Kippa's in public because it could endanger their lifes etc. And no not because of evil Nazis
 
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luigimario

Banned
This is how surveys work. You always use only a small number compared to the real one. Also to try to argue that the PEW institute is on the Level of breitbart is pretty pathtic in its own.
Yes but to apply it the way he has is breitbart like. It's like a recent poll that showed one third of white british who were polled admitted they had racial prejudice. Now does this mean that 1in3 white british people are racist? Or should we really analyse how the survey was done? Who was asked? What were the questions asked? Was there any room for interpretation? etc etc. You would be stupid to apply it and say 1in3 white british people are racist.
 

Dunki

Member
Yes but to apply it the way he has is breitbart like. It's like a recent poll that showed one third of white british who were polled admitted they had racial prejudice. Now does this mean that 1in3 white british people are racist? Or should we really analyse how the survey was done? Who was asked? What were the questions asked? Was there any room for interpretation? etc etc. You would be stupid to apply it and say 1in3 white british people are racist.

They have sample sizes around the world. And this amount is enough to be called representative. Again PEW is not some institute lying about it.

gsi2-exec-map.png


gsi2-overview-20.png


There are tons of statistics in this particular survey

gsi2-chp1-9.png
gsi2-chp3-6.png
gsi2-chp3-11.png


Just three examples. And here is the full 16 pages long study in which they explain everything you probably want to know about how they did the survey what they found out etc.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
 

luigimario

Banned
They have sample sizes around the world. And this amount is enough to be called representative. Again PEW is not some institute lying about it.

gsi2-exec-map.png


gsi2-overview-20.png


There are tons of statistics in this particular survey

gsi2-chp1-9.png
gsi2-chp3-6.png
gsi2-chp3-11.png


Just three examples. And here is the full 16 pages long study in which they explain everything you probably want to know about how they did the survey what they found out etc.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Just look at the difference between muslims majority countries in europe compared to war torn and poor middle east and asia, especially in the question about death for apostasy. Plus who was asked? Rural areas? Cities? Educated people (who make up a tiny minority in alot of these countries) or people who are uneducated? Poor? Wealthy? Wahabi? Sunni? Shia? Etc etc. You do see what I mean right? And I can gurantee, similar polls done in poor rural areas of south america, africa and asia of chrisitans wouldn't be that much different, as much as you like to paint muslims as this unique boogeyman.
 

Dunki

Member
Just look at the difference between muslims majority countries in europe compared to war torn and poor middle east and asia, especially in the question about death for apostasy. Plus who was asked? Rural areas? Cities? Educated people (who make up a tiny minority in alot of these countries) or people who are uneducated? Poor? Wealthy? Wahabi? Sunni? Shia? Etc etc. You do see what I mean right? And I can gurantee, similar polls done in poor rural areas of south america, africa and asia of chrisitans wouldn't be that much different, as much as you like to paint muslims as this unique boogeyman.
If you read the whole thing you know exactly who were asked why they did ask the people etc. This is not a study to get the results they wanted. Also we have more and more studies in Germany that the youth these days is getting more and more radicalized.

Also these are the people we actually get thoguh asylums and they do not change their views just because they are here. For example we had to separate christian and muslim refugee because chrsitians would be threaten all the time. Women are more likely separated from their men because of a much lower rape and violence possibility etc. Another study also showed how the 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims in the Uk are more likely to want the UK under Sharia Law then their parents. (It was I think 40% of young british muslims) We have a huge problem and to ignore it is and will not help.

Again In Germany Jews are already scared to wear their kippa's in public beause of the radicalisation here.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
And I can gurantee, similar polls done in poor rural areas of south america, africa and asia of chrisitans wouldn't be that much different, as much as you like to paint muslims as this unique boogeyman.

You can't refute evidence with imaginary polling results.
 
They have sample sizes around the world. And this amount is enough to be called representative. Again PEW is not some institute lying about it.

gsi2-exec-map.png


gsi2-overview-20.png


There are tons of statistics in this particular survey

gsi2-chp1-9.png
gsi2-chp3-6.png
gsi2-chp3-11.png


Just three examples. And here is the full 16 pages long study in which they explain everything you probably want to know about how they did the survey what they found out etc.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Yeah, this is what i wanted.
 

luigimario

Banned
[QUOTE
You can't refute evidence with imaginary polling results.

Well this thread proves my point. We got polling of muslims and chrisitans in america, brought up in similar ways, with similar wealth, education etc and the results are pretty similar too, actually it shows muslims to be MORE tolerant than their christian counterparts. So if we equalise as much as we can for all factors, the results will be pretty much the same. Its why in poor rural countries, ie those in africa, those in south america, in India, Asia etc, you still get stories of chrisitans killing children because they thought them to be witches etc.

So I guess, using yours and dunki's logic, because the one poll done by the "British social attitudes survey", we can now make the conclusion that atleast 1/3 of white britons are racist? Cool.... (This is a real poll by the way, reported on by both the BBC AND the dailymail so.....)
 
Yeah, evangelical Christians. No shit. Evangelical any religion is opposed to gay marriage. Ask most Middle Eastern Muslims how they feel about gay marriage, and you'll see what I mean.

Nice bait, OP.
 

luigimario

Banned
Yeah, evangelical Christians. No shit. Evangelical any religion is opposed to gay marriage. Ask most Middle Eastern Muslims how they feel about gay marriage, and you'll see what I mean.

Nice bait, OP.

Ask the middle eastern christians that and you will get the same response....
 
Ask the middle eastern christians that and you will get the same response....
I agree completely. Most religious people I've met are cool. It's the fundamentalists that are fucked up. I just feel like OP was trying to do a whole "see, Muslims are better than Christians" routine.
 

ZombieInsider97

Neo Member
Don't bait other members of this forum regardless of your beliefs.
Wow Americans get offended over anything and so easily, I'm opposed to gay marriage, are you butthurt yet? I doubt that there any actual men or women in America any longer, you're all so sensitive that I'm pretty sure that you can get crushed so easily nowadays. And I think that only mentally ill/weak people change their gender. Are the words faggot and shemale still offensive? Because in my mind they're not, I call things the way they are. You know here in my country no one gets offended, but yeah I'm pretty sure that we are vastly superior to you. Because we don't even need to have shitty arguments that split our people. Is anyone butthurt? Come at me.
 
Wow Americans get offended over anything and so easily, I'm opposed to gay marriage, are you butthurt yet? I doubt that there any actual men or women in America any longer, you're all so sensitive that I'm pretty sure that you can get crushed so easily nowadays. And I think that only mentally ill/weak people change their gender. Are the words faggot and shemale still offensive? Because in my mind they're not, I call things the way they are. You know here in my country no one gets offended, but yeah I'm pretty sure that we are vastly superior to you. Because we don't even need to have shitty arguments that split our people. Is anyone butthurt? Come at me.

Lol 10/10 post.

For the record, the word faggot doesn't offend me. Neither does nigger or cunt. I don't get offended by anything.
 

JDB

Banned
I agree completely. Most religious people I've met are cool. It's the fundamentalists that are fucked up. I just feel like OP was trying to do a whole "see, Muslims are better than Christians" routine.
Is that a routine? It's clear that the western world and Muslims have a lot of opposing views and values, but I think this news points this changing for US Muslims specifically which I think is a positive thing.
 

ZombieInsider97

Neo Member
Is that a routine? It's clear that the western world and Muslims have a lot of opposing views and values, but I think this news points this changing for US Muslims specifically which I think is a positive thing.
It's not. Because that's also a kind of dictatorship, changing Religion from being authentic just to meet up with the political climate. That's what the American shitty media does, brainwashing people, for money and politics, the best examples are fox and cnn.
 

JDB

Banned
It's not. Because that's also a kind of dictatorship, changing Religion from being authentic just to meet up with the political climate. That's what the American shitty media does, brainwashing people, for money and politics, the best examples are fox and cnn.
I honestly don't know what you're on about.
 

Dunki

Member
In all honesty I think Europe can learn a lot about America's integration of Muslim people since they seem to have succeeded where Europe has not. Yes it is also a total different population that comes to Europe each year but still there must be something that America did Europe did not.

If Muslims in Europe would be as integrated as they are in the US there would be no real or big problems.
 
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