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Marriage Equality Heads to SCOTUS - Obergefell v. Hodges |OT| The Last Days of Murica

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HylianTom

Banned
There's an article on the soon-to-be celebrity who made a surprise cameo at minute 27..

Supreme Court protester charged

Supreme Court police arrested a courtroom protester after he shouted out that supporters of same-sex marriage can "burn in hell" midway through Tuesday's oral arguments.

A spokeswoman for the court identified the man as Rives Miller Grogan. Police charged him under a law that prohibits making a "harangue or oration" inside the Supreme Court and with impeding the administration of justice. ...

Grogan has a history of being kicked out of things. He had been blocked from the U.S. Capitol for shouting anti-abortion rhetoric, was arrested after he ran onto the field of a Cincinnati Reds game, and again when he climbed a tree and tried to shout down President Obama during his 2013 inauguration.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...sex-marriage-protester-rives-grogan/26532887/

635658383640149012-GTY-158782756.jpg

He'd be ripe for a photoshop contest!
 

ivysaur12

Banned
A very smart take on why, when Kennedy questions you on dignity, you should be nervous:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/supreme_court_dispatches/2015/04/gay_marriage_arguments_at_supreme_court_anthony_kennedy_on_dignity.html

As for Justice Anthony Kennedy, if we know anything at all about him it is this: You don’t tell him what dignity is, or who has it, or how much it counts. As most Kennedy-watchers well know, to the extent that Kennedy’s vote is in play on most issues, what he is contemplating is dignity. Often balanced against other dignity. He’s the dignity-whisperer.

So there is a rather extraordinary moment Tuesday morning, as the Supreme Court hears historic arguments in the marriage equality cases grouped under Obergefell v. Hodges, when Kennedy finds himself in an argument with John Bursch, Michigan’s special assistant attorney general, about whether marriage is a dignity-conferring enterprise, or not. Bursch, defending his state’s ban on same-sex marriage, is explaining that the purpose of marriage is not to confer dignity but to keep parents bonded to their biological children.

Justice Kennedy—who opened argument Tuesday morning with the observation that this whole case is about an institution whose definition has gone unchanged for millennia—looks rather shocked. The author of the majority decision outlawing sodomy bans in Lawrence v. Texas (“Adults may choose to enter upon this relationship in the confines of their homes and their own private lives and still retain their dignity as free persons”) and the decision striking down the Defense of Marriage Act in United States v. Windsor (“It seems fair to conclude that, until recent years, many citizens had not even considered the possibility that two persons of the same sex might aspire to occupy the same status and dignity as that of a man and woman in lawful marriage”) did not want to hear this. Indeed, it seems like Kennedy wanted it to be perfectly clear that he is the guy who gets to say that if marriage is nothing else, it is a dignity-stamper.

Bursch explains that if marriage is expanded to include same-sex couples, the whole purpose of the institution will change. According to him, that view of marriage is “keeping the couple bound to that child forever,” whereas the new purpose (once gay couples are allowed to wed) will be about “their emotional commitment to each other.” This presumably less noble view of marriage will then proliferate, and result in illegitimacy, which the state seeks to avoid. Kennedy looks stunned. “That assumes that same-sex couples could not have a more noble purpose, and that’s the whole point. Same-sex couples say, of course we understand the nobility and the sacredness of marriage,” says Kennedy, the presumed swing vote. “We know we can’t procreate, but we want the other attributes of it in order to show that we, too, have a dignity that can be fulfilled.”

It’s an amazing argument Tuesday morning (and a lengthy one), ranging over all of human history and geography, religious conscience, Plato, and eventually coming to rest—as we all suspected it might—at Justice Anthony Kennedy. It’s not clear from anything that happened Tuesday morning that he will halt his march toward dignity for same-sex couples.

At the very end of the morning, Douglas Hallward-Driemeier, arguing the second question briefed in the case—about whether states can be forced to recognize same-sex marriages from other states—puts a face on his clients. He talks about what it means not to be allowed to visit your daughter in the hospital, or being moved with your family to an army base in a state that dissolves your marriage regardless of where it was solemnized. Usually, these kinds of deeply personal and emotional arguments ring a bit sentimental at the rarefied planet that is the high court. But, today, they’re powerful precisely because when we truly talk about dignity, it’s theirs that’s on the line.

Of the many murky aspects of Kennedy's jurisprudence, dignity is something that shines through.
 
Jeffrey Toobin wrote this for the New Yorker on Scalia's Shameful Joke but I took his quip as a way to disharm the tension in the courthouse in the moment of a protestor who added a "refreshing" emoitional outburst to the usual stale and subdued arguments. Yeah, Scalia is a jackass and is the second worst member of the court (right before Thomas, who might be the worst justice the court has ever seen), but listening to the arguments, I didn't take Scalia's joke as any sort of malice.

Anyway, after listening finally to all of the aruments (including the painful second half by Mr. "No State should recognize any other State's marriages! Wait, I misunderstood the question! let me drink water for a while to regroup my thoughts!" I feel that Roberts and Kennedy raised some good questions but seem to be leaning toward allowing gay marriage, Alito remains the best conservative force on the court, Scalia is a joke, Thomas is too pathetic to be a joke, Breyer continues his condescending tone in questioning (which you love or hate, and I alternate between loving and hating), Kagan is great, Ginsburg is fine and old, and Sotomayer is the worst on the left always appeaing to emotion and rarely intellect; she's been a disappointment so far to me that if I had to rank the court. I'd put her behind Alito and ahead of Scalia and Thomas.

Final guess is 6 v 3.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Oh, I completely disagree. Alito's rant about Greece -- coupled with the same sort of nonsense in Hollingsworth/Windsor -- really make me doubt the familiarity with this subject. Or at least, I think Alito believes he's much more of an expert than he actually is on the institution of marriage. See: whatever that thing about Plato was today.

Scalia, despite his question of pastors having to marry gay couples, brings up the only real argument against gay marriage that one could think of at this point: Why us? And to couple that, why now? I actually think that Scalia's own legal thesis would generally lead him towards a ruling for marriage equality, but his own biases keep him from doing so. If there was a 20 year old Scalia on the court, I don't think he'd view the issue the same way. At all.

But he's much more of an intellectual heavy weight than Alito will ever be.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Every time Kennedy brings-up "dignity," I can't help but wonder if he's ever thought of DignityUSA, the gay Catholic organization. It's almost too perfect.

And Scalia's quip didn't really strike me as ill-willed. More a remark on the shift in tone in the courtroom? It was a plodding argument at times - I have no doubt the justices and the audience have lived & breathed these arguments for years - so a bit of lively punctuation was amusing.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I wonder if horse race political journalism has spilled over into reporting on oral arguments these days. Why do we have to frame things like "too close to call"? Is that really the right lens here?
 

HylianTom

Banned
I wonder if horse race political journalism has spilled over into reporting on oral arguments these days. Why do we have to frame things like "too close to call"? Is that really the right lens here?

This kind of case was always going to get a flood of coverage from all sorts of different angles (although you could barely tell that it happened, judging by the coverage on cable news).

But you're right.. I think the close-competition angle is shoehorned into anything within the political realm at this point. If Event A happens, we almost immediately get related coverage asking, "who benefits?" or "who's winning?" or "How does this affect the upcoming race(s)?"
 
I was gonna be that guy and post this when I started listening, so thanks for doing it for me Ivy. Lol.

I mean his voice was practically Derrick level...

gay-enough-for-you.gif


Drama

Haha. I was listening to the oral arguments when my mother-in-law got to our house yesterday, and after a few minutes of listening, she says "Why is that gay guy arguing against gay marriage?"
 

HylianTom

Banned
Okay.. Barney Frank was on Seth Myers last night and got me with one remark:
Barney Frank on the Supreme Court's gay-marriage ruling: 'I cannot wait to see Justice Scalia's reaction'

Former Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) is pretty bullish on the Supreme Court recognizing a national right to same-sex marriage, he told Seth Meyers on Tuesday's Late Night, though he said he hadn't read much about the oral arguments that took place earlier in the day. He's excited, Frank added, because he has a husband, and because "I cannot wait to see Justice Scalia's reaction. I'm speculating that like Rumpelstiltskin he will stamp his foot and go up in a puff of smoke." Meyers laughed, "That would be something to see."

Frank said he was surprised by the rapid change in attitudes toward gay rights, and he attributed the shift to gay people coming out to their friends and families and the collapse of arguments about how gay rights harm anyone: "Reality beats prejudice." When he started out in politics in the 1970s, he thought he could never win elections, "because I'm gay, and everybody hates gay people, and you gotta be popular to be in politics," Frank said. "By the time I retired, being gay was much more popular than being a congressman." —Peter Weber
http://theweek.com/speedreads/55226...e-ruling-cannot-wait-justice-scalias-reaction
(video at link)

---

On a semi-separate note: I'm really going to miss the comedy that came with this issue. So much ripe, brilliant material.

On the bright side, The Colbert Report has all(?) of his material archived on this website: http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/search?keywords=
And the Daily Show similarly has an archive here: http://thedailyshow.cc.com/search?searchKeywords=

These archives appear to go back all the way to the beginning, including when Craig Kilborn was there.
 
I don't mean to sound ignorant on this case. I've tried to find information on this case online but there's a ton of fluff pieces going around that make such a task difficult.

If the Supreme Court rules in favor of gay marriage, does that override all state and local laws that currently disallow it? Would a state be able to ignore the ruling? If not, what exactly is the ruling supposed to allow?
 
I don't mean to sound ignorant on this case. I've tried to find information on this case online but there's a ton of fluff pieces going around that make such a task difficult.

If the Supreme Court rules in favor of gay marriage, does that override all state and local laws that currently disallow it? Would a state be able to ignore the ruling? If not, what exactly is the ruling supposed to allow?

The Supreme Court supersedes any state or local law.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Congratulations to you guys!

I fear we (Italy) will have the dishonor of being the last of the ""civilized"" world to do this.

Our judiciary recently noted something that, in the head justice of the supreme court's "While there is no basis for the creation of such an institution (or extending the current one) in constitutional law, it will be the job of the Legislative branch to make it so."

Damn the Catholic Church, really.
 

Andrew J.

Member
I don't mean to sound ignorant on this case. I've tried to find information on this case online but there's a ton of fluff pieces going around that make such a task difficult.

If the Supreme Court rules in favor of gay marriage, does that override all state and local laws that currently disallow it? Would a state be able to ignore the ruling? If not, what exactly is the ruling supposed to allow?

The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of federal and constitutional law. It's precedents are binding upon all U.S. Courts, state or federal. Individual state agencies might immediately begin issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples, or they might stonewall until an injunction from a court with local jurisdiction comes in. Given that there are pending cases in every state that doesn't have marriage equality yet, it probably won't take too long.

(In my estimation, the "last state" will be whichever stonewaller has a federal judge with the slowest summary judgment schedule.)
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Congratulations to you guys!

I fear we (Italy) will have the dishonor of being the last of the ""civilized"" world to do this.

Our judiciary recently noted something that, in the head justice of the supreme court's "While there is no basis for the creation of such an institution (or extending the current one) in constitutional law, it will be the job of the Legislative branch to make it so."

Damn the Catholic Church, really.

We haven't gotten there yet! And in terms of Western countries? Yeah, probably you guys and Northern Ireland.
 

Loxley

Member
The Onion is on point as usual: "Nation On Edge As Court Votes Whether To Legalize Gay Marriage Now Or In A Few Years"

WASHINGTON—Anxiously anticipating the Supreme Court’s decision on the issue, the nation was reportedly on edge Wednesday as it waited to see whether the court would legalize gay marriage now or in a few years. “Americans are standing by with bated breath while the justices decide whether to recognize same-sex couples immediately or in two or three years when public opinion has shifted even more overwhelmingly in favor of gay marriage,” said legal analyst Jermaine Masse, adding that whether the court would legalize gay marriage at once or merely very soon was still too close to call at this time.

“At this very moment, nine individuals are deciding whether to fundamentally alter this country’s definition of marriage right away or by the end of 2018, latest. What’s at stake is nothing less than a 24- to 36-month delay on same-sex marriage being the law of the land.” Masse went on to say that the fact that the nation’s highest court agreed to hear the case in the first place signaled that it was prepared to reject the more conservative notion that gay marriage could wait until the end of the decade.
 

Ravidrath

Member
The whole argument that marriage will be less attractive if gays get it is just stupid.

I mean, have they seen popular culture? Gays are the tastemakers - everything gays like gets popular.

So once all the gays start marrying, getting married will be the hot new trend in America.
 

jackal27

Banned
Still can't understand why so many Christians (am one) and conservatives stand so hard against this. Just because the government recognizes same-sex marriage doesn't mean you have to agree with it or come out in support. Chill. Gay people do and should have equal rights. That's what makes the Murica you love Murica.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Cruz makes my stomach turn.

So on the off chance that this doesn't go in favor of marriage equality, what are the chances of it ever being overturned?

The equal protection clause would have to be rewritten or expanded since it would not include gays in its current form. If it ends up that way.
 

The Llama

Member
Still can't understand why so many Christians (am one) and conservatives stand so hard against this. Just because the government recognizes same-sex marriage doesn't mean you have to agree with it or come out in support. Chill. Gay people do and should have equal rights. That's what makes the Murica you love Murica.

Because the thought of two guys kissing and having sex scares them.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Semi-related?

Judge Heyburn, Ky gay marriage judge, dies
U.S. Senior District Judge John G. Heyburn II, a Republican who carved an independent and progressive path in three decades on the federal bench, upholding school desegregation and striking down laws that forbade gay marriage, died Wednesday, according to U.S. District Court clerk Vanessa Armstrong. ..

In two of his last major opinions, he struck down Kentucky's constitutional amendment that barred same-sex marriage within Kentucky and the recognition of same-sex marriages performed legally in other states, saying they violated the right to equal protection under the law by treating gays and lesbians "differently in a way that demeans them."

While acknowledging that gay marriage clashes with the religious and moral values of many Kentuckians, Heyburn wrote in 2014 that the "beauty of our Constitution is that it accommodates our individual faith definitions of marriage while preventing the government from unlawfully treating us differently."

His decisions were reversed by a federal appeals court but may be upheld by the Supreme Court, which heard arguments Tuesday in same-sex marriage cases from Kentucky and three other states later.

Defending his decision later in a public debate with anti-gay marriage activist Martin Cothran, Heyburn said that judges sometimes must rule against what was once accepted tradition.

"History is littered with traditions that we have later decided weren't very good ones," he said. "Without judges, who knows how long would it have taken for the state of Connecticut to decide it couldn't deny contraceptives to women? How long would South Carolina have waited before it did away with segregated schools?"
http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...dge-kentucky-gay-marriage-case-dies/26604011/

A bit sad that he won't be around to see his ruling vindicated. His opinion cut right to the heart of what the judges were wavering on.
 

Jintor

Member
We haven't gotten there yet! And in terms of Western countries? Yeah, probably you guys and Northern Ireland.

Dunno, Australia's political system is so fukt right now I don't think gay marriage is really on the table as a realistic proposition for at least another half decade. Events might surprise me though
 
Dunno, Australia's political system is so fukt right now I don't think gay marriage is really on the table as a realistic proposition for at least another half decade. Events might surprise me though

Yeah honestly 5 years ago national gay marriage in the U.S. Was a pipe dream for that wouldn't happen for decades
 

Jintor

Member
Yeah honestly 5 years ago national gay marriage in the U.S. Was a pipe dream for that wouldn't happen for decades

Mmmm I feel like America's fierce brand of federalism helped though, but that's just gut opinion, not anything i've researched. Australia doesn't really have a comparably firey legislature.

We don't have any Scalias though so *shrug*
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Dunno, Australia's political system is so fukt right now I don't think gay marriage is really on the table as a realistic proposition for at least another half decade. Events might surprise me though

Compared to Italy and Northern Ireland? Probably not, unless Northern Ireland gets a court ruling, though I'm not familiar with the specifics of Northern Irish law.
 

Wilsongt

Member
I never understand the "won't someone think of the children?!" when there is a growing number of single mothers and fathers, as well as single grandparents raising children in this day and age.

Also, not all marriages are created equal and not all are good for children.

Just goes to show that the argument against gay marriage falls into the category of "Well, we just don't like it so there. Hmph" and less on the side of logic.

Also, that lawyer who is arguing against gay marriage... >_> Um... Yeah...
 

Maledict

Member
Compared to Italy and Northern Ireland? Probably not, unless Northern Ireland gets a court ruling, though I'm not familiar with the specifics of Northern Irish law.

I'm not convinced over Italy, but I feel Northern Ireland will be dragged there sooner rather than later with the rest of the UK and EIRE (hopefully) having gay marriage by the end of May. Australia on on the other hand seems completely screwed in this regard - I think they'd be lucky to see it in the next 5 years.
 
Still can't understand why so many Christians (am one) and conservatives stand so hard against this. Just because the government recognizes same-sex marriage doesn't mean you have to agree with it or come out in support. Chill. Gay people do and should have equal rights. That's what makes the Murica you love Murica.

Because they view it as the government telling them their beliefs are wrong. Fundamentalists absolutely, positively, hate when people tell them they are wrong.
 

Jintor

Member
I'm not convinced over Italy, but I feel Northern Ireland will be dragged there sooner rather than later with the rest of the UK and EIRE (hopefully) having gay marriage by the end of May. Australia on on the other hand seems completely screwed in this regard - I think they'd be lucky to see it in the next 5 years.

I don't necessarily think it's a question of popular opinion in Australia; it's just a sheer matter of the way our political process works at the moment. The Libs are conservative by nature and far too worried about staying afloat with their base; Labor won't allow a conscience vote on the issue and is in any case embroiled by trying to determine if they want to bleed votes to the Libs or to the Greens. The Greens are obviously pro and who knows about the microparties but they're not going to shift the issue until Labor moves on the issue, really.

It's also probably not going to the HC anytime soon.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Still can't understand why so many Christians (am one) and conservatives stand so hard against this. Just because the government recognizes same-sex marriage doesn't mean you have to agree with it or come out in support. Chill. Gay people do and should have equal rights. That's what makes the Murica you love Murica.

Because then it means their bible is wrong.
 

bomma_man

Member
I don't necessarily think it's a question of popular opinion in Australia; it's just a sheer matter of the way our political process works at the moment. The Libs are conservative by nature and far too worried about staying afloat with their base; Labor won't allow a conscience vote on the issue and is in any case embroiled by trying to determine if they want to bleed votes to the Libs or to the Greens. The Greens are obviously pro and who knows about the microparties but they're not going to shift the issue until Labor moves on the issue, really.

It's also probably not going to the HC anytime soon.

Well compared to America (or Canada) we have the disadvantage (in this context) of not having:
1. Any equivelant of the 14th amendment, or
2. More autonomous states.
If we had either of those I think we'd have had gay marriage a long time ago. And conversely, there's no way America would have it if they had our system.
 

Maledict

Member
I don't necessarily think it's a question of popular opinion in Australia; it's just a sheer matter of the way our political process works at the moment. The Libs are conservative by nature and far too worried about staying afloat with their base; Labor won't allow a conscience vote on the issue and is in any case embroiled by trying to determine if they want to bleed votes to the Libs or to the Greens. The Greens are obviously pro and who knows about the microparties but they're not going to shift the issue until Labor moves on the issue, really.

It's also probably not going to the HC anytime soon.

Sorry I should have been clearer - I absolutely agree with what you have written. It's the Australian political process and system that's causing the delay over there, not popular opinion. You guys are, politically, where we were 10 years ago in the UK on this issue, for pretty much exactly the same reason. Our Labour Party was in favour of gay rights, but didn't want to ostracise middle England voters so compromised on civil unions. Which, to be fair to them, was the best they could get at the time in reality and paved the way for our right wing party to push gay marriage in the UK in 2013.
 

bomma_man

Member
Sorry I should have been clearer - I absolutely agree with what you have written. It's the Australian political process and system that's causing the delay over there, not popular opinion. You guys are, politically, where we were 10 years ago in the UK on this issue, for pretty much exactly the same reason. Our Labour Party was in favour of gay rights, but didn't want to ostracise middle England voters so compromised on civil unions. Which, to be fair to them, was the best they could get at the time in reality and paved the way for our right wing party to push gay marriage in the UK in 2013.

That's the other thing - there are more liberals in your Conservative party than our Liberal party!
 
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