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[jim-jam bongs]

I'm assuming that is some sort of speed toggle? So you're saying that pushing W +D with your index + middle finger while simultaneously holding shift with your pinky is preferable to pushing an analog stick 2 cm with your thumb? That's a fine example of the point I've been trying to make this whole time.

CAPSLOCK is usually a toggle, but sure.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Mass Effect 3 is not a racing, fighting or sports game, therefore it does not need gamepad support on PC.

What does need have to do with it?

 

[Bisnic]

so I asked Manveer Heir (from Bioware) about this on Twitter, here's what he said (bottom->up):

That game...with that kind of budget... dunno, seems weird. :/

While you're at it, just ask him if the demo is from an old build or not. If it is, maybe it will calm down some of the hate outside of gamepad support.

 

[Princess Carl]

I don't know whats more maddening, this crock of shit lack of controller support, or all of you fucking morons who don't understand why this is an issue in the first place.

and Dev realities, give me a fucking break you sad excuse for a man and developer.

 

[Prisen]

Mass Effect 3 is not a racing, fighting or sports game, therefore it does not need gamepad support on PC.

I'm sure PC GAF would be thrilled if a racing, fighting or sports game was released without kb/m support.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

It is true that mapping programs don't equal native support. But it's better then asking the developers to force something into the game when they haven't been able to do so for whatever reasons for the last 2 games in the series, especially if that means the developers have to push something out of the game to force something in.

- and the above twitter reply posted seems like a good enough response from Bioware to me. I dont think they would need to lie about the being stretched thin, we all know EA can be a slave-driving Publisher.

-And being angry about something we think is an issue is the rights we have as humans but anger can be based in stupidity and the inability to see the realities of game development as they are, shitty.

Too stretched thin to copy and paste some images of buttons? I could do it right now and I could even do it in the background while typing this, it's a few mouse clicks. They already have the images for the 360 version. I don't understand.

Maybe I am just wrong because I haven't used a dev studio in 10 years (VS 6) but has it become hard to transfer resources between projects?

The hud can also be copy/pasted and only used if a controller is in use. This isn't a "we're stretched thin" issue because they don't do this for any of their games.

 

[Zeliard]

I'm assuming that is some sort of speed toggle? So you're saying that pushing W +D with your index + middle finger while simultaneously holding shift with your pinky is preferable to pushing a thumb stick 2 cm with your thumb?

Provided you're not just trolling at this point, there are toggles, i.e. binds that don't require you to hold on to the button. Caps lock (by default) does that in Skyrim to control movement speed. You don't have to hold on to a button unless you want to, which some do since it gives them more immediate control.

 

[Q8D3vil]

Don't think that's too reasonable. People would be rightfully annoyed if, say, Assassin's Creed didn't have pad support.

Mass Effect series has to be one of the few console-focused series out there without pad support on the PC version. Can't think of any others off the top of my head, though I'm much more inclined to use kb/m outside of certain types of games, so I don't always look for pad support.

usually games are ported entirely to pc without any modification. in bioware case they always create a unique interface that fit pc gaming.

i understand why people are angry but for people who play with k/m they rather have good good pc interface than gamepad support.

 

[IoCaster]

A) It's limited to digital as opposed to analog range of motion. B) It's limited to 8-way as opposed to 16-way, 32-way, and everything in between. C) For most people, it's less user friendly, more unnatural, and less ergonomically friendly than simple a simple thumb stick. D) Yes someone who had played Quake to death with a thumb pad would be able to do that. E) Modern games are designed around analog movement, with stealth segments, cover crawling/sneaking, etc... F) Why am I having to explain the advantages of an analog stick for movement in a 3D space in the year 2012?

I'd like to see someone do that actually. Quake Done Quick using a gamepad or even a pad/mouse combo would be pretty entertaining. Can you provide a link to a vid or something?

 

[Lothars]

I don't know whats more maddening, this crock of shit lack of controller support, or all of you fucking morons who don't understand why this is an issue in the first place.

and Dev realities, give me a fucking break you sad excuse for a man and developer.

I think it's more of the fact that nobody should have been surprised that it didn't have controller support built in, It wouldn't have hurt anything if they would have but they don't and they didn't for both ME1 or 2. At least there is Xpadder support so if you want to use a controller than you can but you don't have to resort to insulting everyone.

Edit: took out the insult.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

usually games are ported entirely to pc without any modification. in bioware case they always create a unique interface that fit pc gaming.

i understand why people are angry but for people who play with k/m they rather have good good pc interface than gamepad support.

Volition
Eidos Montreal
Irrational Games
Rockstar
Vigil
Spicy Horse
Obsidian
Doublefine
Visceral
Crystal Dynamics

Know what that is? That's an off-the-top-of-my-head list of studios which manage to ship PC games with a good UI for both input methods.

 

[Macmanus]

BINGO.

If the series didn't support it in the past, complaining about it now like it's some sort of 'surprise' is childish.

Besides, IMO: who the hell plays the PC Mass Effect series with a controller? I played the 360 version once and I fucking hated the cheap, circular console-esque "pause-menu" HUD style. (and I am a 360 owner fyi)

Jade Empire had it, so shut the hell up with this argument. That game was from over half a decade ago.

This is just lazy development.

man your an idiot

::snort::

 

[Psi]

so I asked Manveer Heir (from Bioware) about this on Twitter, here's what he said (bottom->up):

http://i.imgur.com/bB7qq.png

That game...with that kind of budget... dunno, seems weird. :/

Still sounds like a bullshit answer to me. Based on the PC version of ME2, it looked more like they went out of their way to remove 360 controller support. Like they couldn't be bothered to leave the ui graphic in for it or make it control properly in the menu.

But one tweak to an ini and it almost fully worked.

 

[Zeliard]

usually games are ported entirely to pc without any modification. in bioware case they always create a unique interface that fit pc gaming.

i understand why people are angry but for people who play with k/m they rather have good good pc interface than gamepad support.

Those aren't mutually exclusive; it's been done many times. I'm a heavy kb/m user and have been for a long time, and I have no plans on ever playing a Mass Effect game with a controller, but it's still a silly omission for what is basically a console series. It doesn't affect me at all but I can understand why others would be annoyed by it.

As I was saying earlier, this isn't a case like DA:O where the PC version is fundamentally different from the console versions. Mass Effect is always basically the same across all three platforms, if of course much better-looking on PC, at least when there are no texture issues (and to me, it controls far better as well on PC).

 

[JonathanPower]

Yeah I heard there's no Steering Wheel support too now that's much worse in my opinion.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yeah I heard there's no Steering Wheel support too now that's much worse in my opinion.

Pro-tip for GAF-ing: if a thread reaches page 5, every single joke worth making has already been made.

 

[Reallink]

Provided you're not just trolling at this point, there are toggles, i.e. binds that don't require you to hold on to the button. Caps lock (by default) does that in Skyrim to control movement speed. You don't have to hold on to a button unless you want to, which some do since it gives them more immediate control.

No, I'm honestly trying to understand the logic behind preferring KB movement for a game like Skyrim or ME--beyond just being used to it. Quake style I can maybe see (though that's an incredibly rare, borderline non-existent genre these days), and even then it's debatable--doubly so if you're arguing for a universal dongle, which would also have a d-pad for situations where you might need fast all or nothing response.

 

[Haunted]

usually games are ported entirely to pc without any modification. in bioware case they always create a unique interface that fit pc gaming.

i understand why people are angry but for people who play with k/m they rather have good good pc interface than gamepad support.

Why the hell must it be one or the other? Lots of other games, ranging from low to medium to high profile - many of them from EA themselves - manage to offer both. ME3 is one of their biggest and most expensive titles, yet it doesn't?

Bioware getting flak for that fact is deserved.

True supremacy comes from flexibility and freedom of choice.

.

 

[Dark Octave]

Is there that big of a market for people who use gamepads for PC or is it more of a niche thing?

 

[JonathanPower]

Pro-tip for GAF-ing: if a thread reaches page 5, every single joke worth making has already been made.

This is no joke, I'd love to drive around Commander Shepard with a Steering Wheel.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, I'm honestly trying to understand the logic behind preferring KB movement for a game like Skyrim or ME. Quake style I can maybe see (though that's an incredibly rare, borderline non-existent genre these days), and even then it's debatable--doubly so if you're arguing for a universal dongle, which would also have a d-pad for situations where you might need fast all or nothing response.

Yeah, you're trolling. I've already explained why a D-pad isn't a substitute.

Is there that big of a market for people who use gamepads for PC or is it more of a niche thing?

This thread is on page 5.

 

[Horse Armour]

Is there that big of a market for people who use gamepads for PC or is it more of a niche thing?

Lol Wut? Some of the most popular PC games are practically unplayable without a 360 controller including Batman and Assassin's Creed. You know, PC gaming exists outside of WoW, Starcraft and TF2.

 

[Lothars]

Lol Wut? Some of the most popular PC games are practically unplayable without a 360 controller including Batman and Assassin's Creed. You know, PC gaming exists outside of WoW, Starcraft and TF2.

I disagree both Batman and Assassin's Creed are more than playable without a controller, For those types of games I do prefer to use a Controller but they are definitely not unplayable without one.

 

[Bisnic]

Lol Wut? Some of the most popular PC games are practically unplayable without a 360 controller including Batman and Assassin's Creed. You know, PC gaming exists outside of WoW, Starcraft and TF2.

Then i must be a wizard to be able to play the 2 Batman Arkham games perfectly fine with a keyboard + mouse.

 

[Zeliard]

No, I'm honestly trying to understand the logic behind preferring KB movement for a game like Skyrim or ME. Quake style I can maybe see (though that's an incredibly rare, borderline non-existent genre these days), and even it's debatable--doubly so if you're arguing for a universal dongle, which would also have a d-pad for situations where you might need fast all or nothing response.

Again, it's not just the kb - the mouse is just as if not even more important. I prefer kb/m in games like Skyrim and Mass Effect because it just allows for a lot more control, not only in terms of movement but also navigating menus. I agree that games like those would certainly be far more comfortable to play with a pad than something like Quake, but that doesn't mean a kb/m still doesn't get you far more overall speed and precision, hence ease of control. It's just a lot more freeing.

For anything that's first-person, I will always use kb/m, and that also goes for a platformer like Mirror's Edge (which is immeasurably better with kb/m than a pad). For anything 3rd-person that involves aiming, I'll also always use kb/m, i.e. something like GTA games or Dead Space 2 (the first Dead Space had this truly horrendous mouse lag I couldn't totally get rid of that was actually enough to make me use a gamepad).

Where I'll use a pad of some sort on PC is with stuff like sports games, racing games (I don't have a wheel), 3rd-person action games like the Assassin's Creed series and the Batman: Arkhams, as well as for emulators like Dolphin.

PC's all about the options. Cept when devs feel the need to limit them.

 

[ghibli99]

I think some folks here would be shocked by how surprised people IN THIS INDUSTRY react when the prospect of using a gamepad for a PC game is suggested. Just happened to me last week. Talking about a 3rd person action game where the console versions are lead SKUs. The thought of using a wired 360 controller for the PC version? They looked at me like I was nuts... "Why would anyone play a PC game with a control pad?" they asked. So this isn't that surprising, but lame that they don't even put it in there as an option.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes that was poorly worded on my part, I should have included "3D games" or "all games" to that D-pad remark as no FPS/TPS allows the d-pad for movement AFAIK. It's interesting that you would prefer Skyrim with a KB, how does a stealth character even work with digital? I'm assuming crouching only moves at a slow speed or something? I was under the impression there were varying degrees of noise and enemy awareness built into the analog range, but I guess they dumbed it down to where crouching is always as silent as possible, regardless of movement speed?

Yes, it's a speed toggle. I had crouch/stealth bound to the left 'ctrl'. I bound 'left shift' to the sprint command. It's not "dumbed down" because that's how stealth has always worked in Elder Scrolls. It's how it works in the console versions, too.

I'm assuming that is some sort of speed toggle? So you're saying that pushing W + D with your index + middle finger while simultaneously holding shift with your pinky is preferable to pushing an analog stick 2 cm with your thumb? That's a fine example of the point I've been trying to make this whole time.

It's preferable to me. In games like this, I prefer precision in my movement. With analog, it's easy to mess up and put too much strength into your thumb, resulting in running too fast (and alerting enemies in some games), or not putting in enough strength and having your movements not register or register too slowly.

There are situations where I prefer analog, but it generally doesn't have to do with controlling your avatar's speed of movement. That's just how I feel, though.

 

[Corky]

Is there that big of a market for people who use gamepads for PC or is it more of a niche thing?

My pc is my console platform as well. The multiplatform games of today that are specifically made for console I tend to enjoy playing with gamepad.

 

[fluffydelusions]

Weird how they can put so much effort and money into a PC exclusive like SWTOR but something as trivial as gamepad support in ME3 is out of the question...

 

[Odrion]

Squad orders and actions are much better on a mouse and keyboard.

But yeah, this is still really dumb to not offer the choice and their reasoning is pathetic.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It is true that mapping programs don't equal native support. But it's better then asking the developers to force something into the game when they haven't been able to do so for whatever reasons for the last 2 games in the series, especially if that means the developers have to push something out of the game to force something in.

- and the above twitter reply posted seems like a good enough response from Bioware to me. I dont think they would need to lie about the being stretched thin, we all know EA can be a slave-driving Publisher.

-And being angry about something we think is an issue is the rights we have as humans but anger can be based in stupidity and the inability to see the realities of game development as they are, shitty.

They are EA's most important studio right now. I'm pretty sure if they really wanted to answer their fans' desires and implement a dual-ui/control scheme that detects what input method the user is using, they could. It's hard to have sympathy for a massive developer like Bioware and their mega-corporate owner, EA, when they claim they don't have the budget to implement something that has really become the standard for console ports on the PC. If other, smaller, developers can do it elegantly, they can at least implement a toggle option.

 

[SoulClap]

I think some folks here would be shocked by how surprised people IN THIS INDUSTRY react when the prospect of using a gamepad for a PC game is suggested. Just happened to me last week. Talking about a 3rd person action game where the console versions are lead SKUs. The thought of using a wired 360 controller for the PC version? They looked at me like I was nuts... "Why would anyone play a PC game with a control pad?" they asked. So this isn't that surprising, but lame that they don't even put it in there as an option.

That's depressing. I wonder if those same people would be shocked that you can play PC games on an HDTV as well.

 

[Mashing]

I think it's better. Every PC game I've ever played that was also made for consoles had user interfaces that were just complete shit because they had to be designed to work with a gamepad. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I haven't played one yet. So for me, it's not about the control method it's about the user interface.

 

[Cuban Legend]

Jade Empire had it, so shut the hell up with this argument. That game was from over half a decade ago.

This is just lazy development.





::snort::

Lazy development on whose part? Certainly not Bioware's?! ::snort::

1. Jade empire isn't in the Mass effect series is it?
2. LTI Gray Matter did the PC port of Jade Empire

... you shut the hell up.

 

[Bisnic]

This thread is on page 5.

Taking GAF as a representation of how it is in real life is...not a good idea. Not saying that gamepads on PC are absolutely not popular, but you get my point.

 

[Despera]

I feel sorry for anyone who uses "well, ME1 and ME2 didn't have pad support" as defense.

 

[JonathanPower]

Judging from the PC demo:

- No gamepad support
- Encrypted ini file, making it impossible to alter UE engine commands (FOV, flycam, tiledshot, etc.)
- No holster animation, resulting in no 360 degree camera movement in combat scenarios. ALWAYS constant over-the-shoulder view.
- texture resolution akin to a PS2 game
- No hotkeys for inventory, map, etc.

And Bioware seems to have reiterated that ME3 wasn't going to be a poor console port. I don't think the retail version will differ much from the demo.

From this one could guess that for Bioware PC version stands for Pure Crap version...

 

[Mudkips]

I'm assuming that is some sort of speed toggle? So you're saying that pushing W + D with your index + middle finger while simultaneously holding shift with your pinky is preferable to pushing an analog stick 2 cm with your thumb? That's a fine example of the point I've been trying to make this whole time.

The vast, vast, vast majority of games do not benefit from analog speed. You're lucky to get the analog stick to switch between walk and run. A move speed modifier key (and typically you can set this to be either a hold or a toggle) covers that just fine. The analog aspect of the analog stick is mainly used for direction. The mouse covers that perfectly.

Even in games that do go through the effort of recognizing a bunch of different speeds, you either want to be full out running or you want to be tiptoeing.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I think it's better. Every PC game I've ever played that was also made for consoles had user interfaces that were just complete shit because they had to be designed to work with a gamepad. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I haven't played one yet. So for me, it's not about the control method it's about the user interface.

And why not have both? If I did play the game, I would certainly play it with the KB/M (I thought the ME2 PC interface was pretty well done), but why not have the option for those who want to use the pad? I mean, it's already designed and completed on the 360 version (of which a PC-bootable build exists, since games are developed on PCs). It's just a matter of giving players an option. Going that extra tip-toe to please your customers.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Taking GAF as a representation of how it is in real life is...not a good idea. Not saying that gamepads on PC are absolutely not popular, but you get my point.

I do, it was more to point out that, regardless of the answer to the question, it would appear that a lot of people here care so I don't think they give a toss whether it's niche or not.

 

[hwalker84]

so I asked Manveer Heir (from Bioware) about this on Twitter, here's what he said (bottom->up):

That game...with that kind of budget... dunno, seems weird. :/

You should've asked him why they didn't support the pad without any UI changes?

Plenty of games have gone this route.

 

[Despera]

And why not have both? If I did play the game, I would certainly play it with the KB/M (I thought the ME2 PC interface was pretty well done), but why not have the option for those who want to use the pad? I mean, it's already designed and completed on the 360 version (of which a PC-bootable build exists, since games are developed on PCs). It's just a matter of giving players an option. Going that extra tip-toe to please your customers.

Well said.

They're already developing the game for the 360. This pretty much nullifies any claim that adding pad support would ruin the interface.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I think it's obvious that Bioware have been keeping a close eye on HDD prices since the earthquake and want to save us the extra 50mb of space those 360 icons would take up.

 

[Woo-Fu]

You're living in a previous generation if you don't have and use a gamepad on your PC for some games. A previous generation not dominated by consoles, a previous generation where multiplatform development was the exception, not the norm.

I don't really think Bioware can make any excuses when developers with fewer resources are producing games that support both methods of input.

...and as I've said previously I think there are real reasons not being stated for why Bioware is doing this. /tinfoil_hat

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

you guys do notice that the entire interface (and HUD) of the PC version is different from the console version, right?

They wouldn't just have to change a few mappings, but make the entire interface swapable. It's really not reasonable to expect any developer to make that type of effort 'just because'.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

you guys do notice that the entire interface (and HUD) of the PC version is different from the console version, right?

They wouldn't just have to change a few mappings, but make the entire interface swapable. It's really not reasonable to expect any developer to make that type of effort 'just because'.

Why not? Plenty of developers with far fewer resources already do this as has been stated many times in this thread.

And it's not 'just because'. More and more PC owners have a 360 pad or equivalent plugged into their PCs. More and more people are using their PCs in the living room. There's a demand for it. Not answering that demand is just telling your customers you don't care.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

The way I see it, adding controller support is future-proofing your game. If I have my PC hooked up to my HDTV I won't play anything that requires a mouse and keyboard. That means that when I am going through my Steam library I will skip right by games made by Bioware because I don't want to move the PC back to the monitor.

As for the future-proofing, in the future I predict that I and many others will be hooking our PC's up to HDTV's more often than we do today. That is the trend I think. ME1 and 2 are outdated and ME3 will be outdated before it even comes out because they couldn't be bothered to transfer resources from the 360 project to the PC project. They were bothered to add multiplayer, they were bothered to add Kinect support but THIS task is obviously too much for their team to accomplish.

 

[Despera]

you guys do notice that the entire interface (and HUD) of the PC version is different from the console version, right?

They wouldn't just have to change a few mappings, but make the entire interface swapable. It's really not reasonable to expect any developer to make that type of effort 'just because'.

Do you actually know what you're talking about?

I agree with Woo-Fu, they're probably not telling us the real reason behind this.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

you guys do notice that the entire interface (and HUD) of the PC version is different from the console version, right?

They wouldn't just have to change a few mappings, but make the entire interface swapable. It's really not reasonable to expect any developer to make that type of effort 'just because'.

Totes not reasonable for defs.

OH WAIT

Volition
Eidos Montreal
Irrational Games
Rockstar
Vigil
Spicy Horse
Obsidian
Doublefine
Visceral
Crystal Dynamics

Know what that is? That's an off-the-top-of-my-head list of studios which manage to ship PC games with a good UI for both input methods.

 

[Shocking4U]

Then i must be a wizard to be able to play the 2 Batman Arkham games perfectly fine with a keyboard + mouse.

Witchcraft!