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Media Create Sales: Week 24, 2017 (Jun 12 - Jun 18)

zeromcd73

Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211539738&postcount=1

Level 5 showcased 7 mobile titles 11 months ago. All of those mobile titles were meant to be released by now. Now 11 months later, not a single one is out.

Lady Layton was originally spring, Snack World was later announced to be April but is now 2018, Otome hero was meant to be last winter but is now 2017 summer, the Yokai Watch encyclopedia was meant to be in November but is now this summer, Yokai Watch the original game was meant to have released in the fall of last year but is not out yet, Yokai Watch Gerapolism was March of this year but as of now generic 2017, and Fantasy Life is so fucked with several delays it is hard to keep count at this point.
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
Inazuma Eleven: Ares no Tenbin isn't confirmed for mobile iirc. It could be a game for consoles. Then of course, that doesn't mean it will attract people away from CT, but at least it's a different system in that situation, which people use for a different kind of experience, which may actually be a hole that Level-5 still can fill.
I expect the game to be on 3DS/Switch + mobile.... I still think CT will have negative effect on IE. It's pretty much IE without the BS and a better cast, for free. They awe targeting a older audience with IE4 I think, so consumers who already have access to smartphones and mobile games. We will see how this works out for them.

Then again of IE4 really goes back to the basics and delivers, I could see it doing well and actually benefiting from CTs popularity.

In general I would be more excited for these portable IPs if they made the Jump to Switch and were based on the Ninokuni engine. Their 3DS games look good considering the platform.... But for a fresh new revival it might look underwhelming in 2018.
 

casiopao

Member
Nintendo won't develop a MH clone... They also won't develop a COD or Uncharted clone. They can't outdo Capcom and MHXX likely won't be the last Switch MH or MH style game.

I don't know about that now lol. Before Splatoon and ARMS, we probably would also said that Nintendo would not made a third person shooter at all but here we are.

While they wont make a game like Uncharted as it dont resonate much with Japanese gamers, i can see them tackling Hunting genre as their younger devs would resonate moar with the current gaming landscape and of course MH will be a big drive for most of those devs.

That's the other thing if we want to spend time looking at games like those and Ragnarok Odyssey and Final Fantasy Explorers for why they weren't huge as Monster Hunter clones.

Ragnarok Odyssey had Ragnarok IP which is not popular in japan while FF ex had mixed review and quite bad word of mouth in Japan so it is another case of not really a good product.
 

ggx2ac

Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211539738&postcount=1

Level 5 showcased 7 mobile titles 11 months ago. All of those mobile titles were meant to be released by now. Now 11 months later, not a single one is out.

Very baffling.

I thought Level 5 were going to be huge because they had a hit on their hands (YW) and that they would capitalise on it with their move to mobile, instead, all they have to show for now is having Inafune under their wing.
 

Laplasakos

Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211539738&postcount=1

Level 5 showcased 7 mobile titles 11 months ago. All of those mobile titles were meant to be released by now. Now 11 months later, not a single one is out.

Lady Layton was originally spring, Snack World was later announced to be April but is now 2018, Otome hero was meant to be last winter but is now 2017 summer, the Yokai Watch encyclopedia was meant to be in November but is now this summer, Yokai Watch the original game was meant to have released in the fall of last year, Yokai Watch Gerapolism was March of this year but as of now generic 2017, and Fantasy Life is so fucked with several delays it is hard to keep count at this point.

Well, Lady Layton is coming in less than a month, so i will really be surprised if they end up delaying it again.

Also, are they planning this year another Level 5 Vision?
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
I don't know about that now lol. Before Splatoon and ARMS, we probably would also said that Nintendo would not made a third person shooter at all but here we are.

While they wont make a game like Uncharted as it dont resonate much with Japanese gamers, i can see them tackling Hunting genre as their younger devs would resonate moar with the current gaming landscape and of course MH will be a big drive for most of those devs.
Splatoon and ARMS are Nintendo's own takes on specific genres not just some clones of other popular games. I can see Nintendo developing a multi-player co-op action game... And it might even involve hunting or have JRPGs elements,but it wouldnt be just a MH clone - just like Geist wasn't just a Halo clone or ED wasn't just a RE clone.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211539738&postcount=1

Level 5 showcased 7 mobile titles 11 months ago. All of those mobile titles were meant to be released by now. Now 11 months later, not a single one is out.
This is really weird. Maybe they underestimated the ressources needed to ship Ninokuni 2 this year?
 

wrowa

Member
It's easy to see why Level 5 is struggling on the mobile market, though. Their expertise lies in designing relatively deep games for a young audience - similar to GameFreak - but now they are facing a situation where kids are migrating to mobile and are drawn to quick games you can just pick up and play for a couple minutes. That's not really the kind of game Level 5 does and they seem to have problems to successfully adjust their games to that ecosystem.

Weird position for Level 5 to be in. Switch likely isn't yet attracting their primary audience due to its price, they're struggling to find a good mobile strategy and 3DS is getting older and older.

I always imagine Hino being like "who cares" while he's diving Scrooge McDuck style into his money vault filled to the brim with Yokai gold, though.
 

Vena

Member
While playing with the idea of "Nintendo making a new entry for themselves in X genre" is always fun to think about, I think we need a step back and ask ourselves why they'd do such a thing (why chase such a genre when you can try and enter other, more known ones) and, more importantly, who'd do it. The other key detail to note is that all of the current "new entries to a genre" that Nintendo has undertaken are in genres that are already very lively with very many different experiences that have succeeded, the hunter genre, conversely, is a pit of corpses with only one ongoing success.

A project like MHW, even for a company as often times appearing outwardly as inept as Capcom, is a major multi-year project built on years of experience, development work, and tested ideas. That's not something you clap your hands one day and say: "Well, I am going to repeat that with my own twist!" without years of investment, planning, and team building.

A project like Splatoon? A rather amazing renovation on the core concept of sprint/reload/territory (ink is all of these things) in a TPS but when it launched, what was it? A handful of stages, a Mario platformer single-player, one mode until more were added, Miiverse, and a bunch of missing (some later added, some now incoporated from the onset) features one would expect from the genre. It was a skeleton when it launched. A skeleton made of diamond but a skeleton none the less. (And remember, this was made by young people at the company off of a successful pitch.)

A project like ARMS? You'll notice a lot of the same pitfalls as Splatoon. (We discussed this before.) Again, its a solid core that is, effectively, the most basic fundamentals of neutral/footsies boiled down to their purest state with an incorporated Rock/Paper/Scissors combat dichotomy in not only the throw/block/attack triangle but also in the ARM dynamics of heavy/medium/light. But, again, strapped for content at launch and being given extended support for a *while*. (Made by the MK team with some of the best people at Nintendo behind it from a core mechanics perspective.)

In the case of ARMS, its not even a new thing for Nintendo. They have a bevy of fighters under their belt, this is their first notable 3D fighters though, that I can think of off the top of my head.

So then you start thinking about "Well Nintendo should make their own Hunter!" and I'd look at that and say: "Why would they waste their time and money on that when they can create a MOBA." or some other likely far more globally relevant genre than the narrow niche that defines a Hunter game. Let Capcom chase unproven markets and waste their money doing so, Nintendo is far more likely to try and enter markets they know actually exist globally. (More over, it'd be difficult as hell to make a Hunter-genre game with the ARMS/Splatoon strategy as the genre just doesn't work well with low content, imo. This has been a major hurdle in the other Hunters whether it be light overall content, poor combat mechanics, or whatever. It's a tight genre. ARMS and Splatoon are in active, wide genres with many different types of game variants out there that are successful.)

This is Splatoon on a dead console:
Xe0IUKu.png

This is Monster Hunter on a not-dead console with the marketing push of Nintendo and Capcom combined, which Capcom in all their wisdom deemed not enough (yes, they fart these out annually):

Splatoon 2 is going to blow past the Splatoon 1 (and ARMS is going to perform well in the end if not just due to the current voracious software appetite of Switch owners) numbers while we're left wondering if MHW is even going to reach par. Nintendo has no real vested interest or logical reason to enter the Hunter genre right now. They built/tried to build an audience globally with the 3DS for the genre but that was deemed inadequate by the company behind the brand and Nintendo's response is likely ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

They'd have a better time investing their efforts into a Sheik/Zelda stealth/action game in the BotW engine.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Splatoon and ARMS are Nintendo's own takes on specific genres not just some clones of other popular games. I can see Nintendo developing a multi-player co-op action game... And it might even involve hunting or have JRPGs elements,but it wouldnt be just a MH clone - just like Geist wasn't just a Halo clone or ED wasn't just a RE clone.


This is really weird. Maybe they underestimated the ressources needed to ship Ninokuni 2 this year?

It's kinda shocking Nintendo has yet to make an Amiibo toys to life game. Soma Bringer with Amiibo as the character class, save their loot to them. It's a million seller right there. Or just a straight skylanders clone done by Nintendo.
 

KAORIII

Neo Member
The Snack World Trejarers delayed to August 10th, officially for quality reasons. Doubt it'll change much anyway.

https://www.inside-games.jp/article/2017/06/26/108122.html

Seriously... I've preordered my 2DSLL... :(

And the new release date just make me feel that it'll delay again, because next day is a holiday, then it's obon week. Technically big titles should not release on that thursday...

Anyway, can we change the numbers of prediction league? The delay of sw will have some impact on the sales of ever orais imo.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=211539738&postcount=1

Level 5 showcased 7 mobile titles 11 months ago. All of those mobile titles were meant to be released by now. Now 11 months later, not a single one is out.

Lady Layton was originally spring, Snack World was later announced to be April but is now 2018, Otome hero was meant to be last winter but is now 2017 summer, the Yokai Watch encyclopedia was meant to be in November but is now this summer, Yokai Watch the original game was meant to have released in the fall of last year but is not out yet, Yokai Watch Gerapolism was March of this year but as of now generic 2017, and Fantasy Life is so fucked with several delays it is hard to keep count at this point.

o_o
 

ggx2ac

Member
Splatoon and ARMS are Nintendo's own takes on specific genres not just some clones of other popular games. I can see Nintendo developing a multi-player co-op action game... And it might even involve hunting or have JRPGs elements,but it wouldnt be just a MH clone - just like Geist wasn't just a Halo clone or ED wasn't just a RE clone.

They did have inspirations from other games though, ARMS had inspiration from Virtual On and Splatoon had inspiration from Tofu Perfect Dark.

So it wouldn't be surprising if there was a Co-op ARPG game inspired by Monster Hunter.
 

casiopao

Member
Splatoon and ARMS are Nintendo's own takes on specific genres not just some clones of other popular games. I can see Nintendo developing a multi-player co-op action game... And it might even involve hunting or have JRPGs elements,but it wouldnt be just a MH clone - just like Geist wasn't just a Halo clone or ED wasn't just a RE clone.

I am actually saying the same thing lol. If they are able to find some unique formula for hunting genre, i can see Nintendo tried to launch new IP there.
 

watershed

Banned
Level 5 is a hot mess right now. I wish they had doubled down on Fantasy Life when it proved to be a hit. I think it did well both in Japan and outside of Japan.
 

KtSlime

Member
Splatoon and ARMS are Nintendo's own takes on specific genres not just some clones of other popular games. I can see Nintendo developing a multi-player co-op action game... And it might even involve hunting or have JRPGs elements,but it wouldnt be just a MH clone - just like Geist wasn't just a Halo clone or ED wasn't just a RE clone.

Who was talking about a clone? They would make something in the same genre, mess with the formula and (likely) dominate it to the point people would call it its own genre so as not to compare it to the other games.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
I seriously don't understand what the heck is going on with Level 5 and their mobile projects. The amount of delays collected by each and every of their apps has already transcended ridiculous levels.

Nirolak already posted what sounds like a good idea: reducing the volume of in-development games at the same time. It's clear they're probaly stretched way too thin, thus projects keep on getting delayed one after the other. I'd also add it seems they have problems at developing on mobile that go beyond the mere volume of concurrent projects - see how many times specific projects changed.

Actually, how many employees work at Level 5 currently?
 

KtSlime

Member
I seriously don't understand what the heck is going on with Level 5 and their mobile projects. The amount of delays collected by each and every of their apps has already transcended ridiculous levels.

Nirolak already posted what sounds like a good idea: reducing the volume of in-development games at the same time. It's clear they're probaly stretched way too thin, thus projects keep on getting delayed one after the other. I'd also add it seems they have problems at developing on mobile that go beyond the mere volume of concurrent projects - see how many times specific projects changed.

Actually, how many employees work at Level 5 currently?

Everyone, even Capcom is able to release games on mobile, yes even Capcom, if Level 5 can't to it, the problem isn't the platform, but management.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Level 5 is a hot mess right now. I wish they had doubled down on Fantasy Life when it proved to be a hit. I think it did well both in Japan and outside of Japan.

A proper FL2 would go down so well...but it's probably just too late for that.
 

Eolz

Member
They did have inspirations from other games though, ARMS had inspiration from Virtual On and Splatoon had inspiration from Tofu Perfect Dark.

So it wouldn't be surprising if there was a Co-op ARPG game inspired by Monster Hunter.

Who was talking about a clone? They would make something in the same genre, mess with the formula and (likely) dominate it to the point people would call it its own genre so as not to compare it to the other games.

I think the point was that it wouldn't be something like Toukiden/Soul Sacrifice/etc, which while not clones, are still obviously going for the same audience and failing at that due to various issues.
So basically, you all agree.
 

Cookie18

Member
Yeah, Hideki Kamiya posted a photo of his switch lotto raffle #, plus the results on Instagram--he didn't get it. There was over 1k people who signed up for the raffle. Looked like for only 50-60 units too.

Surely he must be able to get one from Nintendo or something?!
 

D.Lo

Member
While playing with the idea of "Nintendo making a new entry for themselves in X genre" is always fun to think about, I think we need a step back and ask ourselves why they'd do such a thing (why chase such a genre when you can try and enter other, more known ones) and, more importantly, who'd do it. The other key detail to note is that all of the current "new entries to a genre" that Nintendo has undertaken are in genres that are already very lively with very many different experiences that have succeeded, the hunter genre, conversely, is a pit of corpses with only one ongoing success.

A project like MHW, even for a company as often times appearing outwardly as inept as Capcom, is a major multi-year project built on years of experience, development work, and tested ideas. That's not something you clap your hands one day and say: "Well, I am going to repeat that with my own twist!" without years of investment, planning, and team building.

A project like Splatoon? A rather amazing renovation on the core concept of sprint/reload/territory (ink is all of these things) in a TPS but when it launched, what was it? A handful of stages, a Mario platformer single-player, one mode until more were added, Miiverse, and a bunch of missing (some later added, some now incoporated from the onset) features one would expect from the genre. It was a skeleton when it launched. A skeleton made of diamond but a skeleton none the less. (And remember, this was made by young people at the company off of a successful pitch.)

A project like ARMS? You'll notice a lot of the same pitfalls as Splatoon. (We discussed this before.) Again, its a solid core that is, effectively, the most basic fundamentals of neutral/footsies boiled down to their purest state with an incorporated Rock/Paper/Scissors combat dichotomy in not only the throw/block/attack triangle but also in the ARM dynamics of heavy/medium/light. But, again, strapped for content at launch and being given extended support for a *while*. (Made by the MK team with some of the best people at Nintendo behind it from a core mechanics perspective.)

In the case of ARMS, its not even a new thing for Nintendo. They have a bevy of fighters under their belt, this is their first notable 3D fighters though, that I can think of off the top of my head.

So then you start thinking about "Well Nintendo should make their own Hunter!" and I'd look at that and say: "Why would they waste their time and money on that when they can create a MOBA." or some other likely far more globally relevant genre than the narrow niche that defines a Hunter game. Let Capcom chase unproven markets and waste their money doing so, Nintendo is far more likely to try and enter markets they know actually exist globally. (More over, it'd be difficult as hell to make a Hunter-genre game with the ARMS/Splatoon strategy as the genre just doesn't work well with low content, imo. This has been a major hurdle in the other Hunters whether it be light overall content, poor combat mechanics, or whatever. It's a tight genre. ARMS and Splatoon are in active, wide genres with many different types of game variants out there that are successful.)

This is Splatoon on a dead console:


This is Monster Hunter on a not-dead console with the marketing push of Nintendo and Capcom combined, which Capcom in all their wisdom deemed not enough (yes, they fart these out annually):


Splatoon 2 is going to blow past the Splatoon 1 (and ARMS is going to perform well in the end if not just due to the current voracious software appetite of Switch owners) numbers while we're left wondering if MHW is even going to reach par. Nintendo has no real vested interest or logical reason to enter the Hunter genre right now. They built/tried to build an audience globally with the 3DS for the genre but that was deemed inadequate by the company behind the brand and Nintendo's response is likely ¯_(ツ)_/¯.

They'd have a better time investing their efforts into a Sheik/Zelda stealth/action game in the BotW engine.
Great post.

Monster Hunter is a series and genre which is successful in one territory in one format only, portable. Anything else has been basically a spin off.

Heck that success was even accidental, how many other cheapo cut down PS2->PSP ports were there? It just turned out this one caught on from 'right place right time' luck.
 

Chris1964

Sales-Age Genius
Nobody gets that behind Snack World 1 month delay there is a secret master plan, like Uppers, that doesn't have to do with preorders quality.
 

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
Mpl90 post deserves a reply, being primarly directed toward Switch skepticals like me.

And here's the promised follow-up: basically outlining the Switch's current situation in the same cathegories used to describe the Wii's.

Hardware sales

In the same way we can't comment way too negatively on potential third party support for Switch since it's three months old, we can't start thinking that its hardware sales will certainly go beyond 3DS' heights. However, we can say that hardware numbers so far are good and that's in spite of major shortages affecting its potential especially since May. Also, thanks to Nintendo's current first party slate, there shouldn't be too many doubts on the system's potential in the mid-term (unless one / two of the biggest games surprisingly fail to live to expectations, of course). As the productions speeds up, shortages should become less and less problematic. Hopefully, that process is moving at a good pace. Overall, the mid-term sales potential is pretty good, which represents a major difference compared to Wii U, PSV and PS4 (PS4 strictly in Japan, the other two on a worldwide scale).

HW sales so far have been positive, no doubts. We don't know the higher ceiling, because of shortages, but we know Japan is interested in the concept. I was pessimistic against initial hw sales too and I was wrong. But my latest posts are concerned about how long the interest can last, if the hw will be sustained only by "Nintendo usual output" (quantity-wise, without an actual merge of their development streams), and so the comment about the concerning third party support.

Software sales/support

Of course, the current third party support cannot be considered "good" on a general level, because it isn't: there are upcoming releases not coming to the system, companies still missing, not too much quantity-wise. Still, there are some good signs for the future, even in this early stage: KT and Square being so upfront and releasing so many titles on the system already, stuff like Fate/Extella and Nights of Azure 2 appearing, some pretty good results already (Bomberman, Puyo Puyo Tetris, Seiken Densetsu Collection - I'd even include DQHI-II on a lower scale, since it's still selling in spite of its high MSRP) with no major discounting in sight (quite unusual compared to most recent hardware launches). Also, as I've said multiple times, Japanese companies tend to be slow to bring their games to new hardware. Moreover, while both 3DS and Vita saw over 60 retail games released in their respective first years, it can be said that the vast majority of those games (especially for the latter) were not that relevant at all. And I'd also dare to say that looking at 3DS's retail releases highlights how different the industry is now: it was a time when digital storefronts weren't nearly as big as they are right now, and 3DS didn't even release with its own eShop. This means that it's possible a good chunk of initial 3DS games would've been digital-only releases. The same, but on a lower scale due to its later release, can be said for Vita.

Nirolak also noted how 3DS started getting a more convinced push from third parties around 9 months after its launch, while Vita/PS4 had to wait a bit more (12-to-18 months) to see releases finally rolling at a regular pace. Personally, given the current worldwide hardware/software success, I think we could see the more important push happening more on the lower side of the 12-to-18 months gap. We'll have to see how things go, but I'm feeling quite confident that to say that a successful platform in all regions shouldn't have problems to see third parties starting releasing their own content on it with a more regular pace. And I know what you're going to say, "The Wii was in the same situation, but the push happened too late". Actually, the situation isn't that similar...


Sorry but here I disagree. There are too many assumptions (so far has been like that but I think that probably...), too many mistery games, too many NDAs and so on.
3DS and PS4 werent' similar at all, because what shows confidence in a console in Japan are also the announcements, not only the actual releases. Both consoles cited had SEVERAL games announced for the console, before/during their respective unveil. Japanese timings of development and actual support are slow, but the main difference is that the software houses simply weren't developing games for Switch, while they already were for 3DS and PS4. If 3DS and PS4 had to wait 9/12 months to start seeing those actual already planned games coming to the console, Switch will have to wait way longer than that. Especially because we should have noted, by now, how software houses AREN'T ANNOUNCING Switch game yet. So, if we look back at 3DS and PS4 and we see how they were more than ready to announce games for those console to confirm support way before the release of those games, we should assume that they aren't developing games and the few under development will start hitting the console way after the 9/12 months seen for 3DS/PS4. And this is exaclty the concern: they weren't developing, they saw initial hw sales, they are evaluating and not yet on board (otherwise we should have already seen significant announcements) and thus if HW sales will continue to go well they will probably start developing something, that will arrive very late in the life cycle.
At a point where HS sales could have already start seeing a decline in their pace, if they must be sustained only by the usual Nintendo output.


The market's context

This is probably what I consider the biggest difference between the Wii and the Switch, for several reasons.
First of all, the Wii came out when Nintendo's own handheld, the DS, was already selling at unpredecented levels, while the PSP was going to see a resurgance in 2007 starting with Monster Hunter Portable 2nd. This is certainly not what's going on right now: the Switch has been released in a time when the 3DS, while still selling and while still kept alive by Nintendo, is far from its glory days; while the Vita (a mediocre success on its own) is rapidly slowing down, with small weekly numbers. Remember how the Wii became, after its first (strong) months, the third best selling system in Japan? The Switch will be the best selling platform in Japan for quite a while, especially once the shortages lessen their hold on the console's sales potential.

It seems that you are ignoring two major factors:
Mobile
PS4 worldwide success
If anything, those two main scenarios are collecting the DS/3DS dust way more than Switch. Nintendo itself so far isn't pushing the Switch as a true successor of the 3DS, trying to keep the 3DS relevant. Mobile is the new "DS", while it is obvious how with PS4 they can have two separated but unique platform where to develop for to find a global success. Back in the Wii days, it wasn't like that, and the Wii was a very attractive platform for a new, wide range of potential targe/sales.


Second, Wii and PS3/360 were extremely different development environments, due to engines / effects / power support's difference between the two, and (a few) Japanese developers who tried to chase success on the Western side of the market couldn't easily adapt their own tech and games for the Wii: more resources and employee were required in order to port PS3/360 games to Wii, if not to create a specific version for the system (maybe running on its own engine). While Switch is less powerful than PS4/Xbox One, the difference isn't nearly as large as the one between Wii and PS3/360 and (even more important) the current major engines / effects are pretty well supported. This means that ports from PS4 and Xbox One are far easier and far cheaper (and this is why we've heard KT having good words about their multiplatform engine on Switch.

This is true: Switch development "asset" is better than the Wii one, comparatevely to the landscape. Still, we are seeing many software houses struggling to shine on it (from Unity to UE4, optimization is not that easy to achieve, apparently). So of course there are less barriers, but there still are barriers, hw-wise.

Moreover, the system seems to be an healthy environment for third party games of different kinds: Bomberman, Puyo Puyo Tetris and Seiken Densetsu Collection have seen good if not great sales given what they represent, while DQHI-II is a fine result for now. Not everything sold even just well (Ultra Street Fighter II is quite low for now, even if given the title we're talking about I don't believe Capcom is THAT unhappy about it), but the current worldwide (so, not just in Japan) situation represents a system enjoying a healthy software environment, both retail and digital (the Arcade Collection over 200,000 units as of a few weeks ago is another demonstration). Certainly, it has to be demonstrated how this is going to translate as more and "corer" games come to the platform, but, again, some good signs already.

C'mon: the only actual success so far has been Bomberman: the best selling episode in more than a decade, on track to become the best selling episode of all time for the franchise (or something like that). This is a significant result, one that could actually move resources internally in Konami toward the Switch. The others? Not that much. We can argue that DQH i-II is decent for what it is, but could this result move something inside SE toward the Switch? Not more than what they are already planning, imho. And yes, they are among the best supporters of the console, not denying that. But can other companies look at DQH I-II sales and evaluate to change their development plan, allocating resources to the Switch moving them away from other streams? I don't see why they should. Of course, the initial support was poor, so we actually have few examples/champèions, but this is often the issue with third parties on Nintendo platforms...

It's also a good thing that the current first party lineup is not just strong, but interestingly quite steady and laser-focused. I'll try to explain myself better. This is the Japanese first year lineup by Nintendo on Wii, including release dates

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess {2006.12.02}
WarioWare: Smooth Moves {2006.12.02}
Wii Sports {2006.12.02}
Wii Play {2006.12.02}
Pokemon Battle Revolution {2006.12.14}
Excite Truck {2007.01.18}
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn {2007.02.22}
Eyeshield 21: Field no Saikyou Senshi Tachi {2007.03.08}
Super Paper Mario {2007.04.19}
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree {2007.04.26}
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast {2007.06.28}
Mario Party 8 {2007.07.26}
Endless Ocean {2007.08.02}
Mario Strikers Charged {2007.09.20}
Super Mario Galaxy {2007.11.1}
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games {2007.11.22}
Wii Fit {2007.12.1}

A lot of games (17), with several major sellers, but also smaller titles; now, that wouldn't be a bad thing, but it becomes a problem when there's a significant gap between important releases. This is exactly what happened between Mario Party 8 and Super Mario Galaxy, around 3 months with no major game in-between. And that's exactly when the Wii started losing its own momentum in Japan, with sales rapidly declining after Obon.

Let's look at the current retail Switch lineup, instead

The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild {2017.03.03}
1-2 Switch {2017.03.03}
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe {2017.04.28}
Arms {2017.06.16}
Splatoon 2 {2017.07.21}
Pokken Tournament 2 {2017.09.22}
Super Mario Odyssey {2017.10.27}
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - Fall 2017

Even if it's not a completely balanced comparison (since we're comparing both lineups up to the consoles' first non-launch Holiday, several more months are included for Wii), it's clear that Switch still has a lower amount of first party retail games, especially if you exclude Fire Emblem Warriors due to its special status of being a third party game in Japan. But as I've already said, it's more "laser-focused", in the sense that the vast majority of this year's releases are good / great games that can all help to carry on the console's momentum, with Xenoblade Chronicles 2 as potentially the lowest selling game among them.

First party lineup so far has been well managed. Good choice to allocate timings, good marketing push and so on. Good product selection too. In fact they are carrying the console in a very good way.
Quantity-wise we are not at the same Wii level you posted, despite Wii U ports and multiplatform games, so my question still stand: how will they manage to support the console if now, exploiting Wii U ports and multiplatform developed delayed games, they aren't able to retail as many products as in the initial Wii era? This is where my concern about them ditching so far the advantages of the hybrid console hits.


Certainly, there's a distinct lack of specifically casual-oriented games outside of 1-2 Switch, which pales in comparison with Wii Sports / Wii Play / Wii Fit, three major first year's tentpoles. Not that Zelda, Mario Kart, Splatoon and Mario are completely unattractive to less informed gamers (especially Splatoon 2, IMHO), but Wii had titles strictly targeted for that kind of customers, and we'll have to see whether Nintendo will start releasing that kind of software (even if in different forms) on Switch again. This could also be a sign of a different approach to the installed base expansion, potentially more traditional: trying to bring early on more core customers, while also releasing major bridge franchises, and then later, as the hardware price decreases, expanding towards less informed customers. This can help third party games as well in Japan.

You brought up another big concern, without solving it.
Casual market represented the vst majority of Wii sales, but now that blue oecan segment has shifted to mobile. I wonder how they could fill the potential gap with the wider market without being able to target that crowd. Nothing so far can make us believe they will actually be able, also looking at the decrease the 3DS suffered compared to the DS era.


It's also interesting to see how there seems to be a specific plan that implies specific gaps (still much smaller than what seen on Wii) in the lineup to let other important third party games the possibility to shine: Minecraft in May, MHXX in August. That's potentially changing in Japan in September, when both Fire Emblem Warriors and Pokken will be released; it still stands how this time the lack of major first party games is actually supplemented by specific third party releases - or better, how it seems it's not a random coincidence of schedules.

If third party games aren't even announced, I can't see how they could properly fit a release schedule. I prefer to not base my analysis of ghots games.

The last major difference in market contexts between Switch and Wii is that PS4 is in a different condition than PS3 back then. Wii and PS3 both released at the end of 2006, and we all know how the latter had major problems in selling on a worldwide scale, and incredible problems at attracting enough Japanese third party support due to different factors (difficult development environment for Japanese developers, DS/PSP gaining further market shares, even the Wii itself, and Microsoft didn't help either due to their several Japanese-focused partnerships - yep, the last generation is an interesting beast). So, slow growth, and 2009 was when things started improving considerably. Meanwhile, the Switch has been released at a time when the PS4 is established in the market, with already several major games released for, as well as upcoming major titles (DQXI, MHW, DW9). It's also true that PS4 is still seeing less-than-ideal sales for a market leader in Japan (I mean, it's still trending not that far from PS3 - but, again, DQXI will surely help in the short-term) while being the biggest platform in Europe and US, and this creates an interesting scenario where the system could be chosen by Japanese developers for potential Asian / Western sales prospects compared to Japanese's.

Sorry, but PS3 VS PS4 situation just confirm my concerns. It is clear how PS4 could well be seen (and actually is) as an healthy worldwide platform, opposed to a suffering PS3. Even with very solid sales, in fact, Switch could still be seen as a secondary choice, due to PS4 record-breaking success, while the Wii at a certain point could have be seen as THE choice, with its outstanding success. So, Switch situation is even harder.

And that's it for my Switch/Wii cross-analysis. It came out...probably longer than what I wanted. Sorry to everyone XD

basically there are very few FACTS to be optimistic about Switch third party support even in Japan.
 

casiopao

Member
If you are seeing everything from negative point of view at all cost, of course there will always be a negative atmosphere there lol.^^
 

KtSlime

Member
Mpl90 post deserves a reply, being primarly directed toward Switch skepticals like me.



basically there are very few FACTS to be optimistic about Switch third party support even in Japan.

There are known knowns and there are known unknowns, but there is also unknown unknowns. Things that we don't know we don't know.

Just because we don't know what games are in development for Switch does not mean there are no games in development for Switch.
 

casiopao

Member
How easily can this post be turned into the opposite?

Because the way u view things had zero middle ground. It is literally Heaven or Hell.^^ And even if something positive happen like u just said that u are shocked that Switch did really well from the beginning, u are always going to put negative spin there about its future. I mean, it can be bad sure. But it also can be good. Or hell, it probably can do decent but not world breaking?

There is many possibilities but if from the first point u are already standing on negative view, u are going to had hard time to accept other positive views.
 
Right now there's only 1 million Switch units sold in Japan, so it's hard to say how well games are doing in terms of attach rate. 10k copies sold equals an attach rate of 1% this week. So let's do some maths with the very limited numbers we have:

I count 4 first-party games and 10 third-party games (including those who didn't chart) out so far with a physical release for the Switch in Japan.

The combined total amount of copies sold of the first-party games (1-2-Switch, Zelda, MK8D, ARMS) is 1.350.137.
Average attach rate per game = 33,75%.

The combined total amount of copies sold of the third-party games so long as they were in the MC top 20 chart is 193.464 (see more below).
Average attach rate per game = 1,93% (excluding games with 0 weeks in the top 20, the number is 3,22%.

Quite a difference. I think the concerns about third-parties are valid, at least in Japan. Of course we don't anything about the rest of the world, except some first-party numbers of March. Of course this also only includes physical purchases. However, the one question is: is this better or worse than on other systems? That's hard to measure right now, and I think we can't judge this in the right way until we see comparisons when multiplatform games release for both PS and Switch at the same time. There aren't many games in this category though. Yorunonaikuni 2 and One Piece: Unlimited World R Deluxe will be the first examples of such games. Oh, and there's Lego City Undercover next week...

So conclusion: it's way too early to see how good a system the Switch is and will be for third-parties.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amount of units sold upon leaving the MC top 20 per third-party Switch game (last date):

Ikenie to Yuki no Setsuna - ? (didn't chart)
Disgaea 5 - ? (didn't chart)
Nobunaga no Yabou: Souzou with PUK - ? (didn't chart)
Dragon Quest Heroes I & II - 32.812 (12 March; 2 weeks)
Puyo Puyo Tetris S - 17.323 (12 March; 2 weeks)
Sangokushi 13 with PUK - ? (didn't chart)
Minna de Waiwai! Spelunker - 7.447 (23 April; 1 week)
Super Bomberman R - 77.015 (30 April; 8 weeks)
Ultra Street Fighter II - 21.139 (4 June; 2 weeks)

Seiken Densetsu Collection is doing pretty well in comparison with 37.728 copies sold after its 3rd week in chart.
 

Laplasakos

Member
If you are seeing everything from negative point of view at all cost, of course there will always be a negative atmosphere there lol.^^

So what you are saying is, opinions can differ? WOW, what other news you have, water is wet maybe? :p

Aostia has good points, really detailed (just like Mpl90). I wouldn't go with him being negative or Mpl90 positive or anything like that.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Right now there's only 1 million Switch units sold in Japan, so it's hard to say how well games are doing in terms of attach rate. 10k copies sold equals an attach rate of 1% this week. So let's do some maths with the very limited numbers we have:

I count 4 first-party games and 10 third-party games (including those who didn't chart) out so far with a physical release for the Switch in Japan.

The combined total amount of copies sold of the first-party games (1-2-Switch, Zelda, MK8D, ARMS) is 1.350.137.
Average attach rate per game = 33,75%.

The combined total amount of copies sold of the third-party games so long as they were in the MC top 20 chart is 193.464 (see more below).
Average attach rate per game = 1,93% (excluding games with 0 weeks in the top 20, the number is 3,22%.

Quite a difference. I think the concerns about third-parties are valid, at least in Japan. Of course we don't anything about the rest of the world, except some first-party numbers of March. Of course this also only includes physical purchases. However, the one question is: is this better or worse than on other systems? That's hard to measure right now, and I think we can't judge this in the right way until we see comparisons when multiplatform games release for both PS and Switch at the same time. There aren't many games in this category though. Yorunonaikuni 2 and One Piece: Unlimited World R Deluxe will be the first examples of such games. Oh, and there's Lego City Undercover next week...

So conclusion: it's way too early to see how good a system the Switch is and will be for third-parties.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amount of units sold upon leaving the MC top 20 per third-party Switch game (last date):

Ikenie to Yuki no Setsuna - ? (didn't chart)
Disgaea 5 - ? (didn't chart)
Nobunaga no Yabou: Souzou with PUK - ? (didn't chart)
Dragon Quest Heroes I & II - 32.812 (12 March; 2 weeks)
Puyo Puyo Tetris S - 17.323 (12 March; 2 weeks)
Sangokushi 13 with PUK - ? (didn't chart)
Minna de Waiwai! Spelunker - 7.447 (23 April; 1 week)
Super Bomberman R - 77.015 (30 April; 8 weeks)
Ultra Street Fighter II - 21.139 (4 June; 2 weeks)

Seiken Densetsu Collection is doing pretty well in comparison with 37.728 copies sold after its 3rd week in chart.

MC gave us a more accurate update on total software sales, up to Week 23, 2017. Here's my analysis about it (which includes also Dengeki-MC cross-references in order to gague a possible total for off-charts third party sales)

After 15 weeks at retail
Switch software - 1.526.000 (1,60 attach rate)
Wii U software - 1.189.000 (1,45 attach rate)

Oh, do we have numbers with a similar time-frame for other platforms?

In the meanwhile

Switch software sales after 15 weeks - 1,526,000

First party

Total first party sales - 1,219,846

Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - 505,270
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - 494,526
1-2 Switch - 220,050

Third party

Total third party sales - 306,154

Let's consider all the third party known sales so far

Super Bomberman R (as of Week 17, 2017) - 77,015
Dragon Quest Heroes I-II for Nintendo Switch (as of Week 12, 2017) - 41,419
Seiken Densetsu Collection - 34,893
Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers (as of Week 22, 2017) - 21,139
Puyo Puyo Tetris S (as of Week 10, 2017) - 17,323
Minna de Wai Wai! Spelunker (as of Week 16, 2017) - 7,447

Total known sales - 199,236

Third party sales still unkown (Disgaea 5: Complete + I am Sestuna + Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence with Power Up Kit + Romance of the Three Kingdoms XIII with Power Up Kit + all the other games with weekly sales missing) - 106,918

Cross-tracker theory (so, it can't be 100% reliable): assuming Dengeki post-launch sales were similar to MC's sales outside of Top 20, going with MC debuts, we'd have

Super Bomberman R - around 90,000
Dragon Quest Heroes I-II for Nintendo Switch - around 56,000
Puyo Puyo Tetris S (as of Week 20, 2017) - 38,198 (I suppose we can assume 40,000 copies ca. as of Week 23, 2017)
Seiken Densetsu Collection - 34,893
Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers - around 23,000
Minna de Wai Wai! Spelunker (as of Week 20, 2017) - around 14,000

Total theorical sales - 257,893

Third party sales for the titles that never appeared on MC top 20 (Disgaea 5: Complete + I am Setsuna + Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence with Power Up Kit + Romance of the Three Kingdoms XIII with Power Up Kit) - 48,261
 
Combining Mpl90's calculated numbers and Chris1964's 1,60 attach rate suggest that 12,5% of all Switch owners have bought a third-party game.
 

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
So what you are saying is, opinions can differ? WOW, what other news you have, water is wet maybe? :p

Aostia has good points, really detailed (just like Mpl90). I wouldn't go with him being negative or Mpl90 positive or anything like that.

thank you
I have nothing against Switch enthusiast, especially if try to detail their opinion.
I just want to express mine, usually with the same level of detail.
Switch is a very "torned" console, with good hw sales hardly to judge due to shortages, very strong sw sales but primarly from a first party house that will continue sustaining the console but has demostrated many time of not being able to continously support more than 1 hw at a time and a very weak and almost non-existent third party support
So, it IS a weird situation imho.

Low-effort ports of niche and retro games failing to light up the charts is not exactly surprising.


I agree, but the main issue is that at the same time there is no actual real indicator at how a normal/good third party game/support would perform on Switch
and nothing known could be used as a metric, imho.
DQXI or MHXX would have been strong third party products able to show the actual Switch capability to sell third party games, but as they have been managed (with the PS4/3DS versions to come out waaaaaaaaaaay earlier and nothing shown so far for the Switch version, or MH World "dèbacle", MHXX 3DS priority and underperfoming numbers...) they will not be as indicative as we tought back in the days
So far, I struggle to see any other significant third party game actually interesting in setting a possible trend for third party software houses
 
thank you
I have nothing against Switch enthusiast, especially if try to detail their opinion.
I just want to express mine, usually with the same level of detail.
Switch is a very "torned" console, with good hw sales hardly to judge due to shortages, very strong sw sales but primarly from a first party house that will continue sustaining the console but has demostrated many time of not being able to continously support more than 1 hw at a time and a very weak and almost non-existent third party support
So, it IS a weird situation imho.




I agree, but the main issue is that at the same time there is no actual real indicator at how a normal/good third party game/support would perform on Switch
and nothing known could be used as a metric, imho.
DQXI or MHXX would have been strong third party products able to show the actual Switch capability to sell third party games, but as they have been managed (with the PS4/3DS versions to come out waaaaaaaaaaay earlier and nothing shown so far for the Switch version, or MH World "dèbacle", MHXX 3DS priority and underperfoming numbers...) they will not be as indicative as we tought back in the days
So far, I struggle to see any other significant third party game actually interesting in setting a possible trend for third party software houses

Well since consoles sales all around are doing bad in Japan where else do you expect Japanese third parties go to? Portables are Japan's bread and butter and the Switch is the answer to that. We have also seen a huge crowd of people standing in line for it. Splatoon 2 is just only going to increase the demand.

Mobile?
 

casiopao

Member
So what you are saying is, opinions can differ? WOW, what other news you have, water is wet maybe? :p

Aostia has good points, really detailed (just like Mpl90). I wouldn't go with him being negative or Mpl90 positive or anything like that.

Having opinion is literally one of the worst excuse i really hate when we are talking about data here. That is like the most overused excuse one would use when he wanted to push his own view disregarding what truly happen.

Just like how i really hate people being overly positive on Switch situation, being overly negative is also a stupid thing to had.

Currently there are simply too much uncertainties going on with the system, We are really early in the system life. There are quite a number of third party games not launched on Switch at all. There are also trend which shows that Jp devs usually show up late in new console generation.

There both positive and negative points and when one is simply pushing one point and disregarding one, that is what i called being bias.

Well since consoles sales all around are doing bad in Japan where else do you expect Japanese third parties go to? Portables are Japan's bread and butter and the Switch is the answer to that. We have also seen a huge crowd of people standing in line for it. Splatoon 2 is just only going to increase the demand.

Mobile?

There is many place devs can goes anyway.

Mobile is currently the hottest item on Japan.
Switch is probably the second hottest item right now in Japan.
PS4 and PC if they are betting on the West to save their arse.

Or easier, just give up and actually try on new other industries other than gaming like Pachinko or gambling. The potential is limitless anyway.^^
 

Chris1964

Sales-Age Genius
According to sinobi almost 100% of Metroid preorders at Amazon are for the Special Edition, nobody cares for the normal.
 
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