Support NeoGAF

[valkyre]

Haha, for real? If that isn't a joke, he just undermined the entire point he was making.

You need to read more carefully...

 

[A Link to the Past]

This is horseshit. When you have comedians not going to specific events due to people crying about nothing, or apologizing for doing comedic jokes, it is a problem. Even cases where comedians are trying new jokes before putting it out at comedy clubs where they specifically ask for no cameras (the joke is obviously rough).. then you have some twat recording it, posting it online and start a cry campaign to ask a comedian to apologize about a bit that's not even cleaned up yet.

A lot of top comedians have stated that this hurts comedy overall and some comedians are afraid to go as far as they would, but I guess someone on gaf just knows better than those guys.


I literally don't understand the point of this. "I like a funny tv show." Ok?

The fact that you do a blanket dismissal of criticism of comedy tells me that you've straight up prioritized doubling down on your worldview over fact or reason. And I'll say what I always say: you must think very little of comedy if your response to criticism is to essentially call comedy not worth criticizing in the first place. If you can't handle reading criticism of things you like, then suck it up. A comedian apologizing for a joke is clearly not preventing good humor from existing, because we have tons of amazing comedians to this day, perhaps more than ever.

And your lack of understanding is your failing, not mine. I'm just wondering what you think of a show that makes efforts to be politically correct while also being critically revered as a hilarious comedy. The death of comedy (as long as you ignore the innumerable exceptions)?

Honestly, your post veers dangerously close to "criticism = censorship." Dave Chappelle received perhaps the biggest criticism (or crying as you pose it) for his joke about transgender people. Did his set change? Did he come out and vow to change his ways? Is he still a big deal? No, no, and yes. So what examples do you have that comedy as an art form is dying?

You completely misread that.

I strongly recommend that people watch Lindsay Ellis's video on this topic, because she does an incredible job of talking through Mel Brook's stance on this very issue and explaining why it doesn't mean what a lot of people in this thread think it means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cPPSyoQkE

Apologies, misunderstood the text.

 

[Yaboosh]

The only thing about Blazing Saddles that really wouldn't fly today is a white dude making it.

 

[King Tubby]

The only thing about Blazing Saddles that really wouldn't fly today is a white dude making it.

Who stopped Tarantino from making Django Unchained?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Who stopped Tarantino from making Django Unchained?

Django isn't 100% non-problematic, but they're apples and oranges. Whatever controversy Blazing Saddles received isn't the setting and subject matter, it's the handling.

The worst thing, and the thing that really got people annoyed, was when Tarantino himself kept saying the n-word.

 

[Yaboosh]

Who stopped Tarantino from making Django Unchained?

Tarantino has been very heavily criticized for his use of the n word in his movies.

 

[Servbot24]

I have to vote for Trump or else they'll take Louis CK away!

 

[Seganomics]

A lot of people here really need to watch more movies.



For real... Blazing Saddles is an all-time great.

As is Young Frankenstein. The 'Putting on the Ritz' scene is still amazing.

 

[legacyzero]

You completely misread that.

I strongly recommend that people watch Lindsay Ellis's video on this topic, because she does an incredible job of talking through Mel Brook's stance on this very issue and explaining why it doesn't mean what a lot of people in this thread think it means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cPPSyoQkE

This 👆

Quoting for new page

 

[Yaboosh]

A lot of arguments on this will likely be based around a disagreement of what political correctness entails. And when it isn't established and agreed upon prior to this discussion you get a bunch of arguing that goes nowhere because there basis is unclear.

 

[Audioboxer]

Personal political correctness is fine if it is you administering your own veil of "things I don't find funny and do not want to watch/support/fund/participate in". The political correctness that isn't appreciated is when individuals cannot control their own emotions and instead of just absenting themselves from watching/laughing/taking part they wish to try by some sort of demand/force/implication absent others from being able to watch/laugh/take part.

So yeah, criticising something and/or absenting yourself from it is absolutely fine. It's when people cannot accept/understand/be okay with others not adhering to the same opinion/thought. How that is becoming difficult for comedians is out of proportion protest/name-calling/accusations and in your face hostility/aggression. Most people cannot be bothered with individuals who fail to get satire when it turns nasty and out comes aggression/name-calling and public tarring. It ends up being a micro-job itself trying to constantly clear your name from nonsensical blog headlines and accusations. In the read the headline don't bother reading the article/doing any investigation world we live in, it's a nightmare.

A big learning outcome for life is being able to navigate it and not have everyone adhere to the same opinion as yourself, especially when it comes to comedy/satire. Comedy is such a subjective field, but at the core of it people need to be intellectually honest with what is indeed satire/comedy, and not take a sawed-off shotgun to everything they do not like with some of the most ridiculous accusations/name-calling that can be seen at times.

Most Offensive Joke

Hah. I know some in the UK don't like him but I love some Jimmy Carr. His stand-up is probably better than his hosting.

 

[legacyzero]

The only thing about Blazing Saddles that really wouldn't fly today is a white dude making it.

But isn't that just a form of political correctness? It's not a strawman at all. You literally just highlighted it. Mel Brooks is literally the antithesis to that point. Why should it be about WHO does it, if they handle the material well, as he has done?

Who stopped Tarantino from making Django Unchained?

Did that stop any of his movies from being good, and handling the material well, regardless of criticism?

Didn't he essentially do what Mel Brooks did in that it's not THAT you handle the content, but HOW?

 

[The Technomancer]

Obviously comedy must be able to be transgressive and even offensive. But now more than ever we're tuned into who is doing the offending, and for what purpose.

 

[deli2000]

Personal political correctness is fine if it is you administering your own veil of "things I don't find funny and do not want to watch/support/fund/participate in". The political correctness that isn't appreciated is when individuals cannot control their own emotions and instead of just absenting themselves from watching/laughing/taking part they wish to try by some sort of demand/force/implication absent others from being able to watch/laugh/take part.

So yeah, criticising something and/or absenting yourself from it is absolutely fine. It's when people cannot accept/understand/be okay with others not adhering to the same opinion/thought. How that is becoming difficult for comedians is out of proportion protest/name-calling/accusations and in your face hostility/aggression. Most people cannot be bothered with individuals who fail to get satire when it turns nasty and out comes aggression/name-calling and public tarring.

The problem is that people often like to accuse people doing the former as actually doing the latter because they dared criticise something that you liked.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Then let Mel Brooks say that.

He did. He just found a way to shorten it to one sentence. And more people here seem to be understanding what he's saying than not. So it seems like the problem is really more on you here.

 

[jph139]

So how is political correctness killing comedy or hurting comedians, again? Because people can call them out more easily now? Boo fucking hoo. A movie like Blazing Saddles totally could be made today. It wouldn't be exactly the same, and all of the jokes might not make it through in the same form, but the general substance of the movie would be preserved. I'm just not seeing it.

Someone earlier posted a sentiment from Chris Rock that made sense to me:

Chris rock had a much better take on this. Or basically expressed the similar concerns a bit better, at least in regards to stand up.

Essentially, while it isn't affecting comedians who are already successful, it COULD affect comedians who are just learning the trade. Chappelle and Louis CK didn't learn how to play with the line of acceptability overnight.

There's a risk of people, who could grow into brilliant comedians, being criticized and shouted down too harshly for overstepping their bounds and not being given a chance to learn. Bill Maher can get away with a dumb, racially insensitive joke. Can John Doe, who just got his big break, do the same thing?

I'm not a part of the comedy scene so I don't know if this is a legitimate fear or just hypothetical nonsense. But, on the face of it, that makes sense to me.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Modern comedy could definitely learn a LOT from Mel Brooks. Instead of the "lets preach to our audience" John Oliver one-note shtick, Mel Brooks made a career completely ridiculing Nazi's and Racists, which is a far more effective subversion of culture than joining team politics.

 

[Sephzilla]

I'm kind of conflicted on the topic.

On the one hand comedy should be something that can push limits, but on the flip side really poor taste humor that offends people is something I'm not okay with.

 

[Mihos]

I read that. And it's still not what he said. It's not that you can or cannot joke about those things, but it's in how you do it.

I'm still waiting for "Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money."

They should call it Space Balls 3: The Search for Space Balls 2

 

[entremet]

Obviously comedy must be able to be transgressive and even offensive. But now more than ever we're tuned into who is doing the offending, and for what purpose.

I honestly think comedy is less crass these days. Have you seen Eddie Murphy's RAW recently? Or seen Andrew Dice Clay's old routines?

Comedy, like all art forms, continue to grow and evolve. My issue that is many of the criticism against comedy doesn't come from nuance and care, like the Cancel Colbert movement.

Modern comedy could definitely learn a LOT from Mel Brooks. Instead of the "lets preach to our audience" John Oliver one-note shtick, Mel Brooks made a career completely ridiculing Nazi's and Racists, which is a far more effective subversion of culture than joining team politics.

Agreed. Satire is also a dying art it seems. At least in its perception.

 

[rudger]

Nobody should tell a holocaust joke but he’s saying apart from holocaust jokes everything else is fine. Which is what I find a problem with.

He says he personally wouldn't tell one. Not that it's never okay for a comedian to make one. That's kind of a huge difference you're ignoring.

Edit: I should've noticed this was covered already.

Also, growing up in a Jewish community, I've got a few Holocaust jokes. I am a terrible person

 

[King Tubby]

Django isn't 100% non-problematic, but they're apples and oranges. Whatever controversy Blazing Saddles received isn't the setting and subject matter, it's the handling.

I've never heard of anyone call Blazing Saddles a racist movie. NeoGAF Off-Topic is probably one of the most "PC" message boards with any significant following, and in a discussion about this very subject, hardly anyone on this forum took issue with the content or handling of Blazing Saddles (in fact, nobody in this thread has, either). Everyone just defers to the ominous "PC police" clearly lurking in the shadows ready to ruin everything.

The worst thing, and the thing that really got people annoyed, was when Tarantino himself kept saying the n-word.

Tarantino has been very heavily criticized for his use of the n word in his movies.

And it hasn't affected his career one fucking iota. So what's the problem? He can't receive criticism? Who's being censored here?

Did that stop any of his movies from being good, and handling the material well, regardless of criticism?

Didn't he essentially do what Mel Brooks did in that it's not THAT you handle the content, but HOW?

You misunderstand me. I really enjoyed Django Unchained. I'm saying, even though people levied criticisms, the vast majority of people weren't frothing at the mouth at the idea that Tarantino would make such a movie. "Political correctness" didn't stop him from realizing his artistic vision.

 

[deli2000]

I honestly think comedy is less crass. Have you seen Eddie Murphy's RAW recently? Or seen Andrew Dice Clay's old routines?

Comedy, like all art forms, continue to grow and evolve. My issue that is many of the criticism against comedy doesn't come from nuance and care, like the Cancel Colbert movement.

Most of the blind worship of the form doesn't come from nuance or care either tbh.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

key word: personally

Of course it's up to each individual, how else would it be? He's simply stating that he's ok with holocaust humor, but it's off limits for him personally. That's not meaningful- he's still offended by holocaust humor. He's essentially absolving himself of having any principles in that instance. That's not wisdom or anything to admire. It's a self centered perspective, giving himself carte blanche to be politically incorrect in whatever way he sees fit by giving everyone else the ok to do the same. Maybe Mel Brooks can tolerate someone else's holocaust humor, but the world doesn't revolve around Mel Brooks. He's just thinking of himself here.

 

[Yaboosh]

Modern comedy could definitely learn a LOT from Mel Brooks. Instead of the "lets preach to our audience" John Oliver one-note shtick, Mel Brooks made a career completely ridiculing Nazi's and Racists, which is a far more effective subversion of culture than joining team politics.

In a world where people took Chappele's skits about race literally and laughed at the black people instead of the racists it was actually making fun of, that may not be as effective as you might hope.

 

[prag16]

And we got ourselves another milkshake duck

And this is the moment where this term has lost all meaning.

 

[Scuffed]

I don't think anything should be off limits in comedy.

 

[Aikidoka]

Shame he doesn't really provide an argument. He seems to frame it as a comedy can no longer tackle issues like racism nowadays, which seems like a daft thing to say. Get Out does it and is one of the most commercially and critically successful movies of the year.

 

[deli2000]

Has there been an incident where a major comedian's career has been tanked because of this PC problem? Like actually in a financial sense? I'm actually curious if this issue is quantified in any way. Because my experience in amateur circuits indicates to me that we're heading in the opposite direction.

 

[Fenderputty]

How many times can PC kill comedy before it stays dead lol

It kind of makes me sad the man himself thinks Blazing Saddles couldn't get made today...

You think it could? We have a yearly thread about this it feels like.

 

[valkyre]

Of course it's up to each individual, how else would it be? He's simply stating that he's ok with holocaust humor, but it's off limits for him personally. That's not meaningful- he's still offended by holocaust humor. He's essentially absolving himself of having any principles in that instance. That's not wisdom or anything to admire. It's a self centered perspective, giving himself carte blanche to be politically incorrect in whatever way he sees fit by giving everyone else the ok to do the same. Maybe Mel Brooks can tolerate someone else's holocaust humor, but the world doesn't revolve around Mel Brooks. He's just thinking of himself here.

I dont think Mel Brooks acted as if the world revolves around him. He simply said that comedy and political correctness contradict each other. And that comedy suffers because of that.

I dont get how you deduced that he is "thinking of himself here".

 

[ThisGuy]

Lmao, I don't think it will be. Left laughs at white people and no one else. Right laughs at everyone but white people.

It balances out.

 

[pastrami]

Once again the statement should be read carefully. You'll notice he has a problem that the movie makes the concentration camps seem like they weren't all that bad. This is different and separate from, nobody must ever joke about concentration camps.

But he said this:

It showed the barracks in which Jews were kept like cattle, and it made jokes about it. The philosophy of the film is: people can get over anything. No, they can’t. They can’t get over a concentration camp.

And further reinforces that idea with this:

But I would never have thought of the idea of showing how a black was lynched.

Indicating that yes, he feels there are limits. Maybe not for broad topics like racism or the Holocaust, but that there are definitely lines you shouldn't cross. Like lynchings and concentration camps.

 

[Yaboosh]

We really need to establish what political correctness means in this context because I think everybody here is working on a different definition.

I don't think anybody would argue all comedy is beyond criticism. That's stupid.

So what is political correctness specifically? And what is this bad impact it has had on comedy?

 

[King Tubby]

Essentially, while it isn't affecting comedians who are already successful, it COULD affect comedians who are just learning the trade. Chappelle and Louis CK didn't learn how to play with the line of acceptability overnight.

There's a risk of people, who could grow into brilliant comedians, being criticized and shouted down too harshly for overstepping their bounds and not being given a chance to learn. Bill Maher can get away with a dumb, racially insensitive joke. Can John Doe, who just got his big break, do the same thing?

I'm not a part of the comedy scene so I don't know if this is a legitimate fear or just hypothetical nonsense. But, on the face of it, that makes sense to me.

Is that because of political correctness gone mad, or because everything people do is preserved for all eternity now? Back in the day if you made an insensitive joke that didn't land, you'd probably get booed or heckled, it just wouldn't be recorded on camera. That's not a societal hurdle, it's a technological one. If you make an edgy joke today that makes people laugh their asses off, I don't think it would be as ruinous as some claim (unless it's also really hateful).

The last "edgy" joke I can think of that ruined someone's career was when Michael Richards went on a racist tirade onstage. I don't recall anyone blaming political correctness for that fuck-up. He was just kinda spewing hate speech at an audience member. I suppose you can also count Anthony Cumia getting fired from his radio show for his twitter tirade, but again, not the same thing as making an ill-considered joke (and the capper to a long, long history of being unapologetically racist).

 

[Addi]

Actual political correctness is taking a "both sides" position to not step on any toes.

 

[V-Faction]

Glad I watched the video.

 

[Ventilaator]

Most Offensive Joke

Whenever anyone complains about political correctness killing comedy, I always wonder why the PC executioners haven't come for people like Jimmy Carr and Anthony Jeselnik yet.

Kinda makes it seem like maybe actually no problem exists and comedy is doing perfectly fine.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Nothing is off limits in comedy. To expect comedians to be some leaders and champions of political movements is a foolish notion. Most comedians are pathetic people who can barely function in normal society.

Is that because of political correctness gone mad, or because everything people do is preserved for all eternity now? Back in the day if you made an insensitive joke that didn't land, you'd probably get booed or heckled, it just wouldn't be recorded on camera. That's not a societal hurdle, it's a technological one. If you make an edgy joke today that makes people laugh their asses off, I don't think it would be as ruinous as some claim (unless it's also really hateful).

The last "edgy" joke I can think of that ruined someone's career was when Michael Richards went on a racist tirade onstage. I don't recall anyone blaming political correctness for that fuck-up. He was just kinda spewing hate speech at an audience member. I suppose you can also count Anthony Cumia getting fired from his radio show for his twitter tirade, but again, not the same thing as making an ill-considered joke (and the capper to a long, long history of being unapologetically racist).

The Michael Richards thing was 100% not a joke though. He attacked those black guys directly after losing it. Then after he realized what he had done he tried to play it off which obviously didn't work.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

The fact that you do a blanket dismissal of criticism of comedy tells me that you've straight up prioritized doubling down on your worldview over fact or reason. And I'll say what I always say: you must think very little of comedy if your response to criticism is to essentially call comedy not worth criticizing in the first place. If you can't handle reading criticism of things you like, then suck it up. A comedian apologizing for a joke is clearly not preventing good humor from existing, because we have tons of amazing comedians to this day, perhaps more than ever.

Ahh yes, the good old "lets go to an extreme to make a point", never heard this one before. Context is extremely important. Jim Norton explains this perfectly over the people that annoy me when they get offended over dumb shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up1qyxHSbCg

If you have common sense, you can tell when someone is just being a dick, racist, homophobic etc. within the correct context or just making jokes. He even gives an example of the guy from Seinfeld just being a racist piece of shit rather than being funny, which I totally agree with. A lot of the time and that is the issue, you have people like the one in the video getting offended and then (some) comedians having to listen to them because enough professional victims cry wolf.

What do I have to suck up exactly? I don't have to tolerate moronic criticism, and I don't. I just laugh or cringe when I see it and move on. I am lucky that my favorites don't listen to these kinds of people.

And your lack of understanding is your failing, not mine. I'm just wondering what you think of a show that makes efforts to be politically correct while also being critically revered as a hilarious comedy. The death of comedy (as long as you ignore the innumerable exceptions)?

I don't think it's dying but it has gotten damaged. That's why I take the word of people who lead the industry, not a gaffer online. It would be like you telling me global warning is a hoax over thousands of professionals that state otherwise that lead in their field. As for Bojak doing great, I mean again.. good for that show? The more variety, the better. Why would I ever have a problem with that show? :S We're not discussing that kind of comedy though. If your point is that PC comedy can be funny, my only reaction is no fucking shit? It doesn't mean that all comedy needs to follow that type of comedy.

Honestly, your post veers dangerously close to "criticism = censorship." Dave Chappelle received perhaps the biggest criticism (or crying as you pose it) for his criticism. Did his set change? Did he come out and vow to change his ways? Is he still a big deal? No, no, and yes. So what examples do you have that comedy as an art form is dying?

Apologies, misunderstood the text.

Hi, I would like to introduce you to my post from a couple of mins ago from this very topic, from the previous page.

Thank God there's still people like Burr and Chappelle that don't give a fuck regardless of how many cries there are and tell the jokes they want to.

Comedy will never die, but it is being hurt and gave your reasons off the top of my head,
- certain venues not worth even going
- working on new bits, someone records and puts it online despite comedians purposefully stating not to do it
- some of the best in the business saying that there is censorship on comedy

 

[The Giant]

He's right. PC is destroying comedy. Everything in this planet can be joked about no matter how serious the topic is.

 

[Extra Sauce]

#1: No topics should be off limits to humor.
#2: Some people use #1 as a cover for their hateful rhetoric.
#3: Other people react to #2 by abandoning #1.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I dont think Mel Brooks acted as if the world revolves around him. He simply said that comedy and political correctness contradict each other. And that comedy suffers because of that.

I dont get how you deduced that he is "thinking of himself here".

In some cultures, it's acceptable comedy to have pictures taken of themselves making 'Asian eyes' when they're in Asia. Would Brooks agree that making 'Asian eyes' is healthy for the overall art of comedy? Would he feel deep down that it's messed up and hurtful but convince himself it's ok so that he's consistent?

 

[UltimaPooh]

Why would anyone want to tell a holocaust joke?

It's the aristocrats.

 

[Principate]

^ Isn't it cute how this term is soon going to be as ruined by hyperbole as "Fake News" or "SJWs"?

Would it really be a great loss?

 

[Skellig Gra]

Would it really be a great loss?

We'll move on to the next meme and it will be much danker.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

What are some examples of pc killing comedy?

 

[zeemumu]

A good comic can make a joke about practically anything work. It's all about knowing your audience and timing.

What are some examples of pc killing comedy?

I assume he means because films like Blazing Saddles and Young Frankenstein or The Producers can probably never be made again.

 

[King Tubby]

If you have common sense, you can tell when someone is just being a dick, racist, homophobic etc. within the correct context or just making jokes. He even gives an example of the guy from Seinfeld just being a racist piece of shit rather than being funny, which I totally agree with. A lot of the time and that is the issue, you have people like the one in the video getting offended and then (some) comedians having to listen to them because enough professional victims cry wolf.

The bolded is exactly why all of the worry about political correctness killing comedy is overblown. This is as true now as it ever was. The only difference nowadays is that, because of technological progress, a) everyone has a camera, so a fuckup (in any regard) never just disappears and b) everyone has a voice, so people who take offense can more easily be heard (and often, ridiculed). That's a different phenomenon from "everybody's too sensitive nowadays."

 

[valkyre]

In some cultures, it's acceptable comedy to have pictures taken of themselves making 'Asian eyes' when they're in Asia. Would Brooks agree that making 'Asian eyes' is healthy for the overall art of comedy? Would he feel deep down that it's messed up and hurtful but convince himself it's ok so that he's consistent?

By your logic, comedy in its entirety should be abandoned. Because you can find some person on this planet to be offended about any particular joke you could make.

An asian could be offended by a comedian making asian eyes in asia. An obese person could be offended about someone making a joke in the US about it. A short person could be offended by a joke about short people.

Literally, you cannot tell a joke that there is no person on this planet that could not find it offensive.

Which simply begs the question, is that a problem of comedy, or the individual that finds offense in the fact that comedy of this kind exists?

PS: I am Greek and I've been hearing the same old jokes latelly, how I am lazy, I dont pay my debts and I steal money. As long as this is told in the context of a comedy/satire/ joke (and a good one at that) I am super cool about it and I laugh out loud myself at it. Now if some people take the excuse of this joke to actually insult, then its a whole different matter. It is not hard to understand who is joking and who isnt.