Support NeoGAF

[phanphare]

So he's not okay with jokes about things that draw on his and his community's history... buuut every other group and their history is fair game?

Hypocritical...

Pretty much my take-away from this. Well, respect lost for Mel today.

watch this please, it's time stamped right where it should be

I'll link specifically to the most relevant portion of Lindsay Ellis's video which is about the very quotes being discussed in this thread.

https://youtu.be/62cPPSyoQkE?t=2025

But I strongly recommend watching the entire thing. The section prior to this one is also fairly relevant.

 

[brau]

Did anyone watch Conan last night. Max Brooks was a guest and he claims that Mel Brooks is essentially teaching his brand of comedy to Max's son which worries him.

http://teamcoco.com/video/max-brooks-my-father-son-both-have-a-1970-s-sense-of-humor

For some context.

 

[Ekai]

My go to response for the role of political correctness in comedy. BoJack Horesman's Raphael Bob-Waksberg sums it up perfectly in a VICE interview.




https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/...ship?utm_campaign=global&utm_source=vicefbanz

That's a good way to describe it. I should watch Bojack more.

Have you ever watched anything he's done? He's constantly making fun of Jews.

I've watched almost everything he's made. He's outright saying that "PC GONE MAD" is some legit fucking thing but also thinks that his communities tragedies should be off-limits. It's hypocritical as all get out. Fuck Mel for this bullshit argument.

 

[Limit]

On topic of political correctness I'm always reminded of Patrice O'Neal interview where he tries to argue, in his own way, that there is never going to be a clear line that delineates between funny and unfunny. What further complicates this picture is everyone has their "thing", their sacred untouchable subject. But there ought to be room in a society for comedy to frequently cross the line. Here's the short video. Ignore the video title.

Serious topics can survive mockery.

Btw, Patrice was principled on the topic of comedians having free reign over any kind of jokes. Dude looked genuinely hurt when Amy Schumer made a brutal diabetes joke at Charlie Sheen's comedy roast. He was hurt but didn't call for Amy's head the next day arguing the joke was over the line. I couldn't find a clip of it but this is what she said:

"Patrice O'Neal, one of my favorite comics. Patrice has always been destined for stardom, and diabetes. So tonight is not just the roast of Charlie Sheen, it's also a farewell party for Patrice's foot"

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Comedy is an abstract thing. It is not able to evolve into anything. It's the opinions of people that change. And if the opinions change enough, they can suppress what that abstract thing can be.

So if the opinions of society change so that we understand it's fucked up to make, say, blackface comedy or other jokes predicated on hurtful and wrong stereotypes, it's a bad thing that such 'humor' is no longer considered socially acceptable?

Man, fuck that mentality.

 

[phanphare]

I've watched almost everything he's made. He's outright saying that "PC GONE MAD" is some legit fucking thing but also thinks that his communities tragedies should be off-limits. It's hypocritical as all get out. Fuck Mel for this bullshit argument.

there is no hypocrisy here. I quoted a poster who linked a video talking about this very subject. you should watch it. basically he doesn't believe his community is off limits, he believes there are certain things that are off limits because of how grotesque they were like concentration camps and lynchings.

 

[Slayven]

comedians that bring up PC holding back them feels like they are being lazy about knowing their audience and putting thought into their jokes and just want shield from their folks not liking their act.

It's a product, not scripture folks are allowed to be critical of it.

 

[royalan]

That's a good way to describe it. I should watch Bojack more.



I've watched almost everything he's made. He's outright saying that "PC GONE MAD" is some legit fucking thing but also thinks that his communities tragedies should be off-limits. It's hypocritical as all get out. Fuck Mel for this bullshit argument.

I think the problem with Mel's argument is that he attached his own viewpoint (which is understandable), to a pretty extreme and generalized statement of political correctness killing comedy, which opens him up to criticism.

The idea that racial/gender/sexual/etc sensitivity could possibly kill comedy is a bit absurd, and reads as "I want what was once funny to a majority of people to always be funny to a majority of people."

Sometimes, the rejection of certain themes as "comical" is a sign of societal progress. But that doesn't mean that comedy is dead. Just different.

 

[Thewonandonly]

I've heard some good ones. I'm probably going to hell.

Yup same some make me laugh my ass off, but damn I feel a little bad for laughing at them...

 

[Glass Rebel]

Whatever he was trying to say with his holocaust comment is going to be tainted by his hyperbolic comment about PC being the death of comedy. Context matters.

 

[Tubobutts]

I've watched almost everything he's made. He's outright saying that "PC GONE MAD" is some legit fucking thing but also thinks that his communities tragedies should be off-limits. It's hypocritical as all get out. Fuck Mel for this bullshit argument.

When did he say it should be off-limits? He said he personally won't joke about the holocaust. That's it.

 

[prag16]

comedians that bring up PC holding back them feels like they are being lazy about knowing their audience and putting thought into their jokes and just want shield from their folks not liking their act.

It's a product, not scripture folks are allowed to be critical of it.

Their complaint is something like this (bold emphasis added):

Yup same some make me laugh my ass off, but damn I feel a little bad for laughing at them...

They don't necessarily see audiences flat out not thinking jokes are funny anymore. They see the "PC mob" passing judgement on what people are and aren't allowed to laugh at (regardless of the quality of the comedy), and then shaming the masses as such. That's definitely a thing that happens.

 

[Ekai]

there is no hypocrisy here. I quoted a poster who linked a video talking about this very subject you should watch it. basically he doesn't believe his community is off limits, he believes there are certain things that are off limits because of how grotesque they were like concentration camps and lynchings.

I watched the clip. It starts with him saying he wouldn't target anything his people have gone through that was horrible. Then briefly mentions that he would only make fun of lynchings if one escapes them.

This still reeks of mostly hypocritical to me. Especially since PC GONE MAD is the argument usually used by right-wing fuckwads who are pissed off over minorities getting offended over their unfunny bullshit that targets them.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

There's a whole lot (if not most) of anti-pc people out there who are only anti-pc because they enjoy themselves/others punching down without consequence and/or just want to whine about people not being as big of twats as they about all sensitive subjects. (i.e that Jesse Waters fucker on Fox News)

The vast majority of these people aren't actual comedians though, and Mel Brooks certainly wasn't punching down.

It's tainted though.

 

[rezn0r]

When did he say it should be off-limits? He said he personally won't joke about the holocaust. That's it.

A lot of people are missing this.

 

[borghe]

I've watched almost everything he's made. He's outright saying that "PC GONE MAD" is some legit fucking thing but also thinks that his communities tragedies should be off-limits. It's hypocritical as all get out. Fuck Mel for this bullshit argument.

YOU are equating him to jewish/holocaust. If it was a non-jewish person saying this, your argument would fall flat.

which is ultimately the problem. he is saying "the holocaust is off limits." you are reading that as "the holocaust is off limits because I am jewish".

Though not a huge leap, that's still jumping to a conclusion that you have no basis for outside of assuming biased intent.

 

[Ekai]

I think the problem with Mel's argument is that he attached his own viewpoint (which is understandable), to a pretty extreme and generalized statement of political correctness killing comedy, which opens him up to criticism.

The idea that racial/gender/sexual/etc sensitivity could possibly kill comedy is a bit absurd, and reads as "I want what was once funny to a majority of people to always be funny to a majority of people."

Sometimes, the rejection of certain themes as "comical" is a sign of societal progress. But that doesn't mean that comedy is dead. Just different.

Agreed there.

 

[BstnRich]

Is it though?

Or is it the death of shitty, lazy comedy that is mostly just punching down?

 

[Ekai]

YOU are equating him to jewish/holocaust. If it was a non-jewish person saying this, your argument would fall flat.

which is ultimately the problem. he is saying "the holocaust is off limits." you are reading that as "the holocaust is off limits because I am jewish".

Though not a huge leap, that's still jumping to a conclusion that you have no basis for outside of assuming biased intent.

He's a jewish man who often makes jokes in context of being jewish himself saying that something his community went through is off-limits. But that everything else is and should be okay. It's hypocritical to go on that PC GONE MAD tirade and then say something like that. It's furthermore concerning to me that something like that he would have an issue with but is implied to now not have an issue with anything else (yes, the video mentions lynching but this more recent quote doesn't mention this whatsoever). Like, is he saying something like the Pulse Club Shooting is suddenly okay to make jokes about? Seriously.

Is it though?

Or is it the death of shitty, lazy comedy that is mostly just punching down?

Eeeee'yup.

 

[Ferulci]

For a true comic, nothing is out, everything is made fun of.

George Carlin is the prime example.

This. Guys like Louis C.K, (or for french fellows) Gaspard Proust,Desprogres/Coluche left nothing off the table.

 

[Always-honest]

Then don't exclude the holocaust and other stuff.

 

[aparisi2274]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rrect-society-death-comedy-warns-veteran/amp/



Well there you go, he won’t touch concentration camp jokes but everything is ok. Apparently it’s only pc gone mad if it doesn’t affect you personally.

Mel Brooks is 10000% right. This country is so absurdly PC that it’s not even funny anymore. Could you imagine the outrage if Brooks made Blazing Saddles in 2017? People would boycott, they’d start petitions, they’d call movie theaters to complain, and yet the movie is a god damn classic.

 

[legacyzero]

On topic of political correctness I'm always reminded of Patrice O'Neal interview where he tries to argue, in his own way, that there is never going to be a clear line that delineates between funny and unfunny. What further complicates this picture is everyone has their "thing", their sacred untouchable subject. But there ought to be room in a society for comedy to frequently cross the line. Here's the short video. Ignore the video title.

Serious topics can survive mockery.

Btw, Patrice was principled on the topic of comedians having free reign over any kind of jokes. Dude looked genuinely hurt when Amy Schumer made a brutal diabetes joke at Charlie Sheen's comedy roast. He was hurt but didn't call for Amy's head the next day arguing the joke was over the line. I couldn't find a clip of it but this is what she said:

"Patrice O'Neal, one of my favorite comics. Patrice has always been destined for stardom, and diabetes. So tonight is not just the roast of Charlie Sheen, it's also a farewell party for Patrice's foot"

What kills me about that video is Patrice being on FOX NEWS of all fucking things, defending comedy being open for all content and subjects.

FOX. FUCKING. NEWS. LOL

 

[phanphare]

I watched the clip. It starts with him saying he wouldn't target anything his people have gone through that was horrible. Then briefly mentions that he would only make fun of lynchings if one escapes them.

This still reeks of mostly hypocritical to me. Especially since PC GONE MAD is the argument usually used by right-wing fuckwads who are pissed off over minorities getting offended over their unfunny bullshit that targets them.

you clearly haven't seen most of his works then because he makes fun of the Spanish Inquisition in History of the World which was a something horrible that his people went through. so you are incorrect to say that "he wouldn't target anything his people have gone through that was horrible." in the video clip linked in my post he talks only about concentration camps in regards to his people and that's the only thing in regards to his people that he mention so you saying "anything" is quite the reach especially given the things he has joked about in his movies like the Spanish Inquisition. he then goes on to say that he wouldn't ever make fun of a black person getting lynched because it falls into the same category for him as concentration camps in that it is something that is so grotesque that it shouldn't really be joked about.

 

[Ekai]

Mel Brooks is 10000% right. This country is so absurdly PC that it’s not even funny anymore. Could you imagine the outrage if Brooks made Blazing Saddles in 2017? People would boycott, they’d start petitions, they’d call movie theaters to complain, and yet the movie is a god damn classic.

I don't see that. The movie plainly makes fun of racism. It's liberal use of the n word itself however has been in discussion pretty much since it came out.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Is it though?

Or is it the death of shitty, lazy comedy that is mostly just punching down?

Well done on calling some of the greatest comics of all time that fall under the shitty, lazy comedy. What a terrible comment.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

When did he say it should be off-limits? He said he personally won't joke about the holocaust. That's it.

I mean, he also has a problem with others doing such a thing as well, which is where his past criticisms of Life is Beautiful comes in.

He's not outright saying that they can't do it, but someone certainly tried (won an Academy Award), and he found it offensive. It sounds to me that it would be offensive to him no matter what

So basically, they shouldn't do it.

 

[BackLogJoe]

Mel Brooks is a comedy genius to me. I would trust him in whatever areas he wants to joke about because he knows how to use comedy to air the dirty laundry of the mainstream majority.

Blazing Saddles would never get made today. It's the opposite of PC from beginning to end. Ironically, the only people who call the movie racist are racist white people because they realize the movie is actually about stupid white males. It's amazing what Brooks did with that movie. He used every single racist stereotype and turned it into a scathing movie against white people.

So yeah, if he doesn't want to be PC, I'm fine with that because chances are when he isn't, he's really making fun of the majority view.

Now, other comedians, who aren't capable of the kind of thought processes that smart comedy requires, probably shouldn't be trying to tread those waters.

 

[psyfi]

eat a dick, mel

 

[Ekai]

you clearly haven't seen most of his works then because he makes fun of the Spanish Inquisition in History of the World which was a something horrible that his people went through. so you are incorrect to say that "he wouldn't target anything his people have gone through that was horrible." in the video clip linked in my post he talks only about concentration camps in regards to his people and that's the only thing in regards to his people that he mention so you saying "anything" is quite the reach especially given the things he has joked about in his movies like the Spanish Inquisition. he then goes on to say that he wouldn't ever make fun of a black person getting lynched because it falls into the same category for him as concentration camps in that it is something that is so grotesque that it shouldn't really be joked about.

I've seen and love History of the World Part 1. You are twisting things around to ignore what is plain and day and right there. He's outright saying that PC HAS GONE MAD and yet won't even commit fully to that bullshit argument when it comes to his own people.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Is it though?

Or is it the death of shitty, lazy comedy that is mostly just punching down?

Who is a good comedian to you?

 

[phanphare]

I've seen and love History of the World Part 1. You are twisting things around to ignore what is plain and day and right there. He's outright saying that PC HAS GONE MAD and yet won't even commit fully to that bullshit argument when it comes to his own people.

I twisted nothing, I quoted you accurately and countered your claim

 

[Ekai]

Well done on calling some of the greatest comics of all time that fall under the shitty, lazy comedy. What a terrible comment.

When did they imply anything like that? You think shock jocks and insult comics are geniuses? This just in, Jeff Dunham is the greatest comedian of all time. /s

I twisted nothing, I quoted you accurately and countered your claim

You twisted it entirely and are stretching really hard to ignore Brook's plain as day hypocrisy while he utilizes that bullshit PC GONE MAD right-wing garbage.

 

[Raiden]

Eh Louis CK makes fun of pretty much any topic that is considered sensitive and he is pretty popular.


You just gotta make it work.

 

[King Tubby]

Mel Brooks is 10000% right. This country is so absurdly PC that it’s not even funny anymore. Could you imagine the outrage if Brooks made Blazing Saddles in 2017? People would boycott, they’d start petitions, they’d call movie theaters to complain, and yet the movie is a god damn classic.

Blazing Saddles would never get made today. It's the opposite of PC from beginning to end. Ironically, the only people who call the movie racist are racist white people because they realize the movie is actually about stupid white males. It's amazing what Brooks did with that movie. He used every single racist stereotype and turned it into a scathing movie against white people.

Everyone keeps saying this and I think it's bullshit. Blazing Saddles could absolutely get made today. If a similar movie were being produced and Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock were attached as part of the writing staff (the same way Richard Pryor was part of the writing staff for Blazing Saddles) it would be highly anticipated.

 

[Slayven]

Get Out is the modern Blazing Saddles.

 

[Cyframe]

agree with many others, and Brooks.

Comedy is precisely the place to DEFUSE the hate, bigotry, etc.

His use of slurs and stereotypes in Blazing Saddles provides context into how truly idiotic and dim witted the villains are. Clevon Little's famous response to "two negroes" is a prime example "my mother is half Dutch"

PC is one way of attacking the problem. My only problem with PC is that while it's intended to be education, "This is why you don't say so-and-so", it often comes off as whining "dude you can't say that!!" Those are two very different statements.. and very rarely is PC viewed as the former.

Comedy is another way of attacking the problem. Take away the power of the word and it loses power for the groups that use it. Set in the mainstream mind set that people who use said words are ignorant, uneducated, etc.. people stop using it publicly..

That being said.. .comedy is such a fine line. Where does satire and critique end and abuse or inappropriateness begin? I suppose it comes down to intent.. but deriving intent is so subjective..

The thing is that everyone consuming comedy isn't well versed on the intricacies, intent, and effect of the material. So people are taking different things from it.

Chris Rock did stand up on Black people and n-words, and his point was about stereotypes but it reinforced anti-black sentiment so he stopped doing it.

So, when someone from a marginalized group doesn't like certain comedians because they can reinforce stereotypes or use slurs that children can emulate (South Park's infamous f word comes to mind) there are consequences.

Using racial slurs in a comedy or film doesn't really do anything to diffuse issues that are systematic at it their cores if a follow-up conversation can't be had because critique is seen as PC complaints. Comedy doesn't take away the power of racial slurs, imo.

 

[phanphare]

You twisted it entirely and are stretching really hard to ignore Brook's plain as day hypocrisy while he utilizes that bullshit PC GONE MAD right-wing garbage.

how? you said, and I quote again, "It starts with him saying he wouldn't target anything his people have gone through that was horrible" but like I already pointed out that is incorrect. he doesn't say he wouldn't target anything (key word) his people have gone through that was horrible. he only mentions concentration camps. that's a single thing that his people have been through and the Jewish people as a whole have gone through a ton of fucked up shit like, for instance, the Spanish Inquisition. which he has joked about. so again I say your claim is incorrect.

what did I twist?

 

[Kaban]

I would say I’ve felt more politically correct since Trump was put in office, and there are certainly some things I refuse to joke about, but I love Mel Brooks and think he’s a genius. I agree that nothing should be off-limits, but I also believe that politically incorrect jokes can be made as long as they’re tasteful, well-timed and actually funny... Blazing Saddles poked fun at slavery and had liberal use of the n-word, but the racists were always the butt of the joke.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

When did they imply anything like that? You think shock jocks and insult comics are geniuses? This just in, Jeff Dunham is the greatest comedian of all time. /s

I love when people bs to fit their narrative. You're right. Mel is clearly talking about shitty comics only and only those dudes when talking about the PC crowd. Not the people that would have an aneurysm if Carlin was alive today and they went to his show. Of course a legend like Mel is talking about only the hacks that get affected and not the greats.

Therefore the person's comment I quoted was clearly directed at only hacks.

It's nice when people purposely play dumb to make a point. We know who Mel is directing this towards, and that it encompasses great comics as well that get the shitstorm. So I have no idea why the guy you're speaking for would only target hacks,. Because if he was, it would make his comment completely pointless, irrelevant and dumb. And if he is also including the masters of comics would be affected in his post, then go back and read my last post

And the rise of Trump jokes! Yes! A new age of comedy has arisen!

the pinnacle of comedy lmao

 

[KillLaCam]

Kinda

 

[TheWorthyEdge]

Is it though?

Or is it the death of shitty, lazy comedy that is mostly just punching down?

And the rise of Trump jokes! Yes! A new age of comedy has arisen!

 

[SeanC]

It's all about context, the craft of the joke and punchline and the purpose for it to exist. There isn't a comedy writer, stand-up or actor that would disagree with the broad element of "Political Correctness is the enemy of comedy" - it's just that Mel's quote being selected here doesn't go into the nuance of it. Mel himself has, however, in other interviews and explained that position more as has his son, Max.

Mel himself doesn't do holocaust jokes or dead kids. He says specifically that's not his thing. He doesn't say others can't or shouldn't.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Louis CK has a good Schindler's List bit. That's like a holocaust joke by proxy.

Still love Flinstones List from Clerks: TAS.

 

[Zaphrynn]

In a world where Venture Bros and Louis CK exists, I don't think "PC Culture" is killing comedy. Lmao. And the Hateful Eight exists, and that features the N-word, a man punching a woman in the face, etc. Yeah it got criticism, but it also got made and was seen by a huge audience.

People bitching about PC shit tend to be people who are upset that their whiteness, maleness, or straightness/cisness is getting called out, and they boohoo feel bad. They're so used to their perspective being the norm and and not being made fun of because it isn't "haha different!" that when minorities try to criticize humor that directly effects them, these people whine and cry about everyone being so "sensitive" and getting "offended at everything". I think the great irony of George Carlin is that most of the idiots who bring him up in these convos don't actually understand his jokes and what makes them uniquely work.

People get offended at everything today? In a world where having a gay kiss in media has only just become barely acceptable? In a world where cartoons make pedophilia jokes on television? Give me a break.

Edit: I'm barely addressing what I think Mel's actual stance is here, because his "PC" stance just gets twisted by people who want to whine and cry about the PC Police.

 

[PersonAndStuff]

I actually generally agree with him. Unfortunately the general joke climate had been ruined by racists who don't know how to make a joke. They just say the n word and, if anyone calls them on it, they say it was a joke.

 

[Belfast]

The problem with these “pc gone mad” people is they just want the freedom to offend without any consequences and this is a classic example of it. Why complain about political correctness in comedy and then say this is off limits. He’s basically destroying his own argument. His tragedy is off limits but others shouldn’t be.

He didn't say it was off limits. He said it was off limits for him to personally joke about, not that other people couldn't.

Anyway, I personally feel all comedy is okay as long as it isn't punching down. Everyone needs to have the piss taken out of them once in awhile and comedy can serve the function as the great equalizer.

Blazing Saddles is amazingly un-PC, but it never forgets that it's main character comes from a marginalized people. Hell, that's the entire hook of the movie. The movie makes tons of black jokes, but makes its lead extremely smart and charismatic.

This is far different from, say, conservative work buddies passing around chain mail jokes about Obama being lynched.

 

[Surfinn]

Didn't Spaceballs have like.. Almost no non-PC language? That movie is hilarious

I don't remember anything crossing the line. It's just a funny movie

 

[Count Dookkake]

Why would anyone want to tell a holocaust joke?

To make others laugh.

 

[BackLogJoe]

Everyone keeps saying this and I think it's bullshit. Blazing Saddles could absolutely get made today. If a similar movie were being produced and Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock were attached as part of the writing staff (the same way Richard Pryor was part of the writing staff for Blazing Saddles) it would be highly anticipated.

I disagree. There's no white comic out there that could pitch Blazing Saddles to a studio today and get it greenlit. No matter who was attached as the writer.