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[Xando]

Chancellor Angela Merkel warned the EU Thursday it should not rely on "eternal" US support, as concern grows in Europe about Donald Trump's commitment to transatlantic ties.
Merkel, who faced a small protest by far-right supporters on a visit to Belgium, also told the European Union it must keep a united front in negotiations with Britain over its exit from the bloc.

"From the point of view of some of our traditional partners -- and I am thinking here as well about the transatlantic relations -- there is no eternal guarantee for a close cooperation with us Europeans," Merkel told an audience as she received an honorary university doctorate in Brussels.

Merkel said that "Europe is facing the biggest challenges for decades" with conflicts on its borders like that in Ukraine, but that it would be "naive always to rely on others who would solve the problems in our neigbourhood."

https://www.thelocal.de/20170113/me...not-guaranteed-week-before-trump-takes-office

German officials have been nervous about the Trump presidency since the election. And with Bannon now a major official for Trump while promoting right wing fake news here in Germany relations aren't really gonna get better.

 

[jelly]

EU Army I suppose.

I think once Britain gets the boot, they'll move forward quite fast in many fronts like that. I think if the EU gets through the next few years and remains together, they'll push onto something pretty decent.

 

[norinrad]

She just made the case for a European army. Good call is how i see it.

 

[Funky Papa]

I have no lost love for Merkel, but it's about time the EU starts talking about this issue in a serious manner.

It only took Trump and the most brazen interference in a few decades, but hey.

 

[ClosingADoor]

EU army is tricky business, but it is needed. Or at least an army between states that will fully cooperate. I can see some nations wanting to stay out, but others welcoming it. Integrated French + German army would be something.

 

[Staf]

I'm a Swede but i've always liked Merkel. I really want to see a EU-army. Fucking travesty we aren't part of NATO.

 

[Funky Papa]

EU army is tricky business, but it is needed. Or at least an army between states that will fully cooperate. I can see some nations wanting to stay out, but others welcoming in. Integrated French + German army would be something.

I can totally see France and Germany integrating to a degree, plus Italy and Spain doing the same*. The biggest issue here would probably be France's interest in Africa.

*Edit: Or not, given procurement politics. That may be a wild shot.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

EU army is tricky business, but it is needed. Or at least an army between states that will fully cooperate. I can see some nations wanting to stay out, but others welcoming it. Integrated French + German army would be something.

Sweden and Finland probably will be in 100% just because it gives another excuse not to join Nato.

 

[Xando]

EU Army I suppose.

I think once Britain gets the boot, they'll move forward quite fast in many fronts like that. I think if the EU gets through the next few years and remains together, they'll push onto something pretty decent.

She just made the case for a European army. Good call is how i see it.

I sure hope they finally get the EU army together once the british are gone.
Merging EU armies would easily be able to deter russia from any kind of conflict while probably also be a bit cheaper than everyone having their own armies.

I can totally see France and Germany integrating to a degree, plus Italy and Spain doing the same*. The biggest issue here would probably be France's interest in Africa.

Edit: Or not, given procurement politics. That may be a wild shot.

Germany has just recently updated their troop numbers for Mali to 1000. Don't think it would be much of a issue.

 

[Fat4all]

I can totally see France and Germany integrating to a degree, plus Italy and Spain doing the same*. The biggest issue here would probably be France's interest in Africa.

Edit: Or not, given procurement politics. That may be a wild shot.

Man.

How far we've come since WW1. Shit's getting very real, in a sense.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

EU Army I suppose.

I think once Britain gets the boot, they'll move forward quite fast in many fronts like that. I think if the EU gets through the next few years and remains together, they'll push onto something pretty decent.

Maybe. A large problem for Britain was that European military intelligence is seen as not so reliable so closer integration would harm intelligence sharing with the US as they don't want to inherit the risk. But the main thing really stopping it is that the US don't want it to happen and would use the UK to block it. A weak bungling US administration and brexit might let it slip through.

Man.

How far we've come since WW1. Shit's getting very real, in a sense.

Germany has basically conquered conquered Europe with finance and industry in a way they couldn't with war.

 

[Kabouter]

Germany has basically conquered conquered Europe with finance and industry in a way they couldn't with war.

Would you really call this conquest? Pretty much all the conquerors who tried to unite Europe militarily would consider the very nature of a unified EU their worst nightmare.

 

[norinrad]

I have no lost love for Merkel, but it's about time the EU starts talking about this issue in a serious manner.

It only took Trump and the most brazen interference in a few decades, but hey.

My main concern with such an army is we do not end up like Yugoslavia. An army like that should not be centralized ie one country being the all out command center. Europe is not like the US where they speak one language and sort of have one culture.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

EU Army I suppose.

I think once Britain gets the boot, they'll move forward quite fast in many fronts like that. I think if the EU gets through the next few years and remains together, they'll push onto something pretty decent.

lol perhaps a slight mischaracterisation of what's happening?

Also I don't think the UK was the only inhibitor on many of these "fronts". The loudest voice perhaps, but plenty of countries have their reservations about the speed and scope of integration.

 

[Xando]

It seems the EU has to fight anti EU influence from east and west now.


Trump officials ask which country will be next to exit EU

In a call with EU leadership, Trump transition officials asked which country would be next to leave the bloc, the departing U.S. ambassador to the EU, Anthony Gardner, said Friday. He suggested the call pointed to a Euroskeptic outlook within the new administration.

Gardner, meeting with reporters just days before his departure from his post on orders from President-elect Donald Trump, said the question from the incoming administration was “reflective of the perception” of the EU — an impression that Gardner said was wrong and contrary to American interests. He was not on the call himself but heard about the exchange from EU officials.

 

[norinrad]

EU Army I suppose.

I think once Britain gets the boot, they'll move forward quite fast in many fronts like that. I think if the EU gets through the next few years and remains together, they'll push onto something pretty decent.

Hehehehehehe you don't know much about European history do you? They maybe out but they are not out.

 

[Funky Papa]

It seems the EU has to fight anti EU influence from east and west now.


Trump officials ask which country will be next to exit EU

At this point I'm not sure if that's a Trumpian faux pass or actual mind games. Either way, European diplomats are going to hate the next few years.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Would you really call this conquest? Pretty much all the conquerors who tried to unite Europe militarily would consider the very nature of a unified EU their worst nightmare.

I'm not using the word conquest in the literal term exactly. I can't think of a way of explaining the expansion and consolidation of power and influence without using fancy terms like conquest or empire. The great war mongers of Europe tended to be fans of the Roman empire. The Romans preferred to expand their influence without war, I think, as long as the wealth flowed into the centre.

 

[lazygecko]

How would a EU army function and overlap with existing EU NATO members? If you were a part of the EU army but not a member of NATO, wouldn't that for all intents and purposes make you a part of NATO as well?

 

[mnz]

I can't think of a way of explaining the expansion and consolidation of power and influence without using fancy terms like conquest or empire.

A union.

How would a EU army function and overlap with existing EU NATO members? If you were a part of the EU army but not a member of NATO, wouldn't that for all intents and purposes make you a part of NATO as well?

We have EU missions already that do exactly that. The biggest one right now in Mali: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUTM_Mali

 

[Uzzy]

Time to expand Eurocorps? Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Good.
Better that than just buckling up in front of that piece of shit.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

A union.

Well the united kingdom is a union but that has not historically been always accepted as being a fair and equal sharing of power. England, or even just London, being the heaviest hitter in the union and the home of parliament has been controversial. The EU is way more complicated than that even.

 

[michaelius]

20 years too late - they were underspending on army budgets for years

 

[mnz]

Well the united kingdom is a union but that has not historically been always accepted as being a fair and equal sharing of power. England, or even just London, being the heaviest hitter in the union and the home of parliament has been controversial. The EU is way more complicated than that even.

I think that describes the EU perfectly.

Time to expand Eurocorps? Sounds like a good plan.

That image takes minutes to load.

 

[Zushin]

I wish Australia had this kind of thinking as well and stopped relying on the US so much. Gotta be in that sweet nuclear umbrella though.

 

[dalyr95]

It makes me laugh when people say the EU Army will save Europe. The only EU memebers not part of NATO are Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta and Sweden. Hardly makes up for the lack of the UK & US.

The problem is the only military heavyweights in the EU are the UK & France. Most NATO members don't spend the required 2% of GDP on defence and their militaries are sub par.

All the EU Army will do is dupilicate command centres at the expense of NATO.

 

[kmfdmpig]

It seems the EU has to fight anti EU influence from east and west now.


Trump officials ask which country will be next to exit EU

That actually seems like a fairly reasonable question to me. In the run-up and aftermath of Brexit there was quite a bit of speculation about other countries leaving in the future.

It may not be kind to ask that question, but it's a valid question and better that the EU consider something unappealing than keep their head in the sand regarding the potential that another country may one day want to leave.

 

[ClosingADoor]

How would a EU army function and overlap with existing EU NATO members? If you were a part of the EU army but not a member of NATO, wouldn't that for all intents and purposes make you a part of NATO as well?

The EU army would probably be an army under a central EU command (switching leadership every so often between countries like we do with other EU stuff also) and nations contribute through personnel, funds, material, etc. Next to that they will have their own armies still under their own command of course.

 

[Kabouter]

I'm not using the word conquest in the literal term exactly. I can't think of a way of explaining the expansion and consolidation of power and influence without using fancy terms like conquest or empire. The great war mongers of Europe tended to be fans of the Roman empire. The Romans preferred to expand their influence without war, I think, as long as the wealth flowed into the centre.

You think wrong. Rome was definitely all about war, it was constantly glorified and pursued. It's also why European (and some Eurasian) conquerors were such big fans.

And you don't need to explain it through comparison, there is no real historical equivalent to what the EU is. That's why it is such a significant development, the peaceful coming together of different nations is completely at odds with European history. As is the acceptance and even embrace of its disparate cultures and languages.

 

[fantomena]

So glad m country isn't in the EU. Antidemocratic project.

 

[Drazgul]

Sweden and Finland probably will be in 100% just because it gives another excuse not to join Nato.

I'd rather Finland joined NATO - if current EU issues have proven anything, it's that european countries just aren't united enough not to try and weasel out of shared burdens when the time comes. While Finland still tried (and managed quite well, despite all the downsizing and bullshit like Ottawa mine treaty) to keep up its defence forces as a proper deterrent, other countries in Europe really dropped the ball with theirs - it'll take lots of time before that mistake can be corrected, and distancing Europe from US & NATO now would be a terrible mistake.

Strengthen NATO, and forget this nonsense about EU army.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So glad m country isn't in the EU. Antidemocratic project.

Damn anti-democratic stuff, where we all elect our own leaders who then lead the EU, and we vote for the EU parliament also.

What is anti-democratic about the EU again?

 

[Xando]

That actually seems like a fairly reasonable question to me. In the run-up and aftermath of Brexit there was quite a bit of speculation about other countries leaving in the future.

Interesting enough i only read this kind of speculation in American and UK media.

Fact is that after the shitshow that Brexit is EU popularity has grown in every of the 28 (even in the UK) countries and is in some countries at an all time high.

 

[Zips]

And visible cracks start to show in NATO...Merkel is floating the EU army idea as a potential response to Trump and his attitude towards the NATO alliance.

To serve Putin, Trump just needs to take one or more of those cracks and turn them into a fissure.

 

[Carl2291]

Damn anti-democratic stuff, where we all elect our own leaders who then lead the EU, and we vote for the EU parliament also.

What is anti-democratic about the EU again?

Will the European people get a vote on this EU army?

 

[mnz]

It makes me laugh when people say the EU Army will save Europe. The only EU memebers not part of NATO are Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta and Sweden. Hardly makes up for the lack of the UK & US.

The problem is the only military heavyweights in the EU are the UK & France. Most NATO members don't spend the required 2% of GDP on defence and their militaries are sub par.

All the EU Army will do is dupilicate command centres at the expense of NATO.

It's much more than that. What we have now are many small armies with different organisational structures and amounts of cooperation. That's not the same as one big entity. France especially has a philosophy of national independence.

If you actually start combining them, even just parts of them, their power will increase tremendously. Just think of combined R&D efforts, production capabilities, logistics, nuclear capabilities and the optimization of scale of all parts of the military. It's a whole 'nother level of power projection.
In a way it's a scary thought, because it's almost like a new world power.

 

[Xando]

Will the European people get a vote on this EU army?

Do you vote on your Army leader in national elections?

 

[Vhalyar]

So glad m country isn't in the EU. Antidemocratic project.

... well? Do elaborate. And where are you from?

 

[nature boy]

Expect American influence to significantly diminish in the next 4 years. Europeans HATED BUSH, but Trump is on another level.

So glad m country isn't in the EU. Antidemocratic project.

Learn up on the EU before you make that statement.

 

[Keasar]

Will the European people get a vote on this EU army?

People get to vote on their own armies? Didn't know we had that option.

So glad m country isn't in the EU. Antidemocratic project.

Please elaborate, it's not like we vote our representatives in the EU, or that we vote our laws to follow from the EU. We Swedes voted no to the Euro, guess the Kronor we use today are just Euros in disguise since we didn't have a choice.

 

[mnz]

Will the European people get a vote on this EU army?

Yes? Vote for a party that doesn't support it.

 

[PdotMichael]

A sufficient EU army with a purely defensive nature wouldn't cost a lot.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

You think wrong. Rome was definitely all about war, it was constantly glorified and pursued. It's also why European (and some Eurasian) conquerors were such big fans.

And you don't need to explain it through comparison, there is no real historical equivalent to what the EU is. That's why it is such a significant development, the peaceful coming together of different nations is completely at odds with European history. As is the acceptance and even embrace of its disparate cultures and languages.

It was not all about war. There was a lot of war and war was glorified but it was a large civil society where extending citizenship and integration was a large part of it's success. Every school child knows that a large factor of the success of the Roman empire was it's road building.

 

[nature boy]

Will the European people get a vote on this EU army?

Each country has a veto.

 

[Kabouter]

It was not all about war. There was a lot of war and war was glorified but it was a large civil society where extending citizenship and integration was a large part of it's success. Every school child knows that a large factor of the success of the Roman empire was it's road building.

The aim of Rome's excellent roads was, above all else, to facilitate movement of the military.

 

[kmfdmpig]

It's much more than that. What we have now are many small armies with different organisational structures and amounts of cooperation. That's not the same as one big entity. France especially has a philosophy of national independence.

If you actually start combining them, even just parts of them, their power will increase tremendously. Just think of combined R&D efforts, logistics, nuclear capabilities and the optimization of scale of all parts of the military. It's a whole 'nother level of power projection.
In a way it's a scary thought, because it's almost like a new world power

Combining efforts would be logical, but I suspect that there would be resistance to doing so. Sweden and France may not be willing to give up their homemade production of aircraft, for example, to contribute to an expanded joint Eurofighter project. Even in the US the state by state politics of jobs plays a role in procurement. I suspect that will be difficult to overcome when national economies are involved, particularly as both Sweden and France have a goal of exporting some planes as well.

 

[Funky Papa]

A sufficient EU army with a purely defensive nature wouldn't cost a lot.

Fervorous atlanticists (not a friend of them) tend to ignore the massive synergies that would bring the combined purchasing power and R&D capabilities of a common European army. Even a few countries banding together would make a huge difference.

 

[Keasar]

Fervorous atlanticists (not a friend of them) tend to ignore the massive synergies that would bring the combined purchasing power and R&D capabilities of a common European army. Even a few countries banding together would make a huge difference.

Not to mention the capabilities of such a army with shared research and technology.

 

[Carl2291]

Each country has a veto.

As long as it comes to that.