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[Croyles]

Growing up post Cold War I didn't learn a lot about Russia coming through school. Is anyone here versed in Russian culture? I've always been confused as to why they're so hostile to the rest of Europe.

This youtube video does a good job of at least partially explaining it.
Russia has had a hard history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6rSljTwdU

Its been a while since I watched it. It probably skirts over many of russias self initiated invasions, but the difficult to defend landmass leading to a certain mindset is at least an interesting concept.

 

[Halph n Halph]

Not all EU members are part of NATO

That's makes things even worse . It could open up the possibility , however remote ,that a country, if it honoured its commitments to both alliances could theoretically go to war with itself.

 

[mnz]

That's makes things even worse . It could open up the possibility , however remote ,that a country, if it honoured its commitments to both alliances could theoretically go to war with itself.

Yeah, sure...

 

[tuxfool]

That's makes things even worse . It could open up the possibility , however remote ,that a country, if it honoured its commitments to both alliances could theoretically go to war with itself.

Pretty sure that there are provisions for that situation. These things would be considered when drawing up treaties.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

German industry is absolutely the strongest overall industrial economy in Europe. But their financial system is a shambles. The German three pillar banking system is weak - the international / private banks are Deutsche and Commerzbank, both badly run with tiny market capitalisations, and the Landesbanken are ineffective and unprofitable. The savings banks are pretty good at serving their customers.

The German financial system in no sense has conquered Europe, and actually is always getting bailed out by the ECB (the Landesbanken held loads of Greek bonds, Irish bonds, etc).

The Euro is basically an expansion of the Deutsche Mark to new territory because of German industry. Politically Germany is in a good position to dominate financial policy. Banks are seemingly borderline above national concerns anyway so I was thinking more of central policy and the real economy not financial speculation or real estate. You can see the mechanism of power in cases such as the Greek crisis where German politics drives the response. They basically used Greece as a whip to beat France and Italy and to submission with.

 

[trembli0s]

To add to that, Israeli media is reporting that the American intelligence community warned Israel's that Trump's government is not to be trusted as it may leak information to Russia, meaning that it could find its way to Syria and Iran.

US intel sources warn Israel against sharing secrets with Trump administration.

The damage to America's international prestige is already significant. Allies remained close to America even during the worst of the George W. Bush administration, but there's a real chance that they may look for new alliances given the increasing chance of America turning into an unreliable partner. In a way, Putin is already winning. It's now up to the EU to ensure that this situation doesn't result in Russia increasing its influence in the region.

The more realistic question to ask is whether EU members will sacrifice money that would normally be spent within the country in order to boost military spending to more appropriate levels.

My confidence in that is very, very low.

 

[kingkaiser]

A unified European army could very easily rise into the strongest military force on this planet. The picture of two nationalists like Putin and Trump who might have accidentally awaken a sleeping giant is kind of amusing.

 

[CoolOff]

A unified European army could very easily rise into the strongest military force on this planet. The picture of two nationalists like Putin and Trump who might have accidentally awaken a sleeping giant is kind of amusing.

Nah, US military spending is light years ahead and will remain so for the foreseeable future. You won't reach the equivalent of 17 aircraft carriers in decades even if all of EU suddenly went full on arms race.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

A unified European army could very easily rise into the strongest military force on this planet. The picture of two nationalists like Putin and Trump who might have accidentally awaken a sleeping giant is kind of amusing.

Have you seen how much money the US dumps into it's military?

 

[Frankfurter]

The Euro is basically an expansion of the Deutsche Mark to new territory because of German industry. Politically Germany is in a good position to dominate financial policy. Banks are seemingly borderline above national concerns anyway so I was thinking more of central policy and the real economy not financial speculation or real estate. You can see the mechanism of power in cases such as the Greek crisis where German politics drives the response. They basically used Greece as a whip to beat France and Italy and to submission with.

It's pretty frustrating that a Germany that has proven that it is immensely invested into the European project over the past 60 years is seen like this. Hopefully, your opinion is one of a very tiny minority.

Btw. both French and German banks were heavily invested into Greek bonds. If anything, it was a German/French joint operation.

 

[Ardenyal]

Have you seen how much money the US dumps into it's military?

US to attack europe when?

 

[mnz]

It's pretty frustrating that a Germany that has proven that it is immensely invested into the European project over the past 60 years is seen like this. Hopefully, your opinion is one of a very tiny minority.

Btw. both French and German banks were heavily invested into Greek bonds. If anything, it was a German/French joint operation.

It's also kind of a joke looking at how the ECB is currently run, which would never have happened with the DM.
And people forgot all the way more strict voices of several other countries during the debt crisis, too.

There are populists on all sides.

 

[norinrad]

It's not surprising that Merkel would dislike Trump, but this is a terrible article. It makes fairly detailed claims about what Merkel thinks without quotes, 2nd hand sources, or even circumstantial evidence.

Like this:


This is pure tabloid.

Even so, Mitt went in like a lost kid looking for acceptance. The article is pretty accurate.

Growing up post Cold War I didn't learn a lot about Russia coming through school. Is anyone here versed in Russian culture? I've always been confused as to why they're so hostile to the rest of Europe.

Have you seen Jean Claude Van Damme's Cyborg?

 

[Drifters]

Merkel is about as relevant as Obama at this point.

 

[Halph n Halph]

Pretty sure that there are provisions for that situation. These things would be considered when drawing up treaties.

Yeah, sure...

Tbh I was half joking to highlight the complications involved as far as remaining a NATO member while forming another alliance.
I think politically one or the other would be the only option.

 

[Xe4]

Good. The EU needs a standing army. It's not going to happen right away, but they need to stop relying so heavily on the US, for obvious reasons due to our soon to be president.

 

[norinrad]

The Euro is basically an expansion of the Deutsche Mark to new territory because of German industry. Politically Germany is in a good position to dominate financial policy. Banks are seemingly borderline above national concerns anyway so I was thinking more of central policy and the real economy not financial speculation or real estate. You can see the mechanism of power in cases such as the Greek crisis where German politics drives the response. They basically used Greece as a whip to beat France and Italy and to submission with.

Thatcher initially was against a unified Germany for those reasons, the French thought they could control a unified Germany by luring them into the EU project.

There's a blade runner anology in there somewhere.

 

[kingkaiser]

Merkel is about as relevant as Obama at this point.

There is no term limit here in Germany, so nothing could be further from the truth than your assumption.

 

[Drifters]

There is no term limit here in Germany, so nothing could be further from the truth than your assumption.

I'm not talking term limits, I'm talking influence or power to make decisions.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It's pretty frustrating that a Germany that has proven that it is immensely invested into the European project over the past 60 years is seen like this. Hopefully, your opinion is one of a very tiny minority.

No doubt it is a very tiny minority opinion among people who are immensely emotionally invested into the European project. But essentially the main problems are the globalised economy and neoliberalism. Germany are just relative winners. Although globalism never solves it's crisis and only moves the crisis from place to place. So Germany might get it's turn on that carousel again.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

US, UK, Russia, Turkey. The new Axis.

Germany at the core of the new Allies.


What a fucking world we live in.

 

[Barajas_201]

I hope this EU army and closer union succeeds. It would provide an excellent blueprint for other regions like Latin America for example.

 

[anonymous_abc]

I'm not talking term limits, I'm talking influence or power to make decisions.

?

So currently who exactly has more power over policy and direction in Europe then?

 

[Metroxed]

All of these replies seem to be under the impression that the EU is a country...

I know full well the EU is not a country, I'm from there myself. I was addressing the argument that the EU does not ask the people before taking any decissions, people who say that tend to forget that:

a) The EU council is made up by the representatives of the democratically elected governments of the national states. You do vote who goes to the EU council by voting during the general elections. You do choose who represents your country's interests in the EU.

b) The European Parliament is democratically elected.

While I would support the decision of having a referendum on this and on many other topics, acting as if no one is asked anything and the EU is a completely undemocratic body is uninformed at best.

If you don't support the idea of an EU army or further European integration, vote for like-minded political parties in the general elections of your country. If they have enough support to form a government they will send their like-minded representatives to the EU council and block the process. But don't complain about not being asked without knowing how the EU works.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Be careful what you wish for, Merkel. If Trump delivers you to Putin or or they agree on pre - Berlin wall spheres of influence Germany is going to be in a big trouble. All that political capital down the drain.

Thatcher initially was against a unified Germany for those reasons, the French thought they could control a unified Germany by luring them into the EU project.

There's a blade runner anology in there somewhere.

The only reason unified Germany exists was because the Russians wanted an anti - Atlantic core to be formed by Germany and France in Europe. UK was naturally against, but they couldn't do absolutely anything about it.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Be careful what you wish for, Merkel. If Trump delivers you to Putin or or they agree on pre - Berlin wall spheres of influence Germany is going to be in a big trouble. All that political capital down the drain.

wut?

You honestly believe the two cold war superpowers can now just decide to carve up Europe between themselves (again)?

 

[BennyBlanco]

US, UK, Russia, Turkey. The new Axis.

Germany at the core of the new Allies.


What a fucking world we live in.

What a nonsensical post. Which one of these countries is Nazi Germany here?

 

[Lagspike_exe]

wut?

You honestly believe the two cold war superpowers can now just decide to carve up Europe between themselves (again)?

Where have you been living since... The start of history? USA and Russian military and intelligence capabilities outperform the rest of the world combined. It wasn't that long ago when Carter and Breznyev were making interest sphere deals.

 

[Pizza con salsiccia]

Be careful what you wish for, Merkel. If Trump delivers you to Putin or or they agree on pre - Berlin wall spheres of influence Germany is going to be in a big trouble. All that political capital down the drain.



The only reason unified Germany exists was because the Russians wanted an anti - Atlantic core to be formed by Germany and France in Europe. UK was naturally against, but they couldn't do absolutely anything about it.

Wow, so much bullshit in so few words. Impressive.

Both the bit about going back to pre-Berlin wall spheres of influence and the "only reason unified Germany exists."

I don't know what kind of drugs you're on, but you should stop taking them, my friend.

 

[mnz]

Be careful what you wish for, Merkel. If Trump delivers you to Putin or or they agree on pre - Berlin wall spheres of influence Germany is going to be in a big trouble. All that political capital down the drain.



The only reason unified Germany exists was because the Russians wanted an anti - Atlantic core to be formed by Germany and France in Europe. UK was naturally against, but they couldn't do absolutely anything about it.

This is some condensed BS, damn.

 

[anonymous_abc]

The only reason unified Germany exists was because the Russians wanted an anti - Atlantic core to be formed by Germany and France in Europe. UK was naturally against, but they couldn't do absolutely anything about it.

Haha, your post is getting better and better.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Considering Germany once almost conquered Europe

My money is on them.

But if there is some fuckery, and the US and Russia team up against Europe..

 

[Funky Papa]

Where have you been living since... The start of history? USA and Russian military and intelligence capabilities outperform the rest of the world combined. It wasn't that long ago when Carter and Breznyev were making interest sphere deals.

I know this doesn't suit your worldview, but you are living in some wacky alt-history universe if you think that America's influence is remotely as important as it was during that era and that EU would abandon common policies, strategies and aspirations just because some foreign power tells them so.

Obama couldn't even get the TTIP to pass and now we are talking about Trump and Putin DP'ing the EU because America and Russia stronk. Tanks would have to roll across the Fulda Gap for that.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

This is some condensed BS, damn.

Excellent arguments there.

Considering Germany once almost conquered Europe

My money is on them.

But if there is some fuckery, and the US and Russia team up against Europe..

Germany has 2 strikes on its record (WWI and WWII). Last time they avoided complete deindustrialization and a complete destruction of their economy post WWII because the Western Alies wanted a counter to USSR's influence in Western Europe. Strike 3 could be out for Germany this time for real. No one forgot WWII and what happened back then.

I know this doesn't suit your worldview, but you are living in some wacky alt-history universe if you think that America's influence is remotely as important as it was during that era and that EU would abandon common policies, strategies and aspirations just because some foreign power tells them so.

Obama couldn't even get the TTIP to pass and now we are talking about Trump and Putin DP'ing the EU because America and Russia stronk. Tanks would have to roll across the Fulda Gap for that.

Unfortunately for your arguments, if the EU actually claimed sovereignty in any shape or form it would not have US troops and nukes on its ground. And Germany as the industrial base would have 0 USA troops, tanks, troops or drone bases. As history showed us, the most important issues are solved by blood and iron, as Bizmark once said. EU has 0 sovereignty as long as NATO exists.

 

[VDenter]

The notion that the EU is undemocratic is laughable , somehow despite it being 2017 this meme refuses to die. Personally if it ever came to it i have far more trust in a united army of Europe than NATO. Finland not joining NATO was one of the best decisions it has ever made as far as i"m concerned.

 

[mnz]

Excellent arguments there.

I mean, I can't give you a 100 year history lesson here, you are out of your mind.

 

[Frankfurter]

Excellent arguments there.



Germany has 2 strikes on its record (WWI and WWII). Last time they avoided complete deindustrialization and a complete destruction of their economy post WWII because the Western Alies wanted a counter to USSR's influence in Western Europe. Strike 3 could be out for Germany this time for real. No one forgot WWII and what happened back then.




Unfortunately for your arguments, if the EU actually claimed sovereignty in any shape or form it would not have US troops and nukes on its ground. And Germany as the industrial base would have 0 USA troops, tanks, troops or drone bases. As history showed us, the most important issues are solved by blood and iron, as Bizmark once said. EU has 0 sovereignty as long as NATO exists.

There is no way to counter your dreamworld with arguments.

 

[KillerMan91]

Where have you been living since... The start of history? USA and Russian military and intelligence capabilities outperform the rest of the world combined. It wasn't that long ago when Carter and Breznyev were making interest sphere deals.

I swear some people still live in the world were Russia is some kind of huge global superpower like USSR. Their economy matches Italy in size (with over double the population) and even Germany alone could counter their military strenght if they actually spent some money on it. Even with current budgets France/Germany alliance alone would be enough to counter Russia in Europe easily.

 

[BigBeauford]

This thread reminds me of a "my dad can beat up your dad" argument.

 

[avaya]

Merkel is de facto leader of the free world at the moment. Even when proto-Hitler becomes President she will still be.

Unfortunately for your arguments, if the EU actually claimed sovereignty in any shape or form it would not have US troops and nukes on its ground. And Germany as the industrial base would have 0 USA troops, tanks, troops or drone bases. As history showed us, the most important issues are solved by blood and iron, as Bizmark once said. EU has 0 sovereignty as long as NATO exists.

It's a good thing the French have their own nukes then. Your post is pure fantasy. Trump is going to be hobbled by his own intelligence services who are not going to become lick spittles for Putin.

 

[EloKa]

Be careful what you wish for, Merkel. If Trump delivers you to Putin or or they agree on pre - Berlin wall spheres of influence Germany is going to be in a big trouble. All that political capital down the drain.

did you realize at some point that games aren't reality?

The only reason unified Germany exists was because the Russians wanted an anti - Atlantic core to be formed by Germany and France in Europe. UK was naturally against, but they couldn't do absolutely anything about it.

This is terribly wrong on many levels.

Germany has 2 strikes on its record (WWI and WWII). Last time they avoided complete deindustrialization and a complete destruction of their economy post WWII because the Western Alies wanted a counter to USSR's influence in Western Europe. Strike 3 could be out for Germany this time for real. No one forgot WWII and what happened back then.

I guess you missed the point where you should have realized that games aren't reality.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Good, I've lost most of the faith I have in my own country to help make the world a better place. The EU is the work in progress vision of what the world should be striving to emulate. Why shouldn't it be a preeminent world power?

Well, the last time that happened wasn't exactly a crowning success, and led to most of the problems the west is still facing.
Granted, Europe wasn't in a union then.

Germany has 2 strikes on its record (WWI and WWII). Last time they avoided complete deindustrialization and a complete destruction of their economy post WWII because the Western Alies wanted a counter to USSR's influence in Western Europe. Strike 3 could be out for Germany this time for real. No one forgot WWII and what happened back then.

You apparently forgot the tiny little bit about not wanting a WW3, which led to the decision to not repeat the mistake of WWI peace treaty.
But even then, what exactly would you suggest should happen to Germany? Simply for the US to annex them? Given the fantasy world you live in, I'd guess that'd be it?

Unfortunately for your arguments, if the EU actually claimed sovereignty in any shape or form it would not have US troops and nukes on its ground. And Germany as the industrial base would have 0 USA troops, tanks, troops or drone bases. As history showed us, the most important issues are solved by blood and iron, as Bizmark once said. EU has 0 sovereignty as long as NATO exists.

What does this even remotely have to do with what you're replying to?

On topic: while I'd welcome a stronger EU military collaboration, lots of the common projects (e.g. Eurofighter, that transport helicopter and so on) were utter failures IIRC, both on costs/delivery time and performance, so...

 

[Abounder]

All the American spying, wars, and recessions should inspire the EU to be more independent...especially with goddamn Trump on the horizon

 

[johancruijff]

Considering Germany once almost conquered Europe

My money is on them.

But if there is some fuckery, and the US and Russia team up against Europe..

If you have to bet, just wait until Italy pick a side and bet on the other one

 

[Frankfurter]

If you have to bet, just wait until Italy pick a side and bet on the other one

Technically speaking they were on the winning side in WW1, though.

 

[mkenyon]

This youtube video does a good job of at least partially explaining it.
Russia has had a hard history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6rSljTwdU

Its been a while since I watched it. It probably skirts over many of russias self initiated invasions, but the difficult to defend landmass leading to a certain mindset is at least an interesting concept.

Went through a couple of these videos this morning, great stuff, thank you for linking it!

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Hopefully the EU can become more unified and be a real world player. There is a real potential for success here.

 

[Pomerlaw]

The only reason unified Germany exists was because the Russians wanted an anti - Atlantic core to be formed by Germany and France in Europe.

Go read a book.

 

[maniac-kun]

If something serious would happen at the moment we would be in a bad shape.

 

[Joni]

It will be important to shore up the EU strength if we don't want to be pointless in thirty years. Start a better integration, start a path for almost full autonomy including an end to energy dependency to Russia and start building up more industrial capabilities in the east.