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"Metroid 1.5" - Retro Studios rejected Metroid game

Damn.

There really needs to be a book or video series which highlights canceled projects or deeply hidden concepts/levels/etc in games. Unseen64 is cool, but I'd like to go deeper.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
Uh. That's... uh.

So I guess that's one of the "Retro pitched Samus as a bounty hunter catching criminals and Nintendo said no" proposals.


Suddenly I understand that it might not have just been Nintendo being obstinate.


EDIT: Don't get me wrong here, but this involves Retro doing multiplayer and doing human environments with people in them, and as cool as the art design would have been, the idea of Retro doing stealth nightclub sections in first person in Metroid sounds like a recipe for disaster.

It sounds kinda cool, actually. Like Jango Fett Bounty Hunter for Xbox, except maybe good. It's not metroid, but at this point I'd rather have a good game that features Samus and Metroid designs. Better than having a bad metroid and a bad metroid in one package. Well, that extends down to Hunters on the DS.

Example: Metroid Pinball
 

Azure J

Member
Honestly, someone needs to wholesale rip that powerup idea into a new game like now. Oh my fuck, that is brilliant.

Edit: I also loved the notation on cranking the morph ball puzzles up to 11 in that concept. That guy influenced Echoes in such an awesome way. =)
 

Thaedolus

Member
Dark Octave said:
Sounds like they tried to make Metroid into a psychological thriller/horror type of game.

Bioshock and Silent Hill in the future. Babies and killers and other creepy things.

I dunno but this sounds fuck awesome. I think the best parts of Metroid are when it's scary as shit.
 
SalsaShark said:
Nightclubs in Metroid ?

Like.. Space Pirates having some drinks and dancing ?

Spin off multiplayer mode. They all sound very very silly.

The single player mode is where its at. That sounds like it had real potential to be unsettling.
 

-Eddman-

Member
SalsaShark said:
Nightclubs in Metroid ?

Like.. Space Pirates having some drinks and dancing ?

Probably like the cantina at Mos Eisley or KOTOR, filled with fights and big, bad dudes from space.
 

Ranger X

Member
I dunno what's the problem with Metroid. God damnit Nintendo.

Metroid NEEDS to go the NSMBWii route. Take Super Metroid, copy, paste, new graphics, change layout, think about a couple new power-up, focus on great level design.

This is so easy I could cry. :(
 
Nice find. Of course, it sounds nothing like Metroid imo, and I'm glad they didn't make it. It seems like more of a random mish-mash of other sci-fi games/movies (although I had similar feelings about Corruption). It would be interesting to see Retro tackle something like this as a new IP though, which is what I'd like to see from them at this point anyhow.
 

gdt

Member
Ranger X said:
I dunno what's the problem with Metroid. God damnit Nintendo.

Metroid NEEDS to go the NSMBWii route. Take Super Metroid, copy, paste, new graphics, change layout, think about a couple new power-up, focus on great level design.

This is so easy I could cry. :(

Metroid had one shitty game (granted, it was reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally shitty), and that's not even by Retro. Retro don't fuck around.

Let's not go decrying Metroid just yet.
 
Yeah, Retro has a one-hundred-percent track record with Metroid. Sure Corruption didn't reach the god-tier of Metroid Prime, but it was nonetheless a bloody awesome game in its own right.

I think they could have absolutely pulled this off, at least the single-player component. Could have been a brilliant game. The multiplayer side I'm pretty ambivalent towards though.

As I'm of the opinion that Other M taints the franchise with its idiocy, I'd have loved to have seen this concept developed instead.
 
-Eddman- said:
Probably like the cantina at Mos Eisley or KOTOR, filled with fights and big, bad dudes from space.
So in a universe where this game was released, when the Trilogy version came out, we were all ranting about how they changed the scene when Samus shot first?
 

pvpness

Member
Ok, yeah. Other M was an abomination in the Metroid series but this just screams Metroid all the way through. Gotta be fucking kidding me.

Sounds like a solid enough concept that had some ideas worked into Echoes. Wouldn't mind seeing Retro put some of the other ideas into a new ip or something. Could be cool.
 

carlo6529

Member
-Eddman- said:
Interesting idea, but the best thing about your post is the confirmation that Retro has the BEST concept artists in the whole industry. Would love to see a big art book from them in stores.

Absolutely amazing artists however, Blizzard says "hi".

Those expression designs are awesome.
 
Mama Robotnik said:
Yeah, Retro has a one-hundred-percent track record with Metroid. Sure Corruption didn't reach the god-tier of Metroid Prime, but it was nonetheless a bloody awesome game in its own right.

I think they could have absolutely pulled this off, at least the single-player component. Could have been a brilliant game. The multiplayer side I'm pretty ambivalent towards though.

As I'm of the opinion that Other M taints the franchise with its idiocy, I'd have loved to have seen this concept developed instead.
Corruption seemed to be damaged by Echoes falling below expections and thus the attempt to Halo-fy the last entry to the series. Corruption really intoduced some awesome play mechanics and it would have been great to see what the game could have been if Retro was trying more to continue what they started and less to make a blockbuster hit.
 
pvpness said:
Ok, yeah. Other M was an abomination in the Metroid series but this just screams Metroid all the way through. Gotta be fucking kidding me.

What? What kind of logic is that?

Other M wasn't a mess because it deviated from the Metroid template - that's not a problem when done right (ala Fusion, Corruption). It was a mess because it was inferior in every single measurable way to the eight-year-old Metroid Prime (visuals, audio, controls, world design, story, game mechanics, new ideas, hell the fucking title screen). It was a mess because it had a godawful stupid story in which Samus became a frightened little girl who needed a man's say-so to use her weapons even when in life-threatning circumstances. It was a mess because the world was a boring, unimaginative chore. It was a mess because it had a fuckton of stupid cutscenes. It was a mess because it saught to retroactively rewrite and destroy any good in the Metroid story. It was a mess because every character was an idiot. It was a mess because you couldn't use established weapons unless you were standing perfectly still. And a hundred more reasons.

This proposed Metroid 1.5 would have been made by a team we know are competent, so yeah, I'd expect it to be better than Other M.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
pvpness said:
Ok, yeah. Other M was an abomination in the Metroid series but this just screams Metroid all the way through. Gotta be fucking kidding me.

Sounds like a solid enough concept that had some ideas worked into Echoes. Wouldn't mind seeing Retro put some of the other ideas into a new ip or something. Could be cool.
IMO Other M was only bad in terms of execution. If the story had been better written, translated, and voice acted (and hadn't had the stupid weapon authorizations) then it would have been a decent complement to the very fun gameplay.
 
Saint Gregory said:
Corruption seemed to be damaged by Echoes falling below expections and thus the attempt to Halo-fy the last entry to the series. Corruption really intoduced some awesome play mechanics and it would have been great to see what the game could have been if Retro was trying more to continue what they started and less to make a blockbuster hit.

Echoes was better than Prime.

Other M wasn't a mess because it deviated from the Metroid template - that's not a problem when done right (ala Fusion, Corruption). It was a mess because it was inferior in every single measurable way to the eight-year-old Metroid Prime (visuals, audio, controls, world design, story, game mechanics, new ideas, hell the fucking title screen). It was a mess because it had a godawful stupid story in which Samus became a frightened little girl who needed a man's say-so to use her weapons even when in life-threatning circumstances. It was a mess because the world was a boring, unimaginative chore. It was a mess because it had a fuckton of stupid cutscenes. It was a mess because it saught to retroactively rewrite and destroy any good in the Metroid story. It was a mess because every character was an idiot. It was a mess because you couldn't use established weapons unless you were standing perfectly still. And a hundred more reasons.

Pure and utter hyperole.

I'm not one to say Other M was a success, in fact it's easily one of the weaker Metroid games. But you are completely ignoring what it did right in favour of presenting your argument about what it did wrong.

It brought speed back to Metroid, for starters. The Prime games, as wonderful as they were, ignored one of the key things about Metroid - Samus' movement. She lost so much of her speed and agility that movement was almost unrecognisable when comparing the 2D and 3D games. Thankfully the Prime series' design accounted for this very well, but there's no doubt that it was still missed, particularly in a series renowned for its speed runs.

How on earth did it rewrite the Metroid story? It only addressed and expanded it. It gave reasons as to what happened in Fusion. It was in-line with Samus' character traits from the Manga. There were some inconsistencies with the games (namely the pre-Ridley cutscene) but it's hard to judge Other M for that considering the games never really attempted to do anything with Samus as a character. She talked in Fusion and Super Metroid and that was about it. You can't really say Other M did much wrong with Samus when previous games never attempted to flesh her out in any way. Now, if you didn't like the game's decision to favour exposition and cinematics over the established 'show, don't tell' approach of the original games, then that's a different argument.

And you failed to mention the terrific boss battles. It had the best Ridley boss fight in the series with cutscenes leading up the fight that were actually well-excuted and nicely placed throughout the game. New bosses such as Goyagma were excellent. No to mention fan-service such as the Queen Metroid, Nightmare and Phantoon. It's not as if these fights were poor in any way (except for the third stage in the Queen battle).

Oh and finally the near-perfect execution of Metroid staples like the speed booster, space jump and screw attack.

I'm not excusing Other M's myriad of errors but it's still easy to appreciate what it did right.
 
Man, that sounds like an awesome game idea. After playing/watching Dead Space and Dead Space: Extraction, I would greatly enjoy this type of Metroid game.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
This better be the Metroid game that Retro brings to the WiiHD.

Yeah, I liked Other M. I think Other M is the gameplay style that should continue the 2D games, but I loved the Prime Trilogy too. I would love to see Retro continue that series as well. If they have these kinda unused concepts lying around then hell yeah.

And I have to be honest here, and I know there are many that agree with these sentiments too, but in hindsight, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, was my favorite in the Prime trilogy. This concept, which I understand, had many of its ideas make it way into Echoes, but another Metroid Prime game like it would be just awesome.
 

pvpness

Member
Mama Robotnik said:
What? What kind of logic is that?

Other M wasn't a mess because it deviated from the Metroid template - that's not a problem when done right (ala Fusion, Corruption). It was a mess because it was inferior in every single measurable way to the eight-year-old Metroid Prime (visuals, audio, controls, world design, story, game mechanics, new ideas, hell the fucking title screen). It was a mess because it had a godawful stupid story in which Samus became a frightened little girl who needed a man's say-so to use her weapons even when in life-threatning circumstances. It was a mess because the world was a boring, unimaginative chore. It was a mess because it had a fuckton of stupid cutscenes. It was a mess because it saught to retroactively rewrite and destroy any good in the Metroid story. It was a mess because every character was an idiot. It was a mess because you couldn't use established weapons unless you were standing perfectly still. And a hundred more reasons.

This proposed Metroid 1.5 would have been made by a team we know are competent, so yeah, I'd expect it to be better than Other M.

I'm well aware of the subjective reasons for which people don't like Other M but thanks for the run down again. We disagree. I thought the visuals, audio, controls, world design, story, game mechanics, and new ideas were great in both games. Story seems to be the big one that people hang up on, and while I think it's hilarious to bitch about story in a series that hasn't ever really had any instead of just ignoring it for the game play, I can still understand it. Know why the story didn't bother me in Other M? Cause I've yet to play a single goddamn videogame in the past 35 years that had a story that was anything but basic and oft times hilarious in it's attempts to be something more than it really was. I also don't understand the gripe about her being a frightened little girl considering while I was running around waxing multiple enemies at once, Samus never once seized control of the game from me to cry in a corner. Then again, I guess the one scene in which see has a momentary shock from the return of Ridley makes her a spineless bitch for the rest of the game, retroactively even to some people. I disagree with that lot.

A mans say so for weapons huh? This is worse than zero explanation for why I have to collect the same power-ups across multiple games? I mean, they at least explained it so it made sense. Simply as well. Samus respects this dude, feels bad about her youthful arrogant ways, decides to play ball for once. Maybe you came up with all kinds of interesting canon to explain why you had to get the upgrades in SM after obtaining them in Metroid, or why you'd need to collect them yet again in Prime or any of the other games. I didn't. I don't give a fuck why I don't/do have power-ups in games. I'm not interested.

Other M didn't ret-con anything as far as I'm concerned. I understand that many fans of the series had this elaborate story set up in their minds how they thought the story had played out and how it ought to play out but fact is, it didn't go that way. I feel for you guys believe me but to act like Other M was omg the worst fucking game ever is so hyperbolic that I can't even read the bullshit anymore without immediately firing up. And now I'm ranting about it. Fuuuuuuuck.

I enjoyed having Samus's agility back, finally. Was so tired of sluggish Samus that it was turning me off the series so Other M was actually a nice refresh for me. Sucks it wasn't the same for you.

Anyway, yeah, I disagree with the haters obviously. Hate it when people try to pass their opinion as objective. Could this idea of made a sweet Metroid game? Possibly. I don't know. I'd have bought and played it regardless, I can tell you that much. Despite the goofy, non-Metroidesque shit it may have pulled. Cause I love Metroid.
 
Nintendo should just hand their whole catalog of charecters over to Retro and let them run wild with it. They have done outstanding work resurecting both Metroid and Donkey Kong Country.
 
Most of that sounded awesome. No way in hell they would have been able to pump it out in a year under Nintendo standards.

Also, no metroids at all in that gameplay scenario.
 

Teknoman

Member
Silver_DNA said:
I'd be up for this. Hopefully they get the freedom to do it or something similar. It sounds really neat.

I support this. An original sci-fi action series by Retro would be great. After seeing DKCR, I trust them with every genre.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
Saint Gregory said:
I was talking sales numbers. I actually thought Prime was better until I got to Sanctuary Fortress and then forgot all about Prime.

Both Echoes and Corruption did something much better than Prime, and that being it featured truly alien environments, that didn't follow the Super Metroid model. Those games didn't just feature environments that were familiar Earth settings.

Echoes rocked. Best-morph ball puzzles ever featured in a Metroid game.
 
Saint Gregory said:
I was talking sales numbers. I actually thought Prime was better until I got to Sanctuary Fortress and then forgot all about Prime.

It actually took me a while to really appreciate Echoes. Prime wasn't my favourite Metroid game (and to this day Super still remains the best) but I loved the shit out of it and came into Echoes with high hopes. For the most part the game lived up to it but there was a niggling feeling like it wasn't the overall package that Prime was.

Further replays of the game changed my mind though. Echoes is essentially Retro Studios let loose. They were clearly unrestrained in what they were allowed to do, because Echoes is a complex bitch. Not everything it attempts to do is nailed, indeed the game can stray towards being convoluted at times, but most of the game is executed with aplomb. Some of the boss battles and puzzles in that game are just mind-blowing, not to mention how stellar an alien world Aether is.

It's the height of Retro Studios' output thus far in my opinion.
 

Teknoman

Member
Gamer @ Heart said:
Most of that sounded awesome. No way in hell they would have been able to pump it out in a year under Nintendo standards.

Also, no metroids at all in that gameplay scenario.

The Humetroids sorta count.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
Teknoman said:
I support this. An original sci-fi action series by Retro would be great. After seeing DKCR, I trust them with every genre.

I would really love them to take up another Metroid Prime game, as well as continue their Donkey Kong series. At this point, Retro is entitled to hang on to their legacy and continue it as they wish. Of course, I'm all for Retro create its own new IP. They might earn their way into position to just do that at this point, so I would not rule it out.
 

Nessus

Member
Honestly I think the nightclub multiplayer could be great (coming from a huge Metroid fan who owns every game in the series except for Pinball, and prioritizes item upgrades, isolation, and persistent world as the defining characteristics of the series).

I imagine a bit of an Assassin's Creed getting-lost-in-a-crowd kind of stealth. It'd be hard to pull off on Wii, though; you'd need hundreds of patrons, I think.

Alien music that could be at turns beautiful and agonizing whale noise blaring from the sound system in the central hub.

Amazing visuals in time to the music projected above the dance floor (some aliens' idea of dancing could be very creepy, insect-like, halting, Silent Hilly. Some could just stand in the middle of the dance floor staring at you).

Various alien/future sports on projected holo screens above the bar, could have a fun F-Zero cameo in the background.

Make it a dark scummy kind of setting, and yeah, I don't think having a booth full of Space Pirates would be too much of a stretch. Glaring at her as she passes, initiating a fight if she gets too close. This would be a rough kind of bar where it might turn some heads, but the music would continue and everyone would go about their business if Samus killed one of them.

I really like the idea of "isolated in a crowd" and I think you could do it well in setting like that, especially when the patrons are aliens, so you can't understand what they're saying anyways.

You could have different areas of the clubs populated by different species. The aural component would change dynamically as you moved around. Some aliens' speech could function as background music, like something out of Metroid II.

Some species could almost blend into the floor/wall like a barnacle, co-opting parts of the club for themselves, projecting a very territorial feeling. You can take that route, but it might trigger a fight.

Play it up, make it like each section of the bar is a different ecosystem, hell, it'd have to be given different species' life support requirements. Some areas could be super heated for silicon based life, others more jungley, others with low gravity, some with no gravity in free fall, etc.

Sonic baffles could contain the main DJ music to the central area, and it'd be a very abrupt change as you walk through the club. Some parts would be perfectly silent except for your footfalls, despite the flashing lights and huge crowd. There'd be this neat disconnect between what you're seeing and what you're hearing.

Private conversations in booths would likewise be shielded, but you could see them pointing at you and talking about you as you pass.

The escort mission idea isn't bad.

I like it. First off, make the "pop" star extremely creepy and alien, barely recognizably a life form (NOT humanoid at all, or bug like. Avoid cliches). The "music" it performs is like sheet metal grinding set to a Melotron orchestra.

Have 2 players. One is Samus, escorting the pop star to the safety of a shuttle waiting outside the club.

The other is an assassin with a sniper rifle, among other abilities. For argument's sake, make it Trace, the best of all around not very good characters from Metroid Prime: Hunters. He can cloak if he stands still, but uncloaks when he moves or fires. He also has a very close range melee attack that, if performed from behind, is a one hit kill on Samus.

The route to the waiting shuttle is different each round. The club is huge, cathedral-like. Trace can choose from dozens of vantage points.

The sonic baffles could come into play; they could mask the sound of a gunshot, or of Trace's footsteps behind Samus.

Meanwhile they're trying to evacuate the club in an orderly fashion, but of course people and aliens alike, panic.

I dunno, I just love the idea of asymmetrical multiplayer. Deathmatch is incredibly boring, and control point and capture the flag are getting there. Something that seems to be taking cues from Splinter Cell's asymmetrical multiplayer modes is a welcome change.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
_Alkaline_ said:
It actually took me a while to really appreciate Echoes. Prime wasn't my favourite Metroid game (and to this day Super still remains the best) but I loved the shit out of it and came into Echoes with high hopes. For the most part the game lived up to it but there was a niggling feeling like it wasn't the overall package that Prime was.

Further replays of the game changed my mind though. Echoes is essentially Retro Studios let loose. They were clearly unrestrained in what they were allowed to do, because Echoes is a complex bitch. Not everything it attempts to do is nailed, indeed the game can stray towards being convoluted at times, but most of the game is executed with aplomb. Some of the boss battles and puzzles in that game are just mind-blowing, not to mention how stellar an alien world Aether is.

It's the height of Retro Studios' output thus far in my opinion.

Best part is, that despite being so daring and radical with the Metroid formula, they even went back and learned to take some aspects from Super Metroid where learning from the past is key to progression. We saw the return of the screw attack, wall jumping, and even something as simple as colored shield doors. They moved this forward in Corruption too with beam stacking.
 

Teknoman

Member
Well any project they decide to take up next should have Kenji Yamamoto as the composer. That man knows music...and I feel Other M would've been that much better with him behind the tunes. I liked the basic idea behind Other M, but they shouldnt have tried to deviate THAT much from series standards ( as far as environmental puzzles, and familiar music themes go).

Also Samus is still a bounty hunter...so they shouldnt be afraid to put her in different situations that may or may not involve metroids.
 
_Alkaline_ said:
It actually took me a while to really appreciate Echoes. Prime wasn't my favourite Metroid game (and to this day Super still remains the best) but I loved the shit out of it and came into Echoes with high hopes. For the most part the game lived up to it but there was a niggling feeling like it wasn't the overall package that Prime was.

Further replays of the game changed my mind though. Echoes is essentially Retro Studios let loose. They were clearly unrestrained in what they were allowed to do, because Echoes is a complex bitch. Not everything it attempts to do is nailed, indeed the game can stray towards being convoluted at times, but most of the game is executed with aplomb. Some of the boss battles and puzzles in that game are just mind-blowing, not to mention how stellar an alien world Aether is.

It's the height of Retro Studios' output thus far in my opinion.
I've been meaning to replay Echoes for a while as I only really had the single playthrough to judge it by but for whatever reason the light/dark ammo aspect of the game really offended me. It seems really silly in retrospect since every Metroid game since the first had at least missile ammo and creatures that could only be killed with that particular weapon so I'm not sure why I felt that way.

The game did seem to have a lot more combat than Metroid games up to that point so maybe that turned me off a little but still the last few hours of the game were so spectacular that all was forgiven.
 
Saint Gregory said:
I've been meaning to replay Echoes for a while as I only really had the single playthrough to judge it by but for whatever reason the light/dark ammo aspect of the game really offended me. It seems really silly in retrospect since every Metroid game since the first had at least missile ammo and creatures that could only be killed with that particular weapon so I'm not sure why I felt that way.

The game did seem to have a lot more combat than Metroid games up to that point so maybe that turned me off a little but still the last few hours of the game were so spectacular that all was forgiven.

I didn't mind having ammo for beam weapons because it tiny bit more strategy and variety to enemy encounters, and ammo itself was plentiful. It didn't really improve the game in any way, but it didn't hurt it either. I will say though that Retro could have (and should have) taken it further with the ammo idea, as its role in Echoes never really brought anything new to the Metroid table.

It did frustrate me how certain doors could only be opened with certain beams. Prime did the same thing and it was just as annoying then. Retro made a large oversight there, as they could have simply made it a one-time thing. Instead they basically gave a little more reason to switch beams at the cost of convenience.
 

VerTiGo

Banned
_Alkaline_ said:
I didn't mind having ammo for beam weapons because it little more strategy and variety to enemy encounters, and ammo itself was plentiful. It didn't really improve the game in any way, but it didn't hurt it either.

It did frustrate me how certain doors could only be opened with certain beams. Prime did the same thing and it was just as annoying then. Retro made a large oversight there, as they could have simply made it a one-time thing. Instead they basically gave a little more reason to switch beams at the cost of convenience.

That was kind of taken care of with "beam stacking" in Corruption.
 
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