There is no magic 28nm cpu and GPU tech that only Nintendo has access to that sony and Microsoft don't, especially with the same or similar vendors at play. Whatever incremental improvements made to the chips that are on that node since late 2013 could certainly make it into their new machines, but it's not going to be somehow cheaper AND more powerful than their competitors. Pick 1.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
More hints that AMD is building Nintendo NXs processor (VentureBeat)
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
- Status
There is no magic 28nm cpu and GPU tech that only Nintendo has access to that sony and Microsoft don't, especially with the same or similar vendors at play. Whatever incremental improvements made to the chips that are on that node since late 2013 could certainly make it into their new machines, but it's not going to be somehow cheaper AND more powerful than their competitors. Pick 1.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
3rd pillar to rule the world?
We've already discussed it. We don't know if the NX is gonna get a port of the PS4 version. Plus both games are only under consideration for the NX.
2016/17 seems like it could be a crappy time for the withered technology strategy considering AMD and Nvidia plan to have new architectures out and have smaller node production going (finally). Or good in a weird way cause Nintendo gets to pick from the mature old gen scraps?
Don't know the context for that answer there, but in general it sounds like the idea that tech advancements are more active/exciting in the software and services side of things nowadays. Course that's cause a lot of computer hardware has been awesome and good enough for a while now. We'll be able to say that about Nintendo hardware...one day.
DQX port will use UE4 too?
Unlikely. DQX will likely be a further tweaked Wii U version
It was more like a slip-up by Horii than an "under consideration". Square-Enix PR had clean things up for him.
The Giant
Banned
It got confirmed at the event. Then an hour later the Square pr team backtracked that official announcement by saying it's under consideration since they must have got a phone call from Nintendo, SE just wasn't mean't to make that announcement.
One Pillar to rule them all, One Pillar to find them; One Pillar to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
MrCunningham
Member
Sega took a much bigger loss on each console than Sony did, the Saturn was not a cheap system for them to manufacture and it was planned on being sold at $100 more at launch to recoup some of the losses. The Saturn has two main CPU's two different video processors, and multiple co-processors. Nintendo managed to reduce costs of the N64 by leaving out things like a dedicated soundchip and not using a CD ROM drive, the chipset was basically just a CPU, GPU and one or two RAM chips. Though the downside to this was that not using a CD ROM drive made their games more costly to produce. They did make a profit on each system sold though.
Pentium 1 classed PC's from '94/ '95 were more than capable of keeping up with the Sony Playstation and Sega Saturn, though. Even through software rendering. By 1996 Pentium II's were becoming more common and so was 3D acceleration.
'Third Pillar' seems to be Nintendo's code word for: "we don't know if this machine with sink or swim?". The last time they used 'third pillar' was with the Nintendo DS, it launched while the GBA was still hot in the market. Nintendo made that push with the DS as a reaction to the PSP, they were scared that Sony was going to come in to the handheld market and steal their lunch. The Nintendo DS did have a slow start though, but it eventually did pick up and become a massive success pushing that third pillar nonsense to the side.
Here it seems like Nintendo is positioning the NX to compete a little more direction with the XBO and PS4, but at the same time they don't want to completely replace the Wii-U.
E3 interviews suggested heavily NX at least its first iteration if its a family would likely be a Console. Nintendo can honestly limp along with the 3DS another year or two if it has too. Its best to drop the Wii U and get the new strategy rolling its margins and sales aren't enough to bother limping
Honestly, 3DS isn't doing great either. It'll be coming on 6 years old by the end of 2016, both platforms are likely being put out to pasture for NX. A handheld with games that look as good as Wii U serves both markets well.
megabytecr
Member
Interesting read, as was the Wii U threads back in the day.
Food for thought.
If they decide to scratch the current architecture they can either:
1. Create a tool to make migration from Wii U apps to NX easier.
2. Software emulation: not sure how easy this is as I am not techie enough.
If they are going for the Single OS idea which all indicates is the case, they can certainly try different tier systems in terms of power, with the highest system being able to run everything, and 95% of Nintendo games will probably scale across all hardware with different performance.
I think all HW options will be able to run all VC games, they have a huge opportunity with VC this time.
If they are going ONLY with low power, which I don't think will be the case, they will have to absolutely kill it with the launch lineup, which was one of the major drawbacks of the Wii U.
With multiple systems they can cater to the impulse family buyer and to the Hardcore fan who also wants a Nintendo fix.
For indies and 3rd Parties bringing new games and older games to the system makes sense as all future systems can in theory run them.
They probably are also investing heavily in the tools for devs to make development and porting very easy.
Food for thought.
If they decide to scratch the current architecture they can either:
1. Create a tool to make migration from Wii U apps to NX easier.
2. Software emulation: not sure how easy this is as I am not techie enough.
If they are going for the Single OS idea which all indicates is the case, they can certainly try different tier systems in terms of power, with the highest system being able to run everything, and 95% of Nintendo games will probably scale across all hardware with different performance.
I think all HW options will be able to run all VC games, they have a huge opportunity with VC this time.
If they are going ONLY with low power, which I don't think will be the case, they will have to absolutely kill it with the launch lineup, which was one of the major drawbacks of the Wii U.
With multiple systems they can cater to the impulse family buyer and to the Hardcore fan who also wants a Nintendo fix.
For indies and 3rd Parties bringing new games and older games to the system makes sense as all future systems can in theory run them.
They probably are also investing heavily in the tools for devs to make development and porting very easy.
sörine;173304465 said:
Its pretty much confirmed to be both, so I don't know why we keep having this circular discussion. All of Matt's info points to a console and a handheld SKU existing, and the handheld will be of a quality (probably) do WiiU-like visuals on a 5-6" screen as per the norm.
And I have no doubt that the 3DS replacement SKU will be first, its their stronger market and its one that they need to revitalize. The console space is a salvage job.
I just thought it was a mistake on the press release writer's part, I wasn't aware of the stream. I guess they done goofed, then.
lwilliams3
Member
Thank you for clarifying that information, Blu. The difference between the mobile and high-end UE4 tools are not as major as I expected.
From what I heard, the GPU for the NX did not get a speed boost, and it still uses fixed shaders. Besides Unity, other modern game engines that relies on programmable shaders will still have to be adjusted or swap out for the n3DS. You're also right: the new power of the system is rarely taking advantage of. At least the OS is much faster and some games (like Smash Bros) doesn't require the system to restart changing something anymore.
It is funny how those games were officially announced for the NX by Horii when no one publicly knows what it even is. Nintendo may be more active behind the scenes than people expected.
lol, I was wondering how in the world Nintendo was cool with them suddenly announcing the first actual NX game like that.
Eteric Rice
Member
Hopefully the NX can run UE4 right out of the gate (as well as Unity and maybe Source). I think Unity is certain, but Nintendo seems to lack any kind of relationship with Epic.
lwilliams3
Member
Epic's relationship is not as bad as it sometimes appears. Epic did supported UE3 for the Wii U. It is just their hardware haven't been able to run their current engine up to their standards and/or that wasn't as many developers asking for current-UE engine support.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Let me clarify a bit further, as the subject warrants that.
Our discussions have traditionally been 'FLOPS this, FLOPS that', whereas the essential difference in this case is elsewhere - bandwidth. UE4 is a case study about the absence of the deferred pipeline on BW-limited platforms. A deferred pipeline trades off bandwidth for the ability to show much higher numbers of dynamic lights. Whereas we don't really have meaningful UE4 numbers re 'FLOPS per individual dynamic light of type X', the BW situation is such that mobile devices seldom have the BW it takes for effective deferred pipelines (case study: Uncharted on PSV). A hypothetical Adreno330 with console-class BW might have been eligible for the UE4 deferred pipeline. In reality that GPU does not have the BW, so it received the forward pipeline, with all consequences from that, i.e. one directional light source, etc.
Now, to connect this to the wiiU - even though we never received conclusive numbers, the conservative estimates we've come up for BW available to Latte was in the vicinity of 70GB/s to eDRAM and 12.5GB/s to main RAM. That's an aggregate BW of 82.5GB/s - way more than what any recent mobile device has had. Moreover, several high-profile titles on the platform use deferred pipelines @ 60fps (MK8, SM3DW). Now, of course, those titles use shading models largely different from UE4's (read: UE4's must surely be more ALU-intensive), but the g-buffers they use would be still comparable; while always trying to optimize that, most deferred pipelines use g-buffers in the same ballpark for the same render-target resolutions.
So the short take on the subject is: while wiiU's GPU would not be a prime candidate for a pipeline of the sort of UE4's, it should still be a viable one. Hopefully, we shall see soon what Armature think on the subject.
Zeyphersan
Banned
Everyone keeps using Bloodstained as proof of the idea that the Wii U can run UE4, but have they said specifically "Yes this version will be running Unreal?" Because otherwise I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the Wii U port is just working from a totally different engine
I suggested in another thread that if the rumours of ARM + AOSP are true, it would have UE4 support by default as UE4 mobile runs on AOSP
fabricated backlash
Member
Armature said themselves that they're porting UE4 and will let other indies use that engine port if they want to (with no further support though)
Now if they can pull it off however....
Zeyphersan
Banned
Cool, thanks
Candescence
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo was actively working with Epic and Unity behind the scenes to bring their engines to NX with dedicated support, and taking into account the needs of both engines in the specs for both the handheld and the console.
Not really, no. Especially with PS3 there shouldn't even be a discussion, 8800 GTX was out by then and completely decimates it.
Candescence
Member
Oh, did I love that card. Didn't need to upgrade for years.
With that NX name drop did Square just confirm the system would have NX in some form for its naming?
Unless i'm mistaken i can't really think of a game that was announced before a system was revealed and was announced via the system's codename, someone correct me if i'm wrong.
Unless i'm mistaken i can't really think of a game that was announced before a system was revealed and was announced via the system's codename, someone correct me if i'm wrong.
They know it as NX, that's why they call it that I would assume. Normally the actual name for the system gets decided a few months before launch.
There was once an article/interview with how the Wii name came to be that gave more insight about it.
BronzeWolf
Banned
I don't think anybody knows the NX final name yet, not even Nintendo. How else are they going to call it?
Seeing as DQ XI was announced for both 3DS and PS4, I am wondering if the NX handheld will first launch in Japan and then America / Europe and with the console the other way round? Or maybe they are trying to dominate the handheld market first on all fronts and not try their luck in the console space, seeing as PS4 currently dominates this generation. I hope I bump into someone at Gamescom knowledgable about the subject.
GhostTrick
Banned
Well, the thing is when PS3 was announced, 7800GTX was the top end of Nvidia. If I had to draw a comparison, its like if PS4 was released with a HD7970 or GTX680... to be then outperformed by the R9 290x and the GTX780ti.
Not only that, but PS3 had a high end CPU. Same for Xbox 360, which featured a more advance GPU than the one in PCs. When PS4 and Xbox One were announced, their GPUs were the middle end of an outdated serie. As for their CPU... well...
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Apropos, here's some A57 food for speculations.
Fourth Storm
Member
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Sure. Though they would not use much above the kernel and basic toolchain and libraries to build on top. Case in point: ps4 and freebsd.
But the main reason I brought up that article was how a cluster of 4x A57 performs when executing native aarch64 code (rather than aarch32).
Grampa Simpson
Banned
Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt.
Most issues happen with standard libraries that have administrative rights. Cut out the majority of the libraries or adjust their rights to keep them in userland.
Read this article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_escalation
lwilliams3
Member
The superposition of three Titan X's and one HD4000. You won't know what's in your machine until you open it.
I really hope they went with A57, especially after seeing those benchmarks, but i'm not sure about this.
So, there are a few possibilities:
1) the ARM device is "beyond gaming" (like a Fire TV or something) and the x86 machine is gaming related (NX). They have nothing to do with the portable and Nintendo partnered with Imagination for that
2) both are Nintendo contracts, the ARM is for the handheld and the x86 is for the home, that somehow goes "beyond gaming" (gimmick, extra functions, etc)
3) the ARM contract is for both Nintendo consoles and the x86 is something else, like a Steam Machine ("goes beyond gaming") or a mini PC based on an AMD x86 SoC
4) the gaming console is not Nintendo related but some Ouya-like stuff, the other device is something like the Fire TV, and Nintendo partenered with Imagination for both devices (unlikely)
Any thoughts?
Was just thinking. If Dragon Quest Heroes 2 or Builders also received NX ports, it would point at the system being a console comparable to the PS4. They may have just skipped the system for strategic reasons - already too much on their plates, port would come out too late, whatever - but their absence makes me suspect that it's the 3DS version that may be ported.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You're forgetting that AMD won another semi-custom contract this year. So let me extend the choices:
3.1) the ARM contract is for nintendo home (and is likely based off Skybridge), and this year's contact is for nintendo handheld.
4.1) neither of last year's contracts were for nintendo, but the one from this year is, most likely for the home unit. The handheld goes to somebody else.
I think this is the most likely reason, otherwise Joker 3 would probably be cross-gen too. I have to imagine the 3DS successor will be at least comparable to Vita so it would be able run DQH2 and Builders if they really wanted it to.
Unless its a 50$ handheld, it will be much more than the Vita.
That's one way to get 20 million shipped first year!
Unless that 20 million encompasses both the console & handheld versions over the course of the first year of release.
Builders is this year and Heroes 2 Q1 next year. Way too soon. Also both are scalable to Vita so no NX announcements mean little about it's capability since Matt confirmed it's above Wii U.
- Status