Norris1020
Member
He has dead brain tissue the doctors said, likely due to his brain being starved of oxygen.
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N. Korea sentences American to 15 years labor (Up: Otto Warmbier has died)
- Thread starter wanderingprostheyltite
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He has dead brain tissue the doctors said, likely due to his brain being starved of oxygen.
Yeah but what's the alternative? Are you confident that we can overthrow a dictator and create a better situation? We might end up installing a "Democratic" leader that ends up being worse and fires off nukes anyway.
JetBlackPanda
Member
ok that makes sense.
BlackBanditSho
Member
I hesitated to respond to this thread because the responses are legit perplexing to me. I feel bad for the young man and what happened to him is abominable.
And there's definitely a BUT coming.
This isn't about looking at N.Korea and their rules as disgusting. They obviously are. You know this and everyone in the world knows this.
What I'm really tired of reading on these boards is this western-centric angle of imposing our morality and our rules and our judgments on another culture because WE do or DON"T do something their way and feel that that their culture SHOULD do it our way. Take that shit up with the U.N., folks. Impose harsh trade sanctions and vote for people that know how to deal with and respect the differences between nations in a diplomatic way.
I had a work trip to Singapore. They tell you ON THE PLANE before you even enter the country that littering is a crime punishable by serious imprisonment. Period.
That's it. It's in black and white. Actually, i think the text was in RED when i read it.
I was petrified about dropping even a tissue on the sidewalk when i was there. If i had trash, it went into my pocket until i could find a trash can. And you know what? Singapore might be one of the cleanest places I've been to in my life. I ate at some off the beaten path spot housed in the equivalent of an ALLEY, and that place was as clean as any 4star place you'd find here in the states.
I'm just tired of hearing these stories about people not respecting a culture's rules, then complain when somebody decides to do something that might seem inconsequential - and it may well be - and get hammered with the harshest of reactions from said culture.
This kid's situation sucks. That he's in a coma sucks. Was this kid of a mature enough level to go to someplace like N.Korea in the first place? Should there be a stricter vetting process on our side when we allow passports and visas for Americans to antagonistic societies? Maybe THAT should be the conversation. Changing North Korea (or any non-western culture) for how they do shit when we are a guest there is arrogant and not anything that you or I can change on an individual level. Again, we elect people that represent our interests to speak for us and enact diplomatic resolutions.
What you or I *can* do is make smart choices about where we go and how we conduct ourselves. Respecting your environment goes a long LONG way. This is sound advice that will save your ass whether you're walking in the streets of an unknown neighborhood, traveling the globe, or deciding if THIS is the right mixed company to use a casual slur with when you're feeling particularly 'comfortable'.
This kid thought he was gonna get away with some slick stuff on account of him being American. Anybody who has traveled overseas for any extended period of time - and ESPECIALLY if you're black and traveling overseas - is you realize that your American card isn't a pass to get your ass out of trouble. In fact, it might get you in MORE trouble.
RESPECT YOUR ENVIRONMENT, even if you don't agree with or like it.
Agreed 100%. When you can be arrested for bringing in outside literature, taking pictures in the wrong direction, or blocking the dear dictators image by standing in front of it? Do what they fucking say.
On the flipside, what happened to him is horrifying and I feel for the family. No one should ever go through what he did.
On the flipside, what happened to him is horrifying and I feel for the family. No one should ever go through what he did.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If you stay within the guard rails of that fakeass tour you'll probably be fine, but deviating from those rails? Yikes. Your life is over.
Somehow coming home in a coma after just a year is even more scary than serving a sentence in those camps. Like they couldn't even keep it together housing one American inmate in a gulag like a normal evil regime, they quickly found a way to give him brain damage. Maybe he was more defiant than the average inmate and their only possible response was to torture him.
Somehow coming home in a coma after just a year is even more scary than serving a sentence in those camps. Like they couldn't even keep it together housing one American inmate in a gulag like a normal evil regime, they quickly found a way to give him brain damage. Maybe he was more defiant than the average inmate and their only possible response was to torture him.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
North Korea doesn't usually torture the US people they detain do they? I can't recall any of the US people who have been detained in the past saying they were tortured. Most of them are forced to do hard labor or just detained in a cell. It seems out of the ordinary for them to torture a detained US citizen.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Just got caught up on all this. Terrible all around. Didn't recall he never actually took the banner outside of the area it was in. Still obv shouldn't have gone into a restricted area but he didn't deserve a goddamn coma :/
Spoiled Milk
Banned
No need to be nasty.
No, he lost a lot of brain tissue due to the cardiopulmonary arrest - the current running theory.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The NK government has been known to murder, starve and torture large numbers of people at a whim, including its own citizens, so no, it's not safe for anyone. Who knows what really happened to this guy. Saying that he shouldn't have torn down the poster is victim blaming.
cpp_is_king
Member
They probably waterboarded him honestly. Left him under too long and he got brain damage.
Nah. You [you meaning him] know the rules. You just don't think you have to follow them because you're American.
Saw a tweet earlier today but can't find it at the moment. Basically rando on twitter says he can't even walk to the Eastside of town without dealing with nonsense but white dude can cause trouble in North Korea.
Widdle Puppy
Banned
NK has a new leader so anything is possible with what could have happened to him. This was absolutely top down too. I doubt there was a long chain of command between what happens to this guy and the dictators orders. It's anyones guess what happened. He could have been tortured or medical malpractice could of taken place. For some reason I think he was tortured into this state since I heard the new dictator in NK has been out to prove himself and is ballsy. I don't have any evidence to back this up though so it could be a coincidence.
Clockwork5
Member
Um...
Yeah Kenneth Bae had to do physical labor, lost 60 pounds, and was taunted but didn't have this shit happened to him. Really makes me wonder why this guy was treated so much more harshly.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/02/us/kenneth-bae-interview/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Bae#Prison_life
MrPressStart
Member
The father blames Obama... and praises Trump? Why?
Seriously, it's a slap in the face to America to deliver this guy back on life support as a vegetable. Sick!
Seriously, it's a slap in the face to America to deliver this guy back on life support as a vegetable. Sick!
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I'm sure you'll be willing to take in all the refugees right?
Arkage
Banned
I see this thread is testing the limits of victim blaming. I believe one could argue that his arrest was his fault, but his subsequent likely strangulation and coma were not his fault in anyway. Unless, of course, NK has "strangulation into a coma" policy in their written law for being the just punishment for poster stealing, which I doubt.
First Russia, now North Korea has infiltrated GAF.
TheAtomicPile
Member
Did I miss something? Why are we accepting NK's story about him stealing the poster at face value?
Are people not familiar with the other outrageous shit that they claim to be true when it comes to their leaders, government, Americans, etc.?
Are people not familiar with the other outrageous shit that they claim to be true when it comes to their leaders, government, Americans, etc.?
God dammit that shit makes me so pissed. I feel horrible every time I see the footage on the news of him at his trial. You can see the fear on his face, and the complete crushing of his soul when the verdict is read, the moment he realizes his life had been completely ruined over something so fucking trivial.
And then a year later for him to somehow meet a fate worse than death, far worse than anything he imagined, it's just so fucking tragic.
MrPressStart
Member
I think there was video... still.. it's a fucking poster. Shits not worth the love fe of anybody.
I would love to ask the father why and all, push for answers but we can't. We shouldn't. No one should. HIs son is messed up no thanks to N. Korea, and that's the more important area to focus on despite our feels of frustration from the father's comments. Ugh. Hopefully, when the father is ready he would be able to come back and tell us exactly what Trump did. If Trump didn't do anything then we can ignore any other Trump & Obama comments he makes without pressuring him.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
I'm thinking that the area he sneaked into really did have some sensitive stuff in it.
The floor he allegedly trespassed on is a common place that americans who are not very smart sneak to when on vacation to N. Korea so it's not exactly far fetched. There are plenty of videos on youtube and photos of people on the floor. It's a secret floor in their hotel used for surveillance.
Coriolanus
Banned
you can yt videos of his behaviour at his trial. Exact opposite of a defiant inmate.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
That's what those trials are always like. They tell them if they put on a good show they will be lenient with the sentence.
JetBlackPanda
Member
I would fold so fast in his position and kiss dear leaders ass. I would say whatever they want at trial against my country.
Am I a horrible person?
Am I a horrible person?
Norris1020
Member
Hell no, man. Just got to try to survive.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
He basically did that right before he was sentenced.
So let me get this straight..
The priviledged white American who thought he could get away with anything (because he's white and American of course) has a shitbag Dad who is upset Obama "didn't do more" and thanks Trump for helping to get his son home. So yeah. Screw him and the Dad. Probably had it coming. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I bet his Dad voted for Trump, too. One less Trump vote in 2020.
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No. Just fucking no. That's not how this works at all. The responses that amount to the above are absolutely beyond the pale and simply.. lacking.
The priviledged white American who thought he could get away with anything (because he's white and American of course) has a shitbag Dad who is upset Obama "didn't do more" and thanks Trump for helping to get his son home. So yeah. Screw him and the Dad. Probably had it coming. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I bet his Dad voted for Trump, too. One less Trump vote in 2020.
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No. Just fucking no. That's not how this works at all. The responses that amount to the above are absolutely beyond the pale and simply.. lacking.
People are so quick to jump to both extreme side of the scale. North Korea is an awful dictatorship run by an insane despot. It's awful and frankly unacceptable they beat someone until he went brain dead because of a prank he did. It's not a fair punishment at all for what he did. On the other hand doing a prank like this is not the wisest stuff to do in a place like North Korea.
Coriolanus
Banned
you'd be dooming several thousand south koreans to a fiery death, but hey, who cares rite? lex talionis ftw
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Last time I checked, burglary is a crime everywhere.
He did not deserve to be put in a coma, no way. But he did deserve to be charged. He committed a crime in a country with very strict and clear rules. A smattering of them being "don't steal, don't break into areas you have no business with, don't disrespect our leader (poster had Kim Jong Il's name on it)". I travelled on the same tour company as he did. We were given a very long and detailed orientation on the do's and don'ts while in the country. Admittedly this was after he went down so it could have been a step-up measure, but it's not hard to understand.
He thought he could get away with it, and the media have been giving him tons of attention - because he's white and American. There have been numerous instances of charity workers being detained for much less. They're victims of the regime, yet get basically nothing after the first week; because they're Korean Americans probably.
But yeah, basically this all day.
Captain Zyrain
Member
Poor guy.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's pretty mind blowing to find people accusing the kid.
I don't have any kind of certainty that he actually stole anything. Maybe they forced him to make this confession. Even if he took a flag/poster, maybe he was not aware that it was a crime. Even if he did took it, he's a kid, and now he is (apparently) dead.
NK leadership is desperately looking to provoke a conflict with US.
It have nothing to do with culture. It's a dictatorship where the leader is a divine figure.
I don't have any kind of certainty that he actually stole anything. Maybe they forced him to make this confession. Even if he took a flag/poster, maybe he was not aware that it was a crime. Even if he did took it, he's a kid, and now he is (apparently) dead.
NK leadership is desperately looking to provoke a conflict with US.
It have nothing to do with culture. It's a dictatorship where the leader is a divine figure.
MURICCA FUCK YEAH! *chugs beer*
Anyways poor kid... I can't imagine what he's been through..
cpp_is_king
Member
Nobody even denies that the punishment does not fit the crime, if there even was a crime at all. It's terrible what happened to him.
People are only saying that if you knowingly put a loaded gun to your head a pull the trigger even though only 1/6 rounds are in the chamber, then you bear part of the responsibility for what happens. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯ The term "victim blaming" implies that a person is reasonably expected to be able to do what the victim did and not suffer the same consequences. If someone jumps into a volcano because they want to see what it's like, they will be victim to a horrible death. And yet they can be blamed for making the stupid decision to jump into the volcano.
If you shoot someone and they shoot you back and paralyze you for the rest of your life, you're certainly a victim, and you can be blamed for it.
If there's a tsunami warning and the authorities blast emergency sirens and issue mandatory evacuation orders but you refuse to leave and get swept away, it is your fault.
There are certain things in life where you have to take responsibility for whatever may come. Stepping foot into North Korea -- even as a completely innocent tourist who intends to do absolutely nothing wrong and follow the rules 100% -- is one of those things. I don't care if you go visit the DMZ and you put one fucking toe over the border and they pull you across. It's not that complicated - just don't do it.
I hope he recovers for purely humanitarian reasons. Nobody deserves to suffer like that. But people need to accept that there are no laws over there, and they can literally do whatever the fuck they want for whatever reason they want.
I'm not agreeing with any one of the 'victim blaming' nonsense posts in this thread. If you go out of your way to travel to a hostile totalitarian, hermit country and then proceeded to steal a propaganda banner for laffs as as a trophy to take back to America, you know exactly what sort of trouble you're getting yourself into.
Is it a shame the kid came back as a vegetable? Yes. Did he think clearly about the consequences of committing crimes, as an American, in one of the most hostile nations in the world? No.
Is it a shame the kid came back as a vegetable? Yes. Did he think clearly about the consequences of committing crimes, as an American, in one of the most hostile nations in the world? No.
what
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
To accuse him of stealing, then practically kill him and hope for an escalation with US.
Why gave back a prisoner in this lifeless state ?
Is there any chance he recover ?
At 21, people does dumb things. Most people are totally immature at this age, especially in the West. For me, he was just a kid. It was an error in the first place to send him to NK of course.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
...
There is a video but all you can tell is that someone takes down the poster
At 21 you're an adult. An adult in North Korea no less. Going there you'll be aware of how crazy and strict they are - the whole population is supposed to idolise their supreme leader... and he still fucks about thinking it's a joke.
What's a prisoner in a coma going to do in a labour camp? Why would they keep him, best course of action was to send him back.
But I still want to know what caused him to go into a coma. Maybe a diabetic? Or they smacked him on the head maybe.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I don't understand why anybody would give any kind of credits to the informations NK is giving us.
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