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NeoGAF's Essential RPGs (2012 edition) - Results Posted
- Thread starter kswiston
- Start date
flabberghastly
Member
I must admit I'm extremely disappointed with the turnout for WRPGs. Two absolute classics of JRPGs are represented in the top 5 (Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI), but there isn't even one from the West. (Yes, I know Skyrim is at #4, but I think it's a bit premature to call it a "classic" when it hasn't even been out for 2 months.) Last year both BG2 and Planescape: Torment were up there, so the top 5 was a much more balanced portrayal of the RPG genrescape, but that doesn't really seem to be the case this year.
I also find it interesting that Xenoblade topped Skyrim, which obviously won't be the case for GAF's GOTY voting. Combine this with the above point, and I suspect that this year's thread has much more of a Japanese slant than previous years.
Oh, well.
I also find it interesting that Xenoblade topped Skyrim, which obviously won't be the case for GAF's GOTY voting. Combine this with the above point, and I suspect that this year's thread has much more of a Japanese slant than previous years.
Oh, well.
Alright, I tallied everything that had more than 3 votes. 102 titles received at least 5 points which is a big improvement over last year's 83.
I have a lot that I want to do with the OP, so I am not going to list all of the results now (the end product will be more useful than the numbers!), but here is the top 10 for this year:
1) Chrono Trigger - 75
2) Final Fantasy 6 - 61
3) Xenoblade - 50
4) The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim - 44
5) Persona 4 - 42
6) Suikoden 2 - 38
7 (tie) Baldur's Gate 2 - 37
7 (tie) Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - 37
9) Final Fantasy 7 - 36
10) Demon's Souls - 35
- The top 15 is split more evenly between east and west. 8 to 7.
- 15 of the top 40 are western games. Last year, 16 of the top 40 were western titles.
I have a lot that I want to do with the OP, so I am not going to list all of the results now (the end product will be more useful than the numbers!), but here is the top 10 for this year:
1) Chrono Trigger - 75
2) Final Fantasy 6 - 61
3) Xenoblade - 50
4) The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim - 44
5) Persona 4 - 42
6) Suikoden 2 - 38
7 (tie) Baldur's Gate 2 - 37
7 (tie) Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - 37
9) Final Fantasy 7 - 36
10) Demon's Souls - 35
- The top 15 is split more evenly between east and west. 8 to 7.
- 15 of the top 40 are western games. Last year, 16 of the top 40 were western titles.
ThatStupidLion
Member
Shining force
Shining force 2
Phantasy star 4
Albert odyssey
Diablo 2
Heroes of might and magic 3, Mayb doesn't count as a full fledged RPG
Chrono trigger
FF IX
Pokemon blue
Heroes quest: so you want to be a hero?, quest for glory 1
Runner up:
Superhero league of Hoboken
Edit : noooo late by 9 minutes. Haha
Disappointingly there's a lot of great RPGs I haven't played or beaten...
Shining force 2
Phantasy star 4
Albert odyssey
Diablo 2
Heroes of might and magic 3, Mayb doesn't count as a full fledged RPG
Chrono trigger
FF IX
Pokemon blue
Heroes quest: so you want to be a hero?, quest for glory 1
Runner up:
Superhero league of Hoboken
Edit : noooo late by 9 minutes. Haha
Disappointingly there's a lot of great RPGs I haven't played or beaten...
Any vote changes or late ballots past 9pm EST (Dec 28th) were not counted. Some people may have slipped in a late edit if I didn't notice a late edit, but I tried to tally the most popular games first to eliminate that. I definitely can't accept additions or edits after I started posting the results. It takes long enough to sort through the misspellings and acronym votes without worrying about edits meant to shift the rankings 
The Witcher 2 was tied for #20. Unfortunately, an amazing game with no sequels (or a bunch of crappy sequels) will fair better in these sorts of lists than an amazing game from a series of amazing games. People naturally split their votes, even when there is no mandate to do so. A number of people mentioned preferring the original Witcher, and therefore did not list the sequel (or vice versa). The Fallout series, Final Fantasy series, and Pokemon series all suffer this same fate.
EDIT: Alright, that's it for tonight. Tomorrow I will start posting summaries for the top 50 games in the OPs. I might change up the format from last year slightly, I haven't decided yet. The only request I got was to avoid posting spoilers in the screen shots (which might mean that I need to cut the screen shots altogether. Hard to tell what is or isn't a spoiler for the games I haven't played).
The Witcher 2 was tied for #20. Unfortunately, an amazing game with no sequels (or a bunch of crappy sequels) will fair better in these sorts of lists than an amazing game from a series of amazing games. People naturally split their votes, even when there is no mandate to do so. A number of people mentioned preferring the original Witcher, and therefore did not list the sequel (or vice versa). The Fallout series, Final Fantasy series, and Pokemon series all suffer this same fate.
EDIT: Alright, that's it for tonight. Tomorrow I will start posting summaries for the top 50 games in the OPs. I might change up the format from last year slightly, I haven't decided yet. The only request I got was to avoid posting spoilers in the screen shots (which might mean that I need to cut the screen shots altogether. Hard to tell what is or isn't a spoiler for the games I haven't played).
Xenoblade... damn. Deserved.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Japan killin' em.
Augemitbutter
Member
i have played through an unhealthy amount of RPGs and there is no game i've voted for in the top 5. someday.....
I can't understand why Final Fantasy VII is so low on that list. I think anyone should play it, even if they don't like it. You're on a quest to save the world from imminent destruction yet spend most of your time looting villages, exploring sunken planes an racing chocobos. It's understanding of a threnodial ritual is snowboarding down a mountain slope. It's so weird. I miss games like that.
flabberghastly
Member
So, I did a quick review of the thread and made up a tally of lists that included exclusively JRPGs or WRPGs, and the results seem to confirm my suspicion of a Japanese slant to the voting.
Of the approximately 200 people who voted (I didn't tally this number), 6 posters listed only WRPGs, while a staggering 47 listed only JRPGs. Roughly one quarter of all posters seem to think that only JRPGs are essential.
I have a few questions for those listing only JRPGs: Do you not play WRPGs? Do you play them but dislike them? Do you recognize the merits of WRPGs, but do not consider them essential?
I ask this from the standpoint of someone who is neutral, not someone who has his own WRPG bias. I intentionally made my list an even split between JRPGs and WRPGs to give them equal credit. I'm simply curious why JRPG players seem to be so much more narrow in their selections than others.
Of the approximately 200 people who voted (I didn't tally this number), 6 posters listed only WRPGs, while a staggering 47 listed only JRPGs. Roughly one quarter of all posters seem to think that only JRPGs are essential.
I have a few questions for those listing only JRPGs: Do you not play WRPGs? Do you play them but dislike them? Do you recognize the merits of WRPGs, but do not consider them essential?
I ask this from the standpoint of someone who is neutral, not someone who has his own WRPG bias. I intentionally made my list an even split between JRPGs and WRPGs to give them equal credit. I'm simply curious why JRPG players seem to be so much more narrow in their selections than others.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Its no surprise that there are more JRPGs listed than WRPGs. WRPGs tend to be much more ambitious thus much more likely to be unpolished. I mean with the exception of The Witcher 2 and Deus Ex, pretty much every WRPG I played have some serious sloppy areas. Even Vampire Bloodlines (my 2nd favorite WRPG and probably my 4th favorite RPG) has some serious rough parts in it. I can just forgive it because the good outweighs the bad. And its not like the two games I listed are shining examples. Deus Ex is very linear. I could actually argue that its more like a JRPG than a WRPG. And The Witcher 2 is open but its not THAT open.
JRPGs on the other hand tend to be very spit polished. Its a less complex genre thus there is a lot less room to mess up.
Its the same reason why a near flawless MMO is pretty much non-existent, there is so much content and so much that can go wrong with the genre.
JRPGs on the other hand tend to be very spit polished. Its a less complex genre thus there is a lot less room to mess up.
Its the same reason why a near flawless MMO is pretty much non-existent, there is so much content and so much that can go wrong with the genre.
Nice. I missed voting, but at least 5 or 6 of those would have been in my top 10 as well.
Glad to see Xenoblade getting some love.
You're much more likely to find nostalgic waxing for classic JRPGs than you are for WRPGs. Simple fact of the matter is that a lot more people have played some of the biggest Final Fantasies and other major JRPGs on consoles than have played some of the more niche yet excellent WRPGs, which have historically mainly been on PC. JRPGs were also, strangely enough, a lot more socially acceptable back in the '90s. Or at least that was my experience. WRPGs were often tied to D&D rules, and, well, D&D was a hell of a lot more nerdy in school than having an SNES or Playstation was.
Generally speaking this board (and most major video game boards) tilts more towards consoles than PC, and it's JRPGs that have the bulk of the "classic" legacy on consoles.
I had a feeling something like this would be the case, thanks for running the numbers. I guess the console legacy is still strong on GAF.
People can't change the games they grew up with, and if you're to believe most of the people here, games "age" and become "unplayable" after a certain number of years, so they certainly won't go back and see what they missed.
I'd personally find both types of lists suspect - ones that list only Japanese RPGs or ones that only list western RPGs.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Its a shame. Both genres are fantastic. I really pity those who haven't played much of the other genre or haven't played anything from one of the other passed this gen.
flabberghastly
Member
That's an interesting point, and I'd like to see people respond to this sort of thing. Do people listing only JRPGs consider older WRPGs unplayable? Have they tried playing them, or is this simply a preconceived notion? Likewise, have those only listing WRPGs attempted to play the classic JRPGs, or have they simply dismissed them as hopelessly outdated?
I personally wouldn't consider something like Fallout 2 or Planescape: Torment any more archaic or unplayable than Final Fantasy VI or Chrono Trigger, but I suppose others could hold completely different opinions, especially if they haven't tried the superlative examples on the other side of the divide.
I completely agree. I hope I didn't come across as someone out to attack JRPG fans, because that was not my intent. Had the situation been reversed, I'd like to think I would've responded the same way with regard to the large number of people voting exclusively for WRPGs.
Nah, IV is one of the worst of post-NES FFs, only in front of VIII & XIII, imho (excluding the MMOs, which I haven't experienced). It has a few cool characters, but that's about it. I'd put it something like (or today I feel like the list is as follows):
VI > IV = XII = Tactics > IX > X > XIII > VII > VIII
(haven't played enough of V)
VI = XII = Tactics >>> IX > VII > X > X-2 > IV > VIII > XIII
walking fiend
Member
I was going to answer, then I came across this:
They are not old at all!
The oldest WRPG I have played, is M&M1 (89 I believe), and that game although is still navigatable, but is only more developed compared to text adventures. However, it doesn't get much better until around the 4th or 5th game. Although, it is a first person game and should not be compared with isometric games, but I can't honestly say they are not unplayable now.
Earthpainting
Member
There's no need to be suspicious about the more one-sided lists. I noticed the complete domination of Japanese titles in mine as soon as I was ready to hit the submit button, but I don't regret my picks. 10 games is not a lot, so a bunch of titles I held dear from both sides didn't end up making the cut. There's not much you can do without compromising the integrity of your ranking for arbitrary reasons. While it is possible that a good portion of the voters had limited exposure of either genre, it's just as likely they just prefer some games over the other.
Overall I think the list looks respectable. I'm mostly interested to see if newcomers such as Xenoblade, The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim and Demon's Souls will be able to hold their position in the next few years.
Overall I think the list looks respectable. I'm mostly interested to see if newcomers such as Xenoblade, The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim and Demon's Souls will be able to hold their position in the next few years.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Wow, not a lot of people actually voted. Too bad. And as always it's lacking way too much FFVIII. I'm happy to see a few people mention it, but it doesn't get nearly enough praise anywhere.
flabberghastly
Member
I guess I must clarify that by "older" I meant something more along the lines of "before all the biggest WRPGs were coming out on consoles."
Considering the fact that the oldest RPG I've ever played is Akalabeth (thanks to the iPhone port), I'm well aware of how old the genre is. Also, notice that the JRPGs listed aren't that old either, having released only a few years before Fallout 2.
In response to the question about lack of WRPG in a lot of people's lists, mine has to do with the degree of openness that results in a lack of payoff or feeling of real progress. I sold off Skyrim after putting in 40 hours - I don't disagree with all of the accolades being heaped on it, but after all that time, I just didn't feel much sense of accomplishment. The quests just don't incorporate enough set pieces to keep me interested. I personally have just had a lot more fun in my 15 hours (so far) with Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky - it is wonderfully written, with hilarious characterizations, different looking vistas, and a more strategic battle system. Different strokes, I guess.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Not all WRPGs are sandbox games like Skyrim, you know, classics like BG are known for their stories too, while others like Planescape are known for the multiple paths in said stories, etc... Hell, even Bethesda games have a main plot you can follow (though imo they suck). If you didn't do that, it was by choice, and choices are good too... But yeah, one game doesn't equal all.
I'm sure that's true. I'm thinking that a lot of the thread responses came from people like me who grew up with JRPGs and whose exposure to WRPGs is limited to Elder Scrolls 4 & 5, plus Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I should add that Fallout 3 was in my top 10 list though!
In regards to WRPGs, I did not add any to my list because I don't play them. I just don't find most of them aesthetically pleasing. I can see why some people really enjoy those games and I am glad they enjoy them, but I find myself unable to play most of them. It just feels like a totally different genre to me, which does not pique my interest, the same as shooters and other similar games.
To be honest, when I first read the thread and started compiling my list, I did not even think of WRPGs at all, since I do not play them. It was only later when I saw the other posts that I noticed I only posted JRPGs. I can't really explain it, but to me I automatically relate RPG to JRPG in my head.
To be honest, when I first read the thread and started compiling my list, I did not even think of WRPGs at all, since I do not play them. It was only later when I saw the other posts that I noticed I only posted JRPGs. I can't really explain it, but to me I automatically relate RPG to JRPG in my head.
A lot of it is that JRPGs are generally simpler and more accessible than WRPGs. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the former were generally console games, while the latter were generally PC games. If you go back to an earlier JRPG, it's not hard to figure out what's going on. If you go back to an earlier WRPG, it's more complex, and it takes more time to figure out what's up.
Phonomezer
Banned
Chrono Trigger?
I didn't really enjoy it that much tbh.
I didn't really enjoy it that much tbh.
More people played KOTOR, obviously.
(but yeah, Torment definitely belongs on a top 10 RPG list)
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
No, it doesn't. You might think it does, but you reallllly don't want to open that can of worms.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I know it's sacrilege to say anything bad about the game, but there is a reason why it's not as high as some would like. Great story. Great premise. Arguably the best writing in a video game. Pretty middling-to-terrible gameplay. You play PS:T, you try to avoid anything resembling combat, not because it's part of the RPing (well, it certainly can be, which is one of pluses) but because you do not want to have to suffer through the battles.
This and Arcanum need proper remakes. Possibly by a studio like (but not) Telltale who focus on RPGs, rather than point and clicks.
Well, this is willful on your part, and not indicative of anything else. There are so many, and so many varied, WRPGs out there that to say that none appeal to you means you're the opposite side of the coin of people who "don't play JRPGs because of all that anime crap."
I wonder where M&M6: Mandate of Heaven ranked? It's by far the best M&M game. I have very fond memories of that game.
Would you not classify Heroes 3 as a strategy game? It would easily have made my list if i had thought of it as an RPG. Just wondering what the consensus is here.
I can only speak for myself personally, but I have not been able to find WRPG game that really appealed to me. First of all the aesthetics are usually not my cup of tea. WRPGs, (as well as many PC games I do not play) very often have a very realistic approach in the character designs. However they always feel a bit "off" to me. I am not stating that JRPGs are perfect, personally I am not too fond of the all those moe games that have been popular lately either.
Another common theme is the grittiness in many of those games. Realistic blood and dark settings. It's just not something I enjoy.
Now newer games such as Skyrim or the Witcher 2 actually do look interesting. The setting and lore does actually interest me. But I am not a fan of the combat at all. It just has the same combat that many PC games have. I grew up playing console games and mainly JRPGs. I love turn-based games and when I play action games I like really fast paced over the top games.
I am not an expert on many WRPG games, but many also employ a first person perspective, something I have never gotten used to. I know that in games such as Skyrim you can change it to third person, but the combat sadly does not appeal to me.
KOTOR does seem interesting and I may even try it. And I do admit the WRPG genre has gotten some variety lately with games such Mass Effect or Fallout, but I am just not a fan of shooting stuff in games and not too big on the space marines either. :/
I can definitely see why people enjoy the games and I respect that, but I just prefer a different genre of games.
But I do like how people voted for both JRPGs and WRPGs. The thread did ask for us to post our favourite RPG games and I respect the choices people made. It's also very interesting to see the variety of tastes people have.
It's referred to as a turn-based strategy pretty much everywhere. Just like Dynasty Warriors games are called action games for obvious reasons, despite having level ups, stats and customization.
regarding the jrpg/wrpg split:
1) There are a lot more Jrpgs. As such, there are a lot more quality jrpgs.
2) Jrpgs are typically console based and despite the PC gaming master race's shouts to the contrary, this forum is primarily console-centric.
3) As much as I enjoy them, computer RPGs have not aged as well as console rpgs. The graphics are obviously outdated in both classic jrpgs and classic crpgs, but due to archaic UIs and extremely dense rulesets, it is hard to get into a computer rpg released before 1995. Even the best games (Ultima VII for example) take a lot of initial patience as you get used to the quirks and controls before you can start enjoying yourself. Compare that to contemporary games like Secret of Mana or Final Fantasy IV-VI where the only barrier to entry is the graphics. Your average 18 year old going back to play the classics released before his time will have an easier time getting into SNES RPGs than he will DOS-based RPGs.
Here is another reason for the difference. For some reason, when we get a strategy/rpg hybrid from Japan, we think of them as rpgs. When we get a strategy/rpg hybrid from NA/EU, we think of them as strategy games. How is HoMM any less an RPG than Fire Emblem or Tactics Ogre? Yet even I didn't think to include the game when voting.
1) There are a lot more Jrpgs. As such, there are a lot more quality jrpgs.
2) Jrpgs are typically console based and despite the PC gaming master race's shouts to the contrary, this forum is primarily console-centric.
3) As much as I enjoy them, computer RPGs have not aged as well as console rpgs. The graphics are obviously outdated in both classic jrpgs and classic crpgs, but due to archaic UIs and extremely dense rulesets, it is hard to get into a computer rpg released before 1995. Even the best games (Ultima VII for example) take a lot of initial patience as you get used to the quirks and controls before you can start enjoying yourself. Compare that to contemporary games like Secret of Mana or Final Fantasy IV-VI where the only barrier to entry is the graphics. Your average 18 year old going back to play the classics released before his time will have an easier time getting into SNES RPGs than he will DOS-based RPGs.
Here is another reason for the difference. For some reason, when we get a strategy/rpg hybrid from Japan, we think of them as rpgs. When we get a strategy/rpg hybrid from NA/EU, we think of them as strategy games. How is HoMM any less an RPG than Fire Emblem or Tactics Ogre? Yet even I didn't think to include the game when voting.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
^wut? Infinity Engine type games are still beautiful and super simple and intuitive to play with just mouse clicks at that... Having complex rulesets is another thing altogether, which can exist in both JRPGs and WRPGs and can also be a good thing (as well as bad in some cases) and I don't think early D&D versions are all that complex anyway, at least not the more limited game implementations (I never played p&p but got the hang of BG and IWD pretty fast).
Now if we go to even older WRPGs they can start to get convoluted and hard to play these days (though it's far from a rule still) but then if we go that far back there barely are any JRPGs to compare to so it's not a fair comparison... Or if there are they're super simple games that aren't listed in anyone's best of the best anyway.
Now if we go to even older WRPGs they can start to get convoluted and hard to play these days (though it's far from a rule still) but then if we go that far back there barely are any JRPGs to compare to so it's not a fair comparison... Or if there are they're super simple games that aren't listed in anyone's best of the best anyway.
Baldur's Gate came out in 1998. I am talking about the DOS games. Seriously, go back a few years further than Fallout 1 and the games get archaic pretty quickly.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Most of these lists have 90s and onward games anyway. Though, again, it's not a rule that older games are hard to play, plenty employed simple mouse driven interfaces or simple controls and always on-screen directions of what key does what... But yeah, older games being hard to get into can't be the reason when it's mostly newer than those games that are listed from both sides...
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I can only speak for myself personally, but I have not been able to find WRPG game that really appealed to me. First of all the aesthetics are usually not my cup of tea. WRPGs, (as well as many PC games I do not play) very often have a very realistic approach in the character designs. However they always feel a bit "off" to me. I am not stating that JRPGs are perfect, personally I am not too fond of the all those moe games that have been popular lately either.
Another common theme is the grittiness in many of those games. Realistic blood and dark settings. It's just not something I enjoy.
Now newer games such as Skyrim or the Witcher 2 actually do look interesting. The setting and lore does actually interest me. But I am not a fan of the combat at all. It just has the same combat that many PC games have. I grew up playing console games and mainly JRPGs. I love turn-based games and when I play action games I like really fast paced over the top games.
I am not an expert on many WRPG games, but many also employ a first person perspective, something I have never gotten used to. I know that in games such as Skyrim you can change it to third person, but the combat sadly does not appeal to me.
KOTOR does seem interesting and I may even try it. And I do admit the WRPG genre has gotten some variety lately with games such Mass Effect or Fallout, but I am just not a fan of shooting stuff in games and not too big on the space marines either. :/
I can definitely see why people enjoy the games and I respect that, but I just prefer a different genre of games.
But I do like how people voted for both JRPGs and WRPGs. The thread did ask for us to post our favourite RPG games and I respect the choices people made. It's also very interesting to see the variety of tastes people have.
See, this is what I mean. You are trying to compare things that are so very, very different then throwing away the results. Look, you can like what you like, no big deal. But how would you respond if somebody said they dont play JRPGs because they all look and play alike, then give Persona and Final Fantasy VI as examples? Plus, you say they've gotten some variety "lately" but then mention Fallout. That series has been around for 15 years. Same with Deus Ex, System Shock, etc.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I am aware of how very different the games are. I am aware it is like comparing a Grandia game to Persona to Final Fantasy. What I attempted to get across was that even though there is such a huge diversity, I personally have not found a series or game that can be classified as a WRPG that I looked interesting enough or that I enjoyed enough as the games I usually play.
And to be honest I did not know that some of those series have been around that long. I do not play PC games, only MMOs. Apart from that I grew up with consoles. :/ I had friends who played PC games but I was never interested in the genres they played, so I guess I never tried out many of those older pc games.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I think you may have misunderstood me. I am aware of how very different the games are. I am aware it is like comparing a Grandia game to Persona to Final Fantasy. What I attempted to get across was that even though there is such a huge diversity, I personally have not found a series or game that can be classified as a WRPG that I looked interesting enough or that I enjoyed enough as the games I usually play.
Like I said, no big deal. As somebody who plays and enjoys all types of RPGs I just find it distressing that you're missing out on so many great games. C'est la vie.
If you grew up NEVER playing games on PC, the older WRPGs are really hard to get into. Not because of lack of interest, not because they aren't worthwhile, but because they are a wholly different experience from anything present on consoles and in a lot of ways are vastly different from things you find on the PC today. In my experience, there's a pretty big learning curve and people who grew up with these games aren't a whole lot of help in pointing you in the right direction, because to them it's simply second nature.
There are certainly games that are worth that effort, but for me it's been enough of a time dedication that I still feel like I haven't had a pure experience of Planescape or Baldur's Gate 2 yet. Both could potentially one day make my own top ten list (particularly Planescape) but I don't think people can fault gamers who don't put in the time or effort to play the classics.
And to be fair: Persona 2 requires a certain amount of effort to push through too, but seems to be worth it thus far.
There are certainly games that are worth that effort, but for me it's been enough of a time dedication that I still feel like I haven't had a pure experience of Planescape or Baldur's Gate 2 yet. Both could potentially one day make my own top ten list (particularly Planescape) but I don't think people can fault gamers who don't put in the time or effort to play the classics.
And to be fair: Persona 2 requires a certain amount of effort to push through too, but seems to be worth it thus far.