What can of worms? Two threads, two lists. Or even one thread, two lists. This would give more Wrpgs a better chance to get noticed, instead of being buried in a sea of Jrpgs.
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NeoGAF's Essential RPGs (2012 edition) - Results Posted
- Thread starter kswiston
- Start date
What can of worms? Two threads, two lists. Or even one thread, two lists. This would give more Wrpgs a better chance to get noticed, instead of being buried in a sea of Jrpgs.
The OP has been updated with the results and game summaries for the top 25 titles.
Here were the votes for #11-25 for those interested. A number of ties.
11) Planescape: Torment - 34
12) Vampire: The Masquerade - 33
13) Diablo 2 - 32
14) Final Fantasy Tactics - 32
15) Mass Effect - 32
16) SMT: Nocturne - 31
17) Valkyria Chronicles - 31
18) Final Fantasy 12 - 29
19) Dark Souls - 28
20) Final Fantasy 9 - 27
21) The Witcher 2 - 27
22) World of Warcraft - 26
23) Xenogears - 26
24) Skies of Arcadia - 25
25) The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind - 25
Here were the votes for #11-25 for those interested. A number of ties.
11) Planescape: Torment - 34
12) Vampire: The Masquerade - 33
13) Diablo 2 - 32
14) Final Fantasy Tactics - 32
15) Mass Effect - 32
16) SMT: Nocturne - 31
17) Valkyria Chronicles - 31
18) Final Fantasy 12 - 29
19) Dark Souls - 28
20) Final Fantasy 9 - 27
21) The Witcher 2 - 27
22) World of Warcraft - 26
23) Xenogears - 26
24) Skies of Arcadia - 25
25) The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind - 25
Mattakuevan
Member
You have the FF9 title posted twice btw.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What is Etrian Odyssey? Published by Atlus, features a Dragon Quest style battle system, but like many dungeon crawlers it takes heavy inspiration from the western PC games of the 80s
Why are Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest JRPGs? Almost everything I can think of about them (turn based battles, linear story without much diversion) is violated by Xenoblade and yet everyone knows Xenoblade is a JRPG.
Is the split just based on developer location? If so, is Costume Quest a WRPG despite having much more in common with Japanese design philosophy then it does with something like Oblivion or Fallout? And if it is just based on developer location then whats the point of the split?
Why would two radically different styles of game like Planescape and Morrowind be grouped together but separate from Final Fantasy XII?
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Anybody who thinks that old WRPGs are more accessible than old JRPGs either have grew up with them or haven't played them. I mean from a design standpoint they are uninviting enough but add in the UI problems and holy shit. It took me quite some time before I was able to comfortably play Black Isle's games.
Whatever. Its number 20 people! It was an accident I didn't highlight it for one extra point! And glad to see Bloodlines so high.
God damn it! Why did I forget to highlight The Witcher 2!!!!
Whatever. Its number 20 people! It was an accident I didn't highlight it for one extra point! And glad to see Bloodlines so high.
Thanks for catching that. Just forgot to change the jpg number.
The Witcher 2 was tied for #20. The original is tied for #39.
I will eventually post summaries for the top 50 and list placements for 51-100. Working on summaries currently.
The Return of
Banned
I was going to vote, but the deadline was honestly too close for to decide on top 10 considering around what time of year it was. Hopefully, I'll have a set list by next year.
Sir Garbageman
Member
Top 10 is way too JRPG heavy for my tastes, but all in all solid results.
The list is not about making sure your personal tastes get noticed. It's about what GAF as a whole thinks are the most essential RPGs. If you disagree with the list, well that's what your post is for.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I've been rectifying this lately with Witcher 2 and Geneforge (thanks Technomancer and Steam sales!) but as one glance at my list can show, I've gravitated towards games that borrow liberally from the other direction (SMT3, VS, DDSs, EO2, Tactics Ogre from the east, WoW from the west...yes it has a good bit of parallel evolved aspects that mirror JRPGs).
With how much additional crossing into each other's waters that's been going on this generation like with Xenoblade and the ME series, (the like we ain't seen since the mid 80s), this is a skill worth learning for everyone from both sides. Jump on in, the waters are fine!
Fewer WRPGs had strong art direction back in the day imo. Fallout and Anachronox are some of the few I can name off the top of my head then which had distinctive, cohesive, and influencial art direction that had a big hand both in the building of their game's whole and their impacts.
Manmademan
Member
as someone else pointed out, this forum is really console heavy, and JRPG's traditionally made up the overwhelming amount of RPGs available to console gamers.
Personally I suspect Skyrim and Xenoblade might be a bit high (3rd and 4th of all time? really? Time will tell on those..) But most picks were respectable.
Awesome Animals
Member
Great job on the OP and everything else in this thread.
A very, very small percentage of Jrpgs play like Wrpgs. In the vast majority of the cases, the delineations accurately represent the respective gamestyle. Moreover, even the more western-style JRPGs do not feel like Wrpgs, even if they share some elements.
I don't see these small number of exceptions as causing any problems. If it is from Japan, it is a JRPG.
I voted for nothing but Jrpgs, so I've got no personal gripes with the list. Since one of the aims of the thread is to give exposure to what GAF feels are the top Rpgs though, it would make sense to give the top Wrpgs a chance to stand out.
we.are.the.armada
Member
kswiston, amazing thread and work! Thank you!
Also, I will name my main character in Persona 5 after you if you use this image instead of the Dojima one.
Chie <3
Also, I will name my main character in Persona 5 after you if you use this image instead of the Dojima one.
Chie <3
MonolithSoft is a beast. I can't see what they come up with next
that isn't a licensed DBZ game
we.are.the.armada
Member
Yeah, I've always followed guys like Takahashi-san and Tokita-san since I consider them boss tier. I can't wait to play Xenosaga, I'm glad to see it so high up on the ranking. And Bravely Default may end up being a pleasant surprise as well. 2012 will be a pretty good year for RPGs.
mjemirzian
Banned
Well it suggests RPGamers value story/characters, power trip fantasies, and hours played over other game metrics such as skill measurement, balance, or strategic challenge and variety, unlike fans of most other genres.
we.are.the.armada
Member
Yeah, I feel the same way about Tokita-san.
Damn Chrono Trigger was like the friggin Led Zepplin of JRPGs with all that talent in one spot.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but Tokita-san also had a slight involvement with FFVI - he suggested that they do the intro with the magiteks walking through the snow in mode7 with that music playing alongside the credits.
DQ5 made the top 50.
I have finished the summaries for the rest of the top 50. Just finding images and making the title bars. Everything should be up in the next hour or so.
Phonomezer
Banned
Top 25 is pretty dire. Especially the top 10.
No Panzer Dragoon Saga and no Fallout in the Top 25. lol.
No Panzer Dragoon Saga and no Fallout in the Top 25. lol.
Those results are disgusting. Xenogears number 22? Suikoden 2 not #1 (I wouldn't have actually expected this but too bad) A game like Xenoblade and Skyrim being ahead of a holy grail game like Final Fantasy VII? Lufia II getting no love?
What is up with RPG fans? It's like this is the generation they have forsaken their heritage. Skyrim ahead of a game like Planescape for Western RPG fans? Xenoblade ahead of a game like Xenogears for Japanese RPG fans? Is that a Nintendo fans not having played RPGs for 2 generations kind of thing and PC gamers not having Planescape on Steam thing?
What is up with RPG fans? It's like this is the generation they have forsaken their heritage. Skyrim ahead of a game like Planescape for Western RPG fans? Xenoblade ahead of a game like Xenogears for Japanese RPG fans? Is that a Nintendo fans not having played RPGs for 2 generations kind of thing and PC gamers not having Planescape on Steam thing?
Your saying people should vote based on their own personal nostalgia rather than what they feel are the strongest titles?
I am saying the opposite effect is happening, the recent games are affecting their vote as they don't have the older games as fresh in their memory.
Do you really think Xenoblade and Skyrim are the 3rd and 4th most essential RPGs of all time?
Incendiary
Banned
I would say it's far from disgusting. In fact, I'd say it's actually a pretty good list, but probably would be more refined with more votes. Compare this thread to the GOTY thread where there's nearly four times as many pages of voters. The sample size for this one is much smaller, and while I guess I can see complaints about the top 10, I think it's a good overall list for the number of people that put their opinion in.
Maybe, just maybe, these games are actually good? Just because it's new doesn't automatically mean it's terrible. And just because it's old doesn't make it automatically better. You also need to factor in the ability to acquire said games. Games like Vagrant Story, Xenogears, etc. were hard to get a hold of before their recent addition to PSN. I have both purchased but haven't gotten around to delving into either yet. Similarly, I want to play Suikoden II but it's nearly impossible to get a copy.
Also, I'm personally glad that Final Fantasy VII is in 9th. FFVII is a great game, but far from the best of the genre despite its mainstream notoriety.
I'm actually surprised (and happy!) that Alpha Protocol made the top 50. It's a great game that got the shaft for being buggy and I really hope more people take a look at it.
Well, stories are a big part of the draw for RPGs.
I think with respect to SRPGs you're right though. Games like Disgaea and Valkyria Chronicles and Disgaea are poor on strategy and great on story beat out some of the better SRPGs.
BTW I don't mean my comments disrespect to your thread as that OP is so good.
Xenoblade is one of my favourite games of all time now. It's better than Xenogears, in my opinion. And it tries, with varying success, to spice up a pretty tired formula.
It's a personal favourite, and it's a JRPG trying to change JRPGs, so it's essential in the growth of the genre.
Really? Game looked good to me but it really didn't look that innovative, looks like FFXII tbh.
EDIT: And if it is like XII, the removal of a gambit like system is possibly a step backwards.
The vast majority of the games are actually older titles, and Xenoblade and Skyrim, while new, do seem to be worthy of their high ranking. If you think about it, all this voting is doing is showing the games that have the broadest appeal, as evidenced by how many different people voted for them.
Furthermore, the OP discouraged voting for obvious picks like FF games. My list, for example, would have had half of it as just FF titles, if I was listing what I truly felt were the best. So a good portion of the voters were simply listing games they want to get more recognition, as suggested in the OP.
I haven't played either Xenoblade or Skyrim yet, but given that Skyrim seems to be the best Elder Scrolls game, and Xenoblade is being heralded by many as the second coming of the messiah, I don't see a problem with many people including them in their lists.
I love the exploration-heavy direction of Xenoblade but this really isn't true at all. Resonance of Fate, Demon's Souls and Valkyria Chronicles are probably the only JRPGs this gen that tries to innovate on the core mechanics of the genre. Xenoblade doesn't do anything new if you have played FFXII. Great game but not an innovative one.
Lumpy Onion
Member
Hardly a surprise. It's ridiculously expensive to buy the US version. Hell, as much of a JRPG junkie as I am I don't think I will ever play it because of the price.
Alright, I may make some tweaks tomorrow, but the OPs are pretty much done.
I included the raw point scores for every game that received at least 4 points near the end if you were curious about the titles that missed out on the Top 100. I would have posted results for every game voted on, but I got a little lazy near the end and stopped recording/formatting titles that received 1 or 2 points.
Done
I included the raw point scores for every game that received at least 4 points near the end if you were curious about the titles that missed out on the Top 100. I would have posted results for every game voted on, but I got a little lazy near the end and stopped recording/formatting titles that received 1 or 2 points.
Done
Honestly, when I first played FFXII, I was bored to tears by the battle system and gave up. :/
But now that I loved Blade, I'm gonna go back to XII and try again. Different tastes over the years and such.
I dunno, I think a lot of the little things are innovative for JRPGs, like how the quests are handled, how travel is handled. It just felt really fresh to me. Also, playing the game for 100 hours and not ever getting bored with the battle system, it must be doing something right, haha.
I couldn't get into Resonance of Fate, haven't tried Demon's Souls (scared off by all the "most difficult game ever" talk, haha), but I did play VC. It's a great game, and yeah, the battle system is fantastic for an SRPG. I didn't include it though, because the story just fell apart at the end, for me. Which made me more sad than it should have, because I enjoyed the beginning so much.
Also, totally different conversation, but Panzer Dragoon, I agree with GrumpyAlien. I go back every like...year or two to see if the game is ever cheaper, because I wanted to try it so badly. ...Nope.