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StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

H_Prestige said:
You don't need 6+ years to make a great game. Even if you are located in Japan.

Very true, they don't need it, but if they're allowed it, I certainly don't think it's going to hurt.

Versus would be out if it had needed to be. While it might have the stench of development hell, it's more publication hell I imagine.

I still believe it could be incredible. This isn't DNF.

Paracelsus · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
Probably about 2-3 years ago.

Believe me or not that's what I thought you were going to answer. =/

I think S-E will be sorely disappointed then.

They want another FFXI and DQX is much more likely to be than FFXIV-2.

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

There is no question at this point that Versus is both a money sink and a talent sink. It has been draining resources for years. But that's not automatically a completely negative thing. It can pay off if the resources sunk into it eventually achieves the desired result. That's something we cannot really answer at the moment.

sn00zer · Jan 18, 2012

Still holding on to this could be one of the best RPGs ever....JRPG, realtime combat, FF art team, modern day setting for a FF game
seems really original and the style is just slick, one of the few games that just looks classy visually

Kyoufu · Jan 18, 2012

I just hope it can match or maybe even surpass FFXIII's sales. I don't know if that is possible on one platform though.

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

sn00zer said:
Still holding on to this could be one of the best RPGs ever....JRPG, realtime combat, FF art team, modern day setting for a FF game
seems really original and the style is just slick, one of the few games that just looks classy visually

The decadence the game is visually drenched in is pretty strange, I personally think it's awesome, but I'm kind of surprised SE would allow anything so different with a budget as huge as this one must have been.

H_Prestige · Jan 18, 2012

Kyoufu said:
I just hope it can match or maybe even surpass FFXIII's sales. I don't know if that is possible on one platform though.

I think FFXIII damaged the brand more than most think. That's why XIII-2's sales are so low. I'm pretty sure Versus XIII will suffer because of it as well, and the game's sales potential was never quite as high as XIII in the first place (not a "main" title, no 360 version).

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

StuBurns said:
The decadence the game is visually drenched in is pretty strange, I personally think it's awesome, but I'm kind of surprised SE would allow anything so different with a budget as huge as this one must have been.

I don't really feel that Versus is particularly unusual as a "bold new direction" project as far as Squaresoft's history is concerned. There are other games which fit the pattern of them allowing for major shake ups in their previously established patterns: Parasite Eve, Chrono Cross, Kingdom Hearts, FFXII.

Each of those games were high budget ventures with cutting edge production values, and in some cases involve the formation of development teams which did not exist before. They were also distinctly different from either the previous game(s) in the series they're in, or completely different from other products which the company made up until that point.

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

X-2's sales were lower too, I don't think XIII did any long term damage really.

Versus could outsell it, but so could anything, it's a case of how much marketing is done, and how well it's done.

If Versus remains exclusive, we'll probably see Sony get behind it more than they did for XIII (and they did some marketing for that anyway).

But that's a serious if, I doubt it personally.

duckroll said:
I don't really feel that Versus is particularly unusual as a "bold new direction" project as far as Squaresoft's history is concerned. There are other games which fit the pattern of them allowing for major shake ups in their previously established patterns: Parasite Eve, Chrono Cross, Kingdom Hearts, FFXII.

Each of those games were high budget ventures with cutting edge production values, and in some cases involve the formation of development teams which did not exist before. They were also distinctly different from either the previous game(s) in the series they're in, or completely different from other products which the company made up until that point.

I'm not sure I'd agree with your examples really. The first two don't seem all that major budget. Chrono Cross can't have even been comparable to a Final Fantasy on PS1 given it's scope and reused areas. FFXII cost a small fortune, but still strikes me as more Final Fantasy visually than Versus is. But I guess I agree in a sense, they've always been willing to take risks in the direction of their franchises, and maybe Versus isn't the risk it looks in reality.

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

StuBurns said:
X-2's sales were lower too, I don't think XIII did any long term damage really.

Not significantly lower.

Final Fantasy X - 2,323,463
Final Fantasy X-2 - 1,960,937

Final Fantasy XIII - 1,904,313
Final Fantasy XIII-2 - 744,297

FFXIII-2 will probably eventually sell 800k or so. That would make it less than 50% of FFXIII's original sales, which were already low in Japan to begin with. There is no question that FFXIII has demonstrated a substantial damage to the brand in Japan.

jorgeton · Jan 18, 2012

I think SE's biggest mistake was announcing Versus way too early. They should've kept the lid on it until last year or until closer to launch. But I'm sure they've learned some lessons during this whole ordeal.

Also, I highly doubt this game will remain a PS3 exclusive.

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
There is no question that FFXIII has demonstrated a substantial damage to the brand in Japan.

How do you know that? Because XIII-2 sold bad? I played the demo, it seems like trash, and XIII wasn't great. I think we have to wait for a Versus XIII or XV to know if XIII has hurt the brand no?

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

jorgeton said:
I think SE's biggest mistake was announcing everything way too early. They should've kept the lid on it until last year or until closer to launch. But I'm sure they've learned some lessons during this whole ordeal.

This statement is now true for pretty much everything in the 00s era.

-Pyromaniac- · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
FFXIII-2 will probably eventually sell 800k or so. That would make it less than 50% of FFXIII's original sales, which were already low in Japan to begin with. There is no question that FFXIII has demonstrated a substantial damage to the brand in Japan.

the worst part is square probably knows this, yet still decided to go through with the xiii-2 cash in. Not enough to release a game that causes substantial damage to the brand but a sequel to that game? It's like they just don't care!

But hey if it's funding Versus I don't care either. But it certainly only made the brand worse by releasing the sequel I would think.

DukeTogo1300 · Jan 18, 2012

It would seem all my Verses hype has evaporated. Now I know.

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

StuBurns said:
How do you know that? Because XIII-2 sold bad? I played the demo, it seems like trash, and XIII wasn't great. I think we have to wait for a Versus XIII or XV to know if XIII has hurt the brand no?

I should clarify that I refer to the "brand" in regards to how S-E markets the current FFXIII brand. I feel that on a whole "FF" is rather meaningless as an overall brand to begin with. Each game can be so different, and there are so many spinoffs, it doesn't really mean anything anything. I think we can all agree that the FFCC brand for example, is in the fucking sewage pit in terms of value now.

In the same way, I was simply showing that FFX -> FFX-2 as brand impact shows that people liked FFX, and were willing to buy the sequel. You said it sold less, but it didn't sell significantly less at all. On the other hand, there is no question that the drop from FFXIII -> FFXIII-2 indicates a huge brand trashing in regards to how people view this particular FF brand in Japan. As long as Versus continues to be associated with the Fabula Nova Crystalis brand and being positioned as a "FFXIII" game in any way, I'm sure that will hurt it.

DemiMatt · Jan 18, 2012

Cant believe this game was announced in 06, I remember the CD it came on and how hyped it was, but since Nomura is behind the machine it doesn't suprise me.

As for the KH3D Ending, I wonder what kind of ending it was if it was unorthodox to Nomura, must have been some mindblowing, Sea Salt Popsicle running out type of event.

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

I did think that's possibly what you meant after I posted that, fair enough, I'd agree with that.

I know a lot of GAFfers spit at the thought, but I still think they should just make Versus into XV, it's not at all too late, there's been virtually no serious marketing. The kind of people who currently care about it are the kind of people that would very quickly hear about a name change.

EDIT: I was a little slow, this post was a reply to ducky's of course.

Auto_aim1 · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
He's not really being secretive. In the interview he says that the day before he just checked on some press materials for VersusXIII, which indicates they're going to reveal more details soon. As for the major unveiling of the game to the public in an event, they have nothing planned yet. There is no event like the Jan 2011 conference planned right now, so he honestly doesn't know when they'll be showing it this year, but when they do he will not just have video footage, but it'll be playable so people can have faith in the project.

Yeah, I just said that because we know so little about the game after all these years. I thought it was inevitable that after FFXIII-2 comes out they will be sharing plenty of new details with us, but it's a little heartening that he's saying the game will be running on "actual hardware".

StuBurns said:
How do you know that? Because XIII-2 sold bad? I played the demo, it seems like trash, and XIII wasn't great. I think we have to wait for a Versus XIII or XV to know if XIII has hurt the brand no?

I think the lack of consumer interest in FFXIII-2 shows that FFXIII did hurt the brand in a way. Because when you look at FFX-2, it did pretty well compared to XIII-2. Now I don't know what the western sales will be like for XIII-2, but I'm expecting the same thing that happened in Japan i.e., a huge decline.

KTallguy · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
There is no question at this point that Versus is both a money sink and a talent sink. It has been draining resources for years. But that's not automatically a completely negative thing. It can pay off if the resources sunk into it eventually achieves the desired result. That's something we cannot really answer at the moment.

Just have to pray that it does pay off. I like what we have seen, I hope that they eventually release something great. For all the time they're spending there better be a TON of content in the game.

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

StuBurns said:
I did think that's possibly what you meant after I posted that, fair enough, I'd agree with that.

I know a lot of GAFfers spit at the thought, but I still think they should just make Versus into XV, it's not at all too late, there's been virtually no serious marketing. The kind of people who currently care about it and the kind of people that would very quickly hear about a name change.

EDIT: I was a little slow, this post was a reply to ducky's of course.

I don't think it's too late to change the name either, but I do feel that there are issues with changing the name to "FFXV" in particular. It's probably safer for everyone involved if they found a good alternative title which doesn't sound moronic but retains the FF title. But knowing Nomura, if they were to suggest a title change at this point and leave the ball in his court, we'll be buying Final Fantasy Parallax Substitution next year. :/

Auto_aim1 · Jan 18, 2012

KTallguy said:
Just have to pray that it does pay off. I like what we have seen, I hope that they eventually release something great. For all the time they're spending there better be a TON of content in the game.

Time != more content, though. They may be having genuine issues wrt development that may be causing all these delays. I don't know whether I should called it a "delay" because technically they never announced any release date, but still for a game revealed in 2006(?), I think it sort of applies. A Lot of people are/were interested in Versus, and taking so much time to even start drip-feeding new details may actually end up being detrimental to the game, even though the quality is top-notch.

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

Meisadragon said:
Time != more content, though. They may be having genuine issues wrt development that may be causing all these delays. I don't know whether I should called it a "delay" because technically they never announced any release date, but still for a game revealed in 2006(?), I think it sort of applies. A Lot of people are/were interested in Versus, and taking so much time to even start drip-feeding new details may actually end up being detrimental to the game, even though the quality is top-notch.

At this point the original announcement is completely irrelevant and Square Enix knows it. Any worthwhile marketing for Versus will only start when they are ready and confident that the game will be out within [x] months. Once they are sure, it won't be drip-feeding news, but actual marketing. Once that starts, nothing before that really matters anymore.

DMeisterJ · Jan 18, 2012

I'm having such an issue still caring about the release of this game since it seems like it's never coming. I mean, five or six years with barely any real information is a long time, nevermind the fact that we haven't seen it in a real-life playable form yet.

I agree with the name change idea. As much as I liked XIII and will buy XIII-2, a lot of people don't feel the same way that I do, obviously. FFXV would be fine, or Final Fantasy Versus (though people might think it's a fighting game) or something else. They switched Agito XIII to Type-0 and nothing of value was lost (aside from a shit name).

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

I don't have an issue with the early announcement. Hollywood runs a massively tighter ship than the game industry, and we know about basically every film as soon as a development deal meets a spec script. It can, and often is five or six years before anything is even filmed. It was interesting that after a few years of XIII trailers, once they really started the marketing, the next trailer was put online as 'Trailer 1'.

In fact, it's useful to the industry to know what films are coming when. If Avatar 2 is November 2016, the studios need to know that to plan their fall releases around it etc. It was interesting that MS announced that CoD exclusive content window for releases every November for however many years it was. We all knew there would always be a CoD then, but to have it so official is very useful for people.

Announcing games as exclusive and going back on that on the other hand is bullshit. Not because third party exclusives are exciting or anything, but if anyone bought a PS3 over a 360 for FFXIII, SE and Sony should pretty much hand that cash back over, it was practically stolen.

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

StuBurns said:
Announcing games as exclusive and going back on that on the other hand is bullshit. Not because third party exclusives are exciting or anything, but if anyone bought a PS3 over a 360 for FFXIII, SE and Sony should pretty much hand that cash back over, it was practically stolen.

Nah, this is a hilarious claim. No developer or publisher owes anyone anything until there is a product released. Anyone who buys hardware in advance to "wait" for releases which might never materialize only have themselves to blame. Poor consumer habits should not be rewarded in any way.

Grieves · Jan 18, 2012

I wonder if they have got this working on Xbox yet.

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
Nah, this is a hilarious claim. No developer or publisher owes anyone anything until there is a product released. Anyone who buys hardware in advance to "wait" for releases which might never materialize only have themselves to blame. Poor consumer habits should not be rewarded in any way.

That's how gaming works for most people I think. It's fine that most of GAF owns all the platforms, we're more 'devoted' than most, but lots of people only buy one, and they do it based on what is meant to come out. It's unfair to change that I think, within reason anyway. If you really waited, you'd need to wait till the end of the generation to see how all the cards fell, that's kind of extreme. Imagine waiting for Versus to make your decision, fucking hell.

jorgeton · Jan 18, 2012

re: name change, they have to separate it from the FFXIII brand since that is its own thing now (XIII-2, XIII-3)

So... Final Fantasy XVersus

right?

duckroll · Jan 18, 2012

StuBurns said:
That's how gaming works for most people I think. It's fine that most of GAF owns all the platforms, we're more 'devoted' than most, but lots of people only buy one, and they do it based on what is meant to come out. It's unfair to change that I think, within reason anyway. If you really waited, you'd need to wait till the end of the generation to see how all the cards fell, that's kind of extreme. Imagine waiting for Versus to make your decision, fucking hell.

Nope. Most people buy stuff when they want to use it, or if something interests them at that point. I think you're pretty disconnected from reality if you think that most people even bother doing research or planning with regards to gaming purchases. It's not a house. It's just a toy. Most people don't even know Final Fantasy Versus XIII exists.

Auto_aim1 · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
At this point the original announcement is completely irrelevant and Square Enix knows it. Any worthwhile marketing for Versus will only start when they are ready and confident that the game will be out within [x] months. Once they are sure, it won't be drip-feeding news, but actual marketing. Once that starts, nothing before that really matters anymore.

Good point. In a way, it's been too long and the game must have already fallen off many people's radar. I guess it would be logical to start with heavy marketing to rekindle the interest. But for people who are desperately waiting for some significant new details from the game, it's been a little painful.

neoism · Jan 18, 2012

jett said:
Versus XIII is really all about Kitase wanting to prove to himself that he can carry on the bullshit of a vaporware title for 10 years. George Broussard is his true video game idol.

Is he like a partner of square..... I love his games and everything, but if V13 doesn't do insane numbers.. is he toast. I'm lucky as a FF fan. I love them all really. You are a final 10. X-2, XIII style fan or a 6, 7, 8 fan. I'm glad I love them all. 12, 13 and 6 are top three though.

SykoTech · Jan 18, 2012

-Pyromaniac- said:
Yeah they should announce the game for the next-generation of consoles that will have no userbase after spending so goddamn long on it!!!!

Yeah, I have no idea people want that. Well, port-begging aside.

RPGCrazied · Jan 18, 2012

Why do I have this feeling the next kingdom hearts is going to be for the Vita? The franchise is a handheld series now, I just need to get over it. Versus should just turn into a CG movie. They have been working on this game longer than XIII itself. What's that, 5 or 6 years? I wonder if it will ever come out now.

Marlowe89 · Jan 18, 2012

I love how we get an "oh, MAYBE we'll get a showing of the game this year" in regards to Versus XIII (as if we didn't get one before). I mean I could be wrong, but sometimes I really can't help but assume the developers don't really care about the game at this point and are kind of just lazily slugging through it because Nomura ultimately wants it to be a finished product some day maybe. Even Nomura's interests clearly seem to be focused much more on Kingdom Hearts. Four years of game development is tolerable for me, but more than six years is just ridiculous and it usually means something's wrong with the way management is being handled.

Mr. Wonderful · Jan 18, 2012

I really just have the feeling that Square-Enix doesn't know what this game is.

A Kingdom Hearts action-RPG with a Final Fantasy world map and a GTA-esque city with cherry picked western elements.

StuBurns · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
Nope. Most people buy stuff when they want to use it, or if something interests them at that point. I think you're pretty disconnected from reality if you think that most people even bother doing research or planning with regards to gaming purchases. It's not a house. It's just a toy. Most people don't even know Final Fantasy Versus XIII exists.

Versus was an example, I think you're disconnected from reality if you don't think anyone's ever bought an Xbox knowing Halo's are coming to it, or a Wii knowing Mario/Zeldas were coming.

H_Prestige · Jan 18, 2012

RPGCrazied said:
Why do I have this feeling the next kingdom hearts is going to be for the Vita? The franchise is a handheld series now, I just need to get over it. Versus should just turn into a CG movie. They have been working on this game longer than XIII itself. What's that, 5 or 6 years? I wonder if it will ever come out now.

CoM didn't stop KH2 from being on the PS2 so I don't see BBS and 3D stopping KH3 from being on the PS3 or whatever next gen console.

The way I see it, KH1/2/3 are like the main course and are meant to be a audio/visual feast, while stuff like BBS and 3D are the appetizers. They can be very tasty in their own right, but they're not what you came to eat.

Kagari · Jan 18, 2012

SE really needs to clarify things on Versus, but I don't think it'll happen until 1) FFXIII-2 is out in all territories and 2) KH3D release. Nomura said in a previous interview that the date for the next info batch was already set, so unless that has changed...

MetatronM · Jan 18, 2012

duckroll said:
I don't think it's too late to change the name either, but I do feel that there are issues with changing the name to "FFXV" in particular. It's probably safer for everyone involved if they found a good alternative title which doesn't sound moronic but retains the FF title.

It's not like it's hard to change the name. Just rename it to Final Fantasy Versus. Done.

VindicatorZ · Jan 18, 2012

Wow, Fuck this game.

"I hope we can show something Versus Related"

Jesus christ man

KingJ2002 · Jan 18, 2012

Yeah... i think FF Versus 13 is definitely getting geared up to release on multiple platforms... now that the game is going to have less pre-rendered cut scenes.

but ultimately... they shouldnt called this Final Fantasy Versus XIII.

call it FFXIV... FF: Versus... FF: *insert subtitle*... but calling it Versus XIII is a sure fire way to make sure this game fails.

the original FF XIII and XIII-2 should be enough... XIII will go down as a stain on the franchise... even if it wasnt a bad game... it just wasnt the great one the company hyped us into thinking it was... so adding other games into it's saga will only turn people away.

Go_Ly_Dow · Jan 18, 2012

-Pyromaniac- said:
Lord Nomura-sama is doing it on purpose. He is depraving us and then in our moment of weakness he will put it in our hands and we can do with it what our heart and mind pleases. He is going for pure ecstasy.

Indeed. He will be the puppet master once the hype train starts rolling.

Paracelsus · Jan 18, 2012

MetatronM said:
It's not like it's hard to change the name. Just rename it to Final Fantasy Versus. Done.

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