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[borghe]

The fairest comparison to the confederacy are the Nazis. Not all of the hyperbole hate bullshit.. but from a historical point of view... There were a lot of significant reasons for the rise of Nazis in Germany, and some of those reasons.. shock.. were good for the people.. but at the end of the day, no, Germany shouldn't have anything around "remembering" the nazis..

now just put the confederacy in place of Nazi and the south in place of germany.

 

[Regulus Tera]

What the fuck does marxism even have to do with this?

Egalitarianism of all kinds has become the Go To scapegoat for a portion of the American Electorate to voice their grievances against. I doubt they have ever heard of The Communist Manifesto.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Traitors to the winning state? Give me an example please? A country where monuments and statues exist for defeated secessionists, and where a good chunk of said country celebrate them (well at the same time being the biggest pushers of "patriotism").

You're criteria is different from Slayven's so I don't know what you're doing here. Also, I don't think the people hanging on to the Confederacy could be considered a good chunk. Anyway.

Here's a statue of Oliver Cromwell in London. I think this meets enough criteria. Eventually defeated, bloody rule, was a traitor, had the king executed. His status is controversial but that's similar to the Confederacy's.

There's also statues of George Washington in London but his side won so I guess it's different. In regards to what Slayven actually said, the older your country is, the more likely it is that it has a convoluted history of government where one person's traitor is another's hero so it's highly likely that there are statues and memorials of people who were considered at one time or another, traitors. Especially if they have had revolutions or civil wars or other significant changes in government. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying that it's not rare.

 

[Charles Brandon]

My position on these things is that they should be left in place with a plaque that contextualises them and explains why they have been left there. The fact that this stuff is there in the first place is a part of history in itself and worthy of reflection.

 

[Frozenprince]

They are going to museums:

Exactly where they belong

They are historically important and should be remembered and discussed, but certainly not made into monuments.

 

[Nepenthe]

Fuck leaving them up as a "historical reminder," as if these statues are the only historical link back to the civil war we have. Like, go over to Germany and chastise them for "erasing history" for getting all the Nazi memorabilia out of view. See how far you get with that.

Honestly I'd say destroy them. They have no place in modern society.

 

[Count Dookkake]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1350218

 

[Frozenprince]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1350218

NGL kinda bummed there's a lack of trolls at this thing apparently.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Some white people sure do love preserving the memory of the Confederacy. I wonder what other ideas from them they like preserving...

 

[Inferno313]

The confederacy were a bunch of racists who committed treason against this country, and then lost terribly.

If you're really going to try to play the "heritage, not hate" card, then what part of your "heritage" are you celebrating? The traitors part, or the losers part?

 

[Vital Tundra]

The confederacy were a bunch of racists who committed treason against this country, and then lost terribly.

If you're really going to try to play the "heritage, not hate" card, then what part of your "heritage" are you celebrating? The traitors part, or the losers part?

Celebrating how their ancestors fought for all of states rights... Or some...... Not the one about owning slaves... But the rest!

 

[Wilsongt]

The confederacy were a bunch of racists who committed treason against this country, and then lost terribly.

If you're really going to try to play the "heritage, not hate" card, then what part of your "heritage" are you celebrating? The traitors part, or the losers part?

Well... Considering how Atlanta lost the SB...

 

[JABEE]

Never understood why we even have so many civil war statues here considering we quickly surrendered and barely played a role. Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee had nothing to do with New Orleans. At least Beauregard was from here but fuck him too.

Robert E. Lee was a popular figure everywhere in the country, not just in the confederate states. It is sourced from a mixture of white supremacy, backlash against Northern occupation of Southern States, the destruction of their slave-dependent economy, the destruction and bombing of Cities like Charleston, Richmond, and Atlanta with the result leaving the cities in ashes.

The biggest cause of the reaction to this statues being removed or any attempt to change the South, is centered on race and someone else taking away the good old days, a fictional depiction you can see in one of this country's most "treasured" film classics "Gone with the Wind."

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The confederacy were a bunch of racists who committed treason against this country, and then lost terribly.

If you're really going to try to play the "heritage, not hate" card, then what part of your "heritage" are you celebrating? The traitors part, or the losers part?

You forget these people are idiots who probably think the Confederates were just fighting the good fight against an oppressive government or some shit. And I bet they're the first ones to say "I'm not racist!", and omit the "But I think we should preserve the memory of treasonous slave owners. Just sayin'"

 

[Count Dookkake]

NGL kinda bummed there's a lack of trolls at this thing apparently.

Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to share memes and preach to the choir.

 

[shiba5]

NGL kinda bummed there's a lack of trolls at this thing apparently.

There are trolls. Look closer at the two guys holding the signs - especially the one on the left.

 

[EstoyBlackWaldo]

Tear the shit down and fuck putting it in a museum. Grind it to dust, ashes to ashes and all.

 

[JABEE]

You forget these people are idiots who probably think the Confederates were just fighting the good fight against an oppressive government or some shit. And I bet they're the first ones to say "I'm not racist!", and omit the "But I think we should preserve the memory of treasonous slave owners. Just sayin'"

I think this is how it is spun.

Also, America has many monuments of slave owners in this country. I think the question is how are these monuments being used. Does someone look at the Washington monument and believe it is re-affirming racist ideology? Does someone look at Monticello and believe that?

The problem with Robert E. Lee monuments is that he is associated with bringing things back to a retrograde way of life. Lee is used as a symbol to stop progress for civil rights. Even if the men themselves have similar demons, what they represent and the context they are presented by historical societies is different.

Tearing down monuments like this that have history that goes beyond just 1865 is absurd. It has a historical component and life to it as long as it has stood where it stands. It can be removed and cared for by historians.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

but pretending that they never existed by erasing them is another.

No one is going to "pretend they never existed" by tearing down statues that praise and glorify them.

The only "erasing" that is going on is that these vile people were monsters and that erasure happens with these examples of propaganda.

"BUT IT'S ART!" isn't an excuse to preserve positive monuments to literal slave holding dictatorships.

The Confederacy is essentially America's North Korea. When North Korea falls are you going to waggle your finger condescendingly every time they take down a picture of Dear Leader? "B-b-b-but you're taking down art guys!" GMAFB.

 

[VendettaRed07]

And, frankly, some of the blame lays at Lincoln's feet. He pardoned the South for the betterment of coming together to heal (good it did him, blah) when he should have come down hard on the South, like really, really hard. Being a Southerner should have the same as being a Nazi post-WWII. It should have been something that brought deep shame and disappointment to the country as a well, and the flag should have been banned. I wager, had Lincoln and Congress, had gone that direction, we would have a very different America today. Because it basically let the South rewrite history to their favor.

That is what should have happened but would never have worked in practice. I don't know if Lincoln would not have had the political to make a hardline stance like that stick. Lincoln's 10% plan had he lived would have been lenient but most of the blame lies with Andrew Johnson who did actually pardon everyone.

I think the biggest difference is that Lincoln would have allowed reparations for southern blacks like Special field order no. 15 stand where was Johnson did not. There was a massive gulf between the two in sympathy towards blacks. Lincoln made it very clear that he believed slaves who worked their entire lives and received no payment were entitled to reimbursement; but Johnson argued if they were "given" anything they'd become lazy and not work. I get why Lincoln thought it would be a good idea to pick him as VP but ultimately he doesn't get enough criticism for the disastrous fallout his crucial decisions made

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

Lincoln both pardoned the South and later, during Reconstruction, the South threatened war again and the North backed down and basically let them rebuild their slave state.

 

[Lord Frieza]

That is what should have happened but would never have worked in practice. I don't know if Lincoln would not have had the political to make a hardline stance like that stick. Lincoln's 10% plan had he lived would have been lenient but most of the blame lies with Andrew Johnson who did actually pardon everyone.

I think the biggest difference is that Lincoln would have allowed reparations for southern blacks like Special field order no. 15 stand where was Johnson did not. There was a massive gulf between the two in sympathy towards blacks; I get why Lincoln thought it would be a good idea to pick him as VP but ultimately he doesn't get enough criticism for the disastrous fallout his crucial decisions made

I might be mistaken, but I do believe the pardoning was conceived by Lincoln to help unite the country, so I think he deserves the blame of it, at least somewhat. But it is hard to say, I guess. And yeah, Johnson was...yeah

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Um yeah that's what I was talking about, usually these Confederate statues are just memorializing the Confederate generals and all, but that one is so insanely terrible

Even then we don't need to immortalize racists who fought on the wrong side of history.

 

[VendettaRed07]

I might be mistaken, but I do believe the pardoning was conceived by Lincoln to help unite the country, so I think he deserves the blame of it, at least somewhat. But it is hard to say, I guess. And yeah, Johnson was...yeah

His plan to reincorporate the south was lenient but not as lenient as the one Johnson ended up enacting. There would have been pardons but Lincoln would have had attachements and things they would need to concede in order to get it. Based on negotiations Sherman and other republicans were having with freed slaves, conceding large plots of land would almost certainly have been part of the deal.

Johnson asked for nothing and because the pardons he gave out, the former slave owners and confederates were able to win back the rights to the land Sherman redistributed towards blacks in the south

 

[Count Dookkake]

There are trolls. Look closer at the two guys holding the signs - especially the one on the left.

He knows. That pic isn't from this New Orleans situation.

 

[Real Hero]

They shouldn't be removed, information should be placed alongside them though

 

[PixlNinja]

Every time this subject comes up I'm reminded of how fucking crazy it is that Cenk of the TYT is a denier.

 

[Nepenthe]

They shouldn't be removed, information should be placed alongside the though

They should be removed- preferably blasted to bits- and a better memorial should be placed in its stead. We have information about the civil war handily available online, in books, and in museums. Why does the historical record regarding any of that hinge upon these statues existing in public?

 

[Real Hero]

They should be removed- preferably blasted to bits- and a better memorial should be placed in its stead. We have information about the civil war handily available online, in books, and in museums. Why does the historical record regarding any of that hinge upon these statues existing in public?

Because that's where they are. Its more interesting that it being a picture in a book

 

[bonesmccoy]

I'd never heard of that obelisk.

Mmmmmmmmy goodness.

 

[Nepenthe]

Because that's where they are. Its more interesting that it being a picture in a book

Where they are existed for literally billions of years without them before they were consciously made and put there. Why does their existence take precedence over the millions of other far more positive things you could do with that space?

And you think that memorials to the confederacy should exist because "a book is less interesting?" Again, go over to Germany and tell them to reinstall some Nazi shit because "it'd be more interesting."

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Because that's where they are. Its more interesting that it being a picture in a book

If your not gonna learn history from a book I seriously doubt you'll learn from a statue.

 

[RastaMentality]

Idc if these go in a waste bin or a museum. Our country needs to completely revamp how it teaches race and the confederacy before shit like this being in a museum matters. Confederates should be synonymous with total evil like Nazis by this point. We shouldn't have white teenagers in California and Michigan touting confederate flags on their facebooks and their Ford F-150s.

Even just teaching that will be too radical for textbook makers but it's necessary if we ever want to actually begin the process of rooting out racism.

 

[Cocaloch]

The "you lost! get over it!" crowd deserves no sympathy.

I don't think you thought this through. It comes across like you're supporting monuments to the confederacy.

The fairest comparison to the confederacy are the Nazis. Not all of the hyperbole hate bullshit.. but from a historical point of view... There were a lot of significant reasons for the rise of Nazis in Germany, and some of those reasons.. shock.. were good for the people..

Not at all. The best comparison is the ahistoical one that they are both evil. But in terms of why both things happened they have little to nothing in common besides a shared basis in racism.

Which makes sense. The 1930s were a very different time than the 1850s.

 

[Walshicus]

Here's a statue of Oliver Cromwell in London. I think this meets enough criteria. Eventually defeated, bloody rule, was a traitor, had the king executed. His status is controversial but that's similar to the Confederacy's.

Not really a traitor. He didn't betray England, he rescued it from the clutches of monarchism.

Doesn't mean he wasn't an arsehole to the Irish etc. though.

 

[Cocaloch]

Not really a traitor. He didn't betray England, he rescued it from the clutches of monarchism.

Uhh what? He absolutely was a traitor. Meanwhile this is the most Whiggish reading of what happened that is possible....

The better counter argument was that he never lost.

 

[VistraNorrez]

The problem with a monument in a public outdoor space is that there is practically no context. A plaque doesn't mean shit. When is see a monument outside that tells me they are honoring a person or persons.

Now if they wanted to create a "Confederacy Square" with all these statues and large signs indicating the terrible history, then it could be an outdoor museum. But I imagine that would cost more than anyone wants to spend. A museum is fine.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

The fairest comparison to the confederacy are the Nazis. Not all of the hyperbole hate bullshit.. but from a historical point of view... There were a lot of significant reasons for the rise of Nazis in Germany, and some of those reasons.. shock.. were good for the people.. but at the end of the day, no, Germany shouldn't have anything around "remembering" the nazis..

now just put the confederacy in place of Nazi and the south in place of germany.

What was "good for the people" about destabilizing a liberal democracy so you can install a racist dictatorship and murder dozens of millions of people?

 

[Nepenthe]

Idc if these go in a waste bin or a museum. Our country needs to completely revamp how it teaches race and the confederacy before shit like this being in a museum matters. Confederates should be synonymous with total evil like Nazis by this point. We shouldn't have white teenagers in California and Michigan touting confederate flags on their facebooks and their Ford F-150s.

Even just teaching that will be too radical for textbook makers but it's necessary if we ever want to actually begin the process of rooting out racism.

This is true. The annoying thing is that the people who stan hardest for the confederacy always wants to tell everyone that they "aren't responsible for the sins of their forefathers," but the moment you call out the sins of their forefathers as the sins of their forefathers, well, you can't do that either, now can you, because that was their great great granpappy who laid his life down for the war, and serving in the army is the most sacrosanct thing ever.

All these people want to do is to have an echo chamber where they can glorify long-dead soldiers so they can feel proud of something- anything- without having to reconcile with what celebration of that part of the war means for their ancestry and subsequently their personal values.

 

[Walshicus]

Uhh what? He absolutely was a traitor. Meanwhile this is the most Whiggish reading of what happened that is possible....

The better counter argument was that he never lost.

A traitor to what? Some monarch? Who gives a fuck about monarchs.

His crimes are numerous, but cutting the head off a king isn't one of them.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I think this is how it is spun.

Also, America has many monuments of slave owners in this country. I think the question is how are these monuments being used. Does someone look at the Washington monument and believe it is re-affirming racist ideology? Does someone look at Monticello and believe that?

The problem with Robert E. Lee monuments is that he is associated with bringing things back to a retrograde way of life. Lee is used as a symbol to stop progress for civil rights. Even if the men themselves have similar demons, what they represent and the context they are presented by historical societies is different.

Tearing down monuments like this that have history that goes beyond just 1865 is absurd. It has a historical component and life to it as long as it has stood where it stands. It can be removed and cared for by historians.

Exactly. Unlike some of the other monuments to people who did terrible shit, that's his only or primary legacy. Personally I would be fine if these weren't outright destroyed, but were put in museums (well the ones that can fit) and were given accurate plaques, not honoring them, but outright and explicitly stating what they did.

This is the problem with "preserving" these symbols. Do I think the confederate flag needs to be wiped from history? Of course not. That's absurd. But there's a difference between it being in a museum with the proper context and it being flown as if it's ideals and values are still being upheld, which they sure and fuck shouldn't be

 

[norm9]

Those statues should get as much reverence as other losers that tried to fuck with america. Trashbin.

 

[WiseguyMVP]

We mustn't forget our past...but we mustn't dwell there either.

In other words...buh-bye Felecia. (museum for you)

 

[Nepenthe]

Those statues should get as much reverence as other losers that tried to fuck with america. Trashbin.

I suggest we place a bunch of British statues around the place. Can't forget the Revolutionary War, now can we?

 

[PeskyToaster]

A traitor to what? Some monarch? Who gives a fuck about monarchs.

His crimes are numerous, but cutting the head off a king isn't one of them.

English people at the time cared. Even now you'd probably ruffle some feathers if you cut the head off the queen and paraded it around the streets. I'm surprised you can't see any way in which he would be considered a traitor to the Kingdom of England.

Uhh what? He absolutely was a traitor. Meanwhile this is the most Whiggish reading of what happened that is possible....

The better counter argument was that he never lost.

I only said he lost because the Restoration happened but that was after he died.

 

[studyguy]

"You lost get over it" seems somewhat ironic in regards to confederacy.

Either way, these things getting sent to a museum should settle most everything regarding it.

 

[Lionel Mandrake]

Just replace them with Dale Earnhardt statues. Replace Confederate flags with Dale Earnhardt 3s. Everyone wins.

Why is this so hard?

 

[Beartruck]

Just replace them with Dale Earnhardt statues. Replace Confederate flags with Dale Earnhardt 3s. Everyone wins.

Why is this so hard?

I like this plan. Get those fakeass heroes out of there. Let's get a man in there who died for a true noble cause.

 

[Kurdel]

I always blows my mind when I learn about vile monuments like this one that survived for so long.

 

[TalonJH]

Just replace them with Dale Earnhardt statues. Replace Confederate flags with Dale Earnhardt 3s. Everyone wins.

Why is this so hard?

I'm okay with this. lol