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Nintendo 3DS technical discuss thread: lets talk about this here
- Thread starter BDGAME
- Start date
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Mr_Brit said:
Original GCN hardware didn't support it, so Wii's hardware doesn't support it either.
Shortsighted for sure, but that's the reason (it's also the reason why the Wii doesn't have an Optical sound output either and thus, cannot support DD or play DVD movies - all DVD players must support DD sound or they cannot be licensed to play movies)
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
The video output on the Xbox was just generally a lot better than the PS2 and GCN, really.Mr_Brit said:
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
cjelly said:
Actually, didn't the GCN technically put out the best looking 480p signal? I remember hearing about how it had the best Component Cable (something about it having an expensive DAC chip inside it that was really high quality, which encouraged Nintendo to reduce its availability)
I'm sure you know what compressed means, but I don't believe you understand how it is applied to this situation. The Wii draws the same 4:3 pixel resolution regardless of whether it is displaying in 16:9 or 4:3. When you change the aspect ratio, the resolution does not change. The Wii always displays a 720x480 image, however, most Wii games have black borders around the image to varying degrees. So, within that 720x480 image, you have a variable resolution image. Games with more severe overscan are rendered at a lower resolution while those with less are rendered at a higher resolution. Regardless, the Wii tops out at 640x480. Even though it outputs 720x480, it will never fill the full 720 horizontal lines, which is why there are always black borders on the left and right of the image (unless you enable an overscan mode which hides them).firelink said:
So, when viewed in 4:3, the Wii will appear to display proper square pixels. In 16:9, it relies on your TV to stretch the image. The modification of the aspect ratio is no different than changing the FOV in a PC game. It simply adjusts the way things are rendered to take into account the stretching you will be doing. This is how 16:9 was handled on every other system until HD resolutions were used.
StuBurns said:
OH! So it stretches the pixels and then compresses it?
Okay, that makes sense. That changes things a bit about the fillrate comparison. I wish we knew what the Pica200 was clocked at.
@dark10x
Thanks for the explanation (that picture helped also). I think I understand now.
The Wii is still capable of >480p though is it not? I think it's 640x571 or something strange like that.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
firelink said:
The Pica200's clockrate may well be variable. Some games might be clocking it higher than others (much like how certain games clocked the PSP processor higher than others and pushed stronger visuals as a result)
If my theory about the Circle Pad Extension housing an extra 3DS battery is true, then maybe they'll only allow games that use it to take advantage of the extra clock speed? (since the battery drain will be counteracted by the battery life gain)
Nintendo did say that battery life will vary by game, so the clock being variable by game sounds very plausible.
If the GPU was clocked at the full 400MHz, it would actually be a very impressive GPU. 1600 mpixels/second and 160M polygons/second. I wouldn't mind that. I wonder if the CPU would bottleneck if that were the case?
If the GPU was clocked at the full 400MHz, it would actually be a very impressive GPU. 1600 mpixels/second and 160M polygons/second. I wouldn't mind that. I wonder if the CPU would bottleneck if that were the case?
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
cjelly said:
For progressive output perhaps. But not interlaced material. Xbox has some of the worst rgb output ive ever seen. The picture is dark, blurry and murky. The only thing that is worse is ps3. Ps3 is basically unplayable on an sd tv. Both use nvidia chipsets. Nividia has notoriously bad tvout-chips. The ones with connexant chips are ok. Everything else is horrible.
In the context of processor cores outside their SoC implementation, people need to stop using the terms over clocked and under clocked. The clock of a core is flexible and not defined until locked down in an implementation, and even then can be dynamically scaled in most implementations.
The IP provider often times picks an arbitrary clock speed for which to quote corresponding performance figures, but that doesn't mean a later implementation with a higher speed is "over clocked".
The IP provider often times picks an arbitrary clock speed for which to quote corresponding performance figures, but that doesn't mean a later implementation with a higher speed is "over clocked".
AFAIK the HD Xbox games used anamorphic HD resolutions. So they render at 960x720, not 1280x720 and let the TV do the stretching to 16:9.PdotMichael said:
That's the PAL resolution (it can go a bit higher than that, actually). But it must scale it down to 480p before displaying (which would look mildly antialiased).firelink said:
They'll probably follow the PSP footsteps and allow games to use higher clock speeds when new models/revisions with better battery life become widespread. Models which are bigger, have more energy-efficient screens, die shrinks or (very unlikely) better batteries.Nuclear Muffin said:
PdotMichael
Banned
I played last year some Xbox Hd-games and they looked very clean and and not "anamorphic", way better than 16:9 Wii Games. But I have no precise technical description about it.
We have no informations about it, that are just wild speculations.
Unless the PICA200 is already running at the maximum, I imagine they could somehow adjust the clockspeed to a higher clock through firmware and software.
Honestly, we have no clue what Nintendo is doing. The 233MHz dual core ARM11, 64MB of RAM and 133MHz PICA200 rumored a long time ago may very well have been spot on. Nintendo changed the RAM though, so who is to say they did not also go in and raise the clockspeeds of the CPU and GPU?
Nintendo being sneaky is one of the reasons I keep speculating that we will see some impressive looking visuals in the future. Honestly, what makes anyone think they know what Nintendo is doing? They could have released underclocked hardware to throw Sony off, and when Sony reveals and releases this graphical beast called the Vita, the conference could very well be "Look what we can do after a firmware update". Doesn't sound like Nintendo, but neither does then fumbling a handheld of all things.
Honestly, we have no clue what Nintendo is doing. The 233MHz dual core ARM11, 64MB of RAM and 133MHz PICA200 rumored a long time ago may very well have been spot on. Nintendo changed the RAM though, so who is to say they did not also go in and raise the clockspeeds of the CPU and GPU?
Nintendo being sneaky is one of the reasons I keep speculating that we will see some impressive looking visuals in the future. Honestly, what makes anyone think they know what Nintendo is doing? They could have released underclocked hardware to throw Sony off, and when Sony reveals and releases this graphical beast called the Vita, the conference could very well be "Look what we can do after a firmware update". Doesn't sound like Nintendo, but neither does then fumbling a handheld of all things.
PdotMichael
Banned
firelink said:
I don't get the point of the pictures.
3DS is expected to have an ARM11 inside of it. ARM11 can go up to 1GHz, 4 times the speed rumored to be in the 3DS.
You don't think it is at all possible to release an update to raise this speed in the same vein as them possibly raising the speed of the PICA200? What am I missing here?
3DS is expected to have an ARM11 inside of it. ARM11 can go up to 1GHz, 4 times the speed rumored to be in the 3DS.
You don't think it is at all possible to release an update to raise this speed in the same vein as them possibly raising the speed of the PICA200? What am I missing here?
firelink said:
*cough cough*
Ah, hi firelink :-D
Also, would people PLEASE stop posting jpegs of really small screens when going for technical detail? The detail loss for comparison is much worse when the images are small. Thanks.
I'd also like to request something if you are an owner of a 3DS and a decent quality set of IEMs/buds/cans and know your stuff:
Please give an evaluation of the 3DS sound quality. The DS wasn't particaluarly hot there, with bad compression and pretty harsh and cold highs. I wanna know if something has improved there. Thanks
PdotMichael
Banned
M3d10n said:Lol? The 3DS resolution is 400x240. How are we supposed to compare larger images without blowing them up? This is a direct feed, 1:1 3DS screenshot:
Of course, but the Wii resolution is not 400 x 240 but 640 x 480. It's wrong to deny it
M3d10n said:Lol? The 3DS resolution is 400x240. How are we supposed to compare larger images without blowing them up? This is a direct feed, 1:1 3DS screenshot:
Oh, sorry, I wasn't being clear. Please use PNG instead of lossy jpeg because small pictures take a larger quality hit from jpeg artifacts.
As much as I love talking graphics and GPU's, we never really touched upon the 3DS's memory or CPU in this thread.
Do we know that the OS has a 32MB footprint or are those speculations? And is anyone actually certain what the CPU is or what frequency it is running?
I think we can gather from this thread that, even if the PICA200 is not better than Wii/GCN, it is at least comparable. But what about everything else? Are we going to see robust particle effects and AI make it onto the platform?
Do we know that the OS has a 32MB footprint or are those speculations? And is anyone actually certain what the CPU is or what frequency it is running?
I think we can gather from this thread that, even if the PICA200 is not better than Wii/GCN, it is at least comparable. But what about everything else? Are we going to see robust particle effects and AI make it onto the platform?
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
firelink said:
We're basing that off two things.
1: The pictures of the 3DS that was leaked from China that showed 96MB of RAM on a dev menu
2: The fact that we know for certain (thanks to a hardware teardown and xray) that the 3DS has 128MB of FCRAM inside the system
Makes perfect sense. Also, the 3DS web browser is designed to run with less than 25MB of RAM used.
Nobody knows what clock speed that the 3DS GPU or CPU is using.
Father_Brain
Banned
M3d10n said:
I've seen you allude to this before, but which demo are you referring to? I've watched video of the Nintendo World 2011 demo from January, and I honestly can't discern a single difference in terms of lighting or shadowing; there are still no dynamic shadows except those cast by certain characters/objects in certain areas. The September 2010 Nintendo Conference demo looks no different, from what little I can make out.
I think that's the same demo (which is also the one in Mercenaries). The more recent pictures/videos/demos like the ones in Gamescom show other and better things like underwater levels an (water effects) and fire/fog.Father_Brain said:
Can also be seen with the more recent demos actually having a menu/map on the bottom screen.
(Random video from Gamescom)
EDIT: Ah yeah, differences between those same demos. Yeah, haven't noticed any.
I do agree it looks slightly less detailed than the original demo/pics, but not that much.
PdotMichael
Banned
Father_Brain said:
yeah, the realtime gameplay demos never looked like the tech demo pictures (see OP).
And I played the Gamescom demo.
Brad Grenz
Member
FoxSpirit said:
Sure. Here's the max quality pngs from my Dolphin experiment.
DX9, no MSAA, no Aniso:
DX11, 4x MSAA, 16x Aniso:
3DS version (still a jpg...):
The 3DS pic there definitely has more geometry than the Dolphin screenshots. All of the edges just kind of look more refined. It might be AA, but I have yet to see the 3DS use any AA over 2x, and I highly doubt a mere 2x could make it look that much better.
I do not want anyone to jump on my back about the HDR comment, so I'll clarify. The 3DS shot shows a much, MUCH wider range of luminescence. There is a very clear difference between black and whites, a very wide range of contrast. That leads me to believe that A) The contrast is simply better or B) Some form of HDR is being used. I'm not 100% sure on this though.
The textures do look a bit worse, however, I think that is because of the range of darks. When I brightened the 3DS image a few pages back, lowered the contrast and added a quick Bloom effect to it, the water definitely popped more and so did some of the other textures.
I do not want anyone to jump on my back about the HDR comment, so I'll clarify. The 3DS shot shows a much, MUCH wider range of luminescence. There is a very clear difference between black and whites, a very wide range of contrast. That leads me to believe that A) The contrast is simply better or B) Some form of HDR is being used. I'm not 100% sure on this though.
The textures do look a bit worse, however, I think that is because of the range of darks. When I brightened the 3DS image a few pages back, lowered the contrast and added a quick Bloom effect to it, the water definitely popped more and so did some of the other textures.
Something is off, why is the first picture so blurry? And MSAA is clearly not working in pic two?
That said, you can spot the AA in the 3DS pic, nice. You can also spot the downgraded lighting (or maybe that's just the bloom) :-\
What also sucks is that aparently the DS is already out of texture memory. On the Wii version I can still kinda see the fish in the basket while on the 3DS... weird grey goo. The same happened to the pot with the green sprinkly stuff. Otherwise, textures look on par with the Wii version.
Don't forget this will be more aparent on the actual 3DS since you will get to see the full detail of the scene and not just half as we display it.
That said, you can spot the AA in the 3DS pic, nice. You can also spot the downgraded lighting (or maybe that's just the bloom) :-\
What also sucks is that aparently the DS is already out of texture memory. On the Wii version I can still kinda see the fish in the basket while on the 3DS... weird grey goo. The same happened to the pot with the green sprinkly stuff. Otherwise, textures look on par with the Wii version.
Don't forget this will be more aparent on the actual 3DS since you will get to see the full detail of the scene and not just half as we display it.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
There was a rumor not long ago (an actual rumor, nothing like wii's clock speeds) that claimed the latest fw update made the 2nd cpu available to apps.firelink said:
ps: congrats on figuring out anamorphic widescreen. A friendly tip: in the future, when not sure about a tech term, google it. Does wonders for the SNR ratios of threads like this one.
Brad Grenz
Member
FoxSpirit said:
OK, so I've lost most of my evening doing more research with Dolphin trying to replicate the AA seen in the 3DS shot. I changed to a newer build and changed all my settings to emphasize accurate emulation above speed. I've also run tests in DX9, DX11, OGL, in all cases both with and without anti-aliasing. Here are some of the results:
I have largely disregarded the OGL and DX11 modes because they have problems. OGL was extremely muddy at every setting and DX11's MSAA didn't seem to work properly. But here are a couple examples of those:
Anyway, after all this testing I suspect the 3DS shots we have were rendered at a much larger resolution and resized in Photoshop to the 3DS native resolution. That was the only way I could come close to that level of image quality.
And here's a gif to make the comparisons a bit easier:
Hard to match exactly, even with savestates, since the dock is bobbing up and down.
Lupin the Third
Member
The 3DS shot just looks like it has a thin fog over most of the background, or maybe that the gamma has been turned up a bit. Just my two cents.
Brad Grenz
Member
Lupin the Wolf said:
It may be a time of day issue, but I suspect someone better with photoshop could probably approximate the color timing of the 3DS shots with my Dolphin captures.
blu said:
You wouldn't happen to have a link to this rumor would you? I'm interested in reading about it.
Oh, and I did Google the term. I thought I had an idea of what it meant, but I Googled it to make sure. I am a very cautious poster - I Google EVERYTHING I am unsure of in order to verify what I think. The problem here, is that the definition I found on Google was not all that descriptive, so it left a lot of guessing up to me.
PdotMichael
Banned
Fafalada said:
some "HD" games are more 480p than 720p but maybe we should aks some Xbox homebrew experts about it
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
After going through some sort of thought process, I came up with an interesting idea, but I don't know enough about the technical details or networking protocols to pursue it further:
We know 32MB of the 3DS's RAM is reserved for the system. One consequence of this is that the internet browser can be accessed while a game is 'paused' from the Home menu. Here's what I thought of: assuming MH3G doesn't include native support for true online play, could Nintendo release an app that runs in the background in that 32MB to provide an Ad-Hoc Party-esque experience?
We know 32MB of the 3DS's RAM is reserved for the system. One consequence of this is that the internet browser can be accessed while a game is 'paused' from the Home menu. Here's what I thought of: assuming MH3G doesn't include native support for true online play, could Nintendo release an app that runs in the background in that 32MB to provide an Ad-Hoc Party-esque experience?
Wasn't it that one GameFreak developer comented on how one CPU is handling all the passive online functions (Friends On and Off, updates) while the other manages the main rendering? I wonder if some developers are allowed access to both CPUs (as in the case of Zelda OoT3D and Starfox 64 3D)?Cosmo Clock 21 said: