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Nintendo 3DS technical discuss thread: lets talk about this here
- Thread starter BDGAME
- Start date
Headphone usage improves the battery life of the 3DS as well right?
I would assume so. Sound intensity is equal to power/(4*pi*distance), therefore earphone located a couple of cm from your drums would only require 6% of the power to achieve the same effective volume as speakers 32cm away from you're drums. And that's not even taking into account noise pollution.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Alright 3DS technical GAF. As someone who was busy a lot last year and didn't pay much attention to the system technically or otherwise I've always been confused on the 3d angle.
I see people refer to the 3DS resolution top screen wise as 800x240, but why did I think it was 400x240? Can someone really lay this out for me as I assume it has to do with the parallax barrier and the 3d.
I'd also be interested to know how much space games like OOT, 3M3DL, and MK7 set aside on the carts for sound files. I know the 3DS is using larger carts than on the DS, but it makes me wonder how much of that is just for the larger graphical assests verses getting extra space for higher quality sound especially with a decent sound chip in the device. I still maintain the bigger block with the DS sound was the fact that sound usually got last priority on the carts and companies wanted smaller carts for cost saving measures. This meant no way were they stepping up to a larger just for sound. Not that the DS had an amazing hardware setup for sound or anything though.
I'm actually rather impressed with the 3DS sound wise from a lot of the bigger post launch games at least from what I've heard using my Grados. I just got the Zelda bundle the day after Xmas so my time with the system hasn't been a ton yet.
I see people refer to the 3DS resolution top screen wise as 800x240, but why did I think it was 400x240? Can someone really lay this out for me as I assume it has to do with the parallax barrier and the 3d.
I'd also be interested to know how much space games like OOT, 3M3DL, and MK7 set aside on the carts for sound files. I know the 3DS is using larger carts than on the DS, but it makes me wonder how much of that is just for the larger graphical assests verses getting extra space for higher quality sound especially with a decent sound chip in the device. I still maintain the bigger block with the DS sound was the fact that sound usually got last priority on the carts and companies wanted smaller carts for cost saving measures. This meant no way were they stepping up to a larger just for sound. Not that the DS had an amazing hardware setup for sound or anything though.
I'm actually rather impressed with the 3DS sound wise from a lot of the bigger post launch games at least from what I've heard using my Grados. I just got the Zelda bundle the day after Xmas so my time with the system hasn't been a ton yet.
800x240 is the total physical resolution of the screen. 400x240 is the effective resolution that you actually see; either for each eye in 3D mode or due to the forced pixel doubling in 2D mode. That being said, it the real resolution that counts when it comes to the actual rendering. Many games also enable 2x1 Super Sampling AA in their 2D modes too, so they still render at 800x240 internally.
I'd also be interested to know how much space games like OOT, 3M3DL, and MK7 set aside on the carts for sound files. I know the 3DS is using larger carts than on the DS, but it makes me wonder how much of that is just for the larger graphical assests verses getting extra space for higher quality sound especially with a decent sound chip in the device. I still maintain the bigger block with the DS sound was the fact that sound usually got last priority on the carts and companies wanted smaller carts for cost saving measures. This meant no way were they stepping up to a larger just for sound. Not that the DS had an amazing hardware setup for sound or anything though.
I'm actually rather impressed with the 3DS sound wise from a lot of the bigger post launch games at least from what I've heard using my Grados. I just got the Zelda bundle the day after Xmas so my time with the system hasn't been a ton yet.
This is impossible to tell without looking directly into the games' cart image files. Whilst the homebrew community has developed 3DS game image browsers, all the content within the image files are heavily encrypted so I have no idea if we can tell what is what yet. I'll look into it.
Edit: A quick check of the systems file formats suggest that we probably can not. Since I can't rip carts myself, I can't really check myself without doing some shady against ToS business, which I'm not going to do.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
What's the forced pixel doubling? I know games like OOT tried to add the SSAA in 2d mode, but I'm not up on the forced pixel doubling.
Also if you see 400x240 per eye how is his different than looking at a regular lcd screen in 2d? Are your two eyes seeing the full resolution in each eye for a normal 2d screen?
Is it 400x240 per layer which each eye sees a different layer? Would this mean in 2d mode you'd just be seeing 400x240 because you'd just be seeing one layer? (My knowledge of parallax barrier stuff is limited
).Also it's cool about the sound file info. It was more a general comment as I feel like one of the biggest things hampering good sound is just the fact that we get really tiny file space to squeeze all the sound in a lot of times. That usually leads to sub par results irregardless of how good the actually sound hardware is in the device.
Thanks in advance!!!
What's the forced pixel doubling? I know games like OOT tried to add the SSAA in 2d mode, but I'm not up on the forced pixel doubling.
Also if you see 400x240 per eye how is his different than looking at a regular lcd screen in 2d? Are your two eyes seeing the full resolution in each eye for a normal 2d screen?
Is it 400x240 per layer which each eye sees a different layer? Would this mean in 2d mode you'd just be seeing 400x240 because you'd just be seeing one layer? (My knowledge of parallax barrier stuff is limited
Also it's cool about the sound file info. It was more a general comment as I feel like one of the biggest things hampering good sound is just the fact that we get really tiny file space to squeeze all the sound in a lot of times. That usually leads to sub par results irregardless of how good the actually sound hardware is in the device.
Thanks in advance!!!
Two pixels are forced to act as one by displaying the same color. That all what pixel doubling is.
I know Nintendo will want 3D games but wouldn't it be possible to produce games that are not 3D and thus have the ability to use all of the power for a game?
They could then promote 3DS as the true successor to the DS even though some people still think of it as a sidestep.
Best handheld console I've ever owned.
They could then promote 3DS as the true successor to the DS even though some people still think of it as a sidestep.
Best handheld console I've ever owned.
3D isn't mandatory, so yes, developers are free to make 2D games on 3DS. But I think clever devs will find ways to do 3D without rendering the whole scenes twice over time, anyway.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
The technology behind the parallax barrier autostereoscopy blows my mind. I've read about it, I understand the basic principle (a different image for each eye lol) but still can't comprehend how it is done. Maybe I should read something in my native langage.
I wanted to ask something about the IR port : so it is used for the Circle Pad Frankenstick, I thought IR ports had really poor latency, how is it done ?
I wanted to ask something about the IR port : so it is used for the Circle Pad Frankenstick, I thought IR ports had really poor latency, how is it done ?
i wanted to avoid making a new thread for this since it is something that i just noticed.
are the recent 3DS' screens better than the screens of launch models? i got a second 3DS 2 days ago and i noticed that the screens look better than my old 3DS at the exact same settings.
i thought something was off at first and checked everything but the new 3DS looks a bit brighter than the old one. the d-pad also feels a bit better. i'm seriously considering transfering all my stuff to the new one because of this but first i want to fill the pokedex in my main unit (i need to get those monsters that have alternate forms)
is this known?
are the recent 3DS' screens better than the screens of launch models? i got a second 3DS 2 days ago and i noticed that the screens look better than my old 3DS at the exact same settings.
i thought something was off at first and checked everything but the new 3DS looks a bit brighter than the old one. the d-pad also feels a bit better. i'm seriously considering transfering all my stuff to the new one because of this but first i want to fill the pokedex in my main unit (i need to get those monsters that have alternate forms)
is this known?
What's the forced pixel doubling? I know games like OOT tried to add the SSAA in 2d mode, but I'm not up on the forced pixel doubling.
Also if you see 400x240 per eye how is his different than looking at a regular lcd screen in 2d? Are your two eyes seeing the full resolution in each eye for a normal 2d screen?
Is it 400x240 per layer which each eye sees a different layer? Would this mean in 2d mode you'd just be seeing 400x240 because you'd just be seeing one layer? (My knowledge of parallax barrier stuff is limited
The screen is physically 800x240. When 3D is off, it displays a single 400x240 image, so pixels are doubled/repeated horizontally.
The parallax barrier is a transparent LCD placed at a small distance on top of the normal LCD which creates a comb-like vertical pattern when turned on. When 3D is enabled, two 400x240 images are displayed vertically interlaced and the barrier's pattern and gap blocks one eye from seeing either the odd or even pixel columns of the underlying LCD, when positioned correctly.
Since the 3DS needs to render two 400x240 images per frame for 3D (or 2XSSAA), it effectively needs to fill 800x240 pixels, even if each eye only see 400x240.
enjoy new set of RE:R pics
http://nintendoeverything.com/80653...ations-screenshots-12/?pid=19414&pageid=80653
http://nintendoeverything.com/80653...ations-screenshots-12/?pid=19414&pageid=80653
Bending_Unit_22
Member
The lighting in this shot is pretty sweet.
I wonder if it's baked or realtime.
Indeed, but why does she have Cruella-esque index fingers and how can she break her left wrist at will like that? I know it's not the 3DS' fault but it'd be nice to get well rendered hands someday. Heck, going to 3 fingers like cartoons would be ok with me if they look right.
Raitosaito
Member
If this is old news don't make fun of me because I haven't kept up much on this.
How is the copyright protection on the 3DS? Has it been cracked and massively exploited like the DS?
How is the copyright protection on the 3DS? Has it been cracked and massively exploited like the DS?
Valid question. No the 3DS hasn't been hacked yet. From what I can tell, the community isn't even close to doing so yet.
For what it's worth the 3DS has some very sophisticated and thorough security measures built in. If the hackers are ever going to break in, it's going to be because Nintendo overlooked one insignificant detail or made one little mistake rather then any sort of easy to break fundamental flaw. Right now, no ones found anything of the sort or if they have, they haven't gone public yet.
-WindYoshi-
Banned
I remember when everyone laughed at Nintendo for their confidence in the 3DS' anti-piracy measures.
AzureNightmare
Banned
Nothing is perfect and everything can be hacked.
Mind you that's just my view point on the matter. I'm hardly the worlds best programmer (actually I pretty much suck at it) so I don't fully understand everything I spotted and maybe I'm a little off in my observation. Take what I say with a little bit of salt.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
Sure everything can be hacked. But I think what is on everyone's minds is wether "Do I need a college degree to understand the basic principles behind the hack and some dexterity with the soldering iron or can I just put something on that SD card thingie so I get to play Nintendogs for free lol"
I personally hope for a hack that would alloy you to instal your games on the sd card. This our region unlocking
AzureNightmare
Banned
Last time I checked in they had dumped the NAND and were in the process of decrypting the firmware which would in the process of doing so teach them how to spoof or bypass the security checks of the 3DS's DRM. That reminds me. isn't this about the time of year that fail0verflow comes out and reveals their latest hacks?
On the environment? Baked. On Jill? Probably a dynamic shader based on a single nearest light source designed to mimic the nearby environmental lighting, but would need to see in motion to be sure.
The apparent obsession with baked vs 'realtime' lighting that spilled out of infinity blade discussion is honestly a bit misguided i think - there's nothing wrong with baked lighting if it does the job on static lights and geometry, and isn't too incongruous with whatever dynamic lighting you have going on with a scene. Yes, it can be really technically impressive, and a good show of horsepower, if 100% of your lighting is dynamic, but there is only a handful of games that do that (maybe less than that again if we consider static ambient lighting), and it can be kind of wasteful if they're not doing things with the gameplay to take advantage of it.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
At the same time some other shots demonstrate strong specular over (portions of) the environment. Baking is not an option for those surfaces.
Re that particular Jill shot - I'd say two sources minimum.
reading some stuff on Passive 3DTVs, the suggestion seems to be that you get more than half the resolution. Even though each eye only sees 400x240 in this case, your brain interprets the overall information to be closer to the original 800x240.
Well the flash dump was inevitable but decrypting the firmware is easier said then done. They'll need to find the encryption key first before they can decrypt anything (either that or they need a few decades to brute force it).
You can bake every other component though, look those components up and then compute your specular. If the specular is dynamic I suppose you could call the environmental lighting 'semi baked'
Maybe, yeah, there's one particularly dominant one to the left, but there could be others. I wonder if they're generated and inserted at run time depending on other things happening in the scene or if they're predetermined. Well, doesn't really matter as long as it works.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
True. In theory, you can even bake a portion of the specular equation (the light_pos - surface_pos term) but I'm not sure you'd gain anything performance-wise from fetching that from a tex versus just passing it to the alu. Specular does not really compare in computational complexity to diffuse radiosity.You can bake every other component though, look those components up and then compute your specular. If the specular is dynamic I suppose you could call the environmental lighting 'semi baked'
Normally, in immediate shading (i.e. non-deferred), you'd use shaders that handle up to N sources, and then make sure you pick the most prominent N (or less) sources that affect the given surface at each moment. IOW, the scene as a whole can have more than N sources overall.
Specular requires information about the light direction/position to be baked, which is not trivial. The only ways I know can only store one vector, either on a 2nd lightmap or per vertex, but it result in strange results in surfaces lit by more than one light. I'm also not sure if the 3DS GPU is flexible enough to use those methods, and based on RE:M and the RE:R demo, I say specular is done by real-time lighs, since the hardware provides them.You can bake every other component though, look those components up and then compute your specular. If the specular is dynamic I suppose you could call the environmental lighting 'semi baked'
Maybe, yeah, there's one particularly dominant one to the left, but there could be others. I wonder if they're generated and inserted at run time depending on other things happening in the scene or if they're predetermined. Well, doesn't really matter as long as it works.
RE4 worked the same way: almost all lighting was done via GC's hardware per-vertex lights. You could even shoot many of the lights off.
Since the GC could only render 8 lights at once per draw call, Capcom used a nice batching system so each model and level segment was affected only by specific and nearby lights, allowing them to use much more than 8 lights per level.
Capcom used the same technique in the MT Framework (the console/PC version). Since it uses forward rendering, it's important to keep the number of lights simultaneously affecting a piece of geometry down.
I think the 3DS can probably render objects affected by 4 per-pixel lights at once, so the same batching algorithm can be used here.
Why not keep the light info in memory and calculate the specular fully each time? (Or maybe that's what you mean by 'realtime light sources'?). I wasn't imagining baking light-source info into the texture, was thinking it would be kept separately - just baking the results of the other components. Though blu's post suggests that maybe you can put light position into the texture. I'm sure they're doing whichever way makes most sense.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Not the position but the light direction (i.e. light_pos - surface_pos). But as M3d10n noted, you'd need that for every participating light source, and those cannot move, apparently. Or more precisely, the relative positioning of the light source vis-a-vis the surface cannot change.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Did anyone find what CTR stood for?
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Either Can't Touch Retro, or Centaur.
I don't think so. Unlike RVL (Revolution), DOL (Dolphin) or NTR (Nitro), CTR supposedly isn't even an abbreviation of the codename. The 3DS codename was "Horizon", supposedly.
Crash Team Racing 3DS confirmed.
I've implemented something like that myself years ago. It does a good job at making the normal maps show up, but can look weird if you have more than one dominating light in the scene (because there's only one light direction per pixel).
Bioshock did something interesting: the lights were real-time but the shadows were baked into the lightmap (instead of combined incoming light color). Each channel (RGBA) encoded a pre-baked shadow mask for one light, so each surface could be lit by four lights at once. The level was preprocessed to build a list of lights for each surface. This is why it looked so different from other UE games at the time (when the lights are real time you get full quality specular highlights). I think something similar can be done in the 3DS.
Nice, although you could go as far as 1bit/light and do slight blur/PCF in pixelshder to get decent shadows and fit more of them into a single texture..
The horizon is the CenTeR line dividing the earth and the sky. Makes perfect sense.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Don't think it can handle the polygon count found in the DKCR backgrounds but I see no reason Epic Yarn wouldn't be possible.
Is anyone else having lingering effects from the 3D affect their vision?
I bought a 3DS on Saturday. I've used it maybe 4 to 5 hours a day since then, mostly with the 3D turned on.
I noticed last night that I'm starting to see "3D" things on my regular laptop display. Like for example if I look at several rows of text sometimes they briefly appear to be on different planes. One row of text will appear to be recessed, etc. It seems to especially happen when looking at windows with dark borders or drop shadows. It's a little concerning, enough to where I might leave the 3D stuff on my 3DS turned off for the time being.
I bought a 3DS on Saturday. I've used it maybe 4 to 5 hours a day since then, mostly with the 3D turned on.
I noticed last night that I'm starting to see "3D" things on my regular laptop display. Like for example if I look at several rows of text sometimes they briefly appear to be on different planes. One row of text will appear to be recessed, etc. It seems to especially happen when looking at windows with dark borders or drop shadows. It's a little concerning, enough to where I might leave the 3D stuff on my 3DS turned off for the time being.
The same thing happened to both me and my girlfriend (both got launch units) and it goes away eventually or I guess you just get used to it.